I'm being extraordinarily indecisive regarding my character this time around...
I was making a Master Summoner (he's pretty much already done)
But I keep thinking I'm just wasting my Eidolon. I started making him into a scout/skill monkey, but when I was asking one of the guys playing in the group what skills would be good for him to take, I am apparently walking over our Party Rogue who is playing a skill monkey.
I thought about making it into a mount, but that tempts me to get mounted feats and spend points on the ride skill - when at level 10 I can just get Aspect and fly myself anyway - or cast Phantom Steed.
Then I started evaluating my Master Summoner without the Eidolon, and I end up just being a Wizard with a poorer spell list, who uses the less useful Charisma as my casting stat who happens to be super awesome at one particular (awesome) spell line.
Now, the thing that attracted me to Master Summoner was the minute-per-level duration of the summons, and to a lesser extent, the standard action casting of Summons. (These are obviously the two things that set the summoner apart.)
But is it really worth giving up all of the Wizard spells I COULD have if I was just a Conjurer? I can still make nearly equal summons as a Conjurer - I'm guaranteed at least one summon monster casting per day with my specialization spell, and I acquire summon monsters at equal levels.
Also, the Familiar is starting to look BETTER than the half-powered Eidolon, in that it can deliver touch spells and still fulfill the role of scout - as well as activate spell trigger items with a simple feat. And even if the Familiar isn't better, I could always get that spontaneous daily cast from a bonded object...
Can I hear some arguments in favor of either class? I'm really on the edge here.
Some creative ways to use a half-powered Eidolon would help.
Hal powered edilion is useful, bu in combat you'll want to dismiss him most of the time anyway. For in combat the conjurers summon spells are plenty long, moreso if you use extend spell which I always do for several spells. Master summoner is useful and has that one really good trick, but wizards are better in my opinion.
Oh, and the familiar has it's uses, but the bonded object is fantastic. An extra spell at your highest spell level that you don't have to memorize. Plus the freedom to enchant an item without the feat. Rings are my favorite for this.
Making your Eidolon into a wand user is a good way not to step on anyone's toes. Whether or not you make wands yourself, you can have him running around buffing people. Casting vanish on the party rogue is great for extra sneak attacks, every melee likes a 4th level haste, and mage armor and shield are great for nearly anyone.
UMD skilled evolution and boosts to charisma for the eidolon make this viable at level 5ish when you could make your own wands anyway. Until then, you can give them knowledge your party doesnt have, or stuff like appraise or even go the minor magic route.
I'm not going to say which class is better. Both are extremely powerful classes.
What I will say, if you plan to make summoning your primary function, go with the Summoner. Summoning is great for wizards, but the full round casting is easily interrupted making it far more circumstantial.
So which you should play depends on how primary summoning is going to be in your bag of tricks.
P.S.
There is a summoner in one of my campaigns who has an Eidolon that buffs the party. That's something that everyone can get behind.
The other advantage of the Master Summoner over a Conjuration-specializing Wizard is that the former gets to use summon monster 5+Cha times a day. That's a heck of a lot of summonings, especially at lower levels. So if you're truly planning on having summoning as your primary offensive tool, that's a huge point in favor of the Master Summoner.
Augmented Summonings for free at second level, without prerequisites, is also quite nice.
I'm not going to say which class is better. Both are extremely powerful classes.
What I will say, if you plan to make summoning your primary function, go with the Summoner. Summoning is great for wizards, but the full round casting is easily interrupted making it far more circumstantial.
So which you should play depends on how primary summoning is going to be in your bag of tricks.
P.S.
There is a summoner in one of my campaigns who has an Eidolon that buffs the party. That's something that everyone can get behind.
How does he buff the party?
How does he buff the party?
I gave one example using wands.
I gave one example using wands.
How does he buff the party?
I figured all the good wands would be out of reach, price wise. Hmm.
How does he buff the party?
I don't see the abilities he was using on the list. Hmmm...methinks the player made some mistakes (he is inexperienced).
How about a reaching tripper? The whole party benefits from that. (unless you are an archery based party or something)
I figured all the good wands would be out of reach, price wise. Hmm.I gave one example using wands.
How does he buff the party?
Haste is a 2nd level spell so while not cheap, doable.
Enlarge Person is 750 gp.
You can also make a scary eidolon, pump up the intimidate skill by making it a class skill, skill focus: intimidate, and take skilled: intimidate evolution and maybe a boost to charisma. That alone will get your bonus to +16 at level one. It should be enough to auto intimidate any creature susceptible to it for quite some time. Everyone likes a decent debuffer now and again. Also good for interrogations and bar mitzvahs.
Well a conjurer can certainly bring a lot of versitility to a party with a wide range of different spells. Many of these spells will be not be availible to the summoner. There are also the types of conjurers (from APG) to consider too.
The summoner, on the other hand, can create a very useful eidolon or a large amount of cannon fodder.
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Take a Conjurer at lvl 8 with 20 Int, he can cast 18 spells per day (19 with bonded object) 3(4 w/BO) of lvl 4. A Master summoner lvl 8 with 20 Cha can cast 14 spells per day 3 of lvl 3, however he can also use his SLA 10 times to cast Summon Monster 4. That's 2-3 times the number of 4th lvl spells the conjurer can cast, plus that's starting to get into summoning outsiders than have SLA's of their own. I'm seeing MS as quite a bit more powerful than Conjurer...
Thanks everyone for the response.
Okay what's the party, what level are you starting at, what level do you see the campaign going to, how fast will you advance, what roles do you see as being needed covered by you, and what sources can you draw from/generation method?
Anything on the SRD that isn't 3rd party is game.
We've got a Sorcerer who's not very experienced - so he's a Halfling that's maxed out intimidation and his known spells are Feather Fall and Mage Armor. I KNOW he'd be upset if I made another Intimidator since that's kind of his only thing in combat.
We've got a Barbarian who does what a Barbarian does. He doesn't seem to have any plans for what CMs he's going to go into - but his main focus is damage.
The Rogue is doing the TWF thing, but she's got all the skills maxed out where she can too (INT is her second highest stat after DEX, with an STR of 10 - I'm thinking that she's probably going to be a skill monkey first and foremost.)
We have a paladin who is focusing on tripping as his CM. I think he should do Dirty Trick too, because that'd be awesome.
Finally we have a Magus - dervish dancer cookie cutter build.
I'm coming into this game a little late - they've already started and decided to invite me in to play. Everyone is already level 2.
I think that Summoning would be a good role for me to fill, but certainly the usual caster support role would be definitely helpful in this party of Big fighters and glass cannons with a skill monkey.
How does he buff the party?
I don't see the abilities he was using on the list. Hmmm...methinks the player made some mistakes (he is inexperienced).
How about a reaching tripper? The whole party benefits from that. (unless you are an archery based party or something)
I just talked to my Brother who's playing again about the UMD choice. When my Brother DMs, he has the party starving, with magic items and gold being a huge scarcity.
The current GM, who is my brother's friend, isn't as bad about the economy, but everyone in the group seems to like the idea that Magic is more rare than the in-your-face level the book has it. I'm not sure that a UMD character would be good.
As for the reaching tripper, I really like the idea. But, when I tried to make my cleric be a tripper (I started a cleric first before I started looking at Master Summoner) the Paladin felt like I was kind of walking on his turf...
Not that two trippers would be a bad thing, but it's kind of nice for everyone to feel unique I guess.
I think he'd prefer I picked a different CM. Looking at the Eidolon though, all the CMs I'd happily pick are guarded by dead feats (Improved Unarmed Combat) or by too high INT for the Eidolon to pull off (Combat expertise).
If there weren't already two full BAB characters in the group, I'd be tempted to be a fighter.
Take a Conjurer at lvl 8 with 20 Int, he can cast 18 spells per day (19 with bonded object) 3(4 w/BO) of lvl 4. A Master summoner lvl 8 with 20 Cha can cast 14 spells per day 3 of lvl 3, however he can also use his SLA 10 times to cast Summon Monster 4. That's 2-3 times the number of 4th lvl spells the conjurer can cast, plus that's starting to get into summoning outsiders than have SLA's of their own. I'm seeing MS as quite a bit more powerful than Conjurer...
That's a good point in favor of the Master Summoner - definitely not one I can argue with.
Again, thanks for the response. I think that I'm geared toward doing the Conjurer now considering my situation. I think that if I did go MS and play it effectively, I'd be taking up too much time on the table.
That 10 SLAs at effectively the highest casting level is amazing, unparalleled even, but it's only one trick for my pony. Further consideration makes me think the Conjurer is a better choice in this case.
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Summoning is the most versatile trick to have.
Have you considered making your Eidolon into a knowledge tutor? Considering your summoner has no real need for a high intelligence your Eidolon could be an imp or spirit of intellect.
Skilled: Knowledge is a perfectly viable strategy, and having your eidolon prattle off information about whatever monster/ancient artifact/local crime lord the party comes across might be incredibly useful.
Is the party rogue going to be a scout or a combat assassin?
If the rogue isn't going to shoot ahead of the party a small eidolon with the Skilled evolution and later flight can look for danger before the party has to enter the next room, (giving you a chance to summon the perfect monster).
Finally an Eidolon can always provide any member of the party with a +2 bonus to attack or AC just for being adjacent and succeeding at an attack roll vs AC 10 (hooray Aid Another).
I recommend Master Summoner because it's better at summoning, summons more and that eidolon is just icing :)