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So I've been obsessively reading the Spellslinger archetype in Ultimate Combat because I'm a steampunk junky like that, and noticed a neat little loophole (read "big loophole.")
The archetype's two signature abilities, arcane gun and mage bullets, don't actually require wizard spells - or even arcane spells - to use. Any casting class at all could take a level dip into Wizard and suddenly gain the ability to fire spells from a gun or sacrifice them for weapon abilities. Those abilities don't scale in power with the Wizard's level either, so that one level is all you need to get the full effectiveness of the Spellslinger abilities.
Is this useful? I have no idea. Is it awesome? Absolutely.
Don't suppose you could post the spellslinger with spoiler tags?
I have minor migrane, don't care about formatting right now, copypaste direct from PDF.
The spellslinger gains the Exotic
Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his
firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal onehanded
or two-handed firearms in the hands of others,
as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger
imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger’s hands, they
both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic.
At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to
have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger
chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired
through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a
×3 critical hit multiplier. A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts
through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if
any) is a bonus to the spell’s attack rolls or to the spell’s
saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this
method. If any of the spells’ attack rolls result in a natural
1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw
made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane
gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already
has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun
explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has
the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that
type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with
multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors
to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The
blast is centered on a single intersection within the
spellslinger’s space (spellslinger’s choice) and deals 1d6
points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage
per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast
other than the spellslinger can make a Ref lex saving throw
to halve the damage. The Ref lex save DC is calculated using
the spell level of the spell being sacrificed.
A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start
of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger
attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is
destroyed. This ability replaces arcane bond.
They replace Scribe Scroll with "Gunsmith" which gives them a gun.
A spellslinger is adept at transferring
spell energy into his arcane gun attacks. As a swift action, he
can sacrifice a spell and transform that energy into a weapon
bonus equal to the level of the spell sacrificed on a single barrel
of his firearm. With that weapon bonus the spellslinger can
apply any of the following to his arcane bond: enhancement
bonuses (up to +5) and dancing, defending, distance, f laming,
f laming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, merciful, seeking, shock,
shocking burst, spell storing, thundering, vicious, and wounding.
An arcane gun gains no benefit from having two of the same
weapon special abilities on the same barrel. The effect of
the mage bullets ability lasts for a number of minutes equal
to the level of the spell sacrificed, or until this
ability is used again to assign the barrel different
enhancements. This ability replaces cantrips,
but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and
read magic cantrips and places them in his
spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.
arcane guns is so great that a spellslinger forsakes four
schools of magic. These opposition schools are chosen at
1st level and cannot be changed later. A spellslinger who
prepares a spell from his opposition school must use two
spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. In addition, the
spellslinger takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made
when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his
opposition schools as a prerequisite. This ability replaces
arcane school.
Personally this archetype makes no sense to me in that you seem to give up a whole hell of a lot for mostly fluff. If someone could explain to my addled brain how this isn't a horrible trade off for basic fluff that with a flexible DM I could achieve without the AT please do.
It seems to me the big bonus here is the enhancement bonus to spell attack rolls and DCs.Personally this archetype makes no sense to me in that you seem to give up a whole hell of a lot for mostly fluff. If someone could explain to my addled brain how this isn't a horrible trade off for basic fluff that with a flexible DM I could achieve without the AT please do.
They poorly define "casting through the gun." Are they shooting the spells? If so, that may be ok for DC spells against something likely to make the save, but otherwise that blows. You are trading a touch attack or no attack for an attack vs normal AC.
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They poorly define "casting through the gun." Are they shooting the spells? If so, that may be ok for DC spells against something likely to make the save, but otherwise that blows. You are trading a touch attack or no attack for an attack vs normal AC.It seems to me the big bonus here is the enhancement bonus to spell attack rolls and DCs.Personally this archetype makes no sense to me in that you seem to give up a whole hell of a lot for mostly fluff. If someone could explain to my addled brain how this isn't a horrible trade off for basic fluff that with a flexible DM I could achieve without the AT please do.
Don't Guns hit touch at the first increment still?
I do a question about it - do you need a free hand to cast the spells and then shoot them through the gun, or can you use your gun hand instead?
This archetype does lose out on quite a bit, but I think it's still viable if you one-level dip with Gunslinger and then go Eldritch Knight the rest of the way. You don't even really need to pump your Wisdom too much, since Amateur Gunslinger becomes Extra Grit when you take that level.
As for a one-level dip into Spellslinger - technically it's legal, but I can see it not being within the intent of the class, even though it's a huge benefit. The assumption with Pathfinder seems to be avoiding multiclassing - I think the Synthesist summoner makes this assumption too. Personally, I wouldn't take the one level dip, just because having the vestigal first level wizard spells at caster level 1 to worry about bothers me. (Though I guess I could just prepare Feather Fall in all of those slots and not have to worry about falling ever.)
I do think this may have been served better as a magus archetype, though.
The assumption with Pathfinder seems to be avoiding multiclassing -
Having seen the benefits of a single level dip in Crossblooded Sorcerer vs. taking it as an actual Sorcerer, I dont know this is true anymore.
EDIT: Further looking at those spoilers, it totally seems like it'd be much smarter to go Spellslinger 1/Noncrippledspellcasterclass X
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Yea, I'm sure it wasn't the intent to make these abilities work with any spells. It was probably supposed to read something like "wizard spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a x3 critical multiplier" and "...he can sacrifice a wizard spell and transform that energy into a weapon bonus..."
Despite the obvious lack of intent, I'll still allow it to function with other arcane casters in my games. It just seems right that sorcerers should have a gun-mage-esque ability and after reading China Mieville's Iron Council, the idea of a witch-sniper seems too cool, although that may be better served by its own archetype. Then of course, the magus would do well with gun-mage powers (you can already kind of pull that off with the myrmidarch archetype though).
Yea, I'm sure it wasn't the intent to make these abilities work with any spells. It was probably supposed to read something like "wizard spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a x3 critical multiplier" and "...he can sacrifice a wizard spell and transform that energy into a weapon bonus..."
Despite the obvious lack of intent, I'll still allow it to function with other arcane casters in my games. It just seems right that sorcerers should have a gun-mage-esque ability and after reading China Mieville's Iron Council, the idea of a witch-sniper seems too cool, although that may be better served by its own archetype. Then of course, the magus would do well with gun-mage powers (you can already kind of pull that off with the myrmidarch archetype though).
I have no problem allowing it to work with divine spells as well... Gun Priests anyone?
Don't Guns hit touch at the first increment still?They poorly define "casting through the gun." Are they shooting the spells? If so, that may be ok for DC spells against something likely to make the save, but otherwise that blows. You are trading a touch attack or no attack for an attack vs normal AC.It seems to me the big bonus here is the enhancement bonus to spell attack rolls and DCs.Personally this archetype makes no sense to me in that you seem to give up a whole hell of a lot for mostly fluff. If someone could explain to my addled brain how this isn't a horrible trade off for basic fluff that with a flexible DM I could achieve without the AT please do.
Oh right. Probably yeah. I don't think Robinson is on the right track at all because I think the Magus normally "casts" spells through his sword - by hitting people with it. I suppose it's ok that way if guns still hit touch AC.
Seems to me this is all just a neat, updated way to build the sort of gunmages previously seen in the Iron Kingdoms setting.
If that answers anybody's question about why it's all so fluffy...
Seems to me this is all just a neat, updated way to build the sort of gunmages previously seen in the Iron Kingdoms setting.
If that answers anybody's question about why it's all so fluffy...
I personally think this works much better than the Gunmage in the IKRPG, personally.
I'm pretty pysched that at this point, you can pretty much run Iron Kingdoms strait out of Pathfinder as of Ultimate Combat, with almost no conversion on the player side.
I think the utility is you are firing the spell through the gun, which means you're going to have a much longer range. A two-handed long gun has a 40 to 80 foot range. Most rays and ranged touch spells have a range of close, or 25ft + 5/2 levels. That means firing through the gun seriously increases your range. An arcane sniper with a rifle could hit up to what, 800 feet away with a close range spell? And you get to add any enhancement bonuses to it. Note that that includes the ones you sacrificed a spell for. So, you could sacrifice a spell to enhance it to +3, and then get a +3 to hit that guy at 800 feet.
The description does not mention that the spells use anything from the gun except for 1)the critical multiplier for spells with attack rolls, 2)the enhancement bonus for spell attack rolls or DCs. Nothing else from the gun is mentioned, it doesn't say it uses the range of the weapon or anything like that.If you want to extend the range of a spell then you must still rely on increased caster levels or the reach spell metamagic feat as before.
It also makes no mention of spells applying the enhanced properties of the gun, which means a gun with flaming property that is used to cast scorching ray does not get an additional 1d6 fire damage.
You might be able to get a DM to houserule that any spells cast through the gun use its range, but you might also requrie a normal attack roll as opposed to touch to balance the extra range.
*shrug*
You can interpret it however you want of course. To me, if I fire something through a gun, I'm firing it through the gun. I'm using the gun's range, enhancements, etc. I think honestly it's a poorly written section, as it doesn't address any of this one way or the other. Either it's horribly underpowered and useless, or it's balanced out and you use ranged touch for the first range increment and fire the spell the range based on the gun (taking into account range penalties, etc).
Questions about the archetype :
When firing a spell through the gun, am I also firing the gun? Does it do it's normal weapon damage and the spell, or is it either/or?
Do I use the spell's range or the gun's?
If I use a two-handed gun, does the gun negate somatic components? If not, how do I fire the spell without still spell?
If I do use the gun's range, and I fire a cone spell, does the cone start wherever I'm aiming for? or does the cone get lost and it only hit's one target (which seems to be implied)?
EDIT : I actually assumed it was like an Arcane Archer, the spell get's put into the arrow (bullet in this case) and fired. So you hit or miss with the bullet and do the spell as well, which makes it work like the magus's weapon. But as I said, it's not clear one way or the other.
All I gotta say: Read the FAQ. Paizo specifically stated that Class Features which boost things like spellcasting apply to all spell you cast, not just from the Class that granted that feature. I don´t like that ruling, and it seems to clash with the assumption that abilities referencing level by default pertain only to that class´ level, but that´s the official FAQ.
For a Sorceror Spellslinger, rather than dip in Wizard, I would just apply the Archetype to the Sorceror and remove the normal Bloodline completely. I might customize it by adding Bonus Spells (appropriate to Spellslinger flavor) to match the ones removed, along with appropriate Bonus Feat list (gunslinging/ranged feats I would say).
All I gotta say: Read the FAQ. Paizo specifically stated that Class Features which boost things like spellcasting apply to all spell you cast, not just from the Class that granted that feature. I don´t like that ruling, and it seems to clash with the assumption that abilities referencing level by default pertain only to that class´ level, but that´s the official FAQ.
For a Sorceror Spellslinger, rather than dip in Wizard, I would just apply the Archetype to the Sorceror and remove the normal Bloodline completely. I might customize it by adding Bonus Spells (appropriate to Spellslinger flavor) to match the ones removed, along with appropriate Bonus Feat list (gunslinging/ranged feats I would say).
I honestly think the more relevant question is not "Does this work?" and is in fact, "Is this what was intended?"
Personally, I think its great that Bards/Inquisitors/Clerics/Oracles/Sorcerers/etc. can emulate a gun using archetype effectively with a one level dip. It could be a LOT of fun.
You just have to look at all the other Class Abilities that FAQ applies to, and this one working doesn´t seem out of whack at all, even if I don´t like it. I have no problem with having other ¨Gun Casters¨ but doing it thru a Wizard dip is dead stupid. The Sorceror ´Spellslinger´ Bloodline-replacement Archetype is pretty simple to do, the other classes not so much.
Unhuh, Call it dead Stupid when my Synthesist/SpellSlinger summons his nightmares by shooting his head
Edit: Also, Eldritch heritage Arcane Bond the Pistol, Shabaam!
I see someone has played Persona 3
I think the Wizard archetypes are the only thing in the book so far to make me a little sad. I like the ideas presented and I actually enjoy most of them until you reach the "X Specialization" of each entry. I already preferred Generalists wizards before pathfinder gave them a super mega kick in the sack for school powers compared to a specialist. However having to give up 3-4 schools of magic for flavorful applications of magic to fit a theme is a bit on the overkill side. If they had left it at having to give up 2 that would have been perfect, but imo having to ditch 4 schools to be a gunmage kinda hurts a lot.
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Is it really giving up schools? I had the impression it was just like `opposed` schools, which took 2x spell slots... Leaving you well able to cast those spells, not to mention that self-crafting wands of them bypasses the 2x slots, and you have no problem using scrolls either. Your Bonded Item can also recall any one spell, regardless of spell school.
Another wierd of repurcussion unspecified class abilities boosting spellcasting applying to everything, regardless of which class it comes from:
A wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of magic must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell....
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. ...
The bolded parts don`t apply to only Wizard Casting Progression slots, though the first DOES only apply to prepared spells (Magus, Cleric, Druid), and the second only works with spells `in the wizard`s spellbook` (Magus spellbooks are usable interchangeably as Wizard spellbooks). So that brings up some interesting options for Magus` who take a 1 level Wizard dip. I`m not so sure about a Wizard1/ClericX scribing spells that are both Cleric and Wizard spells into the Wizard spell-book, and then cast them in their high spell level Cleric slots... I think that runs into a `divine scrolls/spells are different than arcane` issue... But that doesn`t really apply to Magii/Wizards.
Something I still can't quite wrap my head around is what happens when a spellslinger casts a spell that requires both a ranged touch attack to hit and a saving throw through his gun, such as disintegrate? do you only apply the bonus to either to hit or the save? if so which one?