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Not sure that this is where this thread should go.
But I urge the powers that be at Paizo to make all free PDFs, such as the ones you get from having a subscription, available as soon as the product is released and without waiting for the processing of the order which it is a part of.
I just realized that, by adding some additional products to the pending order I had for Ultimate Combat, I postponed my being able to download its free PDF that I am entitled to as a subscriber. And I just do not know when I will be able to get it, while at the very same time other subscribers are already commenting on their most recent acquisition.
This strikes me as plain silly.
At the very least, there should be a notice when you add products to a pending order that doing so will likely result in an additional delay in getting the free PDF if you are a subscriber.
But really all free PDFs should be sent at the same time to all customers entitled to them. And if there is something in the current procedure of preparing/billing/sending that prevents this, then said procedure should be changed.
But really all free PDFs should be sent at the same time to all customers entitled to them. And if there is something in the current procedure of preparing/billing/sending that prevents this, then said procedure should be changed.
It's even worse when you end a subscription. I wasn't able to download the PDF, but they had already taken away my subscription bonus from the Paizo store.
Not only is this unfair towards the customer, it's also bad from a business point of view. Instead of buying more stuff from their store, I just got it somewhere else on the internet because I was annoyed.
Keep in mind that this subscription run was for a LOT of products and a hardback product (which increases our order volume). When we run the shipment processing, it then charges your card for the product, then we prepare the shipment to go out. We cannot grant PDF access for everyone at the same time, because not everyone has been charged by the system yet.
Adding something to an order isn't what it takes to move you in queue. It doesn't help necessarily, but it's based on several factors.
I'm still waiting too, and all I have are subscriptions on the order. They get through them all as fast as they can, but due to the sheer number, it takes a few days. This same request comes up just about every single month when someone has to wait. The system is set to queue of when an order is processed, as that is when it is charged, and it triggers the subscriber's PDF. It has been since the first AP rolled off the line a few years back.
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The only fair way they'd be able to give them to everybody at once would be hold them until release day after all subscriptions have gone out. If they give them to everyone at the beginning they would have to charge, which they can't until it ships. I find myself all over the place when it comes to when my shipments go out and as much as I'd like to glance at my PDFs right away, I'd rather everything go as smoothly as possible for Paizo.
I also remember what happened when the Core Rulebook PDF was held and everyone given access at once ... I also remember the site being down for quite a while.
And the other big problem is people who DL the PDF then cancel the order for the hard copy before it ships.
You only get the free PDF (and its FREE!!!) when your dead tree edition ships.
Hey, you're getting something for free, but you have to wait a day or three to get it...if you want it that badly, either buy it up front, or ask paizo to split your order and pay the extra S&H so that the item you want ships separately.
And I have to repeat this...
It's FREE! (Why is this a problem?)
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But really all free PDFs should be sent at the same time to all customers entitled to them. And if there is something in the current procedure of preparing/billing/sending that prevents this, then said procedure should be changed.
I guess the question should be: When are customers entitled to the PDFs? I'd say that occurs when the customer is charged for them.
Now, when should the customer get charged for them? When Paizo is fulfilling the order, seem to be the right answer for that.
So, if you're ordering a PDF not part of a subscription of yours, I presume you get charged right away. Your access should be pretty much right away. The PDF order can be fulfilled as soon as the software's queue can handle it.
But for a subscription item, I don't want Paizo charging me until they've got my order in hand, packing up, and getting ready to go. If that means I can't get the PDFs at the same time as the first subscriber's card number is run through the machine and his order is packed up, I can live with it.
I would also like to point out that the release date on this set of PDFs is August 4th. That's next Thursday.
If you're getting it before next Thursday, it's EARLY. Some people might get it earlier than others, but as long as you have it by the 4th, it's still a bonus.
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I must admit that I was hoping for some description of the actual process so that we could put our creative minds to finding a solution to improve it.
There should be a way to "freeze" an order (ie no cancelling possible) and bill it before it is actually shipped, for example as soon as you get access to part of the order (such as the free PDF).
This would also stop those who cancel their order for the printed book after getting the PDF for free (which, to me, is akin to theft).
And the problem is not having to wait for the product. It is having to wait several days for it while other people already have it, with nothing justifying such a difference, apart from issues of organisation which can usually be improved.
There should be a way to "freeze" an order (ie no cancelling possible) and bill it before it is actually shipped, for example as soon as you get access to part of the order (such as the free PDF).
This though, right here is the biggest problem. Though some vendors may ignore credit card stipulations, Paizo has actually shown themselves to be pretty much straight shooters in terms of following not only the letter of a requirements as the intent. Part of the agreement a merchant signs onto for being able to use credit card payments is that you will not charge for a service/product until you provide it/ship it. Some companies will ignore/waive that restriction, but Paizo has said they will not, and I applaud them for it.
Chief Technical Officer
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There should be a way to "freeze" an order (ie no cancelling possible) and bill it before it is actually shipped, for example as soon as you get access to part of the order (such as the free PDF).
This though, right here is the biggest problem. Though some vendors may ignore credit card stipulations, Paizo has actually shown themselves to be pretty much straight shooters in terms of following not only the letter of a requirements as the intent. Part of the agreement a merchant signs onto for being able to use credit card payments is that you will not charge for a service/product until you provide it/ship it. Some companies will ignore/waive that restriction, but Paizo has said they will not, and I applaud them for it.
Also, telling a customer you can't cancel an order that hasn't actually shipped is A) pretty lousy and B) just going to make the customer refuse or return the item when it does ship anyway.
Also, telling a customer you can't cancel an order that hasn't actually shipped is A) pretty lousy and B) just going to make the customer refuse or return the item when it does ship anyway.
Indeed. That's why in such a case of abuse (which can be very easily detected), you simply charge the customer with the price of the PDF. Problem solved.
Don't punish the majority of good customers because some people try to cheat.
Also, telling a customer you can't cancel an order that hasn't actually shipped is A) pretty lousy and B) just going to make the customer refuse or return the item when it does ship anyway.Indeed. That's why in such a case of abuse (which can be very easily detected), you simply charge the customer with the price of the PDF. Problem solved.
Don't punish the majority of good customers because some people try to cheat.
You are still ignoring the part where they would have to violate their agreement with the credit card companies to do so.
Paizo has a system in place that works. In the grand scheme of things getting the PDF in +/- 2 days from other subscribers really doesn't matter. In a few days everyone will be bickering about the content instead of why they don't have their PDF yet.
If it makes everyone feel better, I haven't even glanced at my Ultimate Combat PDF yet. On the other hand, Goblins of Golarion is amazing.
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It's even worse when you end a subscription. I wasn't able to download the PDF, but they had already taken away my subscription bonus from the Paizo store.Not only is this unfair towards the customer, it's also bad from a business point of view. Instead of buying more stuff from their store, I just got it somewhere else on the internet because I was annoyed.
The only reason this occurred on your account is the crazy two-APs-shipping-at-once and canceling the subscription between two volumes that were shipping at the same time. The need to use the discount in this type of situation (between the point when the order was generated and the subscription was canceled and the point when the order was shipped) has never once come up as an issue before to customer service. We had no idea that it was even a problem.
Generally speaking, when a customer feels that they are supposed to be getting a discount for an order they wish to place and it isn't showing up or they are worried about it not showing up, they contact customer service and let us know. Customer Service then works to the best of our ability to make sure that the customer gets the order discount if they should be qualifying for it, or we explain why the order does not qualify.
Had I know you wanted to place an order and used your about-to-expire-Advantage discount on it, I would have made sure that anything shipped with your pending Adventure Path or any Paizo PDFs you ordered before the last subscription item shipped would recieve the AP discount.
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Also, telling a customer you can't cancel an order that hasn't actually shipped is A) pretty lousy and B) just going to make the customer refuse or return the item when it does ship anyway.
There should be a way to "freeze" an order (ie no cancelling possible) and bill it before it is actually shipped, for example as soon as you get access to part of the order (such as the free PDF).
This though, right here is the biggest problem. Though some vendors may ignore credit card stipulations, Paizo has actually shown themselves to be pretty much straight shooters in terms of following not only the letter of a requirements as the intent. Part of the agreement a merchant signs onto for being able to use credit card payments is that you will not charge for a service/product until you provide it/ship it. Some companies will ignore/waive that restriction, but Paizo has said they will not, and I applaud them for it.
IMO, as soon as Paizo gives you access to the PDF, they are indeed providing the product (even if only part of it) and thus should be able to charge for it in full compliance with credit card stipulations.
I understand that a customer should be able to cancel an order before he benefits from it. However, what is the chance of such a thing happening in the few days between the PDF being made available to other customers and his order being shipped ? Has it in fact ever happened ?
We are not talking about cancelling an order in advance here.
Let's imagine that my order was the first to be shipped. I would have my PDF right away and I would not be able to cancel the order. This on Tuesday.
We are currently on Thursday. It is only because of the time required to do the RL steps of processing my order and shipping it that I do not have my PDF already and that I still have the ability to cancel my order. Honestly, what is the chance that I will take advantage of this to actually cancel it ?
I am quite ready to sign any document exonerating Paizo of whatever is required (like waiving my right to cancel after Tuesday) so that they charge me as soon as the PDF is made available to any customer and I get access to it right away.
The irony I feel is that by aiming to please the customer base by giving them a few days more when they can cancel their order, Paizo is in truth frustrating them by having them wait with no discernable reason, since the PDF is already available to other customers who did nothing special.
I even wonder if a case cannot be made that this constitutes unlawful discrimination between customers. Not that I would ever want anyone to make such a case, but we were just talking about observing the common rules of business and trade.
PS : Vic, I thank you, as well as all of Paizo staff, for being so willing to answer our queries and intervene on the boards. It is a very important factor in my continuing (and increasing) willingness to spend my money on your products.
The need to use the discount in this type of situation (between the point when the order was generated and the subscription was canceled and the point when the order was shipped) has never once come up as an issue before to customer service. We had no idea that it was even a problem.
Luckily, now that you are aware this is a problem you can take steps to fix it, so it won't happen to other people.
I'm still interested in Paizo products, I just not a big fan of oriental adventures, that's why I canceled the sub for the moment.
The irony I feel is that by aiming to please the customer base by giving them a few days more when they can cancel their order, Paizo is in truth frustrating them by having them wait with no discernable reason, since the PDF is already available to other customers who did nothing special.
I even wonder if a case cannot be made that this constitutes unlawful discrimination between customers. Not that I would ever want anyone to make such a case, but we were just talking about observing the common rules of business and trade.
We can only hope that at one point they realize that it's a bad thing to punish the majority of good customers just because a small minority might abuse it.
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I just had the idea of another possible solution :
- Charge the subscriber the price of the PDF (and make it available at once) when it is released (here : Tuesday).
- Charge the rest of the order's price when it is shipped.
This way, the total cost stays the same AND the subscribers all get their PDF at the same time.
Also the customer still has the right to cancel his order that has not yet been shipped but has already paid for the PDF in case he does cancel (ie, no free PDF if he doesn't actually pay for the printed book).
Hope this helps.
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I think things are ok the way they are. I feel lucky to get the free pdf and the discount.
The PDF is free.
The rules are clear and upfront.
I can understand disappointment, but it's hardly "unfair" that they give you something they gave someone else yesterday.
I just had the idea of another possible solution :
- Charge the subscriber the price of the PDF (and make it available at once) when it is released (here : Tuesday).
- Charge the rest of the order's price when it is shipped.
This way, the total cost stays the same AND the subscribers all get their PDF at the same time.
Also the customer still has the right to cancel his order that has not yet been shipped but has already paid for the PDF in case he does cancel (ie, no free PDF if he doesn't actually pay for the printed book).
Hope this helps.
Leaving aside the difficulty of implementation (of which I'm clueless). I think that's a good suggested solution to people's frustrations.
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I just had the idea of another possible solution :
- Charge the subscriber the price of the PDF (and make it available at once) when it is released (here : Tuesday).
- Charge the rest of the order's price when it is shipped.
This way, the total cost stays the same AND the subscribers all get their PDF at the same time.
Also the customer still has the right to cancel his order that has not yet been shipped but has already paid for the PDF in case he does cancel (ie, no free PDF if he doesn't actually pay for the printed book).
Hope this helps.
Aside from the fact that this would cause Paizo's servers to crash every hardcover RPG subscriber release day... (I also remember the Core release. It wasn't pretty.)
Why wouldn't people who just want the PDF do this? I can't afford the RPG sub at this moment as I'm moving overseas, but if I can manage it, I'm going to get the PDF. The PDF is released on the same day as the book is to non-subscribers. The reason they do that is to not piss off the retail chain any more than they do (however unfair the stagnant brick-and-mortar business is). Now suddenly everyone who wants the PDF can temporarily subscribe, get the PDF, then cancel their order. There's actually no reason to wait. So then Paizo might as well just drag the PDF release date back to the day they start shipping. Which comes back to the whole "pissing off the FLGS" issue.
The PDF has a release date. You should be thankful that you get it before then, for free! I just don't understand this sense of entitlement that you can't wait for a couple of days. I'm impatient to see UC as well (I miss my sub already!) but it's not going to kill me to wait a little longer.
I just don't understand this sense of entitlement that you can't wait for a couple of days.
I guess that comes from Paizo not stating that they don't treat all the customers equally. Even if the reason for this lies in the procedural details of shipping and charging, it sucks when other people discuss content from the same item you bought in the same subscription, but cannot yet read.
That 'sense of entitlement' is very justified - because your dollars aren't worth any less than those of the guy who got his copy on tuesday.
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I just don't understand this sense of entitlement that you can't wait for a couple of days.I guess that comes from Paizo not stating that they don't treat all the customers equally. Even if the reason for this lies in the procedural details of shipping and charging, it sucks when other people discuss content from the same item you bought in the same subscription, but cannot yet read.
That 'sense of entitlement' is very justified - because your dollars aren't worth any less than those of the guy who got his copy on tuesday.
One day you will be the one who gets the PDF a day early, another day you will be the one who gets it a day later. I've been through both a lot of times and I never pay any attention to the fact that Ravingdork or TOZ or whoever has his/her PDF 2 days before me. Maybe my ego and sense of entitlement isn't big enough, dunno.
ALSO, if all subscribers would get the PDF at the same point, and I would wake up on Tuesday morning to discover that all those thousands of American customers hit d/l at roughly same time and took the server down, I would be mighty p'd off - not only would I be unable to download my stuff, but I also wouldn't be able to read spoiler threads and vent my frustration on the forum.
It somewhat happened back at Core Rulebook release, so thankyouverymuch, not again.
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I just don't understand this sense of entitlement that you can't wait for a couple of days.I guess that comes from Paizo not stating that they don't treat all the customers equally. Even if the reason for this lies in the procedural details of shipping and charging, it sucks when other people discuss content from the same item you bought in the same subscription, but cannot yet read.
That 'sense of entitlement' is very justified - because your dollars aren't worth any less than those of the guy who got his copy on tuesday.
... They DO treat every customer equally. They've explained their shipping processes multiple times, which align to the laws around card transactions. Nobody is exempt from this system.
It's simply not physically possible to ship things faster than they do. Even if splitting the charge (as mentioned above) would actually be possible, and somehow I doubt it, you aren't purchasing the PDF. You get it for free when your subscription copy ships. This is stated from the outset.
"As a subscriber benefit, we'll throw in a FREE PDF of each product that you'll be able to download immediately after we ship your subscriber copy."
It's got nothing to do with your money being "lesser". I don't even understand the mindset. You signed up for the subscription that says you can download a PDF after your copy ships.
And as Gorbacz said, sometimes you'll get yours early, sometimes you'll get yours late. And sure, it sucks a bit. But what is a day or two, really?
... They DO treat every customer equally. They've explained their shipping processes multiple times
So they treat everyone equally, but the reason that some customers have to wait (are not treated equally) are procedural details of shipping and charging? What?
You contradict yourself.
It's simply not physically possible to ship things faster than they do.
Seriously? Not physically possible? Could it be you are just using hyperbole, maybe?
But what is a day or two, really?
It's your prerogative to assign a value of 0 to your time.
For me, the difference was that I had lost my subscription benefits already but they didn't fulfill their part of the transaction. Sara Marie stated above that they didn't even realize that this is a problem until I complained.
So yes. I don't agree with you. But you don't have to understand that.
Pssst Malaclypse. I'll give you a pro tip. If you want to win support for your cause, you might want to adjust your attitude a little.
Care to elaborate?
The PDF isn't free.. it's either a purchase on it's own or part of another purchase.The PDF is free.
The rules are clear and upfront.I can understand disappointment, but it's hardly "unfair" that they give you something they gave someone else yesterday.
OK, here's the big question for the OP. Are you someone who gets the PDF for free as part of the AP subscription? Or are you purchasing it as just the PDF?
For those who get it as part of the subscription, it is free...they can't charge you for it first because they aren't chargig for it at all, it's part of the package that comes with the dead tree edition...
The PDF isn't free.. it's either a purchase on it's own or part of another purchase.The PDF is free.
The rules are clear and upfront.I can understand disappointment, but it's hardly "unfair" that they give you something they gave someone else yesterday.
The PDF we subscribers get is free. We sign up for it in advance and in exchange for that precomitment we get to buy the book early, we get a discount and we get the free PDF.
So they treat everyone equally, but the reason that some customers have to wait (are not treated equally) are procedural details of shipping and charging? What?
You contradict yourself.
Do you also feel slighted when you have to wait in line at a store, because other people got there first?
Heaven knows how unfair it is when I pull into the gas station to fill up, and there's other cars getting gas before me.
There are restrictions on charging you for merchandise prior to it being shipped.
It's ludicrous to expect a redesign the entire purchasing and shipping system so that you can get your free side-benefit a couple days earlier.
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Pssst Malaclypse. I'll give you a pro tip. If you want to win support for your cause, you might want to adjust your attitude a little.Care to elaborate?
I can take this one!
Your tone is vitriolic. Saying things like "Seriously? Not physically possible?" and "It's your prerogative to assign a value of 0 to your time." do not help people to walk away from a conversation with a positive outlook regarding their interaction with you. As such, they are less inclined to advocate on your behalf or on behalf of the point you are trying to make.
I think that might be what Gorbacz meant.
The irony I feel is that by aiming to please the customer base by giving them a few days more when they can cancel their order, Paizo is in truth frustrating them by having them wait with no discernable reason, since the PDF is already available to other customers who did nothing special.
Add me to the list of people not frustrated at all, and quite happy with how things work.
I even wonder if a case cannot be made that this constitutes unlawful discrimination between customers. Not that I would ever want anyone to make such a case, but we were just talking about observing the common rules of business and trade.
Exactly what group or category would you be in (and that other subscribers would not be in) that would be receiving prejudicial treatment from Paizo?
I would absolutely LOVE to see how someone would even begin to define their supposed discrimination in this situation.
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Pssst Malaclypse. I'll give you a pro tip. If you want to win support for your cause, you might want to adjust your attitude a little.Care to elaborate?I can take this one!
Your tone is vitriolic. Saying things like "Seriously? Not physically possible?" and "It's your prerogative to assign a value of 0 to your time." do not help people to walk away from a conversation with a positive outlook regarding their interaction with you. As such, they are less inclined to advocate on your behalf or on behalf of the point you are trying to make.
I think that might be what Gorbacz meant.
Pretty much.
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I even wonder if a case cannot be made that this constitutes unlawful discrimination between customers. Not that I would ever want anyone to make such a case, but we were just talking about observing the common rules of business and trade.Exactly what group or category would you be in (and that other subscribers would not be in) that would be receiving prejudicial treatment from Paizo?
I would absolutely LOVE to see how someone would even begin to define their supposed discrimination in this situation.
I know this one! They're discriminating against people who aren't subscribers by not giving them free PDFs.
Wait... what?
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Also not worried about it, here. I've been the guy waiting, and I've been one of the first to get my pdf. It all comes out the same. They combine your orders at times to make sure that you pay less in shipping, and will un-combine orders if you ask them to do so.
To give an example, think about Apple. There's basically no company bigger or more popular than Apple, and when they release a new product, people pre-order 2 months in advance and stand in line for 2 days to get it as quickly as possible. But still (fulfillment/product distribution being a process that moves linearly in time), there's always a person who gets it first, and many more people who don't get it first, or second, or third. If you consider that model, and then further consider that this is the RPG industry and not a multibillion dollar tech business...
Saying things like "Seriously? Not physically possible?" and "It's your prerogative to assign a value of 0 to your time." do not help people to walk away from a conversation with a positive outlook regarding their interaction with you. As such, they are less inclined to advocate on your behalf or on behalf of the point you are trying to make.
I don't need her to advocate on my behalf, I simply didn't like her implication that two days are negligible, and her hyperbole regards physical possibilities. I don't want to talk down to her by explaining in detail that it is, indeed, physically possible to ship faster. So I use her own words to show her how silly that statement is. I'm not sure why you think this is such a bad thing and why you assign so much negativity to my statements.
Do you also feel slighted when you have to wait in line at a store, because other people got there first?
If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier. But what could I have done differently regarding my subscription to have it shipped on time? Please explain this to me.
To give an example, think about Apple.
You don't have to wait for digital goods. And that's what the PDF is. Physical goods are something different, and I really don't care if my book is shipped two days earlier or later - unless in this case, where they delay access to the PDF because of that.
In the App Store, you don't have to wait until you can download Lion, or Final Cut Pro, or whatever. Bad example.
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If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier. But what could I have done differently regarding my subscription to have it shipped on time? Please explain this to me.
Nothing. There is nothing you can do.
Nor is there anything I can do.
The orders are not processed with regard to any individual poster. They are processed by the system according to its program, and according to the manual processing the employees do.
There is no bias in any of it.
Edit: Also, what do you call 'on time'? Because I don't think there is a specific shipping date. Which is why they tell you 'sometime in the next week'.
You don't have to wait for digital goods. And that's what the PDF is. Physical goods are something different, and I really don't care if my book is shipped two days earlier or later - unless in this case, where they delay access to the PDF because of that.In the App Store, you don't have to wait until you can download Lion, or Final Cut Pro, or whatever. Bad example.
And if you were just ordering a digital product, that would be true. But you're not. The processing of your digital product is dependent on the processing of your physical product because that's the nature of the subscription.
The complaints people can raise when they're getting free stuff amaze me.
I don't want to talk down to her by explaining in detail that it is, indeed, physically possible to ship faster. So I use her own words to show her how silly that statement is. I'm not sure why you think this is such a bad thing and why you assign so much negativity to my statements.
Because you so easily allowed yourself to get dragged on to side topics in order to "score points" and prove you're smarter/better/cooler than someone else, instead of spending that effort in stating your case in such a way that it might actually convince Paizo, or anyone else for that matter, that you might have a legitimate point.
So far, you have managed to thoroughly convince everyone in the thread -- right or wrong -- that your points, and by extension the OP's, amount to little more than a spoiled tantrum. I'm not sure that's actually true, but that is how it comes across.
I'm sorry to be so direct, but I assumed your question was not rhetorical, and that you actually wanted a straight answer.
Edit: Also, what do you call 'on time'? Because I don't think there is a specific shipping date. Which is why they tell you 'sometime in the next week'.
I guess you didn't read the whole thread. The point is that they took away my subscriber benefits two days before they actually made the PDF available.
Because you so easily allowed yourself to get dragged on to side topics in order to "score points" and prove you're smarter/better/cooler than someone else
Please don't generalize from yourself (or from whomever you got these ideas from) to me.
Thanks.
So far, you have managed to convince everyone in the thread -- right or wrong -- that your complaint amounts to little more than a spoiled tantrum.
Oh, you speak for everyone? Good to know. But please stop the insults. Spoiled tantrum? Is that really necessary?
If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier.
So it's OK that the store discriminates against you based on your punctuality?
I guess you didn't read the whole thread. The point is that they took away my subscriber benefits two days before they actually made the PDF available.
And as they pointed out, it was an accident, and they rectified it. Mistakes happen. Good companies fix them.
So, basically, from what I'm gathering, the point is you want to play the victim still?
If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier.So it's OK that the store discriminates against you based on your punctuality?
Indeed. You are using a flawed analogy.
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Indeed. You are using a flawed analogy.If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier.So it's OK that the store discriminates against you based on your punctuality?
Actually, I'm outright mocking the suggestion of discrimination.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, I'm outright mocking the suggestion of discrimination.Indeed. You are using a flawed analogy.If I have to wait in line at a store, it's most likely my fault because I could have been there earlier.So it's OK that the store discriminates against you based on your punctuality?
quite amusingly in fact :-)