Yeah, I don`t know what your chances for `official` response is...
But I would say: Shadow Evocation is itself Illusion, right?
The only thing the targets are being affected by is Illusion magic, and no other school, right?
So why wouldn`t the Illusion-based DC apply? Unless a spell is EXTREMELY, UTTERLY specific that some general spell-casting mechanic doesn`t apply, I would not remove something like the School-dependent DC bonus. The spell wording never says the Save is based on the `emulated` school, so again, if something isn`t changed: you default to the standard rule. The exact quote is:
...and I would say it`s pretty clear that the ONLY thing discussed there is the spell level component of the DC, i.e. instead of the emulated spell`s actual level. The other spell isn`t actually happening, and it`s School is never evoked (just it`s EFFECT), it`s just that Shadow Evocation gives you 2 saves: 1 Will to dis-believe, and 1 to reduce `the normal effect of the spell`, both Saves are from an Illusion school spell. It doesn`t even further discuss the `emulated spell`s` Saving Throw in other detail, so I don`t see any reason to pull in qualities of a `school`. Your paraphrasing `sets the DC to that of a regular fireball` is NOT accurate per the rules: it never states the DC is what that spell would NORMALLY be if you cast it, it ONLY is talking about using the spell level. The type of Save (Reflex, Fort, Will if that exists for a damaging Evocation) is presumably part and parcel of the effect of the spell, but nothing in the RAW would make me say `I shouldn`t apply Spell Focus: Illusion, but should apply Spell Focus: Evocation if I have it`.
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Short answer Yes.
Long answer: No matter what spell you are emulating with Shadow Evocation, ultimately it is a spell with the Illusion [Shadow] Descriptor. Spell Focus Illusion definitely increases the spell's Save DC. No matter what save the emulated spell calls for. All a "Spell Focus" feat needs to know is the school of the spell written in the school line.
First of all, of course they can be disassociated.
I found your example wierd in that most players never know the DCs of Saves they must make.
But it any case, (repeating myself now) the spell DOESN`T tell you to use the same save as the spell it`s simulating... That`s your own invention.
It only replicates the effect and allows any Save the spell allows.
Saving Throws themselves don`t have Magic Schools, SPELLS do. The simulated spell is not actually invoked here.
If somebody has immunity to Illusion, it applies to the whole of Shadow Evocation. If they have immunity to Evocation, it doesn`t apply at all because no Evocation is involved.
The Saving Throw allowed by the simulated Evocation spell would be a `standard` save specifying Reflex/Fort/Will, and fitting into the normal rules, it`s DC is based on Spell Level and Caster Stat. There DO exist Feats and Class Abilities modifying this, BUT ONLY WHEN ACTUALLY CASTING THE SPELL... That isn`t happening in this case, as only the EFFECT with accompanying Saving Throw is being invoked... Just like if you had a damage bonus to Evocation spells you cast, which also wouldn`t apply to Shadow Evocation since the Evocation spell isn`t actually being cast. Even if an environmental effect would modify Evocation spells, there is no real Evocation going on, and Shadow Evocation only replecates the stated effect and associated Save, it doesn`t `adapt` the Save to how it would be modified IF it were actually cast in current conditions.
Since this 2nd Save IS part of the Shadow Evocation spell, and the whole spell is Illusion:Shadow, the 2nd Save would also be affected by any applicable bonuses to Illusion:Shadow spell casting. If there was any part of the spell that was not Illusion:Shadow, the spell would need to explicitly point that out... And I`m pretty sure Paizo has explicitly ruled out doing split-school spells. Besides, given it has 2 saves, it`s beneficial for most characters to use one school focus... The only people not would be munchkins playing min-maxed Evokers who pick this spell up so they don`t actually have to learn all the Evocation spells, and can instead be an uber-pseudo-spontaneous Evoker without spells known worries. Yuck.
Welcome dont take this the wrong way did you fail a save vs this spell and only missed by like 1 or 2 and then found out it had SF Illusion?
What that means is that your fireball is treated as if its a 5th level spell not a 3rd level.
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No. I have a player who runs a Shadowcraft Mage and I'd really like to know whether he gets that +6 DC or not. I can, and will, make a DM call about this as soon as I know how it's supposed to work by RAW in the first place.
If the spell is an Illusion spell, if the DC is the regular DC you'd expect from Shadow Evocation, then why in blazes does the text go on to specify that you use Shadown Evocation's level rather than the base spell's? Why just the level? Why specifically single out the level and leave out the rest? At best it's terrible editing, at worst it's a gray area that needs to be clarified. Hence my asking for someone from Paizo to give me a hand here. :)
They call it out to make it clear that if you are emulating a Fireball (3rd level), you calculate the Save DC of the Reflex Save using the Shadow Evocation (4th level).
I'm not really seeing what the confusion is.
If a 9th level Illusionist with 19 Int with "Spell Focus: Illusion" casts Fireball then the Reflex DC is 17. If the same spell-caster in his next turn casts "Shadow Evocation" emulating a Fireball then the Reflex Save is 20 (10 + 5 for Shadow Evocation's Level + 1 for Spell Focus: Illusion). The Creature also gets to make a Will Save at DC 20 if successful the damage is reduced to 20%.
It really can't get clearer than that. No matter what spell you are emulating it uses Shadow Evocation's Level, and because the spell is an Illusion spell any feat you have that modifies Illusion spells can be applied to all saves related to Shadow Evocation.
I thought about this for a bit and determined that Spell Focus (illusion) would need to apply.
From a pure logical viewpoint, if you were to cast a shadow evocation (fireball) at an enemy, would your Spell focus (evocation) apply? Certainly not, as you have not cast an evocation spell. Therefore, spell focus (illusion) must apply.
The only thing about saves emulated from the original spell is that the save is happening in the first place.
So a Shadow Evocation Fireball gets it's reflex save to avoid 50% damage.
But then it says it uses the Shadow Evocation level instead of the fireballs. Why is that, think about it? Because it's not a real fireball. It's an illusion of a fireball. The level of SE is used because it's not an actual fireball, so all things that apply to Illusion spells apply as well.
So if you have someone specialising in shadow or illusion magic, yeah that's a pretty neat spell for them. On the other hand they are pretty specialised AND that spell gets 2 saves or more (one to disbelieve, which pretty much ruins it and the normal ones for the emulated spell).
I mean most people in this thread have said that, and yet still you don't want it. Than disallow it in your game, you're the DM, but be prepared for a pissed player, because you just took away his classfeatures.
your just over thinking it bro trust us we all can't be wrong can we?
That's kind of my entire point. I would have been fine if they said "Use Shadow Evocation's DC for the secondary save as well."I would have been fine if they said nothing at all, in fact. But they specifically instruct to use Shadow Evocation's level. Just the level, nothing else. Seriously, doesn't that give pause to anyone else?
The rules state that if you take Spell Focus, you get +1 to the DC of saving throws for spells cast from the school selected.
Here's the rule of thumb: The rules do not need to tell you that something isn't an exception to an existing rule, they need to tell you if it is.
The spell does not require a statement that it is not an exception to the existing rules for Spell Focus. Doing so is redundant.
However, if the spell was an exception to the rule (spell focus (illusion) did not add to the DC to the second save despite the spell being an illusion spell), then that would need to be stated specifically.
No need for pause.