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The fact that is has always been broken doesn't cause it to be less broken now.
They have always been stackable. Back in the 3.5 days(as if it was so long ago :) ) I think I saw a build doing 1000 points of damage. I don't think the 200 is broken in pathfinder because it takes a lot to be able to do it. I think he is burning 4 or 5 feats, and my NPC's spy on PC's so Protection from Energy is in play, on top of energy resistance and good saves. Then he(the caster) gets targeted by all the bad guys ala focused fire. Now I understand that power level is not for everyone, including myself anymore, but I rather see it as an option than having it ever cut off.
Some people enjoy games like that.PS:Stock monsters have issues with it, but I think a GM should let his players know what he comfortable with up front so that hopefully a player holds back, or decides not to sit at the table.
That is not what I was saying.
What I am saying is that broken is relative for the most part.
Relative to what?
Also, what I described involves burning 1 feat and buying one rod to be able to cast two maximized fireballs in a single round as early as 9th level, withing WBL, particularly if I take craft rod at 9th and I can then have that quickened rod for 17,500.
That is before adding in things like admixture school, or if I burn the feats spell perfection to add another feat to the same spell
Remember in Pathfinder you get more feats, and wizards already get bonus feats. By 9th a wizard has 6 feats, 7 if they are human.
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Still well below WBL of a 15th level caster.Why are you comparing quicken spells to none quicken spells? Also there is a new feat that allows casters to summon as a standard action. So if you have a quicken rod, you can pull put two large elementals and your chance of being disrupted is the same as casting 2 fireballs. Hell it's even less feat intensive then the 200 damage per round by casting 2 fireballs.
Because what you are describing can't be done with a lesser metamagic rod, as it is a 5th level spell.
What I am describing can.
Which is the problem.
Lesser metamagic rod is 35000 gold, or half if crafted.
Normal metamagic rod (what you would need) is 75,500 gp, or half if crafted.
Who is worried about the 15th level caster. I'm talking the 9th or 10th level caster.
If the game is broken at high levels, that is what it is. When it creeps into mid level gaming, I worry.
What 15th level opponent can't handle a large summoned elemental?
The fact that is has always been broken doesn't cause it to be less broken now.
They have always been stackable. Back in the 3.5 days(as if it was so long ago :) ) I think I saw a build doing 1000 points of damage. I don't think the 200 is broken in pathfinder because it takes a lot to be able to do it. I think he is burning 4 or 5 feats, and my NPC's spy on PC's so Protection from Energy is in play, on top of energy resistance and good saves. Then he(the caster) gets targeted by all the bad guys ala focused fire. Now I understand that power level is not for everyone, including myself anymore, but I rather see it as an option than having it ever cut off.
Some people enjoy games like that.PS:Stock monsters have issues with it, but I think a GM should let his players know what he comfortable with up front so that hopefully a player holds back, or decides not to sit at the table.
That is not what I was saying.
What I am saying is that broken is relative for the most part.Relative to what?
Also, what I described involves burning 1 feat and buying one rod to be able to cast two maximized fireballs in a single round as early as 9th level, withing WBL, particularly if I take craft rod at 9th and I can then have that quickened rod for 17,500.
That is before adding in things like admixture school, or if I burn the feats spell perfection to add another feat to the same spell
Remember in Pathfinder you get more feats, and wizards already get bonus feats. By 9th a wizard has 6 feats, 7 if they are human.
Relative to what power level(optimization level) a group is used to playing at. I saw a post here complaining about 6th level barbarian doing over 15 points of damage. The OP called the player a powergamer. I remember the old smite is broken threads. There is a recent thread about a TWF fighter doing 110 points of damage at level 12, and the DM was not happy about that.
I don't see 200 as over the op at all. The rods do make things easier, but I don't think it is something that can't be handled. Now if a GM is short on time, and can't adjust to every player tactic that still does not make it broken. It just means the player need to be told to tone it down for that GM so because he does not have the time to adjust or maybe he does not want that level of optimization at the table for whatever reason.
The last game I ran I had a fighter with an AC of about 60. I had 3.5 stuff in there also though. Now if I did not have the amount of free time I did it would have been an issue, but for that game it was not broken. The next game I run I won't have as much free time so I plan to take steps to keep the power level down which means that same AC would be broken next time around.
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Relative to what power level(optimization level) a group is used to playing at. I saw a post here complaining about 6th level barbarian doing over 15 points of damage. The OP called the player a powergamer. I remember the old smite is broken threads. There is a recent thread about a TWF fighter doing 110 points of damage at level 12, and the DM was not happy about that.
This isn't about an "optimized" (aka narrow) build. It is one feat and one item.
The fact that you can quicken any 3rd or below spell for 17,500 gold is bad, that you can have it metamagic equivalent of your highest spell level and do it is problematic.
Again, this isn't even getting into cheese exploits and there is a problem. This is using maybe two feats (craft rod and the metamagic feat of your choice) and 17,500 gold to be able to cast enhanced spell twice in a round.
If you consider the intent of the level adjustment comes from the understanding that the new spell is basically of the power level of the new slot, you've now allowed people to cast their most powerful spell twice in a round at 9th level for roughly the price of a +3 sword.
Still well below WBL of a 15th level caster.Why are you comparing quicken spells to none quicken spells? Also there is a new feat that allows casters to summon as a standard action. So if you have a quicken rod, you can pull put two large elementals and your chance of being disrupted is the same as casting 2 fireballs. Hell it's even less feat intensive then the 200 damage per round by casting 2 fireballs.
Because what you are describing can't be done with a lesser metamagic rod, as it is a 5th level spell.
What I am describing can.
Which is the problem.
Lesser metamagic rod is 35000 gold, or half if crafted.
Normal metamagic rod (what you would need) is 75,500 gp, or half if crafted.
Who is worried about the 15th level caster. I'm talking the 9th or 10th level caster.
If the game is broken at high levels, that is what it is. When it creeps into mid level gaming, I worry.
What 15th level opponent can't handle a large summoned elemental?
RD also said his build does not mature until after 10th level, and the spell that makes it really good is not available until about 15th level so it seems to be a non-issue anyway at least until I see a 10th level build that does something remarkable with blasting.
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RD also said his build does not mature until after 10th level, and the spell that makes it really good is not available until about 15th level so it seems to be a non-issue anyway at least until I see a 10th level build that does something remarkable with blasting.
It isn’t just about blasting.
I have no issue with corner case optimized builds that do one thing really well but pretty much suck at everything else. The SoS wizard threads are full of these kind of builds that are very likely to be successful in a single combat encounter, but struggle in other encounters unless receiving a ton of party support.
What I’m looking at is that at 9th level a Wizard who took one metamagic feat and maybe one crafting feat that can throw two spells a round with a +2 metamagic feat three times a day for slightly more than a +3 sword and two feats (Craft rod and the Metamagic feat). You have 6 or 7 feats at this point, so this isn’t a major expense.
Two empowered fireballs are going to be average of about 94.5 damage a round at 9th level on a failed save, 47.25 on a made. At long range.
A CR 9 Monster has an average of 115 hit points. So that is 83% of damage in a single round, average at long range in a 20 ft radius.
What RD is talking about is adding intensified, so at 11th level for +1 level I can add intensified. Remember the wizard gets a bonus at 10th, so at 11th I’ve got two more feats and access to 6th level spells. So I get intensified and maximized. So a 4th spell slot level slot can cast a 52.5 average damage fireball, quickened to 105. So I can now cast two quickened maximized fireballs, each doing 60 damage for a total of 120 damage.
A CR 11 monster has an average 145 hit points. So that is 83% of damage in a single round, average at long range in a 20 ft radius.
At 13th level I can get to 7th level spells so now I can cast a maximized intensive spell, again quickened with my 17,500 gold rod (of which I probably can afford multiple at this point). Now I am doing 90 damage per 7th level spell slot fireball, two per round for 180 damage.
A CR 13 monster has an average of 180 hit points. So that is 100% of damage in a single round, at long range in a 20 ft radius. An actual, honest to goodness, save or die.
At long range.
With a 20 ft radius.
I really want to emphasize this part. It isn't just the damage. It is the fact that you can do the damage at long range to an 20 ft radius area.
And none of this is nearly a fully optimized build. There are tons of feats and other options left. This is just a more or less generic build using less than half of your feats and one under 20,000 gold item.
You can specialize a bit. For example I personally would probably go admixture evocation specialist and now I can change it from fire to acid or cold or electricity as I need it and just make sure to focus on knowledges so I can be sure to hit weaknesses. I’m not even trying and I can smell the cheese potential.
I think they were trying to buff up blasters. And I think they went to far in the APG. Meanwhile in the same book they introduce persistent spell, which is just as broken, if not more so when you consider a persistent metamagic rod cost vs it’s value in combat.
Both are in need of serious nerfs, as they are major power creep opportunities.
Or they're resistant/immune to fire.
And now you're burning ADDITIONAL resources swapping your elements, which may mean not using the metamagic you wanted to or spending additional feats/class levels picking up elemental substitutions usable on the fly.
Or WORSE, they're intelligent or have spellcasters of their own, and just shut you down halfway or completely.
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You know how easy it is to save against a level 3 spell by 10th level. So cut your damage in half. Then add in energy resistance and guess what noone is dead and you just blown your 2 spell slots.RD also said his build does not mature until after 10th level, and the spell that makes it really good is not available until about 15th level so it seems to be a non-issue anyway at least until I see a 10th level build that does something remarkable with blasting.Level 10 draconic sorcerer:
Feat: Maximize Spell
Trait: (the one that makes meta magic -1 effective on one spell)
Item: Lesser Rod of Quickened SpellMaximized Fireball (5th level slot) = 60 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 70
Quickened Fireball (3rd level slot) = 35 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 45115 area damage (75 area damage w/ level 10 energy resistance)
(this is far from optimized, but 115 damage at level 10 still raw kills many PCs)
And don't forget the possibility of Evasion, meaning zero damage on a successful save...
By the time you are fighting CR12 creatures, I think it is safe to assume that they will more than likely make the saves of a level 3 spell.CR 10 mobs have +9/+13 weak/strong saves on average
CR 12 mobs have +11/+15 weak/strong saves on averagePotential save DC for Fireball:
10 + 3 (spell level) + 7 (stat, 20 nat stat +4 item) + 1 (feat) = DC 21
Add more potential with...
...feats
...higher level spells
...party tactics (Intimidate, Prayer spell, Dirge of Doom, etc.)
Now you're talking even MORE investment in this single trick. Including OTHER PLAYERS. And something like more feats than you're likely to have at level 10.
If the whole party can stomp an encounter via massive investment into a Nova, this is not a balance issue. Its fine.
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By the time you are fighting CR12 creatures, I think it is safe to assume that they will more than likely make the saves of a level 3 spell.CR 10 mobs have +9/+13 weak/strong saves on average
CR 12 mobs have +11/+15 weak/strong saves on averagePotential save DC for Fireball:
10 + 3 (spell level) + 7 (stat, 20 nat stat +4 item) + 1 (feat) = DC 21
Add more potential with...
...feats
...higher level spells
...party tactics (Intimidate, Prayer spell, Dirge of Doom, etc.)
Now you're talking even MORE investment in this single trick. Including OTHER PLAYERS. And something like more feats than you're likely to have at level 10.
If the whole party can stomp an encounter via massive investment into a Nova, this is not a balance issue. Its fine.
Exactly. As long as you are facing level-appropriate encounters, Metamagic spells are game-balanced. There are enough defenses, feats, and other options that non-optimized NPCs/Monsters/PCs have available to counter a Metamagic-enhanced spell. It's only when you talk about the abilities granted by stacking Metamagic feats without taking into account the context in which they will be used that they appear to be over-powered.
Sooo,
a lesser meatmagic rod of quickening is OPed when combined with a Fireball (or any 3rd level spell) and further enhanced with metamagic?
Well, there is an easy fix to this one, isn't it?
But, a 10th Level Nova Alchemist can do that and more to a single monster with a touch attack and varying damage types and may even apply a trip along the way.
So Nova Alchemists are OPed more than meta magic?
Sooo,
a lesser meatmagic rod of quickening is OPed when combined with a Fireball (or any 3rd level spell) and further enhanced with metamagic?
Well, there is an easy fix to this one, isn't it?
But, a 10th Level Nova Alchemist can do that and more to a single monster with a touch attack and varying damage types and may even apply a trip along the way.
So Nova Alchemists are OPed more than meta magic?
Whats worse is your alchemist can also apply things like staggered on a failed save, or finish off with a Stinking Cloud just for giggles.
HOWEVER, the alchemist is VERY limited on range, which the fireballs or not.
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Sooo,
a lesser meatmagic rod of quickening is OPed when combined with a Fireball (or any 3rd level spell) and further enhanced with metamagic?
Well, there is an easy fix to this one, isn't it?
But, a 10th Level Nova Alchemist can do that and more to a single monster with a touch attack and varying damage types and may even apply a trip along the way.
So Nova Alchemists are OPed more than meta magic?
Single target (granted with splash) close range with a touch attack and reflex save, vs long range 20 ft radius.
And to the other post, cost was 17,500 and two feats out of 6 (7 if human) for 9th, going up as described from there.
A very low investment when you consider the payoff.
It was not a single trick. It was a single example.
Controllers, argued to be the best mage, get just as much boost from the Lesser Rod of Quickened spells as blasters.
And yes, it is a Nova effect. The Rods of MetaMagic allow lower level mages to Nova to a much higher level effect, much earlier than "normal", and/or much more often. If a GM is okay with these more powerful, abundant Nova affects, then it is indeed fine and not a balance issue.
I'd say controllers totally benefit more from Metamagic Rods. And at the same time, less from metamagic stacking. And rods of Persistent spell, for some reason, are cheap. What else does Stinking Cloud or Suggestion need?
Rods of Lesser Quicken, however, are not. We're talking 11th level before they're less than half your total WBL to own one. Thats the same level you could be quickening a Magical Lineaged fireball, right? Thats not terribly early.
EDIT: The feat cost I was referring to was the feat cost to be on track for Spell Perfection (minimum Quicken, Empower, Maximize), Intensify as well to keep fireball on track, AS WELL as the Focus Spells (2) to keep DC's up, and now you're also talking about Craft Rod in order to make rods affordable. Thats a lot of feats. You're losing out somewhere.
15th level half-orc red dragon sorcerer: "I am become death."
Two-weapon falcata fighter: "Now we are all sons of b!!!!es."
Bonus points if the Quicken rod is smelted from pitchblende.
Notably, I think the bard in the previous example is fine. Good for him. And I do think this is a great example of allowing a character to do something early.
The wizard certainly doesn't get the same benefit from the rod; he gets a different, and probably equally valuable benefit from it. Abundance is a good way of putting it.
For the cost though, is it overpowered? I dont think so.
All I have to say is that we have banned metamagic rods in our games. We have no problems with meta magic when you pay the cost (i.e. spell levels), but the rods let you ignore this.
And we are not concerned about empower and all the other damage metamagic feats. What killed us was the quicken and the one that forces 2 saves (even at the corrected price).
And this is not even for high level. We had problems in the level 6 - 10 range.
You can't really compare +x to attack and damage to the value of +x enhancement bonus for a weapon.
A +5 weapon has benefits (namely bypassing almost all DR) beyond just attack and damage rolls.
A +5 weapon has benefits (namely bypassing almost all DR) beyond just attack and damage rolls.I stated this.
I equated the DR benefits not gained to the +2 saves and ability checks that Good Hope gives. Calling them equal, I removed them from the valuation. This is an assumption, but it isn't a terrible one.
My point isn't that they aren't really comparable for the purposes of assigning a gold value. Especially since they stack. And the cost of not having the rod is not missing out on the full benefit, its missing out on the full benefit until the next round, and so on.
Another nifty effect is to auto-frighten all creatures in a 30 ft cone (that aren't flat out immune to fear) by casting Fear and Quickened Fear in the same area.
Make the first save......... shaken
Make the second save... frightened
Miss either save............. panicked
That's a great idea! I've been wanting to try out a character who played with inflicting status effects in combat, instead of traditional buffing/debuffing or damage.
The real problem, from what I see, is Spell Perfection. It simply makes it too easy to do the stacking, since one of the feats used will no longer apply to raising the level of the slot used.+1.
It's a really, really strong feat.
On the other hand, not available until level 15 and IMHO the game's well into silly country by then.
Well, I can manage the game fairly well at that level and still... persistent perfeted SoD are too much even for my standards.
people, about evocation, don't think about maximized spell. Think about DAZING spells. 3 rounds of daze means you are gone.
And once again, PERSISTENT. that feat is just weird. Paizo went to far with rerolls. The more spal I see, the more stuff I see rerolled.
Numbers change A LOT if rerolled.
Threads like this should start with the OP defining what they mean by "balance" because otherwise the discussion goes in circles.
Assuming most people mean that all the PC's are similarly effective when they say "balance", then we should also say that weak builds are unbalanced. However, you only see these threads pop up for the very strong builds, why is it that the strong unbalanced builds are a problem but the weak builds are not?
The only broken thing, I think, is that metamagic rods work based on actual spell level rather than spell slot.
First off, since you're looking to use Magical Lineage/other spell-specific stuff, let's use an admixture wizard, since they're the only single-spell-specialist blaster that doesn't suck. We'll look at level 11, which is pretty much the best level for said wizard.
We'll go with an elf, because spell penetration is something we'll need to be effective against enemies with SR. I'll use the PFS variant wizard to give it a little bit extra oomph, too.
Traits:
Magical Lineage
Any other trait
Feats:
1. Spell Focus (Evocation)
1. Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)
3. Spell Penetration
5. Spell Specialization (Fireball), Maximized Spell
7. Greater Spell Penetration
9. Bloatmage Initiate
10. Intensified Spell
11. Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
Equipment:
Lesser Quicken Rod
+6 Headband of INT
At this point, you INT is 28, granting one bonus 6th level spell, two bonus 2nd-5th level spells, and three bonus 1st level spells. Fireball's DC is 22.
An Intensified Maximized Fireball is a level 6 spell slot for this character (3+3+1-1), but still a 3rd level spell so he can quicken it with his lesser rod. Effective caster level on this for damage is 15 (11 + 2 spell specialization + 1 tattoo + 1 bloatmage initiate). For the purpose of overcoming spell resistance, he has a +19 with this spell (11 + 2 elf + 2 spell pen + 2 G spell pen + 1 tattoo + 1 bloatmage initiate).
So the damage from those 2 fireballs in one round is going to be 180. Making one save will result in damage of 135, while making both saves will result in damage of 90. Damage for this spell will not increase any more as the character levels, except for the addition of empowered spell. The DC will not increase very much, either.
ALL IN ALL, WHAT THE WIZARD'S DAMAGE OUTPUT LOOKS LIKE AGAINST REF +10 creatures (ref +10 is average for the bad save of a CR11):
2 rounds per day [maximized intensified fireballs, one quickened]: 139.5 DPR
1 round per day [maximized fireballs, one quickened]: 93 DPR
3 rounds per day [maximized fireball]: 46.5 DPR
7 rounds per day [intensified fireball]: 40.6875 DPR
Four level 4 slots I left unused could also be used for intensified fireballs, though you probably want to use one or possibly two for overland flight.
Honestly, the only time the DPR is even competitive with optimized fighters is at full blast, which can be sustained 2 rounds per day, and this could largely be fixed in the mid levels by making metamagic rods depend on spell slot or adjusted spell level, not on actual spell level.
See ciretose, you just need every enemy the party faces to be immune to fire, have good saves, and evasion. They should also walk around with globes of invulnerably, spell immunity to whatever the party casts most, and an entourage of followers waiting to disrupt any caster.
See meta-magic isn't a problem anymore. Balance restored!
But more seriously, there are soooo many ways to exploit the power of higher level (10th+) casters that I feel this is just one more straw on the crushed camel. Without drastically rewriting the rules of high level magic, I'm not sure it is possible to restore any kind of sanity. Good on you for trying though.
The only way I have found to balance the game at higher levels is to play with people who don't try to unbalance it.
See ciretose, you just need every enemy the party faces to be immune to fire, have good saves, and evasion. They should also walk around with globes of invulnerably, spell immunity to whatever the party casts most, and an entourage of followers waiting to disrupt any caster.
As a note, Ring's of Counterspells are cheap.
Spell Immunity Fireball is simply a good idea versus evokers.
Fire Resistance/Immunity is common on higher level monsters, and trivial to obtain with low level spells.
These are not things that require specific effort to throw in the parties way; they are things which will probably require effort for the party not to encounter on a regular basis.
See ciretose, you just blah blah blahAs a note, Ring's of Counterspells...
These are not things that require specific effort to throw in the parties way; they are things which will probably require effort for the party not to encounter on a regular basis.
You are right.
Half of my post was just a lighthearted jab at ciretose, as in dozens (hundreds?) of posts, he was the one suggesting counter measures for all the folks who asserted that the full casting classes rule the game.
I can't help but notice that anytime someone points out a perceived power imbalance with something magic related, (generally showing how powerful casters are) the answer is almost always more magic. Sometimes it is to not use half the creature types, or give every creature some item, but usually it involves casters, frequently with things like dispel magic.
I guess my point is, if you need enemy casters in every encounter, or creatures immune to fire, or with flight, or true seeing, or immunity to paralysis, or whatever, in order to challenge the party, then there IS a problem. Yes, some characters should shine (or not) in some encounters, but if you can breeze though 50-75% of encounters using basically the same tactics, that is bad for the game.
I have a question about the initial thought behind the thread... So, were you looking at the rules and thought jeesum crow thats unbalanced? Or have there been problems in the games you play in, with people abusing rods and making important encounters a cake walk?
I didn't see anything about actual in game examples, just possibilities. I just ask the above because I don't think I've only once had someone in my groups even bother to take a metamagic feat. Let alone combine it with a rod, which some how needs to be found/made and paid for. (Actually really rare that we have the amount of gp you're talking about on hand with characters, damn those bar tabs.)
RD also said his build does not mature until after 10th level, and the spell that makes it really good is not available until about 15th level so it seems to be a non-issue anyway at least until I see a 10th level build that does something remarkable with blasting.Level 10 draconic sorcerer:
Feat: Maximize Spell
Trait: (the one that makes meta magic -1 effective on one spell)
Item: Lesser Rod of Quickened SpellMaximized Fireball (5th level slot) = 60 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 70
Quickened Fireball (3rd level slot) = 35 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 45115 area damage (75 area damage w/ level 10 energy resistance)
(this is far from optimized, but 115 damage at level 10 still raw kills many PCs)
That is not remarkable, and I don't think there are many PC's that will die to that combo on a regular basis. You just cast two spells which is why it is not impressive. It also depends on the save being failed.
If this is an NPC the players should have info on him in a real game so most likely they can deal with it.
If this is a PC then the average CR 10 monster has 130 hit points. Hit point damage does not effect the monster's ability to kill you.
That rod of quicken is also 35000 gp. That is a lot of gold for something that can only be used 3/day, and there is no guarantee all the uses will apply to that fireball spell. I still don't see it breaking the game, which makes it a non issue.
As powerful and cheap as metamagic rods are, I would not be at all adverse to a ruling that stated they could not be stacked with metamagic of ANY kind (free or otherwise).
That being said, I don't really agree with anything else posited by Ciretose in this thread.
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See ciretose, you just need every enemy the party faces to be immune to fire, have good saves, and evasion. They should also walk around with globes of invulnerably, spell immunity to whatever the party casts most, and an entourage of followers waiting to disrupt any caster.
See meta-magic isn't a problem anymore. Balance restored!
But more seriously, there are soooo many ways to exploit the power of higher level (10th+) casters that I feel this is just one more straw on the crushed camel. Without drastically rewriting the rules of high level magic, I'm not sure it is possible to restore any kind of sanity. Good on you for trying though.
The only way I have found to balance the game at higher levels is to play with people who don't try to unbalance it.
I still think it is fine with the exception of Persistent, Intensify, and the rods as written.
If rods modify the spell slot, rather than the spell that would fix a lot of things. I still think Rods are overpowered, but that would at least bring sanity into play.
As to what the OP defines as balance, look to Ultimate Magic for the "how to write spells" section for the rules they broke with both intensify and Persistent.
Intensify basically is a one level bump that can be a 5 level power increase. Way to low a level bump.
Persistent needs to be at least a +3.
And to the person comparing to DPR, may I say again this damage is done at ,Long Range to All targets in a 20 foot radius.
Two mistakes that snuck into the APG.
And your poking me is completely fair. This thread is a bunch of people doing what I normally do to others. Karma, man :)
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As powerful and cheap as metamgic rods are, I would not be at all adverse to a ruling that stated they could not be stacked with metamagic of ANY kind (free or otherwise).
That being said, I don't really agree with anything else posited by Ciretose.
That would also fix a lot of the problem.
And I also generally don't agree with anything posited by RD.
As powerful and cheap as metamgic rods are, I would not be at all adverse to a ruling that stated they could not be stacked with metamagic of ANY kind (free or otherwise).
That being said, I don't really agree with anything else posited by Ciretose.
That would also fix a lot of the problem.
And I also generally don't agree with anything posited by RD.
Apologies. I didn't mean that as an insult. Fixed my wording.
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Apologies. I didn't mean that as an insult. Fixed my wording.As powerful and cheap as metamgic rods are, I would not be at all adverse to a ruling that stated they could not be stacked with metamagic of ANY kind (free or otherwise).
That being said, I don't really agree with anything else posited by Ciretose.
That would also fix a lot of the problem.
And I also generally don't agree with anything posited by RD.
Then my comment is rescinded.
You're talking a 35/75k magic item that is not even usable as a device until you are level 11+, by WBL. And all it does is give a damage bonus to a lower level spell slot 3t/day, or allow you to cast a second spell in a round.
You're talking a great amount of character design, feats spent, cash directed, and build devoted to being good at One Thing...at HIGH level.
And anyone who knows anything about the character can SHUT IT DOWN with simple tactics like counterspells, fire protection, cover, evasion, and hte like.
ANd the ability to do it at long range is meh, because most encounters don't take place at 400 feet. As soon as this wizard gets known for launching huge fireballs, he's going to go up against casters with level 5 apprentices standing around with scrolls of Fireball JUST to counterspell him...and thus he becomes useless.
It's like having an ubercharger who can't charge, or something. Plus, he doesn't have infinite spell slots, so unless you let the 15 minute adventuring day reign, he's going to shoot his wad and sit around useless.
STILL not seeing the problem with this. Blaster damage is sucky enough on average that being able to do something like this is not really a problem.
==Aelryinth