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In short, what the Gnome Cavalier player was doing is referred to as Metagaming.
And, to start to answer your questions, here is a quote covering what the player did, or rather what he didn't do but should have, from the PFSOP Guide:
Replaying Scenarios
In certain circumstances, a player may need to replay a
scenario he has already completed, or play a scenario that
he has already run as a GM.If you have already played a scenario and wish to play
it an additional time for any reason, you must inform
the GM that you have already played the scenario.If you spoil the plot for the table, the GM has the right
to ask you to leave the table and is under no obligation
to award you a Chronicle sheet. Be very careful about
character knowledge versus player knowledge. If you’re
concerned about possibly spoiling something during
the course of play, take the GM aside and ask how she
would like it handled. Remember: the goal of replay is
to make sure fun gaming happens, not to remove the
fun from gaming.
In any case, at least when I play a scenario I have played or GMed before, I notify the GM, and try my best not to metagame my personal knowledge of the module.
From what it sounds like, the player had done a fair read-through and/or played/GMed the scenario before. Now, as it is explicitly covered as being legal to play and GM this scenario multiple times for credit, there is nothing wrong with playing it twice, or playing after you GM it, but, and this is one of the places that player fell down, you need to let the GM know that you have previous experience with the module.
And, in the other place that this player fell down, you cannot use out of game knowledge in-game without breaking the game.
Some minor metagaming is likely to always happen, whether it is players knowing the DR and types for Skeletons and Zombies, which is minor, and easy to make believable that there are a plenitude of in-game resources for knowing that; or someone who GMed a module accidentally using knowledge from having run it to "out" an encounter, if it is minor, or an obvious oops, no real harm is done.
On the other hand, what the cavalier player did as obviously more than an accidental oops, he knew what he was doing was not in the spirit of the game, and even planned ahead for the final encounter. Indeed, what he did, if it was, indeed, a potion of Blur, may have moved into the realms of actual cheating, since you need to have 5 Fame to purchase such a potion, as it costs 300 gp, and is not a first level potion. It is possible that one of the (no more than) 2 modules his PC had credit for had it on the Chronicle, but that would be the only legal source for a first level PC to have access to said potion.
At this point, if I were you, I would pull this player aside the next time I saw him and explain to him that what he did made the module less enjoyable for everyone else at the table, including the GM. Also explain what the rules require, including that he cannot read a module before he plays unless he is going to be GMing it. (That is in the section of the Guide dealing with cheating, by the way.)
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I need a few bits of advice from other judges about running these. Let me give the background and then ask my question.
I recently ran the first part in a local shop. A mix of players as you would expect at a shop. Mostly the characters are fresh, though one player was bringing in a Gnome Cavalier with an adventure or two already run (DM credits I think), and he is the root of my questions.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
The first part doesn't, in my mind, include anything out of the ordinary. I figure taking 'evidence' from someone deemed untrustworthy is within the limits of, well, modesty. While not something a lawful character would do, I'd allow the course of action and continue.
The next bit though ... if I understood correctly he (I assume) drank the Blur potion before combat even started? Do note that the First Steps scenarios are free and thus it's easy to download and read one if you like. Same applies to cheating players. Anyways, the issue you described is blatant cheating. If I were you I'd pause the session and ask seriously why his character was about to drink a potion. Despite the OP environment robbing GMs most of the powers you are still allowed to make calls on these subjects, especially if the reasoning is clearly loose.
My opinion? Confront the player and ask whether he had read the scenario in advance. He/she will most likely deny. Regardless keep a close eye on his actions and if it ever happens again, report the incident to, say, the store owner/local coordinator. Other GMs shouldn't have to tackle with cheating players either.
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Quick clarification:
The Fame threshold for buying things costing 500gp or less is 4 Fame, not 5. So two scenarios with full Fame (such as a pair of GM credits) would get him to that threshold while he's still at level 1. So he may not have been cheating there.
As for the metagaming: you'd have had every right to call him out on it and, if he didn't change his behavior, kick him from the table without a chronicle sheet. You can't change the past, though, so just keep it in mind for the future. If someone's clearly using knowledge their character shouldn't have (like that they're about to be ambushed), you have the authority to put a stop to it.
From the PFS Guidebook ver 4.0 p. 16:
"If you spoil the plot for the table, the GM has the right to ask you to leave the table and is under no obligation to award you a Chronicle sheet. Be very careful about character knowledge versus player knowledge. If you’re concerned about possibly spoiling something during the course of play, take the GM aside and ask how she would like it handled. Remember: the goal of replay is to make sure fun gaming happens, not to remove the
fun from gaming."
Denying a player a chronicle should fix the problem really quickly. It might even turn them into an honest player at your table (without losing them).
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Are there any restrictions on which PCs can have the GM credit from these scenarios applied to them, apart from the obvious criterion of being 1st level?
For example, I have a 1st level character with 1 XP (from Frostfur Captives) and a chosen faction, that I'm only likely to get to play very rarely. Can I apply the GM credit from 'In Service to Lore' and 'To Delve the Dungeon Deep' to this PC? Obviously he'd then be 2nd level, so the GM credit from 'A Vision of Betrayal' would have to be assigned to a different PC.
This comment from Mark seems to imply it would be OK, but I wanted to clarify to make sure I wasn't going to break any rules.
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Are there any restrictions on which PCs can have the GM credit from these scenarios applied to them, apart from the obvious criterion of being 1st level?
For example, I have a 1st level character with 1 XP (from Frostfur Captives) and a chosen faction, that I'm only likely to get to play very rarely. Can I apply the GM credit from 'In Service to Lore' and 'To Delve the Dungeon Deep' to this PC? Obviously he'd then be 2nd level, so the GM credit from 'A Vision of Betrayal' would have to be assigned to a different PC.
This comment from Mark seems to imply it would be OK, but I wanted to clarify to make sure I wasn't going to break any rules.
That is in accordance with my understanding of the rules.
Quick clarification:
The Fame threshold for buying things costing 500gp or less is 4 Fame, not 5. So two scenarios with full Fame (such as a pair of GM credits) would get him to that threshold while he's still at level 1. So he may not have been cheating there.
Even though this has been clarified in other threads, in case someone reads this one and not those, and since the table in the Guide has not been fixed yet as of this date, this is incorrect. You need at least 5 Fame to buy anything that is not on the Always Available list or from a Chronicle sheet.
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Just a quick question on this. (Sorry if it was said somewhere already)
Can GMs play down? As in out-of-tier down? I think the answer is no, but that means that GMs are going to have loads of level 1 characters hanging around after they have run this loads. I know they can play out-of-tier up, and just wait for this xp, but is playing down okay?
Thanks for the clarification.
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Just a quick question on this. (Sorry if it was said somewhere already)
Can GMs play down? As in out-of-tier down? I think the answer is no, but that means that GMs are going to have loads of level 1 characters hanging around after they have run this loads. I know they can play out-of-tier up, and just wait for this xp, but is playing down okay?
Thanks for the clarification.
For GMs and Players, credit for First Steps can only be given to 1st level Pcs.
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Even though this has been clarified in other threads, in case someone reads this one and not those, and since the table in the Guide has not been fixed yet as of this date, this is incorrect. You need at least 5 Fame to buy anything that is not on the Always Available list or from a Chronicle sheet.Quick clarification:
The Fame threshold for buying things costing 500gp or less is 4 Fame, not 5. So two scenarios with full Fame (such as a pair of GM credits) would get him to that threshold while he's still at level 1. So he may not have been cheating there.
Wait, what? I knew the "or less" was an error, but I don't remember hearing anything about the number being 5 instead of 4. Can you hook me up with a link?
No, you can never give a GM credit to a character that is higher in level than the highest level allowed by the scenario. So if a GM runs one of the First Steps parts, he can only apply that credit to a level one character. If he runs a tier 1-5 scenario, he can give the credit to any character that is level five or lower, though going exactly by the book, if you have a level 4 character and a level 2, then you are supposed to give it to the level four if you run at sub-tier 4-5 and not hold it for the level two or give it to the level two if you run at sub-tier 1-2. But from what I have seen on the boards, that part of the rule tends to get bent a bit in those situations.
I am pretty sure this is the rule for sanctioned modules as well, but I have never run one of those.
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No, you can never give a GM credit to a character that is higher in level than the highest level allowed by the scenario. So if a GM runs one of the First Steps parts, he can only apply that credit to a level one character. If he runs a tier 1-5 scenario, he can give the credit to any character that is level five or lower, though going exactly by the book, if you have a level 4 character and a level 2, then you are supposed to give it to the level four if you run at sub-tier 4-5 and not hold it for the level two or give it to the level two if you run at sub-tier 1-2. But from what I have seen on the boards, that part of the rule tends to get bent a bit in those situations.
I am pretty sure this is the rule for sanctioned modules as well, but I have never run one of those.
OK here's a question. I applied 6 GM credit sheets to a character over the space of about 10 weeks having never played the character before. Two of these sheets were First steps sheets but I think these were the 5th and 6th sessions I ran.
Now given that I only had GM Credit on this character was it OK to apply the First Steps sheets to what was technically a 2nd level character even though I had never played him?
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No, you can never give a GM credit to a character that is higher in level than the highest level allowed by the scenario. So if a GM runs one of the First Steps parts, he can only apply that credit to a level one character. If he runs a tier 1-5 scenario, he can give the credit to any character that is level five or lower, though going exactly by the book, if you have a level 4 character and a level 2, then you are supposed to give it to the level four if you run at sub-tier 4-5 and not hold it for the level two or give it to the level two if you run at sub-tier 1-2. But from what I have seen on the boards, that part of the rule tends to get bent a bit in those situations.
I am pretty sure this is the rule for sanctioned modules as well, but I have never run one of those.
OK here's a question. I applied 6 GM credit sheets to a character over the space of about 10 weeks having never played the character before. Two of these sheets were First steps sheets but I think these were the 5th and 6th sessions I ran.
Now given that I only had GM Credit on this character was it OK to apply the First Steps sheets to what was technically a 2nd level character even though I had never played him?
I believe that you don't have to apply GM credit in the order you ran sceanrios so you could apply the First Steps credits and then the other credits.
Just a quick question on this. (Sorry if it was said somewhere already)
Can GMs play down? As in out-of-tier down? I think the answer is no, but that means that GMs are going to have loads of level 1 characters hanging around after they have run this loads. I know they can play out-of-tier up, and just wait for this xp, but is playing down okay?
Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, in a standard scenario you can play down as the GM. (First Step only has tier 1, so there is no longer tier to play down.) As a GM, you can apply any tier on the Chronicle to character, regardless of what tier the party played. The tier is based on your character's level instead.
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If [a GM] runs a tier 1-5 scenario, he can give the credit to any character that is level five or lower, though going exactly by the book, if you have a level 4 character and a level 2, then you are supposed to give it to the level four if you run at sub-tier 4-5 and not hold it for the level two or give it to the level two if you run at sub-tier 1-2.
The Guide says:
The subtier for which a GM’s character receives credit depends on the character’s level. If a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 1–2, she takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet for her 1st-level rogue. If she runs a Tier 1–5 scenario using Subtier 4–5), she still takes a Subtier 1–2 Chronicle sheet, as her PC clearly falls within the lower subtier.
If the GM with a low-level character runs any higher tier scenarios that don’t include a subtier for her 1st-level rogue, she takes the lowest subtier Chronicle sheet from that scenario and holds it for her PC. Then, once her PC achieves the appropriate level for that Chronicle sheet, it is immediately applied. For example, if a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 5–9 scenario, she would take a Subtier 5–6 Chronicle sheet (the lowest subtier for that tier) for running the scenario and set it aside. Once her rogue reaches 5th level, she can immediately apply the Chronicle sheet to her character. This means that GM characters can potentially level up in bursts.
Should a GM receive a Chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between subtiers (for example, if she runs a Tier 1–5 scenario with Subtiers 1–2 and 4–5 but has a 3rd-level character), she must always play down, taking a Chronicle sheet for the lower subtier. This rule is meant to balance the fact that the GM’s character does not have to expend any resources or risk death while gaining a Chronicle sheet for running a scenario.
So, let's say I run a Tier 1-5 scenario for the first time this weekend. I currently have a level 2 monk and a level 5 cleric. I can
- award the GM credit to the level 5 paladin, at subtier 4-5 rewards.
- award the GM credit to the level 2 monk, at subtier 1-2 rewards.
- hold the credit for an as-yet-unplayed PC. As soon as that PC hits the table, it receives full awards, at subtier 1-2.
I cannot wait until the monk gets 9 XP, and then give him sub-tier 4-5 rewards.
If I GM a Tier 3-7 adventure for the first time, I can
- award the GM credit to the paladin, at subtier 3-4 rewards.
- wait until the monk gets 6 XP and then immediately award the GM credit to him, at subtier 3-4.
- do likewise with an as-yet-unplayed PC.
If I am misunderstanding the options, I would be grateful for any correction.
So, let's say I run a Tier 1-5 scenario for the first time this weekend. I currently have a level 2 monk and a level 5 cleric. I can* award the GM credit to the level 5 cleric, at subtier 4-5 rewards.
* award the GM credit to the level 2 monk, at subtier 1-2 rewards.
* hold the credit for an as-yet-unplayed PC. As soon as that PC hits the table, it receives full awards, at subtier 1-2.I cannot wait until the monk gets 9 XP, and then give him sub-tier 4-5 rewards.
The way I have understood it is if you run a tier 1-5 and have both a level 2 and a level 5 character, you can give the chronicle to either character, but the chronicle has to be for the sub-tier that matches the level of the character. And if you already have a character that fits the tier of the scenario, you cannot save the chronicle for a new character, though maybe I am just remembering wording from older versions of the Guide.
If I GM a Tier 3-7 adventure for the first time, I can* award the GM credit to the cleric, at subtier 3-4 rewards.
* wait until the monk gets 6 XP and then immediately award the GM credit to him, at subtier 3-4.
* do likewise with an as-yet-unplayed PC.
And again, the way I have understood it, in this situation you have one character that is tier-appropriate, so that is the character to which you must give the chronicle. But if I am remembering wrong, I am sure that Mark or Mike will eventually post differently.
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Enevhar, I hope you're wrong. That would be disastrous.
Let's say I have only one PC in the 3-7 Tier range, a 5th level cleric (14 XP) I'm hoping to play in an upcoming Tier 1-5 scenario. So, if I'm asked to GM a Tier 3-7 scenario in the meanwhile, you would assert that my only two options are to (a) throw away the GM credit entirely, or (b) level that one character out of tier for the 1-5 scenario. I should, of course, refuse to GM that Tier 3-7 scenario until I get to play.
When you GM a scenario, you use the PFS number of the character you want to assign the chronicle to. It makes no difference what other characters you have or what level they are. The system doesn't even know about them. The only character that matters is the one that has the number that you reported for your GM credit.
NOW. If that character fits into a subtier, you must apply the chronicle at that subtier. If not you must play down if it is between subtiers or wait to apply it if the character is below the lowest subtier.
Nowhere does the Guide ever tell you that you have to apply a GM chronicle to any specific character you have. It starts the description assuming you have already chosen the character you plan to apply it to.
Chris,
Yeah, some of the problem with this is the reading between the lines we are expected to do or the assumption that everyone will understand the rules the same way without there being an explicit example in the Guide beyond that level one character. I am also going on memory of what has been posted in the past by the various PFS heads, so I may be getting a little blurring between what a player versus what a GM can do with their characters.
As to your latest example, while it was not spelled out in the Guide, I do remember discussions over whether you could just save a chronicle til you got around to making a character to apply it to or if you had to have a character to designate as the one receiving the chronicle at the time you earned it and reported it. I think this was one of the things discussed near the end of Josh's time as head and it was one of the clarifications that was lost in the transition to Hyrum.
Wait, what? I knew the "or less" was an error, but I don't remember hearing anything about the number being 5 instead of 4. Can you hook me up with a link?Even though this has been clarified in other threads, in case someone reads this one and not those, and since the table in the Guide has not been fixed yet as of this date, this is incorrect. You need at least 5 Fame to buy anything that is not on the Always Available list or from a Chronicle sheet.Quick clarification:
The Fame threshold for buying things costing 500gp or less is 4 Fame, not 5. So two scenarios with full Fame (such as a pair of GM credits) would get him to that threshold while he's still at level 1. So he may not have been cheating there.
Hey Jiggy,
I had to go back and look at Mark's post about this and re-read the wording in both versions 3 and 4 of the Guide and I caught what was confusing me. And yes, the minimum Fame to buy items not always available is 4, not 5. I was interpreting the table to mean that you had to have more than 4 in order to do that and not at least 4.
On that note, I would really recommend to Mark and Mike that Table 5-3 be adjusted to list a Fame range for each spending limit, listing them as 4-8, 9-12, 13-17, etc.
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You guys are making it much more confusing that you need to.
What Sub-Tier you run the scenario does not matter one bit with what Characters you give the credit to, if you run a Tier 1-5 scenario at sub-tier 4-5 you can give the credit to your level 2 or 4.
Only rules that matter are the character that gets the credit must fall within the tier of the Adventure, if you run a higher Tier then the PC you "hold it" until you character reaches the level of the lowest sub-tier.
If your character falls between sub-tiers you give Give the credit of the lowest of the 2 sub-tier (Level 3 PC in the above example would get Sub-Tier 1-2)
Since there are no rules deciding on not giving your self GM credit, I will not comment on that.
Since there are no rules deciding on not giving your self GM credit, I will not comment on that.
Is it even possible to report a game without selecting a character to credit and later going back and putting one in? I thought you had to credit a character when you reported the game (or just wait to report it which is no good).
I meant, is it possible to reopen the game and apply the GM credit to a character later?
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This I did not consider. So when i run a bunch of scenerio's, I can just pile them up and apply them in any order? example 1]3-4 2]3-4 3]1-2 4]1 5]3-4 6]1-2 7]1 71 8]1-2 9]1 10] 3-4. So I run 10 scenerio's in this order, but I just sit them in a pile. Than i sort by low to high and Bam 4th level character? This would be easier than me choosing evrey time I run, ecspecialy when I mess up and put chronicles in the wrong PC"s folders
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Folks, let's remember the point of this system...To reward GM's for giving their time, money, etc. to run games for the rest of us. That can be, depending on the scenario (tier, maps, special environments, etc), a huge investment. The point is not to screw a GM outta getting rewards.
Perhaps Mike should clarify a few of these questions either in the FAQ or the upcoming 4.1 release of the Guide. Either way, the intention is that the GM be able to apply credit in such a way that s/he can continue to play with the group without lagging behind, whether that be by creating a new PC or applying the credit to an existing one.
Please don't use the rules to "game" the system. Be mindful of the spirit of the system and you will be fine.