Clarification on racial weapon proficiency

[dhemery]

I'm a GM starting a new campaign. I'm trying to parse the rules about racial weapons--e.g. "Elves... treat any weapon with the word 'elven' in its name as a martial weapon."

One player in my game insists that the rule automatically gives all Elves proficiency with such weapons. For example, he thinks that any Elf would, by that rule, be proficient with the Elven Curve Blade, normally an exotic weapon.

I interpret the rule differently. I read it as saying that the Elven Curve Blade is, for Elves, not an exotic weapon, but a martial weapon. But that does not, in and of itself, make every Elf proficient with the weapon. In order to use the weapon proficiently, the character would have to gain the required martial proficiency in some other way--either by via a class-granted proficiency or by taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

So the level 1 Elf Magus in the group would be proficient with the Elven Curve Blade by virtue of Magis' proficiency in all martial weapons. But the level 1 Elf Rogue in the group, not having (by class) any special proficiencies with martial weapons, would not be proficient, unless he took the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat.

Of course, being the GM, I could decide this by fiat, regardless of the rules. But I would like to know: What is the intention of the rule about treating racial weapons as martial weapons?

[Name Violation]

You got it right. Elves are automatically proficient with longswords and bows, and treat "elven" weapons as martial rather than exotic.

[Wolf Munroe]

You are correct. Elves would still have to have martial weapon proficiency to use a weapon with Elven in its name that is normally an exotic weapon. They do not gain proficiency with the weapon, only get to treat it as a more common proficiency because in their culture it isn't nearly as exotic.

So elven rangers, fighters, magus, etc., with the martial weapon proficiency would be able to use it, but an elven wizard, rogue, and so on, would need to take the appropriate feat still.

[Diego Rossi]

Your interpretation is exactly how the rule is written.
If you are an Elf, Dwarf ecc. and you have martial weapon proficiency you know how to use the weapons with elven or dwarven in their name.
If you don't know how to use martial weapons you don't know how to use those weapons.

[Morgen]

You are 100% correct. You might want to find out exactly why your player seems to think what they do as there isn't much illusion to the idea they are proficient with everything.

They've got a very specific list that states they are proficient and it's been worded very clearly.

If they absolutely must be proficient with a particular weapon, suggest the Heirloom Weapon Trait, the Half-elf alternative racial trait Ancestral Arms, multi-classing into a class with martial proficiency or simply picking up martial or exotic weapon proficiency feats.

[Dolanar]

This is the way all of the Racial Weapons work. It truly benefits the classes that get Martial Weapon Pro's most, like fighter types, since they'll automatically be proficient. Although with a word with the player I could see certain weapons being added to a class list as a "specialty weapon" such a the "Elven Curve Blade" for the Thief class, but that would however be a house rule.

[LazarX]

Actually racial weapon bonuses come in two types.

Proficiency, in which everyone of a race knows the weapon use at first level... Elves and longswords. This is usually restricted to those that are martial weapons.

Familiarity, In which the exotic weapons of a particular race are treated as martial weapons for that race so those whose class includes martial weapons proficiency would know the use of those weapons but those who don't have such have the normal penalties. i.e. Dwarven urgosh, Elven Curve Blade. All Elven fighter types know the curve blade, but elven single class wizards still face a -4 in using it.

[Tilnar]

Just to add to the chorus, your interpretation is the correct one:

PRD wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.

The free proficiencies are longbow, shortbow, longsword and rapier. *Plus* Elven Curve Blade = martial weapon, so any class that gets martial weapons can also use that -- classes that don't can use a proficiency.

[The same with dwarves -> Battleaxe, warhammer, heavy pick are free, so all dwarves can use 'em, while classes with martial are also proficient with the waraxe - giving them a 1-handed d10 weapon.]

The fact that the wording changes before "any weapon with 'elven' in its name is not an accident -- it's not on the list of free proficiencies.

[dhemery]

Tilnar wrote:

The fact that the wording changes before "any weapon with 'elven' in its name is not an accident -- it's not on the list of free proficiencies.

The specificity of the language was the big clue for me. Those Paizo folks are very precise with their language.

[Stynkk]

dhemery wrote:

The specificity of the language was the big clue for me. Those Paizo folks are very precise with their language.

^ This is very good to remember. The language of some rules is very very precise, it is wise to pay attention to the details.

[PhoenixMark]

I am the player in question, and yeah... I was wrong. Probably a case of "thats the way we (my other gaming groups) have done it forever", a misinterpretation of the rules that I took for granted. Giving it thought, it makes perfect sense, both from a campaign standpoint and within the rules. I appreciate all the feedback, it helps.

Mark

[Name Violation]

dhemery wrote:

Those Paizo folks are very precise with their language.

i hope this is sarcastic. See vital strike and favored class bonus arguments. those may change your opinion. Quite a few slip ups get threw.

I love how they actually take the time and effort to respond to us on the forums, give us insight to RAI, and make FAQ/errata relatively quickly.

They aren't perfec, but no one is. But they are great at communicating with their customer base and helping us get clarification on a lot of troubling issues (most of the stuff in the FAQ section, or later printings of books being updated).

[Interzone]

I disagree with the above...
Though there are some exceptions, obviously, I think they ARE very precise with their language, with many words having very specific meanings, and usually very clear when words are being used without specific meanings.
A couple slip-ups, yes, but not enough to say that they are NOT precise.

I definitely agree on the points about communicating with the customer base, I wish more companies out there were that involved
:)