I was going to post my opinion but I am curious if anyone is on the same page as me and can guess why I think Words of Power proves that Paizo is on the right track with Pathfinder as living roleplaying game system?
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Because of the cinnamon swirls in every bite?
Because of the cinnamon swirls in every bite?
Mmm, cinnamon!
Because of the cinnamon swirls in every bite?
Hahahahaha!
I don't know about anyone else, but I like the fact that conceptually, there is finally a framework that metamagic works in without blowing up the entire vancian system. I haven't had a chance to actually try it yet, but it definitely seems on the right track.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like the fact that conceptually, there is finally a framework that metamagic works in without blowing up the entire vancian system. I haven't had a chance to actually try it yet, but it definitely seems on the right track.
See not nuking the vancian system from orbit is where I see it coming short. It is an interesting hybrid/ next step and with any luck may be a spring board for some other alternative magic systems.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like the fact that conceptually, there is finally a framework that metamagic works in without blowing up the entire vancian system. I haven't had a chance to actually try it yet, but it definitely seems on the right track.See not nuking the vancian system from orbit is where I see it coming short. It is an interesting hybrid/ next step and with any luck may be a spring board for some other alternative magic systems.
As much as I don't like the Vancian system at times, completely nuking it was what upset a lot of people about 4E. By trying to create a hybrid system that leaves open the possibility of eventually developing into something different while keeping the possibility of maintaining the current structure as long as it is wanted/needed, Paizo has done a much better job in my opinion of finding a good balance.
4th edition didn't completely abandon the vancian system. there are still aspects of it that remain.
As much as I don't like the Vancian system at times, completely nuking it was what upset a lot of people about 4E. By trying to create a hybrid system that leaves open the possibility of eventually developing into something different while keeping the possibility of maintaining the current structure as long as it is wanted/needed, Paizo has done a much better job in my opinion of finding a good balance.
I would agree and that's what makes it a good spring board. By the time a 2.0 occurs this MAY smooth over the introduction of a non-vancian option/parallel casting process.
i would prefer a spell point based system with a mechanic for said spell points recovering over time. it sounds more immersion friendly than the vancian system we currently have going on. a modification of 3.5 edition psionics. maybe with fewer but more versatile spells (kind of like words of power) where the spells are cast on the fly from a small list.
i would also rather have every class have access to at least some of these supernatural gifts. by giving every class some supernatural qualities, we can lessen the gap between combatants and casters.
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4th edition didn't completely abandon the vancian system. there are still aspects of it that remain.
It's close enough to abandoned. (And I'll leave that at that in hopes of not fueling an edition war.)
Personally, I really like Vancian casting. I don't think I'll play a fantasy RPG that doesn't include it.
by supernatural gifts, i don't neccessarily mean spells. and i dislike how 4th edition made everything the same.
i'd like there to be supernatural gifts for everyone. maybe not neccessarily in the form of spells.
maybe more Animesque, Mythological, Heroic, and Cinematic stuff for noncasters. it could be disguised as mechanic similar to spells if you want.
like slicing the air to create a ranged shockwave or a mechanic for shrugging off any harmful condition (thus ending and curing it's effects) ala iron heart surge for example.
Beowulf swam for 6 days in chainmail and fought a seaserpent
Heracles swum the styx with appearantly no ill effect
Kenshin Himura could stun a guy for multiple rounds with a single left step followed by a draw of his reverse bladed sword (without a saving throw)
Anji the Myouou could use both sets of knuckles on a single hand to punch through the greatest of castle walls as if he wear tearing through nothing but rice paper.
Edit; i trimmed my post a little. but yes, i do want something along the lines of Wuxia.
...ala iron heart surge for example.
Ah, Iron Heart Surge. I love being able to stop time, the sun, and gravity. Yeah, good Times...
Killing a young dragon with a sword is about as realistic as destroying an M1 Abrams with a sword. Yet, fighters do it. What's more, fighters can kill ancient dragons with swords. And, somehow, that's believable. People don't bat an eye at that. We accept that fighters aren't normal people. So, why bat an eye at IHS?
I was being facetious. But if you think that killing dragons with swords and ending the existence of the sun with "mental strength and physical fortitude" are equally believable than that's cool. I like Spiral Power too :)
IHS doesn't end the existence of the sun. It can end the effect of heat stroke on you, but that's about as close as it gets.
Eh...Read this
How did this become a discussion about stuff entirely unrelated to Words of Power?
Although if you want a non-vancian magic system that is still d20ish, I love the magic system in 4th edition Talislanta. (Available as a free download at talislanta.com)
You do realize that by saying ".., but..", it implied that everything after the "but" was no longer meant facetiously?
Try reading it in the voice of Andy Richter or professor Fonzworth or something. Maybe that will help. 'But' I'm actually dyslexic (no joke there) so my writing skills are very poor. So you will have to excuse the mistake. ANYWAY...I'm done derailing the thread now.
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by supernatural gifts, i don't neccessarily mean spells. and i dislike how 4th edition made everything the same.
i'd like there to be supernatural gifts for everyone. maybe not neccessarily in the form of spells.
maybe more Animesque,
Edit; i trimmed my post a little. but yes, i do want something along the lines of Wuxia.
...and you lost me. Its not that I dont like those things I just dont see them in Pathfinder. I would look to BESM or Anima (which looks really cool) for Animesque. However I could stand to listen to you talk a little bit more about the "cinematic stuff."
And I'd rather have a DC based system whose primary constraint comes from action economy vs. the threat of failing the DC.
This is an interesting idea, make spell casting like other attacks. Roll your d20 against the DC to successfully hit the target. Also, more powerful spells could be higher DC, however the more powerful spellcaster could of course get better bonuses to his spellcasting. Then you could set the negatives based on the targets ability to resist spells. No more saving throws in spell casting. You could also include fumbles in spell casting.
However I dont know that I would want the current system completely replaced by this...as I already think the cantrips/orisons should be limited to 3 per day.
I was going to post my opinion but I am curious if anyone is on the same page as me and can guess why I think Words of Power proves that Paizo is on the right track with Pathfinder as living roleplaying game system?
I can't guess.
Personally, I think it's an interesting failure.
Reaper Miniatures
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And I'd rather have a DC based system whose primary constraint comes from action economy vs. the threat of failing the DC.
This is an interesting idea, make spell casting like other attacks. Roll your d20 against the DC to successfully hit the target. Also, more powerful spells could be higher DC, however the more powerful spellcaster could of course get better bonuses to his spellcasting. Then you could set the negatives based on the targets ability to resist spells. No more saving throws in spell casting. You could also include fumbles in spell casting.
However I dont know that I would want the current system completely replaced by this...as I already think the cantrips/orisons should be limited to 3 per day.
You picked up what I was alluding to pretty quickly especially given that I didn't post much about it.
We've been talking about alternative systems, not replacement systems. So, I wasn't suggesting that this replace the current system. As a side note, I do think that 4E should replace it's at will/encounter/daily system with this approach.
Interesting. So spellcraft rolls would replace your attack roll - make the spellcraft roll for every spell, that's the DC of the save (or, to borrow a concept from 4e, spellcraft roll versus a static fort/ref/will defense) instead of it being based on BAB.
As long as certain classes had it such that spellcraft's key ability was INT/WIS/CHA, instead of it always being INT, that could be really fun.
Now are you also trying to tie in some WOP flexibility, or just going with the pre-printed spellbook, but making it spellcraft based?
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I will never stop finding it hilarious that Hercules and Beowulf are seen as "anime-esque" or "wuxia"
I've always liked the Infinite Domains magic system, if anyone has seen that. Spellcasting is a skill, just like any of the other combat skills. So, in Pathfinder, it would be either the equivalent of a DC system similar to what LilithThrall is suggesting, or a "magic base attack" similar to 4e.
Spells had an action element and a target element, and then modifier effects, similar to Elements of Magic (another favorite of mine already mentioned). So, a spell might be something like Break + Bone + Range (3), which would determine it's cost. That system had everything using a fatigue cost though, including weapon use. So, a spell tends to use up a lot of fatigue, say 10 pts, vs swinging a sword once might be 2 pts. Fatigue recovered with rest at a rate similar to CON score per hour.
Another thing I liked is that you got a bonus to your skill for "known spells", which were similar to Elements of Magic. So, you could weave a spell on the fly, and have a poor to ok chance of getting what you want, or go to your standby known spells, which would have an ok to good chance, but be more predictable and less tailored to your situation.
It was pretty math heavy, but I'm a number cruncher, so I loved it. Might not fly with the Pathfinder crowd, as a lot of people seem to think chargen is complicated enough as it is.
How did this become a discussion about stuff entirely unrelated to Words of Power?
I think because there's not a lot to say about Words of Power.
It's there. A DM or player can use it if they want. But it's to free form to use in either Society play or an Adventure Path and there's no indication that Paizo is going to do much more to support it.
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I will never stop finding it hilarious that Hercules and Beowulf are seen as "anime-esque" or "wuxia"
If you respect tradition at all, you´d know to use the correct pronunciation,
namely ´Harukurarisu´ and ´Beowarufu´ (preferably with honorific forms) ;-)
See not nuking the vancian system from orbit is where I see it coming short. It is an interesting hybrid/ next step and with any luck may be a spring board for some other alternative magic systems.
+1
This is the page I'm on.
I will never stop finding it hilarious that Hercules and Beowulf are seen as "anime-esque" or "wuxia"
they fall under mythological and cinematic.
which blends rather nicely with Wuxia films and Anime.
i don't like playing generic red shirt castle guard number #24
give me something more epic, something worthy of at least a novel.
I will never stop finding it hilarious that Hercules and Beowulf are seen as "anime-esque" or "wuxia"they fall under mythological and cinematic.
which blends rather nicely with Wuxia films and Anime.
i don't like playing generic red shirt castle guard number #24
give me something more epic, something worthy of at least a novel.
Speaking of Hecules and anime...I will never stop finding it hilarious that Hercules and Beowulf are seen as "anime-esque" or "wuxia"they fall under mythological and cinematic.
which blends rather nicely with Wuxia films and Anime.
i don't like playing generic red shirt castle guard number #24
give me something more epic, something worthy of at least a novel.
Someone has good taste in anime at least!
The more I think about it the more I like how Combat and Magic are both two different systems in Pathfinder. It gives each a unique flavor and creates a cool seperation. This goes all the way back to the mysteries that we explored in AD&D 1e, if you get what I am saying? Remember looking at those charts and all those alternate rules and saying "Wow, this is a big deal because it is handled in a different way than everything else." I know, we were 10, but I am just saying!
The more I think about it the more I like how Combat and Magic are both two different systems in Pathfinder. It gives each a unique flavor and creates a cool seperation. This goes all the way back to the mysteries that we explored in AD&D 1e, if you get what I am saying? Remember looking at those charts and all those alternate rules and saying "Wow, this is a big deal because it is handled in a different way than everything else." I know, we were 10, but I am just saying!
The problem now is that they bleed into each other, or rather magic uses a fair amount if combat, but combat uses very little magic. This makes things lopsided.
It also rubs against the core of the system "roll a d20 add bonuses, see if you succeed".
4e got some stuff, inverting the Saves to a form of AC changes the relationship of the roll and makes it more combaty. Which in turn makes it easir to make combat magicy. Although this switch also exists in Unearthed Arcana and is OGL.
As I point out almost constantly magic is basically a 1/day special ability that can be swapped out. Start giving these to fighters in the form of feats (swappable abilities with varying mechanics) and watch the gap close. Or start threading casters like the over ability packed classes they are.
I do NOT want combat to be a bunch of 1/day special abilities! This is one of my biggest complaints about 4e. It breaks suspension of disbelief.
I agree with this. The difference between combat and the magic system makes it feel like 'realistic fantasy' if that even makes sense to some.
As I point out almost constantly magic is basically a 1/day special ability that can be swapped out. Start giving these to fighters in the form of feats (swappable abilities with varying mechanics) and watch the gap close. Or start threading casters like the over ability packed classes they are.I do NOT want combat to be a bunch of 1/day special abilities! This is one of my biggest complaints about 4e. It breaks suspension of disbelief.
Yeah no one has 1/day abilities..., like Smite Evil (dislike Paladins?)
Or is it just te idea that multiple people have 1/day abilities?
Yeah no one has 1/day abilities..., like Smite Evil (dislike Paladins?)Or is it just te idea that multiple people have 1/day abilities?
Its the idea of everyone being treated the same.
As I point out almost constantly magic is basically a 1/day special ability that can be swapped out. Start giving these to fighters in the form of feats (swappable abilities with varying mechanics) and watch the gap close. Or start threading casters like the over ability packed classes they are.I do NOT want combat to be a bunch of 1/day special abilities! This is one of my biggest complaints about 4e. It breaks suspension of disbelief.
I don't like how 4e addressed the issue either that's why I blew off Wizards back in '07, but 4e or not it doesn't change what you have. One class with I'd say about 1 to 4 static at will abilities (of very limited mechanical range) vs a class with upwards of 36 swappable 1/day abilities with a very wide scope in what they can do.
This will vary depending on the class but in hope you get the point and stop thinking as caster spells slots as "freebies" of a level. Count them as what they are and the "why" of the disparity between caster and non-casters exists. A BIG gap in total abilities, especially in the mid to late game.
I am NOT saying that Paizo could have done anything about this in Pathfinder and keep backwards compatibility.
To bring this back around to topic... I do hope that Paizo will build up the combat maneuver check system with a Words of Power style system to tweak effects based on DC and intended result. A Combat of Power that would let a Fighter send a foe flying (bull rush) and have them land on their back (Trip). Currently this doesn't exist. What would be BAD is a static Feat that does this.
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Another thing that I don't think has been addressed yet is where skill classes could benefit. Without straying into things like 4th Edition, i would like rogues to have the ability to have class features that increased or magically supplemented their uses of skills. For example: a rogue talent which for X rounds / day gave you the benefits of Invisibility, or a truestrike talent.