I'm considering a rogue when I start this AP in a few weeks. My current thought is for a standard two-weapon, finesse sort, though I might be swayed by the ideas of a Varisian who uses a bladed scarf.
My question is, would it be worth my while to do a one-level dip into Sorcerer (I assume the answer would be yes), and, if so, would it be worth it to do a four-level dip to get the second bloodline power and second level spells (much more problematic in my mind, since it means sacrificing 2d6 of precious, precious sneak attack damage)? And is this sort of build even worthwhile in this AP?
I would suggest a full dip into Sorcerer. As in, if you're going to put any levels into it, to just go full Sorcerer. If you want to be a rogue, go and stay full rogue.
It's not worth it to do a level dip into Sorc. You get a very tame bloodline arcana, maybe a class skill (you have almost all of them), some first level spells and a +2 to will saves. In return, you lose sneak attack dice progression, skills (6 skill points), progression on trap abilities and progression on rogue talents.
Is it worth a level for +4 AC for 10 rounds-- assuming you take shield? No. Buy a wand of shield.
You might find some sections of Carrion Crown frustrating if you focus exclusively on sneak attack damage. On the other hand, I'm not sure your dip into sorcerer would help either.
Have you thought about a ranger/sorcerer cross? That might afford some more interesting synergy between abilities. Plus you can choose favoured enemies that suit the campaign.
I would suggest a full dip into Sorcerer. As in, if you're going to put any levels into it, to just go full Sorcerer. If you want to be a rogue, go and stay full rogue.
It's not worth it to do a level dip into Sorc. You get a very tame bloodline arcana, maybe a class skill (you have almost all of them), some first level spells and a +2 to will saves. In return, you lose sneak attack dice progression, skills (6 skill points), progression on trap abilities and progression on rogue talents.
Is it worth a level for +4 AC for 10 rounds-- assuming you take shield? No. Buy a wand of shield.
I was thinking about the cantrips (useful for a trap monkey/scout type), True Strike (to bring the important attacks home) and Expeditious Retreat (to get into position to make those attacks in the first place). But yeah, the progression loss worried me.
You might find some sections of Carrion Crown frustrating if you focus exclusively on sneak attack damage. On the other hand, I'm not sure your dip into sorcerer would help either.
Have you thought about a ranger/sorcerer cross? That might afford some more interesting synergy between abilities. Plus you can choose favoured enemies that suit the campaign.
I do have an urban ranger idea in mind that would do a lot of what the rogue could do, though I'd lose the charisma skills with the build I have in mind.
I am curious about what I might be facing that is immune to sneak attack damage though, since so few things are in Pathfinder -- it's pretty much elementals and oozes. But I said I wanted this to be non-spoilery so I don't want to know. :-)
I agree with Titan. It's not worth dipping into a spellcaster class with the rogue, especially not a caster who's a level behind with spellcasting. The only rogue who should dip into arcane is the one who'll be taking levels of Arcane Trickster. And he should take levels of wizard.
With that being said, if you're that dead set on having spellcasting, take Rogue Talents that allow you to, Minor and Major Magic.
Or put skill points into UMD. Dipping into sorcerer makes you lose Attack Bonus, Hit Points, Skill Points, Talents, Sneak Attack, ie. every single thing a rogue needs.
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And for more sorcerer-y goodness, since you seem to have Charisma, you can always try for the Eldritch Heritage feats.
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Although there is no ranger in my current CC game, I keep thinking about how well one would work. The advice given in the Carrion Crown Player's Guide is all solid stuff. The best favored enemy progression would probably look something like
Urban ranger should work very well, but levels you'll be getting favored community will be right close to the levels where you'll be moving along the Adventure Path. Communicate with your GM, and ask what communities you should choose.
I'd always heard it was a good idea to dip into a spellcaster class for a rogue, but I never quite understood why. Now I'm confirmed in my initial prejudice against doing so. LOL I don't really want to dip, because I like the rogue progression a lot, and I'm neutral on having magic -- or at least magic I can't simulate with a decent Use Magic Device roll -- but I wanted to get people's thoughts.
As for the urban ranger, favored communities take the place of my least favorite ranger class ability, favored terrain, so that's a smaller piece of the puzzle. Still, every little bit helps, so I will certainly keep the lines of communication open with the GM should I choose to go that route.
Although there is no ranger in my current CC game, I keep thinking about how well one would work. The advice given in the Carrion Crown Player's Guide is all solid stuff. The best favored enemy progression would probably look something like
** spoiler omitted **
I disagree. Your fourth choice is on 15th lvl and the party is encountering that type of monster on levels 9-11, making it an ideal choice for 3rd favored enemy.
As for second choice, it's a solid one, but the best choice would be:
The best progression would be this:
1st - Undead +2
2nd - Humans +4, Undead +2
3rd - Aberration +4, Humans +4, Undead +2 (or perhaps undead +4 and aberration +2)
4th - Aberration +4, Humans +4, Undead +4, Something other +2
As your GM I advise you to go with a gnome expert.
I was thinking of starting as a Commoner and then doing a three-level dip into Expert. I've got a rockin' build for that...
Also note that my best progression (one in the spoiler) isn't spoilerish in any way other than TYPE of creature you'll run into. I don't consider that a spoiler and when I sat down with one of my players who's playing a Ranger, we came up with the choices together. All of them are listed in Player's Guide anyway, I just helped him choose which 4 of the suggested 6 (animal is a crappy choice in every campaign, really).
And I consider a DM *should* help with the choices, otherwise the PC is wasting a key ability of the class.
Also note that there's no real spoilers in my 'best progression' spoiler, only types of monsters. And all of them are already mentioned in the Player's Guide. What I did with a PC who's playing a Ranger in my campaign was sit down with him and make a selection of which enemies will he take and merely suggested when would be the good time to take them.
I think that every DM should do that when he has a ranger in his party, since making the PC to make the choice could result in him wasting his key ability.
Also note that there's no real spoilers in my 'best progression' spoiler, only types of monsters. And all of them are already mentioned in the Player's Guide. What I did with a PC who's playing a Ranger in my campaign was sit down with him and make a selection of which enemies will he take and merely suggested when would be the good time to take them.
I think that every DM should do that when he has a ranger in his party, since making the PC to make the choice could result in him wasting his key ability.
Apropos of nothing, another character I'm considering is a summoner with a wolf-shaped eidolon composed of solid darkness. The eidolon's name would be Toadkiller Dog (and yes, you refer to him by his whole name or he growls). :-)
Now what we need is a good mercenary company AP...
My Ranger in Kingmaker campaign has a dog animal companion named the same. :D
My recommendation would be:
Undead, +2 (1st)
Undead +4, Humans +2 (for the werewolves) (5th)
Undead +6, Aberrations +2 (10th, probably too late for the Cthulhu book, might want to do Outsiders/Evil in anticipation of the later books)
Undead +8, Other +2 (15th)
If you are allowed to use the 3.5 Feat Extra Favored Enemy, Constructs is an excellent early choice.
For favored terrains, you're going to want temperate forest, urban areas, and dungeons, in reverse order (dungeons first).
If you can get a Weapon of Hunter's Bane (Bane against all your Favored Enemies), do it.
===Aelryinth
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I'm considering a rogue when I start this AP in a few weeks. My current thought is for a standard two-weapon, finesse sort, though I might be swayed by the ideas of a Varisian who uses a bladed scarf.
My question is, would it be worth my while to do a one-level dip into Sorcerer (I assume the answer would be yes), and, if so, would it be worth it to do a four-level dip to get the second bloodline power and second level spells (much more problematic in my mind, since it means sacrificing 2d6 of precious, precious sneak attack damage)? And is this sort of build even worthwhile in this AP?
I would say no. You would fall father back on BAB and have all the armor penalties. If you want the low level spells, up your UMD and get wants.
UMD is your friend.
If you really want spells, did in Alchemist with the vivisectionist archtype, as it stacks with sneak attack.
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Your rogue wants a few spells, especially cantrips, but doesn't want to give up much. A crazy thought is a summoner that uses his eidolon as a flank buddy and lookout.
Eidolon: quadruped, small size, Evolutions: Imp Natural Armor, Skilled(Perception), Skilled(Stealth) Feat: Precise Strike
Stats: AC 18 (22 with Mage Armor), 5 HP, +12 Perception, Darkvision, 10 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 7 INT, 10 WIS, 11 CHA
Shape him into the form of a dog or small cat, and have his job be to move into flank and attack using Aid Another giving you a bonus to hit. He has 40' movement, which should be faster than you. The Aid Another attack action is against a flat AC10, so you have a 40% chance of a +2 and a 60% chance of +4 to hit while he is flanking. Once you reach third level, take Precise Strike yourself, and having the eidolon flanking adds 1d6 precision damage to each of your attacks. So, you are effectively gaining a half level on the sneak attack progression by dipping instead of losing a half level.
The eidolon has +12 to perception and +19 stealth (really! 3 class, 4 size, 1 rank, 3 dex, 8 skilled). It is limited to 5 hp when you only take a one level dip in summoner, but the eidolon can never die. He just blinks out after taking 15 points of damage you would have likely taken otherwise. That still leaves you with your Summon Monster I SLA to throw out speed bump critters as standard actions several times a day. None of those are powerful, but they can make good distractions.
If you take the second level dip, the eidolon goes to AC 20/24, 11 HP, gets evasion and another evolution point. You are now break even on your precision damage progression and get two more spells (1 cantrip, 1 first) to use.
Most people would not expect sneak attacks from a guy that has a glowing rune on his forehead. In other words, you have a more noble profession that you can hide behind in the eyes of public opinion.
You only need a charisma of 12 to get your bonus spell per day, so it is not going to be much of a MAD tax on your point buy. You can cast without arcane spell failure in light armor.
If you want to spend feats, Extra Evolution gets another evolution point. Expanded Arcana gets you another first level spell or two cantrips. Both are usable without having to take another dip level.
Don't dip more than 2 levels. The losses at that point outweigh the gains.
Elyza, that's a really interesting build!
I'm actually not even all that wild about getting the spells, but since I planned on the character having a good charisma I was wondering if it would be worth it to jump into sorcerer for a bit. I've played with a couple of people who stated categorically that every rogue ought to dip into spellcasting; I've never seen the draw myself.
I've played with a couple of people who stated categorically that every rogue ought to dip into spellcasting; I've never seen the draw myself.
I am still new to Pathfinder RPG rules, but unless things have changed significantly since 3.5 in this regard, I would disagree with this their statement strongly.
Undeniably there are spells that are fantastic for a rogue to have and having the ability to cast them yourself is a huge deal. But you have access to and the skill points to keep up the most powerful skill in the game, Use Magic Device. This skill allows you to pay to be a caster while sacrificing NOTHING from your ability to be a rogue.
You do need to understand the limits of the medium from which you are casting though. So, for example, you want spells that don't rely on a saving throw from the enemy as you will have low DCs and you want spells that have long enough duration that they are being cast as low level spells (or that duration doesn't matter or isn't tied to caster level). But that still leaves open a MASSIVE amount of useful spells for a rogue.
My suggestion would be to just keep UMD maxed and get creative!
Sean Mahoney
Dipping a spellcasting class works at 'low' levels, where it allows you to use wands and stuff without a UMD check. at 'high' levels, it's basically useless...you can buy stuff for pocket change with the spellcasting ability, and UMD everything.
The thing to do is dip a level of sorc or something, and then train it back to rogue around level 8-10 when your UMD is high enough, and your friends will never know the difference.
==Aelryinth
My recommendation would be:
Undead, +2 (1st)
Undead +4, Humans +2 (for the werewolves) (5th)
Undead +6, Aberrations +2 (10th, probably too late for the Cthulhu book, might want to do Outsiders/Evil in anticipation of the later books)
Undead +8, Other +2 (15th)If you are allowed to use the 3.5 Feat Extra Favored Enemy, Constructs is an excellent early choice.
For favored terrains, you're going to want temperate forest, urban areas, and dungeons, in reverse order (dungeons first).
If you can get a Weapon of Hunter's Bane (Bane against all your Favored Enemies), do it.
===Aelryinth
As a DM, I wouldn't advise this. Yes, undead are common, especiallymin parts 5 and I suppose 6, but before that, humans and aberrations are more frequent. Also, that +8 to hit and damage is going to allow ranger to drastically overshadow the rest of the party. I've seen it happen in LoF campaign with fire outsiders...
Why dip into the class to get spells when you can just as easily take the minor and major magic rogue talents to gain access to a 0 and a 1st level spell. That in itself qualifies you for the arcane trickster down the line also.
Why dip into the class to get spells when you can just as easily take the minor and major magic rogue talents to gain access to a 0 and a 1st level spell. That in itself qualifies you for the arcane trickster down the line also.
Just letting you know that this is, at least the way the rules are written, not a legal choice, as you gain a spell like ability with the rogue talent rather than a spell, meaning you can't "cast" anything. If I had my druthers, arcane strike would specifically call out these rogue talents as a way to qualify, but this qualifying you for arcane trickster is right out, as it requires a second level spell. Now if only there were still first level spells with expensive material components for this to take advantage of.