So I think that with the requirements for knowledge, the earliest you can get into mystic theurge is level 4. I was wondering if this would work, since I am not exactly a rules lawyer and am just trying to find a way to have a mystic theurge keep up in a low-op game (that will be low level, hence why I want to kick it off with early-entry):
1. Take two levels of sorcerer and one of cleric
1. Find level one spell on both cleric and wizard list
2. Get the trait "Magical Lineage", applying to that spell
3. Heighten the spell to make it a level two spell
4. Magical Lineage makes it only take up a level 1 spot, which you have
5. Now you can haz ability to cast level 2 arcane and divine spells
6. Take Mystic Theurge
7. ???
8. Profit
If this doesn't work, are there any rules-legal shenanigans that could get me into mystic theurge by level 4? (Reason I chose Sorcerer is because with the Empyreal variation of celestial bloodline, its casting is wisdom, same as cleric, giving SAD.
bump. I really hope there is. MT kinda sucks before level 8 or so
3. Heighten the spell to make it a level two spell
A heightened level 1 spell has a higher spell level than normal, but is not a higher level spell.
A better trick is to apply Merciful Spell to a 2nd level spell that you have Magical Lineage for, making it take up a level 1 slot.
I still think that's not rules legal, but it's closer to fulfilling the 'Able to cast 2nd-level spells' requirement.
Well, I have to play something rather weak and in the support role, but with a backup incase things go wrong.
My group is very low-OP. My non-wildshaping archer druid (which was when I didn't know how to play the game at all) was "overpowered", and now that I've read up on how to use casters, I'm trying to find something weaker. It's probably been around six months since the first campaign, and I've probably gotten a lot better since then. (And ultimate magic :D)
And to help the GM, perhaps a few spells memorized to bail the party out of trouble.
Quote: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.
It seems to say that it actually has a higher spell level, so wouldn't that be legal?
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Witch lacks some important buffs and its offence (in terms of hexes) seems too powerful if it can take down a boss in one shot.
It seems to say that it actually has a higher spell level, so wouldn't that be legal?
Actually, it looks like you're right. Spell Level is the level of the spell. I thought heighten was just raising the value for things that depend on spell level (Save DC, Dispel checks, etc.)
Witch lacks some important buffs and its offence (in terms of hexes) seems too powerful if it can take down a boss in one shot.
Agility patron is amazing. Cat's Grace, Haste, Freedom of movement. For hexes, Fortune, Ward, and Healing are excellent party support. And offensively, as long as you don't take Slumber or Charm, you're not knocking anything out in one round, just hampering them. (Evil Eye or Misfortune) You could even fill out your hex list with flavorful yet not really combat useful things like Flight, Disguise, or Tongues.
I think a bard will do what you want, check out the archetypes for bard to flavor it in a way you like. Magician could be a good choice to go for something a bit more caster support.
I think a bard will do what you want, check out the archetypes for bard to flavor it in a way you like. Magician could be a good choice to go for something a bit more caster support.
I second the suggestion for seeing if you like the Bard or any of its archetypes. You can build a bard to be mostly be healing and buffing, but you can also have an offensive spell or two on hand for when you get in to a tight spot.
A slightly off-topic question, but whats the drive to keep the power level down? Is it a setting/style thing for the campaign? Or do you have some mechanically poor players and so are trying to keep the PCs more even in power?
If it is the second one, I'd recommend having you, or someone else who is good with the mechanics, help the mechanically weaker players build stronger characters. You don't have to go all out and fully optimize them or anything, but there is nothing wrong with helping people learn what armors or weapons work well, or how to have a balanced selection of spells, or even how to use their class abilities in cool ways.
Of course, if it is a play-style thing, if everyone is having fun then you are playing it right.
Well, they are players that haven't bothered to read the rules for more than 30 minutes, and don't like it when I point out stuff, so I've given up on that.
This isn't to say that they are heavily concentrated into roleplay either, because one of them likes taking a Lucerne or Meteor hammer ALL THE TIME. And once they tried to stack a buncha improved unarmed strike + superior unarmed strike + natural attack stuff to boost a natural fighting ranger, which I pointed out was not allowed in Pathfinder. Then when I tried to suggest another way to go about it, they called it overpowered and powergaming.
Basically, they are mechanically-poor optimizers that only believe that it is powergaming when I do it. So my only solution is to make it seem like they're doing the "pwning", and then when they are in trouble with an encounter, single-handedly defeat it to save the party from TPK.
Their interpretation of overpowered is anything that is stronger than their characters, which means lots of things. That somehow includes an archer druid that didn't even wildshape or use spells that often.
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tl;dr Main purpose was to find a class that allowed me to help the party consistently (since it's unlikely they would agree to a 15 minute workday just for the caster that "doesn't do anything"), while having enough spell slots to keep a couple "I win, good game" spells in reserve.
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Oh, fighters are tier one. :P
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Well, first off, heighten is "effective level" not "actual level", so I believe it still doesn't qualify.
Second off, if you're single-handedly saving them in poorly played encounters... they're going to keep thinking you're overpowered. Instead of trying to find a way to enter mystic theurge early *and thus increase your power*, why not just enter it normally?
Let your party die because your allies are complainers who don't want to learn the rules. You can always arrange to escape yourself if you must. You could also point them towards the dps olympics threads when they go about rolling up new characters. It might give them some ideas that will allow you to play what you want without feeling like you constantly have to hold the throttle back.
Basically, it sounds like they're mostly tired of you telling them "you can't do this, that doesn't work, do this instead". Putting yourself in the position to then save them in every tight spot isn't going to cause envy at this point, but more irritation. Regardless of the original cause, you're going to have to deal with the situation anyhow. Don't volunteer suggestions to them about their characters unless they specifically ask you for help. Don't bother telling them whether something doesn't work. If you let them make their own mistakes, and only address them when they are directly affecting your character, things'll get better.
As long as you can manage to have fun in the game, then let them have their fun too, even if it means some odd dm rulings.
Okay, thanks for the advice.
Usually when we do character creation, the DM is not around all the time, so he can't answer questions.
Well, first off, heighten is "effective level" not "actual level", so I believe it still doesn't qualify.
Wrong. Every other metamagic increases "effective level" only, but heighten spell increases the actual level of the spell as well. In fact, that's the entire point of it!
Yes, but Heighten Spell does not in and of itself give you 2nd level spell slots, so it does not work to cheat you into Mystic Theurge earlier. Fact is level 7 is the absolute minimum level to be a Mystic Theurge. Period. End of story.
Yes, but Heighten Spell does not in and of itself give you 2nd level spell slots, so it does not work to cheat you into Mystic Theurge earlier. Fact is level 7 is the absolute minimum level to be a Mystic Theurge. Period. End of story.
No, it doesn't give you second level spell slots. However, with Magical Lineage, it does give you the ability to cast a second level spell from your first level slots, and what you need is the ability to cast second level spells.
Magical lineage: "Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
The conditional part of magical lineage is met by heighten spell as well, so those can indeed work together. Its final adjusted level, instead of being 2, would be put down to 1, but the actual level of the spell would still be 2 from the application of heighten spell +1.
RAW, it works. It's ridiculous and I'd never allow it in my games, but there's no RAW reason it shouldn't work.
Edit: the only RAW justification for not allowing this to provide level 4 entry into M.Theurge that I can think of is that it requires the ability to cast level 2 arcane/divine "spells" and you're only able to cast one specific level 2 spell with this combination.
I could see earliest entry into this class at 5. I'm not sure why nobody has brought it up yet, but what about the Magical Knack trait? +2 to caster level in a class as long as you don't go over your hd limit.
So you're a (Cleric or Druid)1 (Magical Knack'd to CL 3 and 2nd level spells)/Wizard 3/MT 1 at level 5. You can cast 2nd level spells from both the classes and have the skills necessary to enter.
Yes, but Heighten Spell does not in and of itself give you 2nd level spell slots, so it does not work to cheat you into Mystic Theurge earlier. Fact is level 7 is the absolute minimum level to be a Mystic Theurge. Period. End of story.No, it doesn't give you second level spell slots. However, with Magical Lineage, it does give you the ability to cast a second level spell from your first level slots, and what you need is the ability to cast second level spells.
Magical lineage: "Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
The conditional part of magical lineage is met by heighten spell as well, so those can indeed work together. Its final adjusted level, instead of being 2, would be put down to 1, but the actual level of the spell would still be 2 from the application of heighten spell +1.
RAW, it works. It's ridiculous and I'd never allow it in my games, but there's no RAW reason it shouldn't work.
Edit: the only RAW justification for not allowing this to provide level 4 entry into M.Theurge that I can think of is that it requires the ability to cast level 2 arcane/divine "spells" and you're only able to cast one specific level 2 spell with this combination.
Because your +1 leveling the spell then -1 leveling the spell its now a 1st level spell.
Also i take the preq to mean you need to be able to cast 2nd level spell not a spell of 2nd level. meaning a spell that for the class is a 2nd level spell.
I always thought the best combo would be Sorceror/Oracle since you would be casting off the same stat(CHA).
Threads entire point was about trying to cheese in as soon as possible.
Yes, but Heighten Spell does not in and of itself give you 2nd level spell slots, so it does not work to cheat you into Mystic Theurge earlier. Fact is level 7 is the absolute minimum level to be a Mystic Theurge. Period. End of story.No, it doesn't give you second level spell slots. However, with Magical Lineage, it does give you the ability to cast a second level spell from your first level slots, and what you need is the ability to cast second level spells.
Magical lineage: "Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
The conditional part of magical lineage is met by heighten spell as well, so those can indeed work together. Its final adjusted level, instead of being 2, would be put down to 1, but the actual level of the spell would still be 2 from the application of heighten spell +1.
RAW, it works. It's ridiculous and I'd never allow it in my games, but there's no RAW reason it shouldn't work.
Edit: the only RAW justification for not allowing this to provide level 4 entry into M.Theurge that I can think of is that it requires the ability to cast level 2 arcane/divine "spells" and you're only able to cast one specific level 2 spell with this combination.
The issue I see is that it may let you cast a spell that is typically 2nd level, but you do not actually have access to 2nd level slots. If all you needed was the ability to cast 2nd level spells, you could just go buy some wands, since a wand containing any spell on your spell list you can automatically use, whether or not you are high enough level to actually cast that spell without the wand.
Being able to use a spell is entirely different for me than having the appropriate level slots available to cast those spells. If you look at the Oracle of Life, he can cast Mass Heal as an 8th lvl spell because of his revelations, but it is still an 8th level spell, not a 9th level spell, which for any other oracle it would be. The spell slot is the important thing.
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I could see earliest entry into this class at 5. I'm not sure why nobody has brought it up yet, but what about the Magical Knack trait? +2 to caster level in a class as long as you don't go over your hd limit.
So you're a (Cleric or Druid)1 (Magical Knack'd to CL 3 and 2nd level spells)/Wizard 3/MT 1 at level 5. You can cast 2nd level spells from both the classes and have the skills necessary to enter.
Magical Knack gives a +2 CL. This makes the spells you can cast more powerful. It doesn't give you the ability to cast spells of a higher level. Cleric 1 with Magical Knack would have CL3 orisons and CL3 1st level spells, but would still have only the spell slots of a first level cleric (which do not include 2nd level spells). The ability to cast spells of a given level is a function of class level, not caster level.
Edited for clarity.
If all you needed was the ability to cast 2nd level spells, you could just go buy some wands, since a wand containing any spell on your spell list you can automatically use, whether or not you are high enough level to actually cast that spell without the wand.
+1
Because your +1 leveling the spell then -1 leveling the spell its now a 1st level spell.
Magical Lineage does not lower the ACTUAL level of the spell, it only lowers the ADJUSTED level of the spell. So you'd be casting a level 2 spell with an adjusted level of 1.
For comparison, an ordinary empowered fireball is a 3rd level spell with an adjusted spell level of 5 (meaning it's a 3rd level spell you cast from a 5th level slot).
Also i take the preq to mean you need to be able to cast 2nd level spell not a spell of 2nd level. meaning a spell that for the class is a 2nd level spell.
A second level spell is a spell of second level. There is no difference between those terms ruleswise.
The issue I see is that it may let you cast a spell that is typically 2nd level, but you do not actually have access to 2nd level slots. If all you needed was the ability to cast 2nd level spells, you could just go buy some wands, since a wand containing any spell on your spell list you can automatically use, whether or not you are high enough level to actually cast that spell without the wand.
Your example does not change the text in mystical theurge so that it requires 2nd level slots. It still just says you need to be able to cast second level spells, and Heighten/Magical Lineage lets you do this with your own spellcasting ability.
There is a difference between casting a spell and using a spell trigger item.
Being able to use a spell is entirely different for me than having the appropriate level slots available to cast those spells. If you look at the Oracle of Life, he can cast Mass Heal as an 8th lvl spell because of his revelations, but it is still an 8th level spell, not a 9th level spell, which for any other oracle it would be. The spell slot is the important thing.
Certainly true. I'm not talking about taking a spell that is ordinarily high level and placing it on a lower-level spell list for a different class or a specific mystery/bloodline/etc. I'm talking about taking a level 1 spell, making it actually BE a second level spell with heighten spell, and then adjusting the spell slot down by 1 with magical lineage. It's actually a level 2 spell, it's just using a level 1 slot.
Because your +1 leveling the spell then -1 leveling the spell its now a 1st level spell.Magical Lineage does not lower the ACTUAL level of the spell, it only lowers the ADJUSTED level of the spell. So you'd be casting a level 2 spell with an adjusted level of 1.
For comparison, an ordinary empowered fireball is a 3rd level spell with an adjusted spell level of 5 (meaning it's a 3rd level spell you cast from a 5th level slot).
Also i take the preq to mean you need to be able to cast 2nd level spell not a spell of 2nd level. meaning a spell that for the class is a 2nd level spell.A second level spell is a spell of second level. There is no difference between those terms ruleswise.
No but intent wise there is, and the OP know that. Otherwise you can take a spell that is on the both caster's list as a 1st level spell and get by. You can also use wands since they allow you to cast spells. Heck even scrolls would work by RAW. The prereqs never say the spells had to come directly from you.
There is a difference between casting a spell and using a spell trigger item.
If you are going strictly by RAW you are casting spell, just with the wand instead of from yourself.
A second level spell is a spell of second level. There is no difference between those terms ruleswise.No but intent wise there is, and the OP know that. Otherwise you can take a spell that is on the both caster's list as a 1st level spell and get by. You can also use wands since they allow you to cast spells. Heck even scrolls would work by RAW. The prereqs never say the spells had to come directly from you.
There's no intent difference between the terms "2nd level spell" and "spell of 2nd level." Whenever either of those terms are used, they refer to exactly the same thing, both rules and intent-wise.
Edit: Looks like wands do let you "cast spells," even if it's not by using a spellcasting ability and it's just activating an item.
If you are going strictly by RAW you are casting spell, just with the wand instead of from yourself.
There is a difference between casting a spell and using a spell trigger item.
True, it looks like not all the wand text refers to "activating" and there's a line about "casting a spell" from a wand. Looks like you guys have found an even easier way to get access to Mystic Theurge RAW.
A second level spell is a spell of second level. There is no difference between those terms ruleswise.No but intent wise there is, and the OP know that. Otherwise you can take a spell that is on the both caster's list as a 1st level spell and get by. You can also use wands since they allow you to cast spells. Heck even scrolls would work by RAW. The prereqs never say the spells had to come directly from you.There's no intent difference between the terms "2nd level spell" and "spell of 2nd level." Whenever either of those terms are used, they refer to exactly the same thing, both rules and intent-wise.
Wands do not allow you to cast spells. They allow you to "use spell trigger item" which is different from "cast spell."
Scrolls also do not allow you to cast spells. Using a scroll functions very similarly to casting a spell, but it is not the same thin. You'd have to be a level 3 Wiz to use 2nd level Wiz scrolls anyway.
The intent was for you to have access to 2nd level spells. This was also tried in 3.5 and shutdown, not by this poster, but by another. If that was not the intent it would not have been shutdown.
PRD:Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
You are casting from a wand. The only thing the prereqs say is that you have to be able to cast the spell. Either that is all that matters or it isn't. Scrolls do have a different language(for the purpose of casting) so they would not work.
RAI the OP is not passing go.
There's no intent difference between the terms "2nd level spell" and "spell of 2nd level." Whenever either of those terms are used, they refer to exactly the same thing, both rules and intent-wise.Wands do not allow you to cast spells. They allow you to "use spell trigger item" which is different from "cast spell."
Scrolls also do not allow you to cast spells. Using a scroll functions very similarly to casting a spell, but it is not the same thin. You'd have to be a level 3 Wiz to use 2nd level Wiz scrolls anyway.
The intent was for you to have access to 2nd level spells. This was also tried in 3.5 and shutdown, not by this poster, but by another. If that was not the intent it would not have been shutdown.
PRD:Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
You are casting from a wand. The only thing the prereqs say is that you have to be able to cast the spell. Either that is all that matters or it isn't. Scrolls do have a different language(for the purpose of casting) so they would not work.
RAI the OP is not passing go.
OP does have access to one second level spell: Heightened Obscuring Mist (or whichever spell he actually takes magical lineage with that's on both lists). That is a second level spell, and he can cast it. It's not a spell on his class list because it's not a spell his class automatically gets, but it's certainly a spell he's capable of casting and it's certainly a second level spell/spell of second level/whatever you want to call it.
I agree that it was not intended for this to work. The oversight was probably that whoever wrote Magical Lineage wasn't thinking about Heighten Spell when they wrote it and so didn't include language to prevent the two working together.
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted
spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also
developed many magical items and perhaps even a new
spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this
greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When
you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its ACTUAL LEVEL AS 1 LOWER for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
Dont know how to bold so i capsed it but there it is actual level as one lower not effective level
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted
spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also
developed many magical items and perhaps even a new
spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this
greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When
you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its ACTUAL LEVEL AS 1 LOWER for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.Dont know how to bold so i capsed it but there it is actual level as one lower not effective level
That makes that trait not worth as much, but it does take care of the MT issue. I think they meant for purposes of what slot it spends, but if the OP wants to use RAW as a loophole then he should have to deal with all of it.
To bold something you use["b] words to be bolded ["/b]
Remove the quotation marks to make it work.
Thanks and it works the same as people thought it did you lower the level of the spell when its metamagiced meaning i can extend mage armor without needing to get to 2nd level spells.
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Well, first off, heighten is "effective level" not "actual level", so I believe it still doesn't qualify.Wrong. Every other metamagic increases "effective level" only, but heighten spell increases the actual level of the spell as well. In fact, that's the entire point of it!
*sigh* Did you even bother to read the entry in the CRB?
Heighten Spell:
.."Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies."
Hence my comment.
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So I think that with the requirements for knowledge, the earliest you can get into mystic theurge is level 4. I was wondering if this would work, since I am not exactly a rules lawyer and am just trying to find a way to have a mystic theurge keep up in a low-op game (that will be low level, hence why I want to kick it off with early-entry):
1. Take two levels of sorcerer and one of cleric
1. Find level one spell on both cleric and wizard list
2. Get the trait "Magical Lineage", applying to that spell
3. Heighten the spell to make it a level two spell
4. Magical Lineage makes it only take up a level 1 spot, which you have
5. Now you can haz ability to cast level 2 arcane and divine spells
6. Take Mystic Theurge
7. ???
8. ProfitIf this doesn't work, are there any rules-legal shenanigans that could get me into mystic theurge by level 4? (Reason I chose Sorcerer is because with the Empyreal variation of celestial bloodline, its casting is wisdom, same as cleric, giving SAD.
No.
Stop being "That Guy"
Here's the RAWkill for this:
from the raw, re: Mystic Theurge:
"Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells."
Even if the one spell that is heightened IS INDEED a second level spell, that is a spell, and not spells.
It looks to me like it can't be done.
Here's the RAWkill for this:
from the raw, re: Mystic Theurge:
"Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells."
Even if the one spell that is heightened IS INDEED a second level spell, that is a spell, and not spells.
It looks to me like it can't be done.
By that logic, a 3rd level generalist wizard with a 12 intelligence could not qualify either because he would have only one 2nd level spell slot. I don't think that is intended.
I thought about that, but he CAN cast 2nd level arcane spellS, just not on the same day.
He would be able to have more than one 2nd level arcane spell in his spellbook, thus meeting the requirement to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spellS.
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... May as well let players get started on their concept before the campaign is a third of the way over.
If the concept is 'a guy who can cast arcane and divine magic' then it can start as early as level 2, just by basic multiclassing (it can technically start at level 1 by taking the right Traits to allow limited cantrip / orison use). The Mystic Theurge levels aren't required for the concept - they're just needed to add power to the concept, which is a different kettle of fish.
It's the same for the Eldritch Knight - you can be a guy with martial and spellcasting skills as early as level 2 via multiclassing (or, again, level 1 via Traits), you just lack the bells and whistles of the prestige class until you qualify for it. All without looking at the Magus class too! :)
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bump. I really hope there is. MT kinda sucks before level 8 or so
Of course it does. At the end you are going to be able to cast any spell from either the arcane or divine spell list.
It should be hard to get there, and you shouldn't do it as well as either class when you do get there.
Because that is the trade off in the design.
bump. I really hope there is. MT kinda sucks before level 8 or soOf course it does. At the end you are going to be able to cast any spell from either the arcane or divine spell list.
It should be hard to get there, and you shouldn't do it as well as either class when you do get there.
Because that is the trade off in the design.
Ciretose is correct. The MT starts off relying on creativity, but at higher levels comes into its own, and I they the number of spells they can cast means they get to cast a lot of higher level spells without running out.