So I'm a relatively new DM (have DMed three dungeon crawls and part of one campaign before) and I'm currently running a short campaign of my own design for Levels 6-10. We've played one game and everyone in the party is currently level 7. There is a Witch, a Cleric of Erastil, a Ranger (Skirmisher and THW Style from the APG), and a Fighter.
Anyways, there's an encounter I'm designing that I need a bit of help with. The basic premiss is that the players enter a Dwarven tomb, but cannot leave through the entrance. Inside the tomb are waves and waves of squishy, but hard-hitting and fast undead. The party must navigate the tomb, keep themselves from being overwhelmed, and eventually find a way out. The way I WANTED to do this encounter was to actually play in the dark with a flashlight representing either a limited source of light, or limited vision for each player in the darkness. None of the players have darkvision, but both the Witch and the Cleric have access to Light as a 0th level spell. This would not be an issue if there were a limit to the number of times they could cast Light, as I would just force them to stay within a 30ft light source, but if they can cast it as many times as they want it breaks that component of the encounter because they can just cast it on the walls, on various object, on whatever, and light the whole tomb. Is there any way to avoid this and keep them in the dark? Or at least limit their light? Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks!
Remember they can only have two lights active at a time (one each).
You can only have one light spell active at any one time.
A tip you may or may not want to give your players
1 light spell cast on someone in the group to give a local light source while the second light spell cast on a pebble that can be thrown ahead of the group to illuminate areas before they get too close. If you can't find a pebble casting light on a copper coin will achieve the same result.
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Your party is apl 7, and you're trying to use the lack of a light source to make things more difficult.
My friend, you're quickly moving into the level range where things like this will be impossible. For example, mundane torches and lamps. You can throw many things at them, but they'll have many tools to counter with as well.
For this scenario, I wouldn't be surprised if the players start pulling out sunrods, lamps, even just flint and tinder while scavenging for materials to make torches. Like tattered clothes wrapped around bones.
However, this is where dm awesomeness comes into play.
You can modify your waves of undead so that each one emits a darkness aura. Every time the skeletons attack, the room darkens... :p
You can also modify the tomb to be cold enough that it is impossible for normal *read mundane* fires to be lit. The undead themselves could be dealing cold damage in turn.
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Well, there's a few things that you can do. First, the Darkness spell can be used: "Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level." And that can be the basis of any number of contrived effects/curses that prevent Light from being used at all.
However, some players get REALLY upset when their spells don't work. My suggestion is that before the players get into the area and the monster-movie madness ensues, you give them some warning and some reassurance that running willy-nilly through the darkness itself will not get them killed.
For example, if they have an NPC/prophecy/clue that tells them the darkness is coming, and that if they make it to some certain chamber by always following a certain drumming/ringing/sound or feeling the wind in quick time (before the sound stops pops to mind) THEN their light spells will work just fine. Have light work until a caster/squad leader mob arrives and wills out their lights. Darkness will only suppress items, but will do so for some time. Suppressed until they get to the special chamber is probably good. Ambient light spells are dismissed from equal darkness. If they waste a few and fight the first couple on even footing, that's fine, it gives them confidence and burns their resources. Make those fights very short and move on. In any event, you can use Darkness to blow out the candles one by one.
But, you want to do a few things to reassure your players. That's the key to making this kind of chase fun for them. Maybe one of their items flickers to life, only to see one of the "at will" baddies at the end of the hall and will out the light as he gestures to his horde. If they run a bit, *reward them immediately* with "the sound is surprisingly louder, you think they may have accidentally spurred you in the right direction." If they are using "other" senses and moving along, reward them with clues, treasures, something to give to an NPC (like the one that told them about the following the sound or wind), or whatever it is that your players like to find. When they start to get really frustrated, let them get to the final room... if they aren't getting the idea, ramming it down their throats will only kill your next inspired scene.
Even if this works well, don't overuse the ploy or the Darkenss. If they want to make a million copper continual lights, let them make a bunch and move on without a lot of comment. After a few months (game sessions) have one of the higher level clergy suggest that they need to be let go as being unseemly. However you do it, just let the players know *later* that you had a scene, they played thought it, and now this is something that will rarely happen.
Thanks all for the responses. I feel like I've worked out some of the kinks. If anyone has further input feel free to share.
Two things I should note are:
1) This is a low magic setting, so few of them have items other than flint that can help.
2) I'm not expecting this to be particularly hard, but I want to reward the players who do better under these circumstances. I think being able to remember the various passageway locations when you can't see the whole map, and taking risks in terms of using terrain would be a fun way to earn a treasure room.
Just remember that darkness imposes some pretty harsh penalties: disallows Sneak Attack and other precision damage, no running or charging, DC 10 Acrobatics check to move more than half-speed, 50% miss chance even if the PCs know what square the enemy is in, loss of Dex to AC plus an additional -2 to AC, -4 on Perception checks and any Strength or Dex check. Your players aren't going to be able to take any CR close to what they could in the light.
Just remember that darkness imposes some pretty harsh penalties: disallows Sneak Attack and other precision damage, no running or charging, DC 10 Acrobatics check to move more than half-speed, 50% miss chance even if the PCs know what square the enemy is in, loss of Dex to AC plus an additional -2 to AC, -4 on Perception checks and any Strength or Dex check. Your players aren't going to be able to take any CR close to what they could in the light.
I was aware of this and was trying to avoid it. After the suggestions in this thread indicated that the darkness spell was the most viable option, and that PCs would therefore be in complete darkness I was going to make the creatures CR3 with double speed (65ft, but can never run or charge). Should I drop it even more?
Your enemy may not be light, but another pair of cantrips:
Arcane Mark
and detect magic. The relevant text is in Arcane Mark alone: they glow and are visible, though possibly not legible, under detect magic. Clever use of arcane mark will let your players mark where they've been and possibly other orienting information as well. Popping on detect magic will let the wizard see the marks without regard for lighting out to 60 feet.Wait, you've got a cleric?
Forget the concept if they're willing to burn a third level spell on Daylight and have the opportunity to prepare spells before going in. (10 min/level so 1:10; 60 feet bright, and another 60 feet of elevated light (dim if starting from total darkness. Does anyone have low-light vision?) If there's a full day of prep time for the adventure the cleric could also cast continual flame on a few objects unless ruby dust is impossible to acquire under the circumstances.
The use of Arcane mark would be clever enough that I'd be happy with it. I doubt that will happen, but if it does good job, Witch!
The daylight would be a little less fun. They will NOT know this encounter is coming, and will probably be low on spells. They are expecting to travel outside in the wilderness facing extreme cold. I would be surprised if the Cleric took daylight BUT it's possible. I wish there were a way to simply hinder the effects of the PCs magic. Perhaps there is? I could make one up but I'm a little afraid of being unfair.
I should note that the Ranger is an Elf (so he has Low Light Vision) and has favored terrain Underground. If he were to shine a little more I wouldn't mind because it would make sense fluff-wise.
Another factor I'm considering is adding a fear causing effect. I let the party choose one player to roll on a quirk table for two extra bonus feats and the Witch landed my coward quirk which makes it pretty much impossible to make saves vs. fear. If I was able to keep certain members panicked, it might slow them down enough to make working with 30ft of light challenging.
Maybe just put in a caster who can cast darkness and controls the undead? Same effect but will feel a bit less this-encounter-just-happens-to-be-built-to-screw-us-overish.
And if they are low magic they are less able to beat a CR they normally could so be careful.
Another factor I'm considering is adding a fear causing effect. I let the party choose one player to roll on a quirk table for two extra bonus feats and the Witch landed my coward quirk which makes it pretty much impossible to make saves vs. fear. If I...Being afraid or panicked is not going to be fun for the witch's player and if you use nonstacking shaken it won't mean much. There won't be many skill checks and witches don't make attack rolls so that leaves saves and concentration checks, which I think fall under the category of ability checks. I don't think witches will be making many other ability checks though. If the Ranger fails a save against fear, though, the party is down a good fraction of its power.
I've got another problem for your lighting situation though. Dancing Lights. Up to four torch-bright lights within 10 feet of eachother is equivalent to a 25 foot radius of normal light with dim reaching out to 45 feet, and it can be moved at up to 100 feet/turn at will with no concentration requirements. And I just double checked. Unless it's been errata'd since the first printing witches' familiars automatically know all cantrips on the witch list. That makes three cantrip light sources, two of which are linked to objects and one of which can go wherever the witch wants. With a non-scaling one minute duration the dancing lights can run out during a long combat, but for looking around they're a far better solution than tossing around a glowing copper piece, meaning both casters' light spells are available for illuminating the melee-space while the witch's dancing lights scout ahead or provide the cleric light to shoot by (assuming a cleric of Erastil is an archer).
Thanks for the heads up. I'd forgotten about Dancing Lights and the familiar. The Witch is a great RPer and rolled on the table because she wanted the quirk, not the feats (the Ranger actually fought really hard to roll, got "slow" which made him always go last in initiative, and was such a baby about it I let him take it back and give the Witch a shot).
I think what I will do is give these enemies an ability where if a certain number of them are gathered (I'm thinking 4) they emanate 20ft. of darkness. What I'm wondering now is what other stats would make these guys balanced. I feel they should have some kind of weakness. Maybe no DR. My goal is to make them hit consistently and hard, hinder the party's movement, but be extremely squishy. Thoughts?
Darkmantles may be the answer. CR 1, can use darkness once per day, live underground. They might have a symbiotic relationship with your undead....they keep the bait darkened, the undead leave some tasty morsels behind.
If this is a Tomb that's been overrun by some evil entity, then an Unhallow spell triggered with a Darkness spell effect would not be out of line.
Put these at key points, so the players suddenly lose access to their light spells at certain 40' radius areas.
Though, I think the horror effect of having a Darkness spell precede a wave of undead attacks could create a certain amount of real fear in the players. You could even have fairly weak undead in that kind of environment, and still have a "challenging" encounter, between having a hard time attacking (miss chance, movement, etc), and the players assuming worse than what's actually out there.
Watch as they deteriorate in front of your eyes..
Some additional thematic thoughts:
- There's an inherent time limit of hitpoints and use-per-day effects, but to drive that sense of urgency home, you can always add a little extra effect. Perhaps a well placed knowledge check (the ranger has underground favored terrain) can tell them their air might run out.. faster if they burn things for light!
- The invincible enemy drives home the feelings of powerlessness. Make them roll a Perception check sometime after combat has happened (especially if they stick around after killing some stuff for a minute or more), and describe to them as the skeletons they killed start to slowly slide back together. Think of it as an "animate dead" effect placed in an Unhallow... 1 year duration, yikes! (Yet another knowledge/spellcraft check to let them in on the terror of this situation).
- Stimulate all the senses. Make it so there's an ever present, low fwumping or beating sound can be heard from all directions. Maybe a slight wind that seems to be coming from changing directions inexplicably (vents in the walls for the knowledge check).
Then, after they are well into the dungeon.. the sound suddenly ceases. Describe the ringing they here as tinitus sets in from the sudden lack of sound.
Perhaps that wind gets stronger and stronger (with the effects of strong wind), or maybe it simply carries the stench of decomposition or decay.
You don't even have to apply actual status effects from this to make it unsettle the players (let alone the characters).
- Darkness has already been mentioned, but it's a great one to play off fear of unknown, and sense of claustrophobia. Make sure your descriptions emphasize at least some of this to keep hammering the dread at the players.
- When creatures do attack, and especially in darkness, have them make aid another checks and combat maneuvers to keep the players guessing at what they might be fighting. If the Fighter keeps getting dragged to the ground (grapple and trip attempts), they'll wonder "WHY are they wanting to do this!?".
- Send in a stark contrast to give the players a jolt. Sudden light source (especially from a ghost or other undead) can give that moment of scare within the dread.
Be careful if you want it to be from a helpful source (say a trapped soul who wants to help them get out), as they might unleash attacks instantly just from the break in tension.
- Speaking of ghosts. One that shows up seeming like it wants to help, only to lure them deeper into peril (at which point it changes and becomes nasty) is a trope for a reason. Do it after doing all these other things, and the players might not even keep their senses to mistrust like they would any other random NPC found in a dungeon.
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Of course, ignore all that if you aren't really going for a Horror themed sidequest.
If this is a Tomb that's been overrun by some evil entity, then an Unhallow spell triggered with a Darkness spell effect would not be out of line.
Put these at key points, so the players suddenly lose access to their light spells at certain 40' radius areas.Though, I think the horror effect of having a Darkness spell precede a wave of undead attacks could create a certain amount of real fear in the players. You could even have fairly weak undead in that kind of environment, and still have a "challenging" encounter, between having a hard time attacking (miss chance, movement, etc), and the players assuming worse than what's actually out there.
Watch as they deteriorate in front of your eyes..Some additional thematic thoughts:
- There's an inherent time limit of hitpoints and use-per-day effects, but to drive that sense of urgency home, you can always add a little extra effect. Perhaps a well placed knowledge check (the ranger has underground favored terrain) can tell them their air might run out.. faster if they burn things for light!
- The invincible enemy drives home the feelings of powerlessness. Make them roll a Perception check sometime after combat has happened (especially if they stick around after killing some stuff for a minute or more), and describe to them as the skeletons they killed start to slowly slide back together. Think of it as an "animate dead" effect placed in an Unhallow... 1 year duration, yikes! (Yet another knowledge/spellcraft check to let them in on the terror of this situation).
- Stimulate all the senses. Make it so there's an ever present, low fwumping or beating sound can be heard from all directions. Maybe a slight wind that seems to be coming from changing directions inexplicably (vents in the walls for the knowledge check).
Then, after they are well into the dungeon.. the sound suddenly ceases. Describe the ringing they here as tinitus sets in from the sudden lack of sound.
Perhaps that wind gets stronger and stronger (with the effects of strong wind), or...
Thanks a bunch! I think I'll incorporate a lot of this.
Darkmantles may be the answer. CR 1, can use darkness once per day, live underground. They might have a symbiotic relationship with your undead....they keep the bait darkened, the undead leave some tasty morsels behind.
I actually might use the darkmantle as the template for my undead. Keep all stats the same except give them permanent darkness if 4 are adjacent, make their speed 50, make their health 14, and make their AC 13 (swap STR and DEX and remove natural armor and size mod). I figure this would make it a CR2 or 3 creature. There is a way to stop the tide but it is extremely difficult.
One trick a former DM pulled on a party I was in-a small leak in the Plane of Shadows, makes all light sources operate at 50% (10 feet of light instead of 20 for a light spell or torch, 15 feet for a lantern, etc.). Could also give you new area to send the PCs to, as they 'accidentally' slip into the actual Plane of Shadows.
One trick a former DM pulled on a party I was in-a small leak in the Plane of Shadows, makes all light sources operate at 50% (10 feet of light instead of 20 for a light spell or torch, 15 feet for a lantern, etc.). Could also give you new area to send the PCs to, as they 'accidentally' slip into the actual Plane of Shadows.
Does this use any RAW, or was it a fluff justification for the magic effect? I'm not familiar with rules for planar "leaks." Either way I like it.
I was a player, not a GM, but I believe he got from a module that he had modified. I'd have to ask him which though, if he even remembers (this was several years ago)
I was a player, not a GM, but I believe he got from a module that he had modified. I'd have to ask him which though, if he even remembers (this was several years ago)
Yeah my previous games have all been modified modules for this reason: they offer simple to borrow, intricate, and unique rules. I'm really wanting to build this whole campaign myself just for the experience (pun intended). The players are all close friends so they're my guinea pigs as I hone my DMing skills. Thanks for the info thus far.
If anyone else has ideas about how this type of thing works please post.
You can also modify the tomb to be cold enough that it is impossible for normal *read mundane* fires to be lit. The undead themselves could be dealing cold damage in turn.
What.
The players are all close friends so they're my guinea pigs as I hone my DMing skills. Thanks for the info thus far.
If anyone else has ideas about how this type of thing works please post.
My advice for what it's worth:
Don't try the 'I want them to do without X' scenarios, as they normally are forced and don't work that well.
Rather embrace what the PCs can do and simply give them the backdrop for their story rather than perhaps something that you want to tell.
-James
I actually really appreciate this advice. As a player I've definitely come across situations where the story seems forced by the GM and the illusion of choice is taken away. I figured if I build the encounter based on some concrete rules, with good experience rewarded for it, it would feel a lot less like "I wanted to take away their light" and a lot more like "your characters could not overcome the darkness in this encounter and had to be creative." Do you think I can achieve this or have I already gone too far. If the characters whip out something unexpected like more light spells or an item I will definitely let it happen, but I want them to feel like they managed to overcome tough odds.
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Is there any reason you feel you have to mechanically justify the area being supernaturally dark? Maybe the place is so corrupt with the undead that it gobbles up the light from those cantrips until they're only the power of a candle. Maybe it's something the undead are doing, maybe it was a huge darkness trap that went off. Your players will likely just be happy with an interesting and fun darkness encounter and less worried about why specifically it gets so dark.
Is there any reason you feel you have to mechanically justify the area being supernaturally dark? Maybe the place is so corrupt with the undead that it gobbles up the light from those cantrips until they're only the power of a candle. Maybe it's something the undead are doing, maybe it was a huge darkness trap that went off. Your players will likely just be happy with an interesting and fun darkness encounter and less worried about why specifically it gets so dark.
I don't want them to feel that I used my GM powers to just take away their light. Obviously if they get into character enough they will just accept it, but some of them have problems with meta and rules arguing and the like.
Generally I'm of the philosophy that the more semblance of rules and restrictions on the GM, the more fun for the players. Maybe the illusion would hold even with no actual justification from me. Alternately, even if I "play by the rules" the players could still complain that I arbitrarily nerfed their powers.
My take on it, may duplicate some or all answers above :
Apply a custom template to the skeletons, called Shadow.
Shadow Template : This template can be applied only to undead, such as Zombies and Skeletons. Increase the undead's CHA and DEX by 2. The creature also gains 1d4 extra damage to all natural or weapon attacks it makes as shadowy negative energy oozes from it. Finally, the creature exudes a preternatural darkness effect from it's body. This lowers the light level by 2 steps out to a number of feet equal to 5' per hit die the undead posesses, and by 1 step out another equal amount (if it's easier, think of it as an anti-torch). Magical sources of light are resistant to this, and are only affected by lowering the level by one level within hit die * 5' of the creature. This increases the CR of the creature by +1.
What this does is make them faster and harder to take down (AC and health), and gives them a small boost on damage. It also means any mundane light sources won't work within 10 feet of a skeleton with this template, and will only give dim light if within 20 feet. A magical light source (such as their 0 level cantrips) will give off dim light when close to them. This get's you what you want, and since it's a supernatural ability, it can ignore most normal light/darkness spell interaction rules.
Second part is make it a dank musty tomb, with constantly dripping water that flows out through small drains in the floor. The walls are covered with lichen, damp to the touch. Everything in the tomb is damp, including them after 10 minutes. This makes the floor treacherous ground (for them and the skeletons) and keeps everyone moving slow and careful. And nothing burns here for long.
My take on it, may duplicate some or all answers above :
Apply a custom template to the skeletons, called Shadow.
Shadow Template : This template can be applied only to undead, such as Zombies and Skeletons. Increase the undead's CHA and DEX by 2. The creature also gains 1d4 extra damage to all natural or weapon attacks it makes as shadowy negative energy oozes from it. Finally, the creature exudes a preternatural darkness effect from it's body. This lowers the light level by 2 steps out to a number of feet equal to 5' per hit die the undead posesses, and by 1 step out another equal amount (if it's easier, think of it as an anti-torch). Magical sources of light are resistant to this, and are only affected by lowering the level by one level within hit die * 5' of the creature. This increases the CR of the creature by +1.
What this does is make them faster and harder to take down (AC and health), and gives them a small boost on damage. It also means any mundane light sources won't work within 10 feet of a skeleton with this template, and will only give dim light if within 20 feet. A magical light source (such as their 0 level cantrips) will give off dim light when close to them. This get's you what you want, and since it's a supernatural ability, it can ignore most normal light/darkness spell interaction rules.
Second part is make it a dank musty tomb, with constantly dripping water that flows out through small drains in the floor. The walls are covered with lichen, damp to the touch. Everything in the tomb is damp, including them after 10 minutes. This makes the floor treacherous ground (for them and the skeletons) and keeps everyone moving slow and careful. And nothing burns here for long.
Super helpful. This is very close to exactly what I'll do. Thanks!
You could unhallow the entire place, and then tie a darkness effect to the unhallow.
If, for some reason, you feel the need to go 'strictly by the book'
I actually really appreciate this advice. As a player I've definitely come across situations where the story seems forced by the GM and the illusion of choice is taken away. I figured if I build the encounter based on some concrete rules, with good experience rewarded for it, it would feel a lot less like "I wanted to take away their light" and a lot more like "your characters could not overcome the darkness in this encounter and had to be creative." Do you think I can achieve this or have I already gone too far. If the characters whip out something unexpected like more light spells or an item I will definitely let it happen, but I want them to feel like they managed to overcome tough odds.Its hard when, behind the scenes, you really did start with 'I want to take away their light' to "find redemption" so to speak.
I would suggest that instead of taking away their light.. have the light attract the enemy in droves. Make having the light on a disadvantage for them. After all it's highlighting and announcing their presence everywhere.
Then regardless of whether they have the ability to cast light at will.. they might not wish to do so.
Add a few (and I mean a few) counters to the low level light spells within the dungeon and I think you'll have a much more memorable 'darkness' than forcing it upon them by deus ex machina.
-James
Haha yeah I'm totally guilty. I'm designing this encounter with one mindset, but hoping my players will see it differently. I think instead of making them attracted to light, I will make them attracted to noise, and then make the place unhallow with darkness, and use the custom "Shadow" template. I think this gives the PCs ample room to invent their own strategy. They could try and sneak in the dark, or use arcane mark, maybe cast silence on themselves. Thoughts?
Actually, I think I will simply make the tomb unhallow with no darkness spell. Then apply mdt's "shadow" template and allow daylight to interact as per normal. I'm thinking that a fast zombie with this custom template should be CR2, and that there should be an additional XP bump for the unhallow. Does this seem reasonable?
Is there any reason you feel you have to mechanically justify the area being supernaturally dark? Maybe the place is so corrupt with the undead that it gobbles up the light from those cantrips until they're only the power of a candle. Maybe it's something the undead are doing, maybe it was a huge darkness trap that went off. Your players will likely just be happy with an interesting and fun darkness encounter and less worried about why specifically it gets so dark.
Maybe some people take blatant GM fiat poorly in a game with so clearly balanced rules. Especially after Paizo went through so great a trouble to change how magical darkness and light worked.
I like the Shadow template, not least because the first inkling the party might have that something is coming might be the dimming of their lights. Very "Shadows in the Library" creepy, plus it gives them a moment of warning that danger is near once they figure out what's happening. Kind of a reverse Sting effect.
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Maybe some people take blatant GM fiat poorly in a game with so clearly balanced rules. Especially after Paizo went through so great a trouble to change how magical darkness and light worked.
And some people enjoy it when interesting things outside of the normal hard rules comes into play or don't need to have every single aspect of the game explained by the rules.
This could be a helpful example of what I'm talking about. You set the scene, you introduce an interesting new mechanic and if everyone has fun then you successfully played the game right.
It would be very challenging to GM without any light at all. How would you see the dice?
It would be very challenging to GM without any light at all. How would you see the dice?
A suggestion if you actually want to do it in the dark.
Get a bunch of those little break open glow sticks. Preferrably all green or blue. Then put the dungeon down, turn out the lights, and set the glowing sticks on the dungeon at various points to represent the glowing lichen on the walls (giving low illumination, say 10 feet for normals, 20 for people with low-light).
Then, you can, as the skeletons come closer, take the sticks off the dungeon, explaining that the glow in the distance is vanishing, and start counting down from ten (and every other number, take off another glow stick). :) Watch them start panicking as they yank out whatever they can get, including frantically casting whatever light spells they have. :)
It would be very challenging to GM without any light at all. How would you see the dice?
Desk lamps + flashlights + using my laptop + GM screen hiding light from the map + I have darkvision. Trufax.
A suggestion if you actually want to do it in the dark.
Get a bunch of those little break open glow sticks. Preferrably all green or blue. Then put the dungeon down, turn out the lights, and set the glowing sticks on the dungeon at various points to represent the glowing lichen on the walls (giving low illumination, say 10 feet for normals, 20 for people with low-light).
Then, you can, as the skeletons come closer, take the sticks off the dungeon, explaining that the glow in the distance is vanishing, and start counting down from ten (and every other number, take off another glow stick). :) Watch them start panicking as they yank out whatever they can get, including frantically casting whatever light spells they have. :)
I like this idea a lot. My main issues with doing this are: 1) I'm using a hex grid, so I'll have to go back and tailor my map to be more straight, and 2) I need to keep very good track of where the zombies are and where the "lichen" was. I think I can do this though. Might make some sort of minimap cheatsheet i can move markers around on to keep track of the horde.
The tomb is going to be VERY confined, so it might make sense to switch to a square grid... maybe...
I wouldn't overdo the darkness angle. The first time or two it comes up, it's a challenge. After that, it can become a pain. Instead of plunging the whole area into darkness, I'd add a few areas of darkness or shadow and some undead that radiate shadow.
While it's good to build within a framework of rules, I like to add curveballs to remind my players that knowing the rulebooks well isn't the same as their characters knowing everything around them. I'd add some objects radiating continual darkness the same way continual flame illuminates an area. I'd make them something the characters could cover up or move, but would make them operate only in the sacred precincts of whatever sinister power manifests in that tomb (Otherwise they'd keep them and use them against other foes...)
To be fair, I'd let interested players research or discover the continual darkness spell if they tried.
Yeah, it's almost better to have it so that special areas are dark, rather than the whole place. It makes the players have an area that "feels safe" and an area that "doesn't". This gives the sensation of trepidation as they have to venture into the unknown.
If creatures radiate darkness, then killing them makes it go away. This gives the whole "oh no, here they come!" feeling, and then a more real sense accomplishment as light comes back when things die.
I wouldn't make every single enemy a shadow creature either. Good to let the players see what they are facing at least once in a while.
In the dark, they only get a sense of what's immediately next to them.
Give that brief moment of light to see that there's actually hundreds of skeletons down that main hall, and you get far more effect out of the darkness you apply later.
*Edit*
Also, it's true.. playing with negatives the entire session can get pretty annoying for some players. Good to keep the darkness a poignant thing (critical encounters) instead of an ever pervasive thing.
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I just want to point out that I love this entire thread. I've wanted to do this kind of thing (not exactly tomb etc.) for years. The glowsticks idea is amazing!
Also, I agree with the above posters on not making the entire tomb this way. Spike the sense of danger as they get closer to the goal. They will settle in with the "regular dungeon crawl" attitude for the first few rooms (or levels) and then be taken aback when their hack and slash world gets weird!
Play up the lichen on the walls though. Allow the PC's to feel comfort from it. Then take it away. Maybe even use a glowing fungus as an enemy?
Maybe it doesn't have to be undead. Just a quick predator in the shadows ala "The Decent" and other creepy dark cave movies. OR undead and quick predators!
Also be aware of weakened floors (yes they are dwarvencraft, but all stone erodes over time) and possibly separate the party to hike the suspense!
Another thought, I use lots of minis, sounds like you do as well.
For the dark emitting creatures, pick some especially nasty looking minis for them when you put them down on the tiles. The players will wonder if that is really what is in the darkness, or not. Such as medium sized dragons (is that a shadow dragon coming at me?), or demons, or hulking medium sized golems (or mix it up and send a large shadow skeleton at them, and use an ogre mini for it). :)
EDIT : Sort of let it represent the wild running imaginations of the characters, imagining the worst in the shadows.
Yeah, it's almost better to have it so that special areas are dark, rather than the whole place. It makes the players have an area that "feels safe" and an area that "doesn't". This gives the sensation of trepidation as they have to venture into the unknown.
If creatures radiate darkness, then killing them makes it go away. This gives the whole "oh no, here they come!" feeling, and then a more real sense accomplishment as light comes back when things die.
I wouldn't make every single enemy a shadow creature either. Good to let the players see what they are facing at least once in a while.
In the dark, they only get a sense of what's immediately next to them.
Give that brief moment of light to see that there's actually hundreds of skeletons down that main hall, and you get far more effect out of the darkness you apply later.*Edit*
Also, it's true.. playing with negatives the entire session can get pretty annoying for some players. Good to keep the darkness a poignant thing (critical encounters) instead of an ever pervasive thing.
I think this is really good advice, and so I'm wonder what your (or someone else's) opinion is regarding some more details for this encounter.
1) This is one out of four or five encounters this session. It is the only one to include any sort of darkness or other conditions with permanent debuffs.2) The players start in a passageway, and the zombies also start in a passageway. There are rooms with multiple entrances with can be sealed off from the passages. The darkness cannot emanate through the doorways, and after a certain amount of time (or maybe when the dispell Light) the zombies leave.
Do you think this achieves these same effects?
I just want to point out that I love this entire thread. I've wanted to do this kind of thing (not exactly tomb etc.) for years. The glowsticks idea is amazing!
Also, I agree with the above posters on not making the entire tomb this way. Spike the sense of danger as they get closer to the goal. They will settle in with the "regular dungeon crawl" attitude for the first few rooms (or levels) and then be taken aback when their hack and slash world gets weird!
Play up the lichen on the walls though. Allow the PC's to feel comfort from it. Then take it away. Maybe even use a glowing fungus as an enemy?
Maybe it doesn't have to be undead. Just a quick predator in the shadows ala "The Decent" and other creepy dark cave movies. OR undead and quick predators!
Also be aware of weakened floors (yes they are dwarvencraft, but all stone erodes over time) and possibly separate the party to hike the suspense!
A lot of the tricks with creepy cave creatures, fungi, and light I will reuse later during an all-underground session (they will not be in complete darkness this time- their lights will work normally almost all the time).
The way I've set this up the tomb is the end of the "crawl." They fight through creatures in blistering cold, including a young frost worm, and are forced to take shelter in this tomb before a) the elements get them or b) mama worm comes back. Then shit hits the fan. Its sort of a fourth act. If they make it through the tomb they find a place to camp.At first the creatures weren't undead just extraplanar, but I want to give the cleric some undead, and since there are far too many enemies to keep channeling, but enough that she might try, it could end up being an empowering but simultaneously demoralizing fight.
I've played a game where the party got separated and we had to play in different rooms. It was a TON of fun, but since I'm not the most experienced DM I want to try it on another day, when I'm not also juggling darkness rules. I fully expect some PCs to lose their bearings without a full map.
The players won't be in complete darkness btw. They'll be in dim light (20% miss chance even for elves, right?), but for only 20ft. I'm thinking of including a dispell magic in the unhallow to dispell daylight.
Another thought, I use lots of minis, sounds like you do as well.
For the dark emitting creatures, pick some especially nasty looking minis for them when you put them down on the tiles. The players will wonder if that is really what is in the darkness, or not. Such as medium sized dragons (is that a shadow dragon coming at me?), or demons, or hulking medium sized golems (or mix it up and send a large shadow skeleton at them, and use an ogre mini for it). :)
EDIT : Sort of let it represent the wild running imaginations of the characters, imagining the worst in the shadows.
I love me some minis, but for this fight I'm going to use plain black chess pawns (yes I have many of them) and a vivid description. I think the players' own imaginations are my best weapon here.