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Let me start by saying I think Rise of the Runelords is a masterpiece. Easily the best AP in my opinion. And the intent of this thread is partially to draw more interest in the AP so that paizo will publish a conversion to current rules in the not to distant future.
But nothing is perfect.
So I wanted to have a thread to discuss what is good and should be left alone and what would be fine to...um...rethink.
So taking it a book at a time, I'll start with Burnt Offerings.
The first encounter is as close to perfect as you can get. Great hook to bring players in, just the right level of tension, and even some foreshadowing. Great stuff.
The side quests after are solid and help build a party dynamic.
The Glassworks is very good.
The Catacombs of wrath are great for flavor but...the Quasit. Invisible with Damage Reduction at that level...our group wanted to slam their collective heads against the wall. Keep the flavor but do something to make the quasit combat less infuriating.
Thistletop (outside) great, love the druid being able to go through the bushes, love all the flavor.
Thistletop (first floor) love all the little flavor bits (pickles, horse, etc...) and it flowed fairly well. Fix the map, however.
Thistletop (2nd floor) Is ok, but really there is no way a party can do all of this in one go, and it seems unlikely the baddies will just sit there as they come back wave after wave...Don't know how to fix this, but it bugged me when I was running it as the players needed a break after the outside and 1st floor, and camping there made no sense, so they go back to town and come back to...exactly. I ended up making the people below come back up to guard in place of the goblins and it worked out fine, but changed the dynamic of the floor a bit.
Thistletop (3rd Floor) Good tough boss battle, nice flavor and foreshadowing, love the Barghast and the hidden rooms.
In short, I don't think much in Burnt Offerings needs to be tweeked, it's a really solid part of the AP.
I'll comment on book two (The Skinsaw Murders) tomorrow, but I want people to be able to post how they feel about the first book first so this doesn't get muddled.
Let me start by saying I think Rise of the Runelords is a masterpiece. Easily the best AP in my opinion. And the intent of this thread is partially to draw more interest in the AP so that paizo will publish a conversion to current rules in the not to distant future.
Seconded. Please oh please, daddy wants a hardback!
As for Burnt Offerings: I've run it twice, and the only thing I would change is to pull in more foreshadowing around/details about Thassilon (sp?) and the Runelords.
Let me start by saying I think Rise of the Runelords is a masterpiece. Easily the best AP in my opinion.
+1
The Glassworks is very good.
The dungeon was great, but I had a slight problem with the Glassworks. The map was set on the grid at an awkward angle which made it difficult the first time I ran RotRL, and I had to shift things around entirely to make hexes fit it appropriately to facilitate combat.
The Catacombs of Wrath are great for flavor but...the Quasit. Invisible with Damage Reduction at that level...our group wanted to slam their collective heads against the wall. Keep the flavor but do something to make the quasit combat less infuriating.
Of of the many times I've run Burnt Offerings for different groups, Erylium (sp?) was always the low point. That fight can drag on for far too long. When I converted her to Pathfinder I made her a Witch, but found that with her natural ability to go invisible and the Summon Swarm spell, she was every bit as difficult to defeat as her 3.5 counterpart. Honestly, I'd replace her entirely with something else for an update, some new minor demon that doesn't have such crazy defenses, or maybe a sinspawn with a class level or two.
Thistletop (outside) great, love the druid being able to go through the bushes, love all the flavor.
Exciting fight; wouldn't change a thing!
In short, I don't think much in Burnt Offerings needs to be tweeked, it's a really solid part of the AP.
And my favorite.
As for Burnt Offerings: I've run it twice, and the only thing I would change is to pull in more foreshadowing around/details about Thassilon (sp?) and the Runelords.
I've added a scripted social encounter with Brodert Quink to inform the PCs of his "crazy theories" which foreshadows Thassilon pretty well before they even head to Thistletop.
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Of of the many times I've run Burnt Offerings for different groups, Erylium (sp?) was always the low point. That fight can drag on for far too long. When I converted her to Pathfinder I made her a Witch, but found that with her natural ability to go invisible and the Summon Swarm spell, she was every bit as difficult to defeat as her 3.5 counterpart. Honestly, I'd replace her entirely with something else for an update, some new minor demon that doesn't have such crazy defenses, or maybe a sinspawn with a class level or two.
Well she is supposed to be a familiar, although the who scribbler subplot could use some work...but that is something to discuss in the fourth book.
It is the only significant smudge in this book. I may be more critical of sections of other books later, but I really do love burnt offerings.
As for Burnt Offerings: I've run it twice, and the only thing I would change is to pull in more foreshadowing around/details about Thassilon (sp?) and the Runelords.I've added a scripted social encounter with Brodert Quink to inform the PCs of his "crazy theories" which foreshadows Thassilon pretty well before they even head to Thistletop.
I like this idea.
Of of the many times I've run Burnt Offerings for different groups, Erylium (sp?) was always the low point. That fight can drag on for far too long. When I converted her to Pathfinder I made her a Witch, but found that with her natural ability to go invisible and the Summon Swarm spell, she was every bit as difficult to defeat as her 3.5 counterpart. Honestly, I'd replace her entirely with something else for an update, some new minor demon that doesn't have such crazy defenses, or maybe a sinspawn with a class level or two.
Well she is supposed to be a familiar, although the who scribbler subplot could use some work...but that is something to discuss in the fourth book.
It is the only significant smudge in this book. I may be more critical of sections of other books later, but I really do love burnt offerings.
The Scribbler could also have had Mephit which would have had fewer defenses and not been such a pain in the neck; Mephits also have a variety of personalities, I think one would fit pretty good in there somewhere. Come to think of it, my PbP group is nearing the glassworks, perhaps I'll test out the swap...
I like this idea.As for Burnt Offerings: I've run it twice, and the only thing I would change is to pull in more foreshadowing around/details about Thassilon (sp?) and the Runelords.I've added a scripted social encounter with Brodert Quink to inform the PCs of his "crazy theories" which foreshadows Thassilon pretty well before they even head to Thistletop.
It fits in well whenever- bumped into during the festival (perhaps during the games), when needing sagely advice at the Curious Goblin, or even a quick delivery from Alma Avertin with the promise of a delicious pie as a reward where the PCs find out why she didn't want to deliver it herself (Quink is wierd).
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+1
A hardback for the whole AP, converted to Pathfinder, with bonus material and behind the scene sidebars would be awesome! Like a proper commemorative collectors special addition. Then they should do gold plated ones signed by the paizo staff and auction them off for charity. That would be fantastic. I would not only buy a copy but bid on the special edition.
In general, foreshadowing of later episodes (3-6) in the earlier ones (1-2).
more reasons to go to the runewell, like oh, the world will end soon because of this crazy wizard.
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Id buy a hardback.
In general, Id like to see more of the roleplay encounters (Like "The Shopkeeper's Daughter", etc) like Burnt Offerings has alot of. It seems like as you go through the campaign, it moves more from one fight to the next, leaving any roleplaying to be done completely freeform by the GM. Not neccessarily a bad idea, but this is an AP, not a homebrew. (Example: other than finding out about 'Paradise' in Turtleback Ferry, I feel like the author laregly didnt care about interaction with the townsfolk.)
As for Erylium, I couldnt disagree with you guys more. She is intended to be tough. Up until that point in the AP, the fights arent very challenging. She is the example the AP sets for itself to show PCs that every fight will not be a cake walk, and you cant always win. Luckily, she doesnt deal out alot of damage, so most PCs ought to survive an encounter with her, even if they have to run away, or they manage to make her run away.
In all honesty, I think she is needed like she is now in the AP. Without an example to show some PCs thats its ok that every encounter doesnt end with the bad guys dead the first time around (see also: Malfeshnekor, Xanesha, and Black Magga), we would wind up with far more dead PCs.
+ 100. Erylium was designed to be a tough encounter that wouldn't kill the whole party. The lesson is "you can't kick down every door and beat every monster". She fills that role perfectly. Clever tactics are important, and she will sit still if the party leaves and has to come back. Plus, you don't have to do the catacombs before Thistletop.
Speaking of Thistletop, I discovered that a party of 3-4th level PCs in Pathfinder can do it in one shot. Thanks to infinate cantrips, channel energy, and most importantly, the ability to identify minor magic items more easily (detect magic being a cantrip), like healing potions and scrolls of spells, even wands, a party can heal up and still have offense throughout the day. Arcane bonded items help as well.
I'd say a better map of the smuggler's tunnels, and puting Malfeshnekor in a bigger room, and maps for all of the Swallowtail Festival encounter areas are needed. And of course, more foreshadowing (but the nature of different authors for each installment in all the APs make this hard to do until after the whole thing is out).
Id buy a hardback.
In general, Id like to see more of the roleplay encounters (Like "The Shopkeeper's Daughter", etc) like Burnt Offerings has alot of. It seems like as you go through the campaign, it moves more from one fight to the next, leaving any roleplaying to be done completely freeform by the GM. Not neccessarily a bad idea, but this is an AP, not a homebrew. (Example: other than finding out about 'Paradise' in Turtleback Ferry, I feel like the author laregly didnt care about interaction with the townsfolk.)
So I'm new to Pathfinder AND GM'ing. I've just started a group that meets every Tuesday and after looking around and whatnot I decided I'd start with RotRL. I'm loving the story and whatnot so far. So far though, we're working on Burnt Offerings and I feel like I was expecting MORE direction from an AP. As it is I felt overwhelmed like the book just throws all this information at me that isn't player knowledge and left me feeling like "...um.. so you're Sandpoint and some goblins attack." I felt like I'd have been better off just going totally improv since I wouldn't have to worry about referencing a short novel or maybe I am just not sure how to compartmentalize the information. I've chalked it up to my inexperience as a GM.
I'd buy a hardback though.
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+ 100. Erylium was designed to be a tough encounter that wouldn't kill the whole party. The lesson is "you can't kick down every door and beat every monster". She fills that role perfectly. Clever tactics are important, and she will sit still if the party leaves and has to come back. Plus, you don't have to do the catacombs before Thistletop.
Speaking of Thistletop, I discovered that a party of 3-4th level PCs in Pathfinder can do it in one shot. Thanks to infinate cantrips, channel energy, and most importantly, the ability to identify minor magic items more easily (detect magic being a cantrip), like healing potions and scrolls of spells, even wands, a party can heal up and still have offense throughout the day. Arcane bonded items help as well.
I'd say a better map of the smuggler's tunnels, and puting Malfeshnekor in a bigger room, and maps for all of the Swallowtail Festival encounter areas are needed. And of course, more foreshadowing (but the nature of different authors for each installment in all the APs make this hard to do until after the whole thing is out).
It isn't the difficulty. It is the monotony of fighting something with flying, fast healing, 5/dr and invisibility at 2nd level when you have really nothing to counter it. It will just keep running away and healing if played by a realistic DM.
And you shouldn't be 4th level going into Thistletop, you are going to be at best 3rd level and potentially 2nd level.
Shut the door, go back to town, get cold iron ranged weapons (after talking to the priest/sages about what you face), come back and try again. Or leave and come back in 2-3 levels with Invisibility Purge/See Invisible/Glitterdust (or just buy scrolls). Not every fight is something you can just burl over.
As to Thistletop, they should be at least 3rd level. I think it even mentions 3rd level specifically. Swallowtail Festival + Glassworks = 2nd level, additional set pieces + Catacombs of Wrath = 3rd level. Depending on how much extraneous running around/random encounters etc and party size, they could be 4th before hitting the dungeons at least. They are expected to be 4th or higher when they clear the dungeon and face Malfeshnekor.
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So I'm new to Pathfinder AND GM'ing. I've just started a group that meets every Tuesday and after looking around and whatnot I decided I'd start with RotRL. I'm loving the story and whatnot so far. So far though, we're working on Burnt Offerings and I feel like I was expecting MORE direction from an AP. As it is I felt overwhelmed like the book just throws all this information at me that isn't player knowledge and left me feeling like "...um.. so you're Sandpoint and some goblins attack." I felt like I'd have been better off just going totally improv since I wouldn't have to worry about referencing a short novel or maybe I am just not sure how to compartmentalize the information. I've chalked it up to my inexperience as a GM.I'd buy a hardback though.
I highly suggest scouring these boards. There is ALOT of stuff on here that will make your gaming experience better for RotR. Ive used a ton fo stuff that other people have made (stats, maps, handouts), as well as getting lots of ideas from how other people are running their games.
Good luck with your game.
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Shut the door, go back to town, get cold iron ranged weapons (after talking to the priest/sages about what you face), come back and try again. Or leave and come back in 2-3 levels with Invisibility Purge/See Invisible/Glitterdust (or just buy scrolls). Not every fight is something you can just burl over.
As to Thistletop, they should be at least 3rd level. I think it even mentions 3rd level specifically. Swallowtail Festival + Glassworks = 2nd level, additional set pieces + Catacombs of Wrath = 3rd level. Depending on how much extraneous running around/random encounters etc and party size, they could be 4th before hitting the dungeons at least. They are expected to be 4th or higher when they clear the dungeon and face Malfeshnekor.
1. You shouldn't need to come back in 2-3 levels to deal with something you encounter. 2-3 levels is a long, long time in game. I am not saying nerf the enemy, I am saying the encounter itself is boring, monotonous, and frustrating to the party.
2. You said they were 4th going in and completed the whole thing in one sweep. And Malfeshnekor is an optional, intentionally overpowered, encounter.
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Moving on to book two, Skinsaw Murders.
The murder mystery at the beginning is very strong, although some XP rewards would be nice.
Hambley Farm is brilliant. Would not change a thing.
Foxglove Manor haunts are great, they hit just the right note and feed into each other well.
Only complaint it about Vorel himself...not a very difficult combat. Maybe upgrading him to pathfinder rules or adding some more minions would help.
Moving to Magnimar, love the city, love the town house. In our game they managed to capture some of the Thistletop folks and brought them to Magnimar for trial, which conveniently put them in front of Ironbriar and created a really fun dynamic as they realized what was going on and had trouble with local officials, which forced them to briefly hide out in the Shadow, foreshadowing the Shadow Clock nicely.
The Sawmill is fine, I like the flavor, but it was a bit of a cakewalk for PC's of that level.
Now on the other side of the spectrum...the shadow clock starts off wonderfully. I love the golem, I love the stalkers coming at you from the stairs, and then...Xanesha the TPK machine.
After reading about what she could do, and all the stories of TPK on the boards, I kept her nest but moved her on to Turtleback Ferry to meet with her sister regarding the next part of the adventure. I might have, in hindsight, just swapped her and her sister out, since she is much less powerful.
But Xanesha is overpowered if she is left in such an ideal space for her to defend (able to buff heavily prior, flying atop a tower, facing resource weaken PCs...)
1) Malfeshnikor is specifically called out as a foe that the party can wait a few levels before facing. Your staement implies that you believe EVERY encounter should be winnable by a party, and that is clearly in conflict with the author's design goals. I can think of a couple of AP encounters off the top of my head where the authors put an NPC or monster into an encounter that the PCs should not be able to beat, for the express purpose of showing the party that they should NOT assume every fight is one they can win, and that fleeing is a viable option. You feel the encounter is boring, but a lot of lessons in school are too, but that doesn't mean that the lesson isn't worth learning.
2) I didn't say that at all. On a messageboard where my posts are plainly visible and even quotable, I don't see how you can say that. I said that I have found that a party of 3rd-4th level PCs in the Pathfinder RPG can finish Thistletop from top to bottom in one session. That's exactly what I said, and I said it because it's true, having done just that in my home campaign. Which I guess isn't technically true, because the party did not defeat Malfeshnekor until *gasp* 2 levels later, at the end of book two before leaving town for book 3.
Anecdotal evidence it may be, but what I stated is 100% acurate because it's how things ran in MY game, and I was speaking from MY experience, obviously.
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So I'm new to Pathfinder AND GM'ing. I've just started a group that meets every Tuesday and after looking around and whatnot I decided I'd start with RotRL. I'm loving the story and whatnot so far. So far though, we're working on Burnt Offerings and I feel like I was expecting MORE direction from an AP. As it is I felt overwhelmed like the book just throws all this information at me that isn't player knowledge and left me feeling like "...um.. so you're Sandpoint and some goblins attack." I felt like I'd have been better off just going totally improv since I wouldn't have to worry about referencing a short novel or maybe I am just not sure how to compartmentalize the information. I've chalked it up to my inexperience as a GM.I'd buy a hardback though.
I highly suggest scouring these boards. There is ALOT of stuff on here that will make your gaming experience better for RotR. Ive used a ton fo stuff that other people have made (stats, maps, handouts), as well as getting lots of ideas from how other people are running their games.
Good luck with your game.
Also remember that it is ok to know more than the players about what is going on, particularly at low levels. They will learn most of it at the end of the adventure from the Journal, so what unfolds along the way is going to hopefully intrigue them into research.
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1) Malfeshnikor is specifically called out as a foe that the party can wait a few levels before facing. Your staement implies that you believe EVERY encounter should be winnable by a party, and that is clearly in conflict with the author's design goals. I can think of a couple of AP encounters off the top of my head where the authors put an NPC or monster into an encounter that the PCs should not be able to beat, for the express purpose of showing the party that they should NOT assume every fight is one they can win, and that fleeing is a viable option. You feel the encounter is boring, but a lot of lessons in school are too, but that doesn't mean that the lesson isn't worth learning.2) I didn't say that at all. On a messageboard where my posts are plainly visible and even quotable, I don't see how you can say that. I said that I have found that a party of 3rd-4th level PCs in the Pathfinder RPG can finish Thistletop from top to bottom in one session. That's exactly what I said, and I said it because it's true, having done just that in my home campaign. Which I guess isn't technically true, because the party did not defeat Malfeshnekor until *gasp* 2 levels later, at the end of book two before leaving town for book 3.
Anecdotal evidence it may be, but what I stated is 100% acurate because it's how things ran in MY game, and I was speaking from MY experience, obviously.
1. And Erylium isn't specifically called out. The two examples are completely different. One is literally written as an optional quest that many parties won't even find due to the high checks needed. One is a central story point.
It isn't that the quasit is hard, it is that she is a long, monotonous, annoying fight for PCs of that level. It isn't an enjoyable encounter.
2. You level the same day in your quests? Players suddenly acquire new spells, feats, and abilities in the middle of an adventuring day?
EDIT: By the way this is your quote: "Speaking of Thistletop, I discovered that a party of 3-4th level PCs in Pathfinder can do it in one shot."
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As for Burnt Offerings: I've run it twice, and the only thing I would change is to pull in more foreshadowing around/details about Thassilon (sp?) and the Runelords.
I'm sure JJ has said that the AP (and the setting) was a work in progress, at short notice, and they originally picked a date of 10,000 years ago for the Thassilonian Empire, intending for it to be far enough back that they could deatil it later, but forgot about that when it came to placing Thassilonian ruins on every hill.
Were they to release the AP now, they'd probably relax the DCs a bit on things that would be more common knowledge.
Source (one of many) HERE
No, no one leveled the same day. I said a party of 3rd-4th level characters can do it in one day. Some were 3rd, some were 4th, perhaps? My point stands, as it was accomplished by a party of 5 PCs plus Shelelu in one go. 5 3rd level or 4 4th level + Shelelu can do it in one go.
And Erylium WAS called out as the example of a tough nut to crack that required outside the box thinking by the author, just NOT in the adventure itself. Rather on these boards. You find the fight boring and monotonous perhaps because you couldn't just beat on her until she died. Defeating her eaither requires that long slog you describe, or a minute of thought and a change in tactics. She is specifically called out as being too afraid to leave the dungeon (although the PCs don't know that) so the party can just shut the door (perhaps wedging it shut as they leave) and come back with different tactics/spells/scrolls/etc.
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No, no one leveled the same day. I said a party of 3rd-4th level characters can do it in one day. Some were 3rd, some were 4th, perhaps? My point stands, as it was accomplished by a party of 5 PCs plus Shelelu in one go. 5 3rd level or 4 4th level + Shelelu can do it in one go.
And Erylium WAS called out as the example of a tough nut to crack that required outside the box thinking by the author, just NOT in the adventure itself. Rather on these boards. You find the fight boring and monotonous perhaps because you couldn't just beat on her until she died. Defeating her eaither requires that long slog you describe, or a minute of thought and a change in tactics. She is specifically called out as being too afraid to leave the dungeon (although the PCs don't know that) so the party can just shut the door (perhaps wedging it shut as they leave) and come back with different tactics/spells/scrolls/etc.
As you said, the PC's don't know that. They know she can use that shrine to make more sinspawn, and they don't know that it is limited (They can make a perception check to see she is concerned, but that is a bit leap to know why)
So the PCs would have to lock the BBEG in a room where she clearly can summon monsters and creatures, and just leave her there for a few levels?
If you are playing with a party of 5, you shouldn't have enough XP to be able to have anyone 4th level by that point. I don't see how you could have anyone 4th level in a party of 4 either unless you are using fast progression (AP are medium)
It is designed for 4 players, and you will be third level going into Thistletop. Even with Shelelu, going from the thorns to Nualia in one run isn't realistic without a lot of DM help or PC's finding shortcuts.
They also don't know that the sinspawn are not of limited duration, just like summoned monsters. Lock her in and she summons away, then the duration expires and they are back to square one. They lock her in the room either for a few levels (remember, the book itself explicitly states that the Catacombs of Wrath don't have to follow the Glassworks immediately, going so far as to call it an "optional dungeon" IIFC), or just long enough to get scrolls/potions/cold iron weapons and reload spells and HP. Don't forget also that they should have the sheriff and other important NPCs on their side, so they not only will help and advise, but putting a couple of town watchmen down there to watch the door for them isn't unreasonable.
The check to see that she's concerned is triggered by the visible dimming of the well when she summoned a sinspawn. Seems pretty obvious that IF the PCs make that check, they know what's going on.
You assume that the PCs never get xp from random encounters, or for story awards or roleplaying. You also assume that nobody died and had to start a new PC of a lower level. You assume that there is no way to be 4th level by the time they hit Thistletop. Nevermind that all of those are false assumptions, you are STILL wrong. A party of 5 PCs + Shelelu, under the Pathfinder rules, CAN do briars to Nualia in one go. Identifying wands, potions and scrolls, plus arcane bond, channeling positive energy, unlimited cantrips all make this doable. Don't forget Mr Bash-in-the-door-and-kill-'em-all that some of the NPCs will run or surrender. Not DM help, just running it as written.
To add more unhelpful but amusing anecdotes from my game, when I ran Thistletop my group of 5 3.5 pcs fought the entire dungeon in one encounter and won. They waited until the "Mass" described in the book when all the goblins and whatnot were in one place and then ranged attacked Nualia and fled back into the jail cell area next to the cathedral and fought them as they poured in, killing pretty much everyone (though the druid bailed when at 20%hp and Nualia retreated after a beating to regroup and heal) But they effectively fought all like 26 goblins plus the dogs and the goblin rangers and bards, and the druid, and ripnugget and Nualia, and the Yeth hounds and survived (all but one anyway.) Granted only one person was concious and most people were near dead, they still did it. I think a group of Pathfinder pcs would have a much easier time. Not that it changes anything, just an FYI.
Also same group nearly died to malfeshknor and left him till like book 4, and they also got bored with Elerium and just ignored her and deactivated the runewell and left her there....
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They also don't know that the sinspawn are not of limited duration, just like summoned monsters. Lock her in and she summons away, then the duration expires and they are back to square one. They lock her in the room either for a few levels (remember, the book itself explicitly states that the Catacombs of Wrath don't have to follow the Glassworks immediately, going so far as to call it an "optional dungeon" IIFC), or just long enough to get scrolls/potions/cold iron weapons and reload spells and HP. Don't forget also that they should have the sheriff and other important NPCs on their side, so they not only will help and advise, but putting a couple of town watchmen down there to watch the door for them isn't unreasonable.
The check to see that she's concerned is triggered by the visible dimming of the well when she summoned a sinspawn. Seems pretty obvious that IF the PCs make that check, they know what's going on.
You assume that the PCs never get xp from random encounters, or for story awards or roleplaying. You also assume that nobody died and had to start a new PC of a lower level. You assume that there is no way to be 4th level by the time they hit Thistletop. Nevermind that all of those are false assumptions, you are STILL wrong. A party of 5 PCs + Shelelu, under the Pathfinder rules, CAN do briars to Nualia in one go. Identifying wands, potions and scrolls, plus arcane bond, channeling positive energy, unlimited cantrips all make this doable. Don't forget Mr Bash-in-the-door-and-kill-'em-all that some of the NPCs will run or surrender. Not DM help, just running it as written.
They have fought several not summoned sinspawn before they got to her.
I assume the lack of extra XP because I am looking at the AP as written, not as you run it.
As written you are a party of 4 3rd levels approaching thistle top. 5 if you recruited Shaleau.
And where are they going to run? It's an island with one way in and out?
By the time you get to Orik the surrender monkey you've been through the briars, through the outside goblins, and likely through the yeth hounds, all with third level players.
Any halfway intelligent party will realize she cannot flood Sandpoint with sinspawn (she would have already if she could have). The party can wedge the door shut with the old-fashioned iron spikes for long enough to resupply in town. You know, the place literally over their heads? James Jacobs has stated that this encounter runs exactly as he planned it. Sorry you don't like it and think it's boring because it's not a straight-up hackfest like 80% of the rest of the AP.
Five 3rd level PCs (because you don't give xp for random encounters or story awards, apparantly, nor do you think anyone else should either) can run though the whole thing in one go under Pathfinder rules without a DM holding their hand or handing them the xp on a silver platter. Can and did. Orik isn't the only one who surrenders (Gogmurt will, some of the goblins from other tribes, etc). You don't have to fight the yeth hounds, you don't have to fight Malfeshnekor or the shadows, nor the goblin harem, not all the goblin commandos on the top floor (the ones on the back side of the island assuming the party doesn't raise a general alarm), etc etc. The objective is Nualia (and to a lesser degree, Ripnugget), and there are plenty of ways to accomplish the objective without killing everything in sight. Sorry if you don't agree, but it can be done and has been.
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Any halfway intelligent party will realize she cannot flood Sandpoint with sinspawn (she would have already if she could have). The party can wedge the door shut with the old-fashioned iron spikes for long enough to resupply in town. You know, the place literally over their heads? James Jacobs has stated that this encounter runs exactly as he planned it. Sorry you don't like it and think it's boring because it's not a straight-up hackfest like 80% of the rest of the AP.
Five 3rd level PCs (because you don't give xp for random encounters or story awards, apparantly, nor do you think anyone else should either) can run though the whole thing in one go under Pathfinder rules without a DM holding their hand or handing them the xp on a silver platter. Can and did. Orik isn't the only one who surrenders (Gogmurt will, some of the goblins from other tribes, etc). You don't have to fight the yeth hounds, you don't have to fight Malfeshnekor or the shadows, nor the goblin harem, not all the goblin commandos on the top floor (the ones on the back side of the island assuming the party doesn't raise a general alarm), etc etc. The objective is Nualia (and to a lesser degree, Ripnugget), and there are plenty of ways to accomplish the objective without killing everything in sight. Sorry if you don't agree, but it can be done and has been.
Your tone is unhelpful and frankly rude.
I don't like it because the players felt like they were beating their heads against a wall fighting an invisible, fast healing, creature with damage reduction when WBL doesn't reach having a magic weapon level yet who plinks them over and over with a returning magic dagger.
The AP gives XP for side quests, and basically says the players should be 3rd level before thistletop.
Assuming everything goes well (they miss all side encounters) For a third level party to get through they have the following encounters.
A +1 (EL) encounter with the Druid.
A +2 (EL) encounter with the guards at the gate
A +3 (EL) Encounter in the throne room.
Each of the 3 (4 if Tsuto escaped) NPC's on the 2nd floor is 3rd level, and you are assuming that none of them were alerted to the fight above during this whole ordeal and came up to make the battle more difficult, or to prep for you coming down stairs. The Yeth Hounds in the chapel are +2 (EL 5)
Then of course, the final battle with Nualia is minimun +3 El (EL 6) assuming the NPCs didn't retreat down to her and make that fight even more interesting.
And again, that is assuming you missed the goblin refugees, the goblin dogs, the random goblins, the tentamort, got past both traps without falling to the bunyip or being slashed...
You keep saying hack fest over and over as if that is what anyone is asking for. Here are the "complaints" toward what we all agree is a great AP.
1. Erylium is a monotonous encounter since the PCs can't hurt her, she can't really hurt them, and she can fly and become invisible and fast heal at will.
2. Thistletop is a two day encounter without any clear break point to take the 2nd day.
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A) You are both being rude, so calling TwoWolves out on it just makes you look worse, ciretose.
B) Just FYI, the APs Paizo did under 3.5 rules are on Fast Prgression, not medium, so RotR is on fast.
C) My group took two days to do Thistletop only because right after defeating Nualia, they headed to Malfeshnekor (party of 6, btw. All level 3. Most encounters made more difficult appropriately). Other than that, I could see it being done in one day, but only if you play it correctly.
D) I cant help but think that any group that finds Erylium THAT hard to deal with isnt playing the game very strategically. Reach weapons, CMD checks, research based on info in Tsuto's journal and then buying something with cold iron, a PALADIN USING SMITE, etc are all easy answers. Also, her dagger does like 1-2 damage per round.
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A) You are both being rude, so calling TwoWolves out on it just makes you look worse, ciretose.
B) Just FYI, the APs Paizo did under 3.5 rules are on Fast Prgression, not medium, so RotR is on fast.
C) My group took two days to do Thistletop only because right after defeating Nualia, they headed to Malfeshnekor (party of 6, btw. All level 3. Most encounters made more difficult appropriately). Other than that, I could see it being done in one day, but only if you play it correctly.
D) I cant help but think that any group that finds Erylium THAT hard to deal with isnt playing the game very strategically. Reach weapons, CMD checks, research based on info in Tsuto's journal and then buying something with cold iron, a PALADIN USING SMITE, etc are all easy answers. Also, her dagger does like 1-2 damage per round.
A) This is a dicussion of what needs to be improved. If you don't want to dicuss things that need to be improved or you want to insult people by claiming they must me "hack and slash" then go create another thread.
B) Citation?
C) What level was your group, how many of you were there, and what encounters did your group go through.
D) A 2nd level paladin using smite evil would do well in this encounter, just as a Druid would do well in the thorns with Gogmort.
Now every other class...
You are 2nd level. Your BAB is +2 at best. Even with an 18 Dex you are only hitting on a 16 or higher, if she is visible, and she isn't going to put herself in melee when she has the throwing dagger.
Her AC is 22 and she has 30 hit points, even if you buy cold iron weapons when your WBL is 1000 and hope she doesn't cast shatter on them.
She will turn invisible and heal if she gets below 10 hit points, then come back and attack again.
Even a paladin with smite has to hit her, and she has a 22 AC and is flying and can turn invisible at will.
It is generally a long and monotonous combat. Take away either the invisibility, flying, fast healing or DR and it is a reasonable combat. Having all four makes it drag on forever unless DM fiat comes into play.
I didn't turn "rude" until someone in this thread essentially called me a liar for saying that a party of 3-4th level PCs can take Thistletop in one day, under the Pathfinder rules, without "DM fiat" or "a lot of DM help. Under 3.5, yes, it takes multiple forays. Under Pathfinder, it does not, and I gave my reasons why. WBL, standard 4 man party, medium vs fast progression, blah blah blah. That's all beside the point. When using THIS adventure that was written for 3.5 D&D under the new rules, the power-swing for low levels makes it possible.
The author of the freakin' adventure stated in these very messageboards why Erylium is the kind of opponent that she is, and gave suggestions on how clever parties can deal with her. The author had a very specific kind of encounter in mind, to teach new players a lesson. The encounter works exactly as it was intended. Because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be changed. Saying that cold iron weapons are out of reach or are unreasonable ("hope she doesn't cast shatter") is ludicrous. Cold Iron arrows are dirt cheap. A scroll of glitterdust is too. A freakin NET is also affordable. Because it's hard to stand there and beat her with a stick does NOT mean it's a bad encounter. Erylium has almost NO offense, and as written will not leave the dungeon. The party has plenty of chances to leave and come back when they are better prepared to fight her, no matter if that is in one day or one year. That entire freakin' part of the module is specifically mentioned as NOT having to be done in any specific order, so claiming it's too hard for 2nd level PCs is false. It ws designed for 2nd level guys, sure, and can be cleared by a party of 2nd level characters (more easily under Pathfinder than under 3.5), but it's entirely possible the party won't get to it until AFTER Thistletop. Admittedly, this isn't likely nor ideal, but as written, specifically mentioned to be a viable alternative.
A Paladin using smite and a druid with woodland stride do make those encounters easier. So does a ranger with a goblin favored enemy, or a power attacking barbarian, or an archer, or a wizard with an arcane bonded item, or, well, any reasonably built, well rounded party using the Pathfinder rules.
I claimed ciretose believed in a "hack'n'slash" gaming mentality because that's how he's been posting. That any fight that requires out of the box thinking has to be changed, and that every foe in every room must be killed in order to clear/win a dungeon. Now he's not satisfied with how another poster claims his group handled it, so he wants specifics on what encounters THEY had as well, and is demanding citations! Really? Re-read the adventure yourself, and you can search Mr Jacob's posts yourself to see that godsDMit is right about 3.5 APs using fast advancement under PFRPG. Or just admit that the adventure is not a computer program, and when the dice hit the table, the train comes off the rails and anything can and often does happen.
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Admittedly, this isn't likely nor ideal, but as written, specifically mentioned to be a viable alternative.
The entire point of this thread is to look at what is less than ideal in the book, for possible revision.
That is the point of the thread.
This is a thread to look at what I described as a "masterpiece" and see if there are any ways to tighten it up on revision for a pathfinder update.
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Moving on to book 3 (no comment on Book 2?...)
First off, the hook (no pun intended) could be stronger. I'm not a big fan of "sent by the king" stuff. You could just have Shaleau track you down to go check on her stepfather (assuming she is alive). But this is a minor quibble.
Put me in the "Love the Grauls" camp. I love everything about that whole encounter.
Double that on the Rannick Raid. I love the strategy available, and the multiple options, traitor in your midst, not to mention acquiring a fort. These two set pieces were top highlights of the whole AP for me and my players, and made me wish I was able to play it myself. Wouldn't change a thing.
The flood with the the Black Magga was a fun set piece, and I liked the flavor of the Dam, but I felt like it came at an awkward time in the AP, as there were still other things to follow up on with the Giants making weapons in the mountains when all of a sudden you have to deal with the flood.
The adventure in the fens was fine, but didn't fit with the rest of the AP. I like it fine, I just wish these two parts were better integrated into the primary plot, as both feel like optional side quests. And I feel like they could be better intergrated...so maybe that is something to work on.
The final attack on the Giant/Ogre fortress was great, but it felt like something that should have come sooner after Rannick. Maybe something could be done so that you don't know as early that is the end game, because as it is now, by the time you are don't with Fort Rannick, players want to move on the headquarters and there isn't really any reason for them not to, therefore bypassing the two side quests.
All and all, a very good book in the AP.
Thoughts?
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B) Just FYI, the APs Paizo did under 3.5 rules are on Fast Prgression, not medium, so RotR is on fast.
C) My group took two days to do Thistletop only because right after defeating Nualia, they headed to Malfeshnekor (party of 6, btw. All level 3. Most encounters made more difficult appropriately). Other than that, I could see it being done in one day, but only if you play it correctly.B) Citation?
C) What level was your group, how many of you were there, and what encounters did your group go through.
B) I dunno. if you search the forums for 'what progression are the APs on, youll get an answer. Ive seen several posts by board members, and at least one, I think by James Jacobs, who says the 3.5 APs are fast progression (since they didnt have their own pregression when it came out, they had to use the 3.5 one), and the PF APs are on medium.
C) When they ran away, after fighting Malfeshnekor, they hadnt encountered Lyrie (who heard them coming and ran for the bottom floor), hadnt fought the shadows (but those arent neccessarily before Mal), or the goblins outside the doors of Thistletop by the bridge, cause I forgot they were there. Also, they didnt fight the shark/seal thing.
As I said in the initial post, I had 6 PCs, all level 3, and I increased the amounts of bad guys appropriately to keep the exp on track. When they encountered the rest of those, the shadows were the only one that gave them even moderate trouble.
Also, they fled back to Sandpoint not in a 'we are all near 0 and we cant go on', but because they didnt know at the time that Mal couldnt chase them.
The fight with him consisted of about 2 rounds of them trying to hit them, Mal convincing one of them to 'stay for dinner' with whatever spell he had, and then 2 rounds of them trying to get their last friend out of the room and closing the doors before he 'came out after them'.
If they hadnt fought him, I think they would have finished up the whole thing in one go.
Anyway, Book 2:
I like the set up for the lumbermill and the murder mystery, but I really feel the book gives it away too early. The clues just seem too easy of a pattern to figure out.
Anyway, I loved the mansion (woulda loved it more if I didnt have a paladin), though I dont think ALL of the haunts should be fear-based effects(like the Manticore).
Not a big fan of the revenant in the attic, but that was probably cause my paladin didnt know whether he should smite it or try to help, since she was crying, and everyone just stood in the damn doorway for 3 rounds before even approaching her.
The townhouse was fantastic (especially since one of my players used the Hat of Disguise to walk in looking like Aldern Foxglove. That was priceless.).
The sawmill was great, as was the clocktower.
Book 3: (We are still playing this one)
As I said in my first post in this thread, the lack of interaction with more than just a single 'random townfolk x' in Turtleback Ferry makes it feel to me like the author wasnt intereted in the PCs talking to them or spending time in the town. I think it needs more roleplay scenarios listed.
Graul farmstead is fantastic.
Timeline needs some re-working, I think, as most people, including me, seem to wonder how the PCs are supposed to get from Rannick back to the town to save the town when the flood is coming.
Thats all I got for now.
The first encounter is as close to perfect as you can get. Great hook to bring players in, just the right level of tension, and even some foreshadowing. Great stuff.
This is actually the first part I intend to modify when I run the AP. As written, I find the goblin raid to be too abstract for my tastes. I am likely in the minority here, but I love having my NPCs take part in the action--with the PCs as the primary heroes in the spotlight of course. So to bring some more NPC action into the early part of the AP, I am boosting the goblin raid to more epic proportions, and arranging it so it actually does a decent job of distracting the townsfolk from Tsuto's activities in the boneyard.
My changes will be as follows:
- The townsfolk are in the midst of the consecration ceremony itself when a scream sounds from down Junker's Way. This is quickly joined by more screams from other parts of town. The PCs will be positioned at the back of the crowd and racing down Junker's Way will find Jesk Berinni--armed with a purloined militiaman's spear--attempting to fight off two Seventooth goblins who along with a bunch of their comrades, were in the midst of trying to force Lanalee Magravi and Bilivar Wheen's remaining daughter to walk off the side of Junker's Edge. Jesk (who I have restatted to a court bard--he has the Pass for Human feat but was eventually run out of Magnimar when his disguise slipped) is badly injured but has used fascinate to knock five goblins out of action. What the PCs don't know (but will likely find out) is that Jesk is pining for Lanalee. Vorah Wheen will also have something to say in the following days about the fact that another of her children has just had her life threatened.
- Once that is dealt with, the PCs will hear the sounds of goblins singing down on the beach. I have moved the bonfires down to the beach where the PCs will encounter a group of Licktoad goblins setting off a few fireworks (foreshadowing We Be Goblins, which I intend to run between RotRL and Jade Regent). A single watchman is sneaking his way up the beach towards the goblins but is spotted and the PCs have to work out how they can get down the cliff to the beach and save the watchman from the goblins.
- After that, one of the paladins (either Gaven or Jasper) will show up to use lay on hands to heal the party--and then they'll hear a commotion up the hill outside the general store. Ven Vinder (who I have restatted as a former militiaman) will be defending his shop and his family from a bunch of Mosswood goblins. The PCs will need to wade in to help.
- Finally, the Rusty Dragon will be under attack. The PCs will find Ameiko and Daviren Hosk back-to-back and about to be overwhelmed--both of them also trying to protect Aldern Foxglove. Daviren in particular will find needing to be rescued by the PCs rather galling, which will set up what I hope will be an ongoing unpleasant rivalry between him and the PCs. I have vague plans of having him get his old adventuring group back together (or even forming a new group with some less than pleasant individuals) and becoming a real rival group for the PC party.
So the theory is that the PCs will meet a bunch of NPCs as they fight their way around Sandpoint (plus I intend to throw in the occasional comment for colour to show what some of the other NPCs are up to--e.g. Madame Mvashti--rebuilt as an Oracle/Witch/Mystic Theurge and hence Level 9) dispatching any goblin that comes near her), and will come to be seen as real heroes of Sandpoint. They will also, crucially, be kept away from the boneyard.
That's as far as I've got in my adaptation of the actual encounters so far, so I may change more things--but while I identify with and can understand the assertion that the opening is 'perfect', my favourite part of the AP is that I can read about the NPCs that are involved in it and extrapolate from those short descriptions several plot threads that I know my players are going to love chasing down. I am hoping that by making the initial goblin raid more large-scale, I will solidify the threat to Sandpoint, and provide a taste of what awaits in Fortress of the Stone Giants when the PCs will need to fight off a giant raiding party instead.
I apologize for the tone of my posts previously. In the spirit of moving the thread back on track, here's my thoughts on book 2 and 3.
Book 2:
I agree that as written, The Big X is a big TPK, unless the party does their homework and thinks outside the box and is ready to drop some coin on potions and scrolls. Unless the DM is ready to pick up the pieces after a party wipe, then she should either be toned down or swapped for Lucretia. Otherwise, I think book 2 is fine. With one notable exception: by-the-book ghasts are weaker than 3.5 ghasts. The advanced template doesn't make ghasts as tough as they were in 3.5, so you probably have to advance them a HD or two to keep the same threat level.
I also suggest more Ironbriar foreshadowing. Having one of the city's 13 Justices be the leader of a murderous cult is only shocking if the party knew that in the first place. I ran a trial for all those captured in book 1 (Tsuto, Orik, Lyrie and Ripnugget) and had Ironbriar preside, all before book 2 started. I also did what others have suggested and made Ironbriar the real father of Tsuto. When Tsuto was sentenced to life in jail, some other schmuck was actually thrown in the Hells and Tsuto was indoctrinated into daddy's cult.
Book 3: I agree that the stated link from book 2 is awful. The timing is suspect (by the time word of the fort's silence hits Magnimar, it'd be months before a party could get there, way longer than the book implies). I did what others here suggested and included a letter from Lucretia to Xaneshia mentioning the greed of the frontiersmen and that the gambling barge idea is working swimmingly. It's old and contrite, but it works, and the party was ready to head inland almost immediately.
I'm also not wild about the detour into the swamps. It seems completely out of place. It should either be fleshed out or dropped. It does do a nice job of foreshadowing the fate of the former Commander (who also needs a boost, say making him an 8th level dread wight ranger), but the hook and the backstory are just too esoteric.
Speaking of Lamatar's fate, now that the APG has been out a while, his tormentors could be given some levels in the witch class. That might be interesting. There might also need to be a better hook to get the party back to Sandpoint to start book 4 as well.
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I think that ciretose makes some good points with regard to Erylium and Thistletop. These were both things that were awkward in my group.
With regard to Erylium, she is definitely not impossible to beat. It will take some clever tactics (I've run this twice, and both times my parties have ended up grappling her and drowning her in the pool). But I think that ciretose does have a good point, in that the encounter will be extremely frustrating for many players. Some changes to the encounter would make it more fun to play, even if it is still challenging. Particularly, the combination of Invisibility and Fast Healing make it feel to the players like an impossible drag -- my group ended up being very tired of it by the time the encounter was over.
Thistletop does seem a bit long to handle in one adventuring day. My group ended up doing the thistle patch and the fort on top, then camping for the night and doing both dungeon levels the next day, which worked pretty well. But I agree that many parties would want to start on the first dungeon level the first day, and once that is begun, there is not a good stopping place until they finish the whole thing.
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Weighing in on book 2, I loved it. Ive had the good fortune to be on both sides of the screen for it. The first time through as a PC, we had a light party of three (a rogue assassin, a ranged ranger, and a sorcerer). Very few mods were made to the entirety of the adventure. Went smoothly. We had no problems through the entirety of foxglove manor (pcs avoided the revanent), the sawmill (silence and darkness, followed by sneak attacks on nearly everyone), but the old tower was amazing. the whole set up had a good feel and the pacing was appropriate. The Golem gave some problems, but was handled in the end. Big X went down fairly easy for us as players. When I flipped to the other side of the screen with another group she decimated the party, throwing the fighter off the tower was just one of the highlights to that fight... The ultimate difference was how well they worked together and research.
For making it better, definitely a bit more on Ironbriar before the PC's head to the sawmill. Something akin to TwoWolves post above would be a nice addition to the adventure. The clues were rather straighforward. Both Aldern and Ironbriar weren't exactly tough, which I would also fix. Maybe a template or a couple more levels. Beyond that I thought everything else was balanced, including Big X. She definitely came across as reinforcement of the Erylium lesson, but with TPK potential. Most of these changes are fairly simple though.
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Forgot about class conversions:
Erylium ought to become some class that Pathfinder actually has. I went with Summoner, with her Eidolon looking strangely like her old master (not that the players have discovered this yet). others have converted her toa Witch, which I think is good too.
Tsuto- Ninja
Lyrie needs a focus. Evocation with a good assortment of divination spells too?
Orik- Shielded Fighter
Ripnugget- Cavalier
Nualia- Antipaladin
Book2
Ironbriar- Inquisitor of Nethys. I had him TWF with war razors. One magical, one mwk.
Book3
Barl Breakbones- Oracle of Bones (has the same general feel as a necromancer, but gives some more variety, so every caster isnt a wizard).
Ogre barbarian who is destroying the dam: Changing to an alchemist.
Forgot about class conversions:
Erylium ought to become some class that Pathfinder actually has. I went with Summoner, with her Eidolon looking strangely like her old master (not that the players have discovered this yet). others have converted her toa Witch, which I think is good too.
Tsuto- Ninja
Lyrie needs a focus. Evocation with a good assortment of divination spells too?
Orik- Shielded Fighter
Ripnugget- Cavalier
Nualia- Antipaladin
Book2
Ironbriar- Inquisitor of Nethys. I had him TWF with war razors. One magical, one mwk.Book3
Barl Breakbones- Oracle of Bones (has the same general feel as a necromancer, but gives some more variety, so every caster isnt a wizard).Ogre barbarian who is destroying the dam: Changing to an alchemist.
Almost exactly what I've done in my conversion, but Erylium became a witch and Tsuto became a Zen Archer.
Witch or not, I too am tired of thaumaturges when I don't own the Book of Fiends and there's no Pathfinder RPG equivalent available. (Personally, I'd make her an oracle - of nature, maybe - because a familiar with a familiar just seems weird to me.)
I found the familiar with a familiar to be kind of dumb myself. I went with straight cleric for Erylium. My party didn't lay a scratch on her and just ran away and barricaded the place up. They are preety noob and no one thought to grapple her, but live and learn is the way I am running it. Since she is an agoraphobe, I'm going to let her sit in the catacombs seething. If the party decides to go back, I may give her some friends like a yeth hound or something, depending on the level and overall feeling of the time (if they get all beat up beforehand I'll leave her alone)
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(Personally, I'd make her an oracle - of nature, maybe)
And because once I get an idea in my head I can't get it out until I do something with it...
Erylium
Female quasit oracle of nature (seer) 3
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 20, touch 18, flat-footed 16
(deflection +2, Dex +4, natural +2, size +2)
hp 38 (3d10+3 plus 3d8+6); fast healing 2
Fort +3 (+7 vs disease), Ref +8, Will +7
DR 5/cold iron or good; Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft., fly 50 ft.
Melee 2 claws +11 (1d3-2, 20/x2, plus poison) and bite +11 (1d4-2, 20/x2) or
+1 returning dagger +12 (1d2-1, 19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 returning dagger +12 (1d2-1, 19-20/x2)
Space 2 1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks gift of prophecy (augury), natural divination 1/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th):
At will – detect good, detect magic, invisibility (self only)
1/day – cause fear (30 ft radius, DC 14)
1/week – commune (six questions)
Spells Known (CL 3rd, touch +9, ranged touch +9, concentration +6):
1st (6/day) – bane (DC 14), charm animal, cure light wounds, inflict light wounds (DC 14), shield of faith, summon monster I
0 – bleed (DC 13), guidance, mending, read magic, resistance
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TACTICS
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Before Combat Erylium uses her natural divination ability every morning to grant herself a +4 competence bonus on a single initiative check that day (included in the statistics above). She casts shield of faith and turns herself invisible as soon as she hears enemies approaching.
During Combat Although tough to hit and capable of healing wounds quickly, Erylium is something of a coward in a fight. She uses flight to maintain ranged superiority over foes, preferring to use summoned monsters (typically fiendish dire rats or fiendish vipers) to do her fighting for her. If she runs out of spells, she switches to her +1 returning dagger, or her claws and bite if forced into melee.
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STATISTICS
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Str 6, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +5; CMB +1; CMD 17
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration), Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +5, Fly +22, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +7, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +18; -4 penalty to all Charisma-based skill checks except Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Common, Thassilonian; telepathy (touch)
SQ change shape (bat, toad; polymorph), oracle’s curse (wasting)
Gear +1 returning dagger, miniature tiara worth 50 gp, miniature black silk gown worth 25 gp, obsidian holy symbol of Lamashtu worth 10 gp
One thing I do think needs to change for the entire AP is the treasure issue. By that, I specifically mean the magic items that are unusable (and should be unsellable) due to size. From a tiny +1 returning dagger to piles and piles of large sized weapons and armor, there is a LOT of treasure like this. Plus, the market for items in Magnimar changed with the conversion from 3.5 to PFRPG. IIRC, you can no longer just "shop out of the rulebook" in Magnimar due to changes in how magic item availability works.
There needs to either be a note in the player's guide to the AP that item creation feats are pretty necessary at mid to high level, or there needs to be a feat or ability to "drain" magic from one item and reuse it in crafting new items, or some note about item availability in the long run.
One thing I do think needs to change for the entire AP is the treasure issue. By that, I specifically mean the magic items that are unusable (and should be unsellable) due to size. From a tiny +1 returning dagger to piles and piles of large sized weapons and armor, there is a LOT of treasure like this. Plus, the market for items in Magnimar changed with the conversion from 3.5 to PFRPG. IIRC, you can no longer just "shop out of the rulebook" in Magnimar due to changes in how magic item availability works.
There needs to either be a note in the player's guide to the AP that item creation feats are pretty necessary at mid to high level, or there needs to be a feat or ability to "drain" magic from one item and reuse it in crafting new items, or some note about item availability in the long run.
In our group we added took some crafting feats and added a "disenchant" function to any caster that took a crafting feat. Though it's a homerule, it was way easier than trying to figure out where we were going to sell Ogre Hooks and Dogslicers and other various evil/large/small items. Disenchanting couldn't be done in dungeons, but when it was done it gave "magical residue" equal to sell price of the item. That "residue" could then be used as the "always mysterious and never quite specified" gp cost in components to craft magic items.
As written, we also found that the AP either gave fairly unlimited time for crafting between chapters (which led to overwealthed characters) or almost no time at all (which led to a lack of needed gear and upgrades, as well as complaining about wasted feats). It'd be nice to get some fairly specified times in between certain parts of the AP. Hopefully these moments of peace would be long enough to make crafting very useful without making it overpowered. I know a DM can always make that call, but we found that it altered the storyline of the AP. Also, when you rotate DM (as I feel a lot of people probably do with APs) it's hard to make consistent rulings, especially limiting ones, without someone becoming "the evil DM."
In our group we added took some crafting feats and added a "disenchant" function to any caster that took a crafting feat. Though it's a homerule, it was way easier than trying to figure out where we were going to sell Ogre Hooks and Dogslicers and other various evil/large/small items. Disenchanting couldn't be done in dungeons, but when it was done it gave "magical residue" equal to sell price of the item. That "residue" could then be used as the "always mysterious and never quite specified" gp cost in components to craft magic items.
This is exactly what I'm doing in our campaign right now. I call the "magical residue" ethillion or whatever it's called in book 5. So that encounter just becomes a big pool of free gp for enchanting purposes. The other thing I added was a bounty on goblin/ogre/giant weapons and armor and any "evil" items sponsored by both Magnimar's Lord Mayor and the Windsong Abbey, to provide an outlet to sell unusable/evil items for gp value without worry about good PCs dumping items on the open market only usable by evil folks. Sort of like a gun buyback program, fantasy-style!
Specifically evil items are bought up by good churches in our campaign, too....then scheduled for destruction...though most items just get disenchanted. Non-magical, but still evil/creepy, items like the torture and anatomy books and such get sold off to a contact in Magnimar made by my character (we all take turns DMing). One of the other characters in the group wants to root out and end Chelish slavery and such in Varisia, and the contact that my character has made can get them information on this, but in order to go undercover my character poses as a pretty unsavory sort, using the unsavory items he finds to help establish his cover identity and gain the evil Chelish merchant's trust.
It's better than just having all these weird items and books sitting around in the cellar of Fort Rannick!
We have an undercover Pathfinder Society member in our game, so what oddball stuff doesn't go to the bounties gets bought and put on display at the Magnimar chapterhouse.