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I for one love Ninjas, and Gunslingers and Samurai but when it comes to my fantasy games I absolutely hate the idea. I don't want to see hordes of Gnome Ninjas running around or Elf Gunslingers, it just seems wrong to me. I don't care if Paizo makes the books with that junk in them, I have just made it clear to players in my games that the Asian themed stuff will not be allowed in my games unless we are doing a Asian themed game(which I doubt I would ever run.). Same with the Gunslingers and anything else I do not like.
Actually I'm looking at what I wrote and I'm seeing:
"I'd really have to to be some sort of real DBag to think like that"
I'd = referring to myself. So I'm not really calling anyone else a DBag here.
But that aside you do make a good point that I overlooked about this stuff being added into the AP's. Personally that's still not an issue for me, but I could see how that could be an issue for someone else.
Thank you. That's really all I was asking.
As for the rest, sorry I put words in your mouth.
Just so people know where the genesis of this post came from:
Reading the discussion of some of the aforementioned content and more importantly the thread about High Level content, there seems to be some real hate bombing going on. So much so that the High Level content thread got locked.
Bugley, you said your cancelling you AP subscription due how much you dislike the Asian dominant themes in Jade Regent, correct?? Do you plan on trying to convince others to do the same?? will you rant and rave on these boards in an attempt, however feeble and unlikely to succeed, to get Paizo to not make APs any more??
Because there seems to be some out there who do just that, so against they are of stuff they don't like.
My saying "try and stop Paizo" wasn't anything more than my saying that I will not go on some internet crusade, trying to show the powers that be and all of the customers that something I don't like is horribly wrong and should never see the light of day.
BTW
THANK YOU ALL FOR KEEPING THIS A MOSTLY CIVIL DISCUSSION.
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Because the despair of others sustains me.
I hope you don't think of me that way. I just like to argue.
Because there seems to be some out there who do just that, so against they are of stuff they don't like.
Even if you did, and honestly, I didn't really feel you did, though to be fair, i skipped a LOT of that thread, you were at least civil and respectful.
Until organized play rules start leaking into the Adventure Path and other products, your analogy is flawed.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to can my AP sub after next month. Why? I have zero interest in samurai or ninja stat blocks, because I have zero interest in Ultimate Combat. The story of Jade Regent could have been told using fighters and rogues, and remained accessible to everyone, but that isn't how it panned out. Yet everyone expressing displeasure that the AP is no longer meeting his or her needs is a DBag? Sorry, I just don't see it. Likewise, lamenting the apparent demise of content for "core-only" GMs doesn't make one selfish. In fact, I think this conversation would be a lot more productive if we refrained from calling one another names.
Or we could just bundle up a few more "Ur funz r bad" straw men. :)
Just a question...why not just restat them as fighters and rogues? You could probably keep the stats, HPs and saves(heck probably 80% to 90% of the stat block) the same and just give them rogue and fighter stuff. I mean I think it might take a extra what 1/2 hour of prep time(though I would say you could probably do the low level stuff on the fly). And if you are such a big fan of the APs...is that not worth it?
The part of the arguement of the changes to the AP is that it makes it harded on core only GMs...is it is rather simple to change most of the time I don't get the anger about it. If people spent the time they do on the internet complaining about this stuff and just adjusting it....they could probably still get online to complain about it...their post count would just drop. I thought the stregnth of keeping things core only was to be able to do this kinda of stuff on the fly.
I think people are opposed to X, Y and Z because X, Y and Z lead to people having badwrongfun.
Badwrongfun is a serious thing. What it means is that other people don't actually enjoy the same things you do. This needs to be discouraged merely on principle, because even if you'd never be in contact with the people doing the badwrongfun at all or ever, that's still some people having it, and that just won't do.
On a more serious note, it could be moved that including, say, psionics, in Pathfinder would make Pathfinder more diverse and different, thereby reducing the stuff you like. However, given the massive amount of different RPGs out there, can't we all agree that the RPG industry is full of games doing much the same thing already? Do we need another basic fantasy RPG without many distinguishing marks? When you jump on the Paizo bandwagon, you also make a decision to TRUST the people making the game to make good things for it, and make the game itself better and stronger. Whether that gives you Gunslingers, psionics or candy-coloured little horses. For myself, I have very little interest in a lot that they make, but I believe their vision of the game is strong and relevant enough to keep me hooked. For every "Fairy Orc tribes of Golarion", there is sure to be one or more awesome products that I REALLY want. And hey, if I take a look at the Fairy Orc tribes, I might enjoy it too.
Give them the feedback they want and ask for, but realize that there is a line past which the "badwrongfun" argument no longer holds.
EDIT: Changed some for clarity, what I wrote didn't come out right the first time.
I think people are opposed to X, Y and Z because X, Y and Z lead to people having badwrongfun.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but a good part of this thread has consisted of attempts to explain why this isn't the case.
*Sigh*
Just a question...why not just restat them as fighters and rogues?
Because a good part of the APs value (to me) is that I don't need to build stat blocks. Loss of that utility changes the value proposition (to me) sufficiently to tip the balance.
I get that some people feel differently...what I don't get is why many of those same people can't seem to understand why I feel as I do, or why they continue to posit that I and others like me are selfish curmudgeons out to spoil everyone else's fun.
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I dispise it, i dont think it shouldn't exist. I dont pop up on pfs boards and say i dont want this to exist because I dont like it, stop making it and focus on things I want.And yet, even if you did, it would not matter one bit, because you (or I, or anyone) don't have the power to stop something from existing when making a post on an internet messageboard.
Those people who think people do, and/or want to stop them from saying it (for whatever reason), are nothing more than scary delusional. They are, what we call in the business, "crazy".
There are many instances in which no, it doesn't matter. But here's what I see all the time:
Thread Title: Why I love Pathfinder
Poster: PATHFINDER SUCKS, HERE'S TEN REASONS WHY!
Thread Title: Help me build a ninja/gunslinger/paladin
Poster: why aren't you playing a rogue/ranger/cleric instead? That other class sucks. Don't buy Ultimate Combat, it sucks.
There's a difference between having personal preferences, posting those preferences in the appropriate place, and attempting to derail a thread with trolling hatey troll opinions.
EDIT: I removed the word "your" from the previous sentence. I realized it might imply that I was calling you a troll. That is certainly not the case. I have found this thread to be a civil discussion and would like to see it continue that way.
There's a reason why I love these messageboards, but generally don't read a thread past twenty posts or so, because it eventually devolves into two posters threadjacking with a "like vs. hate" debate.
If people want to debate Hero Points/Gunslingers/4e/baseball/pie and why it sucks and they don't want it produced any more, that's fine. But keep it to a thread dedicated to that kind of conversation and understand that it doesn't have to invade every thread on the boards.
Just a question...why not just restat them as fighters and rogues?Because a good part of the APs value (to me) is that I don't need to build stat blocks. Loss of that utility changes the value proposition (to me) sufficiently to tip the balance.
I get that some people feel differently...what I don't get is why many of those same people can't seem to understand why I feel as I do, or why they continue to posit that I and others like me are selfish curmudgeons out to spoil everyone else's fun.
You didn't answer my question. Until you do, I can't respond to your post.
Have you called anybody a "Sad, pathetic, basement-dwelling loser, with psychological problems" because that person likes something you hate/despise?? If you have, you sir are what I am talking about.
HOWEVER, if you have not said or done such things, then you have nothing to worry about. At least as far as I'm concerned.
But keep it to a thread dedicated to that kind of conversation and understand that it doesn't have to invade every thread on the boards.
Oh, sure, but that's something quite different from the the OP posted, and what I was responding to.
"Don't derail threads" is certainly a laudable goal.
AMIB covered most of it. There's also the concern of what I've previously referred to as "book overload." Toting more than a few such substantially-sized rulebooks around can get awkward.
Additionally, I've discovered that a certain percentage of people have...shall we say, particular ideas about what a setting can contain and still be classified as "fantasy." While I don't really want to go into detail, suffice to say that I've met people who wouldn't call Talislanta a fantasy setting and would argue that AP #14 disqualified Golarion as one.
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Why?? Maybe it's because I am so open-minded in my real life that if my D&D/PF game has something I don't really care for in it, I'll just ignore it or suck it up and deal.
Because some people believe that the things they do not like are objectively bad ideas, and when someone else says they like those things, that person is essentially saying that the other person's opinion is wrong.
I don't really like the Gunslinger, nor do I really like the Lovecraftian elements in Golarion, or least how much there are. And yet, I will not try to stop Paizo from creating or supporting works that contain them. I will be buying Ultimate Combat, even though it contains a class I don't really care for.
I seriously do not understand how people can say they don't like the Lovecraftian elements in Golarion. That does not compute. Does not compute. Does not compute. ::head explodes::
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Never read Lovecraft. Never really had the interest.
Honestly, his writing isn't all that great. It's really florid, the characters are underdeveloped, and he makes a lot of awkward stylistic choices that can understandably turn people off. As a writer, he's really only passable.
But his ideas? Absolutely ****ing brilliant. No horror writer since has so perfectly managed to congeal the fears and anxieties of the modern era into concrete ideas. The terror of a nihilistic universe revealed by science, the horror people felt going into the modern era recognizing that the great watchmaker in the sky might very well be a blind idiot god with no concern for his creation, the fear of cultural degeneration and collapse by the ever invasive others, he managed to give names and identity to these dreads in a way that ensures he will go down in history as the true father of Horror.
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But his ideas? Absolutely ****ing brilliant. No horror writer since has so perfectly managed to congeal the fears and anxieties of the modern era into concrete ideas. The terror of a nihilistic universe revealed by science, the horror people felt going into the modern era recognizing that the great watchmaker in the sky might very well be a blind idiot god with no concern for his creation, the fear of cultural degeneration and collapse by the ever invasive others, he managed to give names and identity to these dreads in a way that ensures he will go down in history as the true father of Horror.
Pretty much agree with all of the above. Plus he allowed other writers to use his Mythos in their stories. Which is why you have so manty stories from other authors set in that universe.