If players work at making a few options better instead of gaining a ton of options that may help.
I agree. At level 15 the players are probably going to feel like Gods, by level 20 they will surely be like Gods.How so ?
Pathfinder scales up much quicker than AD&D 1e so all of my players at 3rd level already feel like total badasses. I image at 15th level they will be ridiculous....thus my analogy.
So you imagine. How nice.
Another example of a serious problem creeping in to these forums. I hope Paizo eventually gets stricter on this type of sarcastic garbage. Does nothing to further the discussion, only helps to alienate people from the forums and thus Paizo products by extension.
No you can't. Create Food and Water traps are available at level 5. You can't use the D&D rules to replicate movies and novels, at any level. Nor any real world period and place (the attempts to do so in Golarion are awful, though that's mostly unrelated to the rules). Even novels set in D&D settings are largely incompatible with the rules.
Or at least, you can't as long as you base your world on the rules, and if you think that a world like that is insane. But you can staple the rules on incompatible settings, and you can easily avoid making a mockery of your own game. If you want to.
Create water isn't nearly as bad as you'd think. I did a short stint in Africa with the peace corps. I found one of the pumps stated gallons per minute in the manual and the amount of water that a 1st level cleric spamming Create water could crank out. Even the village pumps put out put 1st level casters working round the clock to shame. You can indeed have spammable create water and deserts in your campaign.
What would change is the decline of oasis's being QUITE as necessary to desert travel, but if you want to set up a town you're either going to need a well/watering hole. You probably also don't want to risk an entire caravan going belly up if one person gets an arrow to the head or falls off a camel and breaks his neck.
Create food would help, but its a 3rd level Spell. Given the low % of a population that ever make it to be 5th level casters, they can't provide food for everyone. They might help make it through some tough times, but they're not going to replace the farmers.
Pathfinder scales up much quicker than AD&D 1e so all of my players at 3rd level already feel like total badasses. I image at 15th level they will be ridiculous....thus my analogy.
Yes, compared to typical members of their own race or society they will feel, if not god like, then at least like demi-gods or heroes of Greek mythology. "No mortal man can harm me." Unfortunately that doesn't take into account all the things that are at their level or above still, especially monsters which they alone have to deal with.
They feel like bad-asses to "normal" folks but like total punching bags to some of the nastiest critters of the world. Who they've already likely ticked off in some fashion. Take a Pit Fiend, if the PCs have been slaughtering rank after rank of minor Devil, the Pit Fiend(s) who were their superiors won't be happy to have had minions/favors/resources obliterated by some mortal flesh-bags.
DGRM, sarcasm is just another way to say something. It doesn't make anything less valid : and the rules don't let 15th level characters act as gods, even if imagination might.
BigNorseWolf, Create water changes the world enough just by offering clean water for drinks, no need to use it to irrigate the deserts. Towns don't have to be built next to rivers, there's no need for aqueducts, the general health of the population improves dramatically... And travelling through arid regions (but also across seas, and regular wilderness) become much simpler, as you point out. After that, yes, clerics can die too, but wells can be poisoned and aqueducts destroyed.
According to the settlements rules, there's at least one 1st level divine/arcane caster available in a thorp of 20 people. 3rd level spells become available in villages of 61-200 people.
And those can make magic items, especially traps (I meant actual traps with a trigger and a spell, not DM traps) with automatic resets and no limit on spellcasting. That's the way they're supposed to replace the farmers in a rules-based universe. Also, rings of sustenance.
BigNorseWolf, Create water changes the world enough just by offering clean water for drinks, no need to use it to irrigate the deserts. Towns don't have to be built next to rivers,
Towns are built next to rivers for transportation purposes, rather than water. Rome and london are built right next to a rivers and people relied on wells and pumps rather than the less than questionable quality of the river water.
there's no need for aqueducts
Aqueducts were primarily "needed" for baths. The sheer volume of water they produce would need half of the entire population to be adepts.
Powered entirely by gravity, they could carry large amounts of water very efficiently. The Pont du Gard could transport up to 20,000 cubic meters — nearly 6 million gallons — a day, and the combined aqueducts of the city of Rome supplied around 1 million cubic meters (300 million gallons) a day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct
the general health of the population improves d
ramatically... And travelling through arid regions (but also across seas, and regular wilderness) become much simpler, as you point out. After that, yes, clerics can die too, but wells can be poisoned and aqueducts destroyed.
If your well is poisoned you start digging elsewhere. If your adept dies you need to train a new one. You might be able to to dig the well fast enough, you will not be able to train the adept. It would be a VERY small town that was supplied only by one well.
things
I must admit I'm not that knowledgeable about waterworks.
I supppose that having a river nearby helps to raise the water table for wells, though.And I based my idea of aqueducts on something I read about the lack of drinkable water in late 1700's paris, the inflation of its cost, and the consecutive construction of new canals from nearby rivers. I think I read on wikipedia that the depopulation of carthage in the common era was due to the destruction of its (main?} aqueduct, too.
If your well is poisoned you start digging elsewhere. If your adept dies you need to train a new one.
Or you call the next village's.
Otherwise, create water traps (250gp, half a day to create, if I'm not mistaken ?) and decanters of endless water would probably be better. Is the cost of a well or aqueduct set in the rules somewhere ?
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So you imagine. How nice.Another example of a serious problem creeping in to these forums. I hope Paizo eventually gets stricter on this type of sarcastic garbage. Does nothing to further the discussion, only helps to alienate people from the forums and thus Paizo products by extension.
I see a problem with you assuming things about something that you haven't even tried. Try lvl15 play. Extensively. Try lvl 20 play extensively. Than we can talk on even ground.
I am sick and tired of people talking about how high level sucks and how the game breaks. The game doesn't break. They can't cope with it. I have never had problems with high level play as a GM.
thingsI must admit I'm not that knowledgeable about waterworks.
I have really odd interests.
Otherwise, create water traps (250gp, half a day to create, if I'm not mistaken ?) and decanters of endless water would probably be better. Is the cost of a well or aqueduct set in the rules somewhere ?
I don't know if a create water trap is RAI use for a trap. Decanters of endless water required far more than one to make up for a large aqueduct.
For an aquaduct the decanter would probably be cheaper, but is FAR easier to steal than an aqueduct. Even the Stronghold builders handbook didn't have prices for aquaducts. Which is probably a good thing. Thinking about an economy thats supposed to be for adventurers for anything else will make your brain explode.
For a well the cost isn't close. I'm not sure how long it takes to dig a well but peasants, rocks, and shovels are dirt cheap, so small towns would still be using those. (a peasant digging a hole is 1 sp per day) At worst it would be 30 gold for well.
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A level 15 character (or even a level 10 character), compared to the average inhabitant of most campaign settings (level 2-3 commoner) might as well be a god. They can pretty much instantly solve nearly any problem that would plague such a person. They can also, if angered, wipe that person out without a moment's thought. They have power over life and death.
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Probably the key thing for high level play is a way for other high level forces to shut down high level tactics.
This is only reasonable. Nobody of any accomplishment should be vulnerable to Scry and Fry.
First is, Interdiction is a VERY common effect in my game world. It raises the Spell level required to use any dimensional type spell by the level you cast the INterdiction at, it's easily made permanent, and it covers a huge area. Most major cities, and ALL important places, are covered with these things cast at from a slot 6 or higher. Unless you are Epic, you can't get in with dimension bending, and time stop don't work in that area. Likewise, monsters can't be summoned inside such areas.
It adds a whole lot of realism when populations don't have to worry about baddies popping out of nowhere.
Two, the threat of flying creatures is unreal. You have to shut them down.
Earthbind does that. It's a level 3 spell, the area increases drastically if you cast it from a higher slot, and it can be made permanent. Nothing above the area affected can use any form of unnatural flight. Basically, only bugs, bats and birds of natural origins can fly...everything else, from dragons to elementals, loses all lift and is forced to the ground. No flying over cities from a mile up and dropping shrunken boulders for hilarity...
Thanks for taking the time to post ... lots of good ideas here. Much appreciated.
I have really odd interests.
Well that's a good thing.
The Dungeonscape supplement has a page or two about "boon traps", set to cast beneficial spells on the monsters of the dungeon. So that idea occured to some developpers at least.
A decanter set on geyser produces 2,6 million gallons of water per day. As they would probably be placed in central points of the city, they could be guarded, or set in stone works, and quite harder to steal than the stones and pipes of out-of-town aqueducts.
A level 15 character (or even a level 10 character), compared to the average inhabitant of most campaign settings (level 2-3 commoner) might as well be a god. They can pretty much instantly solve nearly any problem that would plague such a person. They can also, if angered, wipe that person out without a moment's thought. They have power over life and death.
That's not the power of a god, that's the power of a common medieval lord. Gods' powers are actually defined by the fact that they do not solve problems...
I have really odd interests.Well that's a good thing.
The Dungeonscape supplement has a page or two about "boon traps", set to cast beneficial spells on the monsters of the dungeon. So that idea occured to some developpers at least.
ok, and if a player wanted to, without any feats, build a "trap" on his scabbard that cast keen edge when it was drawn, what would you say? This is quite obviously a magical item, not a trap. If someone wants to make the pouring device of britta, they can make it with craft wondrous item, which requires some actual levels.
A decanter set on geyser produces 2,6 million gallons of water per day. As they would probably be placed in central points of the city, they could be guarded, or set in stone works, and quite harder to steal than the stones and pipes of out-of-town aqueducts.
But much more portable. Its the difference between the statue of liberty, which is 225 tons and valued at 2,250,000 as scrap (lets be easy and say its all copper), and say the hope diamond. NO ONE is walking off with the statue of liberty as scrap metal. Someone COULD feasibly swipe the hope diamond. An aquaduct is a pile of rocks if you take it apart. That can be valuable, but transportation costs will either eat into your profits, or you'll have to use them locally. That tends to get you in trouble with the city that owns the aquaducts
Gods' powers are actually defined by the fact that they do not solve problems
Where do you think those cure disease spells come from?
Creating a magic trap requires Create Wondrous Items. It would cost 500gp less than a Scabbard of Keen Edges, and be usable all day... I would probably ask for a high Craft (trap) check, since the scabbard is small and exposed to impacts.
Or maybe I'd rule that traps can only be stationary. I suppose that some other spells could pose more of a problem, if the trap is set in a helmet or something.
Well, my point was that using the rules as a base for worldbuilding can create unexpected results, and that a DM that doesn't like those have to ignore or correct them, be it at high or low level.
For the statue of liberty, there's easier ways to steal copper than cutting bits of her dress. Aqueducts would be more exposed than this statue, because there's no easier way.
Where do you think those cure disease spells come from?
I meant the real-world examples...
Creating a magic trap requires Create Wondrous Items. It would cost 500gp less than a Scabbard of Keen Edges, and be usable all day... I would probably ask for a high Craft (trap) check, since the scabbard is small and exposed to impacts.
you're still designing what is clearly a magical item around the trap rules. I don't think it breaks verisimilitude if a questionable application of the rules is not how the in universe rules actually work.
Well, my point was that using the rules as a base for worldbuilding can create unexpected results, and that a DM that doesn't like those have to ignore or correct them, be it at high or low level.
Right, but a lot of complaints i see like this assumes that the technological equivalent of the magic item was far less effective than it is. When you compare what a water powered stone cutting mill can do compared to stone shape it turns out that there really ARE reasons to have regular tech.
For the statue of liberty, there's easier ways to steal copper than cutting bits of her dress. Aqueducts would be more exposed than this statue, because there's no easier way.
Right, but you'd basically be stealing ROCK, probably on pain of death. The aquaducts value lies in the order that the rocks are placed in you, you can't steal that without ruining it. Something intrinsically valuable on the other hand can be stolen without ruining it.
you're still designing what is clearly a magical item around the trap rules. I don't think it breaks verisimilitude if a questionable application of the rules is not how the in universe rules actually work.
Magical traps are magical items, as per the rules. It's not questionable... It does pose a problem when your good cleric wonders why he can make harmful traps that cast spells once per round indefinitely, but not beneficial ones.
When you compare what a water powered stone cutting mill can do compared to stone shape it turns out that there really ARE reasons to have regular tech.
Hm... stone shape seems quite powerful, but also quite open to DM interpretation. How do you compare ?
Right, but you'd basically be stealing ROCK, probably on pain of death. The aquaducts value lies in the order that the rocks are placed in you, you can't steal that without ruining it. Something intrinsically valuable on the other hand can be stolen without ruining it.
Cut stones are valuable (especially if sawmills really are more efficient than Stone shape), pipes are too. Not as much as a decanter of endless waters, but still. And even if it's a capital offense, you'd still have to be caught.
There's also the fact that the decanter absence is immediately noticeable, and that it can't be stopped without the command word. Stealing something that constantly shoots a 20-foot geyser and require a Strength check each round to hold on is not that easy.
Besides, Aqueducts are probably fused together into a single stone once they're completed.
There's any number of ways to do that in Pathfinder games.
That also means that they're that much more vulnerable to roaming monsters and humanoids.
That also means that they're that much more vulnerable to roaming monsters and humanoids.Besides, Aqueducts are probably fused together into a single stone once they're completed.
There's any number of ways to do that in Pathfinder games.
Which in a fantasy world is another point to consider. It may be actually more dangerous and costly to maintain an aqueduct then to create magical items that create water. Ever play Majesty (computer game, 1 or 2)? Ignoring general quality issues with it, things get very interesting when your civilization has to deal with other intelligent and hostile creatures inhabiting the world. A Roman style aqueduct would become both a gathering spot for mosters (hey, convenient water) and effectively a super highway for water bound creatures. Then you have evil humanoid tribes that will either break the aqueduct to let the water out for themselves (damn and divert also works).
When people bring up versamilatude I like it because it opens the door to talk about the critters that may actually be higher on the food chain then humanoids. :)
Where are Interdiction and Earthbind from? Are they houserules, or are they from 3.5? Just wondering, since those sound like very useful spells (from a security perspective), yet they're not in any of the Pathfinder books.
Interdiction and Earthbind are derived from old 1E sources. Interdiction is based on the old Proof Against Teleportation effect, except it scales and affects ANY messing with dimensions. Earthbind is similar, vs flight magic/effects. Shutting down magical flight should be easier then flying magically. Gravity, after all, doesn't want you ignoring it.
Both spells are based on the principle that it's easier to reinforce natural laws then it is to circumvent them. Thus, it's easier to block the ethereal then it is to become ethereal, it's easier to prevent something being raised/animated then it is to raise/animate them, etc. They still cost time/money/spell slots, but security becomes much less of a threat.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for taking the time to post ... lots of good ideas here. Much appreciated.Probably the key thing for high level play is a way for other high level forces to shut down high level tactics.
This is only reasonable. Nobody of any accomplishment should be vulnerable to Scry and Fry.
First is, Interdiction is a VERY common effect in my game world. It raises the Spell level required to use any dimensional type spell by the level you cast the INterdiction at, it's easily made permanent, and it covers a huge area. Most major cities, and ALL important places, are covered with these things cast at from a slot 6 or higher. Unless you are Epic, you can't get in with dimension bending, and time stop don't work in that area. Likewise, monsters can't be summoned inside such areas.
It adds a whole lot of realism when populations don't have to worry about baddies popping out of nowhere.
Two, the threat of flying creatures is unreal. You have to shut them down.
Earthbind does that. It's a level 3 spell, the area increases drastically if you cast it from a higher slot, and it can be made permanent. Nothing above the area affected can use any form of unnatural flight. Basically, only bugs, bats and birds of natural origins can fly...everything else, from dragons to elementals, loses all lift and is forced to the ground. No flying over cities from a mile up and dropping shrunken boulders for hilarity...
Welcome!
With high level play, believability and sustainability are key. Having strongpoints of any race that are vulnerable from multiple directions means that race should be extinct as something exploits it. One high level caster and your city falls when the army gates into the middle of the city behind the defenses?Shyeah, right.
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A trap that creates water falls into the exact same fallacy as the ring that casts cure minor wounds, or the True Strike sword.
Rule 1, compare to existing items, and the item that creates water is the decanter. A decanter that only pours a gallon a minute should indeed be much cheaper then one that can spray 30, however, but actually, the only variable is going to be caster level on the price.
And yes, all you have to do is look at magic missile or shocking grasp vs cure light wounds...it is considerably easier and more powerful to cast damaging spells in most instances then it is beneficial ones.
===Aelryinth
Magical traps are magical items, as per the rules. It's not questionable... It does pose a problem when your good cleric wonders why he can make harmful traps that cast spells once per round indefinitely, but not beneficial ones.
Because hurting is easier than fixing. Any idiot with a knife can cut an organ out, but it takes skill to put one back in.
Using a "trap" as a magic item to save costs is a few steps down from use activated true strike weaponry. Its cheap, cheesy, VERY questionably part of the rules as written, DEFINITELY not part of the rules as intended, much less something that should be taken into account when designing the world.
There's nothing stopping someone from inventing a mini decanter of a lot of water using the magic item creation rules... but as a magic item. Those are the rules its supposed to use. You can do what you want in a home game but you shouldn't expect settings to conform to something that is purely your house rules.
Hm... stone shape seems quite powerful, but also quite open to DM interpretation. How do you compare ?
By volume affected per day.
Cut stones are valuable (especially if sawmills really are more efficient than Stone shape), pipes are too. Not as much as a decanter of endless waters, but still. And even if it's a capital offense, you'd still have to be caught.
Which brings up the problem of distance. Most of the cost of stone is transport. If you take the stones far you may as well have just cut some rock yourself. If you stay close to the aqueduct people are going to notice that your nice new foundation looks suspiciously like the missing rocks.
Thanks to romans silver mining, lead was pretty cheap. Again, most of the cost of lead is working with it, and the only real use for a 20 foot long sheet of folded lead was ... as an aqueduct pipe. The costs of melting it down was about equal to the cost of the end product, and REALLLY noticeable. You did NOT want to be anywhere near a lead manufactory.
There's also the fact that the decanter absence is immediately noticeable, and that it can't be stopped without the command word. Stealing something that constantly shoots a 20-foot geyser and require a Strength check each round to hold on is not that easy.
But a clever criminal who can figure out HOW to do it is looking at a big payday. Several people would have to know the command word: the big muckety mucks in the water distribution center and the head of maintenance for example.
I find that the high cost of magic items tends to make them impractical for anything but military/adventuring applications. People don't understand the sheer SCALE of what even simple machines had to do for a small town, much less a city. Some other solutions for not breaking the game include
1) Some of the magic is new.
Just because its in teh PHB doesn't mean that the item has been around forever. Decanters of endless water for example could be the new fangled invention that people are slowly adapting their society around. The world is at the cusp of an industri.. ermm. magic item revolution. While one country might be installing utilitarian items in the street, others may be perfectly content with their working infrastructure that was good enough for their grandpa and his grandpa before them. People can take a LONG time to change how they've always done things. At best, you can still do the adventure in the recently abandoned sewer/aquaduct system they haven't gotten around to dismantling yet.
Merchants with hulls full of bags of holding are now making sea travel safer, more pleasant , and more affordable. Young turks with sleeker, faster, smaller ships are threatening the old established clunkers on the high seas.
2) Magic creates problems.
Our petroleum powered economy was thought to be our salvation from the pollution of horses and buggies until we found out it had a few... side effects. A wizard casting spells here and there isn't a problem, but when you have 20 decanters of endless water running non stop you start thinning the barrier to the elemental plane of water.
3) There's a limit on how much "magical stuff" is out there.
An adventurer really doesn't worry about whats IN that 1,000 gp of magical "stuff" that the wizard uses to make his magic sword, but if you're going to base an entire nations economy around it, it might come up. magic weapons might require certain ores, magical robes might require the silk from a giant spider etc. If you want to make one of these its no problem, if you want to start mass production for an entire nation you're going to cause a run in the market.
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A decanter set on geyser produces 2,6 million gallons of water per day. As they would probably be placed in central points of the city, they could be guarded, or set in stone works, and quite harder to steal than the stones and pipes of out-of-town aqueducts.
If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type of water as well as the volume and velocity.
“Stream” pours out 1 gallon per round.
“Fountain” produces a 5-foot-long stream at 5 gallons per round.
“Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round.
1 round = 6 seconds.
600 rounds to a hour, 24 hours to a day30*600*24= 432.000
Almost a full order of magnitude less than your number.
You cement your decanter at the centre of a fountain, that make it a bit more secure, but it still can be destroyed and or stolen.
What is more important the water come from somewhere.
- You are stealing it from the plane of water? Ops, sooner or later a angry elemental or marid could pass though you decanter ope and ask some explanation.
- it is a trasmutation effect. The prerequisite spell to make the item is control water. So maybe you are taking the water from the local water table.
- it actually create it from "thin air". So it consume magical energy. that energy is really endless? Or you are slowly creating a area do weak magic? (in the Mana Wastes there are areas of no magic or weird as a secondary effect of the use of extremely powerful spells during the war).
Almost a full order of magnitude less than your number.6 times less precisely. I counted seconds instead of rounds. My bad.
A trap that creates water falls into the exact same fallacy as the ring that casts cure minor wounds, or the True Strike sword.
Fallacy ? Hm...
The cure minor wounds ring and true strike sword would need to be use activated, though. I think. Do you not ? Which would keep them from being game-breaking.I'm not sure if they would need to be charged.
it is considerably easier and more powerful to cast damaging spells in most instances then it is beneficial ones. / Because hurting is easier than fixing.
Well, that's not entirely true. Sure, cure spells are not as powerful as damaging spells, but they don't require saving throws, and for that same reason buffing spells are more powerful than debuffing ones.
Were I a good cleric asking myself why can't I make those traps, I would not be satisfied by this explanation. It is easier for me to cast cure spells than any other kind.There's nothing stopping someone from inventing a mini decanter of a lot of water using the magic item creation rules... but as a magic item.
Magical traps are magic items. There's creation rules, nowhere does it say that they are not to be used. Banning them is the houserule, and a good one at that if it doesn't fit in your setting. All published settings I am aware of ignore a large part of the rules and thus require houserules if the DM value their internal consistency. That's what I expect.
On stone shape, stones, lead and clever thieves : stone shape can also be made into a trap, stones are not that easy to recognize under paint or lime and quarrying is a large part of their cost, lead is really easy to melt and mining isn't that cheap, decanters can be marked/recognized too, clever thieves are a constant and accepted risk in any society and usually don't prevent the use of valuable materials/equipment.
On the proposed explanations for the rarity of magic items : 1 and 2 are good. 3 raise a secondary problem, though, since an economy based on the use of magic items would also decrease the rarity and value of their components.
Diego rossi, your explanations are good too. I must admit that I like the tippyverse, and if it slowly falls apart on its own reasons, that makes it more interesting yet. "No you don't" houserules, on the contrary, make a setting less interesting for me...
The cure minor wounds ring and true strike sword would need to be use activated, though. I think. Do you not ? Which would keep them from being game-breaking.
I'm not sure if they would need to be charged.
By the Magic Item Creation guidelines, a use-activated (every time I hit with my sword) true-strike bracer would cost 8,000 gp. A magic item that gives a +20 insight bonus to hit would cost 400,000 gp. They do the same thing.
Which is of course why the Item Creation guidelines are just that, guidelines. Subject to a GM sanity check.
An item that gives +20 insight bonus to hit would work all the time, no ? A true strike weapon requires a standard action to activate to give a +20 to hit on the first attack of the following round.
An item that gives +20 insight bonus to hit would work all the time, no ? A true strike weapon requires a standard action to activate to give a +20 to hit on the first attack of the following round.
It could be built that way. But the 8,000 gp cost is the guidelines for a continuous (all the time) 1st level spell. So no action required. Every hit.
I think the continuous effect work only with spells with a duration of n rounds or longer.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
It doesn't mention any other kind of duration.
Fallacy ? Hm...
The cure minor wounds ring and true strike sword would need to be use activated, though. I think. Do you not ? Which would keep them from being game-breaking.
I'm not sure if they would need to be charged.
.. how on earth do you not consider a true strike use activated sword to be game breaking?
Well, that's not entirely true. Sure, cure spells are not as powerful as damaging spells, but they don't require saving throws
Cure Light Wounds
School conjuration (healing); Level bard 1, cleric 1, druid 1, paladin 1, ranger 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will half (harmless); see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless); see text
Were I a good cleric asking myself why can't I make those traps, I would not be satisfied by this explanation. It is easier for me to cast cure spells than any other kind.
Its kind of like asking why you can't make magic items cheaper, or why we can't violate the laws of conservation of energy.
Magical traps are magic items.
But not all magical items are magical traps.
There's creation rules, nowhere does it say that they are not to be used. Banning them is the houserule
I'm willing to forgive the devs for not being so banal as to spell out the idea that magical TRAPS were made according to the magical TRAP rules and magical ITEMS were made according to the magical ITEM creation rules. The game is complex enough to require a modicum of judgement from a human. There is nothing remotely "house rule" about saying that your paper thin excuse to cut a few GP off the construction costs of a magic item by renaming it a trap are now how the rules work.
stones are not that easy to recognize under paint or lime
But the new paint/lime is. Also, if you cut off the water to the high priests bath, chances are he's going to get out of the tub in a bad mood and have that thief's rear end scryed on before you can say wash rinse repeat. You can afford non detection when you're stealing magic items for a living. When you're stealing rocks.. not so much.
and quarrying is a large part of their cost, lead is really easy to melt and mining isn't that cheap
mining lead for the romans made money. they were after the silver that's found with lead, and they were basically getting the lead out of the way and had so much of it it was basically "Well now what do we do with this stuff?"
If you want to melt down a led figure you need a campfire. If you want to melt down a lead pipe you need massively roaring bonfire and the fumes will be a dead give away. Its the same reason we have a billion miles of coper wire in the US that will occasionally (but rarely) get cut for scrap.
decanters can be marked/recognized too, clever thieves are a constant and accepted risk in any society and usually don't prevent the use of valuable materials/equipment.
On stone shape, stones, lead and clever thieves : stone shape can also be made into a trap, stones are not that easy to recognize under paint or lime and quarrying is a large part of their cost, lead is really easy to melt and mining isn't that cheap, decanters can be marked/recognized too, clever thieves are a constant and accepted risk in any society and usually don't prevent the use of valuable materials/equipment.
3 raise a secondary problem, though, since an economy based on the use of magic items would also decrease the rarity and value of their components.
Not if there is a more or less fixed amount of the stuff that's available. That would INCREASE its value.
.. how on earth do you not consider a true strike use activated sword to be game breaking?
By considering that they only add +20 on the first hit every other round. Powerful in certain situations, but far from game-breaking.
For Cure spells, when they are used to cure people, their targets tend to fail their saving throws.
Its kind of like asking why you can't make magic items cheaper, or why we can't violate the laws of conservation of energy.
It really isn't. Magic items are usually explained to have costly components, and physical laws are consistent.
There is nothing remotely "house rule" about saying that your paper thin excuse to cut a few GP off the construction costs of a magic item by renaming it a trap are now how the rules work.
There is. That rule isn't written, so it's a houserule. Beneficial traps are even mentionned in the 3.5 rules. The difference they make is that traps are set in one place and can't be carried off, not that they use offensive spells.
Of course, judgement and houserules are necessary.But on that particular issue, I would think there's more reason to houserule it for setting consistency reasons than for game unbalance.
Newish paint or lime is quite common. Big fires more so. Permanent nondetection items won't resist many caster level checks against the high priest or his diviner, temporary nondetection won't be of much use. Locate object would work better on the decanter.
The fact that silver and lead were mined together don't make one free to mine. Only the rich romans used lead dishes and lead acetate flavoring, and not only for cultural reasons.
Not if there is a more or less fixed amount of the stuff that's available.
That's rare situation. Most things, when they become needed, can be obtained in larger quantities.
.. how on earth do you not consider a true strike use activated sword to be game breaking?By considering that they only add +20 on the first hit every other round. Powerful in certain situations, but far from game-breaking.
Use Activated, in the rules, means whenever the item is used. IE, when the sword is swung. No other action required.
It can be argued that True Strike has a duration of one round. Like I said, Magic Item Creation has guidelines, so the GMs say is final. I agree that True Strike all the time should be ridiculously more expensive.
By considering that they only add +20 on the first hit every other round. Powerful in certain situations, but far from game-breaking.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
What you're describing is NOT how a use activated sword works. It works whenever the sword is used (ie swung)
For Cure spells, when they are used to cure people, their targets tend to fail their saving throws.
No, their targets tend to voluntarily forgo their saving throws.
It really isn't. Magic items are usually explained to have costly components, and physical laws are consistent.
And why, for the love of pete, is it not game breaking to you that someone can waggle their fingers and summon the ontological manifestation of a being from another dimension but it IS game breaking to you that traps and magic items are made differently?
There is. That rule isn't written, so it's a houserule.
Oh malarky. Its the reasonable interpretation of the already existing rules, NOT a house rule. You use the magic item creation rules to make a magical item. You use the trap creation rules to make traps. You're not complaining about a game being broken you're TRYING to break it with blatant and willful sophistry. The idea that you need to make a trap is written, plain as day, clear as crystal when the rules say "Building a magic device trap "
You may as well ask why some impossible to spot high CR trap of Cure Light wounds isn't placed under the city gates so the citizens of the city can "survive" the trap every time they walk through, gain xp every day, and quickly get to 5th level by the time they shave. THIS IS SPARTA!
Beneficial traps are even mentionned in the 3.5 rules.
yes, right next to the line DON"T let people use this to make cheap magic items.
The difference they make is that traps are set in one place and can't be carried off, not that they use offensive spells.
No, the difference is that one is a TRAP and the other is a magic item.
Of course, judgement and houserules are necessary.
But on that particular issue, I would think there's more reason to houserule it for setting consistency reasons than for game unbalance.
.... the game is balanced so that magic items have a particular cost. how on earth is messing with that cost improving balance?
Big fires more so.
Big fires spreading a noxious, toxic smelling cloud over the countryside were Not common at the time and are not common in most settings. Take a wiff when you're working with lead solder. Imagine something about 100 times less pure. Then imagine 800 pounds of it on fire.
Permanent nondetection items won't resist many caster level checks against the high priest or his diviner, temporary nondetection won't be of much use. Locate object would work better on the decanter.
There are ways to pull that off commensurate with the payoff.
The fact that silver and lead were mined together don't make one free to mine. Only the rich romans used lead dishes and lead acetate flavoring, and not only for cultural reasons.
The lead was essentially free to mine. It was smelted as part of the process for getting silver.
Lead, a plentiful by-product of the ancient silver smelting process, was produced in the Roman Empire with an estimated peak production of 80,000 metric tons per year – a truly industrial scale.[1] The metal, along with other materials such as wood, clay, natural stone and Roman concrete, was used in the vast water supply network of the Romans for the manufacture of water pipes, particularly for urban plumbing.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_lead_pipe_inscription#Manufacture_of_pip es
That's rare situation. Most things, when they become needed, can be obtained in larger quantities.
Of course its a rare situation in the real world. But the number of say, dragon scales available in a fantasy setting is more or less fixed, or you could require a unicorn horn, or the eye gems of an earth elemental... the sort of thing thats highly dangerous to get. Something you might need adventurers for.
Back to the topic at hand. World building around a game that has 20th level casters is a bit strange indeed. I found that the scope of the game has to change a lot. My group is currently 17th level. They are running around in a mythic version of earth. At this point they can hop around wherever they wish to go. So in the last week of game time they've been to Easter Island, Ireland, Atlantis, and are heading to Carthage next.
While high level characters are potent forces wherever they go, they can't be everywhere at once. So plots start happening on a national scale. The villains secret lair (unhallowed with many protective spells each year) is only the tip of the iceberg. If the group has loved ones at home, they should beware retaliatory strikes while they are away.
So the game changes a lot at high level. A GM needs to shift their mindset away from wilderness travel and dungeon exploration. Start thinking of adventures that span continents.
I was mistaken, I read too fast some posts about this, my bad once again.
Though rereading the rules...
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
... the choice seems to be left to the DM and its player between a standard action and none. The activation action doesn't only depend on the type of the item, else a Trident of fish command (charm up to 14 HD of aquatic animals as per the spell charm animals) would require an attack action to activate. Since the effect of true strike applies on the caster/item user and he benefits of it on his next attack, it doesn't seem logical to me to apply the same mechanic as a Dagger of venom (poison as per the spell) and activate the use on a strike, even to gain the benefit on the next strike...
But that's not explicitely stated. So to come back on the original argument, yes, the price of a true strike effect that reactivates automatically for each attack should not be set according to the level of the spell. Too powerful by comparison to existing items, needs DM intervention.
But a create water trap, if i'm correct with the creation price of 250gp, since it has 1/15th of the maximum effect of a decanter (4500gp to create), is surprisingly close to the price estimated by comparison (4500/15=300).
For a create food and water (7500 to create), there's the Sustaining spoon that creates food for 4 persons per day, 2700 to create. By comparison, the trap should cost 29 millions. As a portable wondrous item it would cost 15000 (use-activated) or 13500 (command word). The difference of cost between the trap and the wondrous item seems acceptable considering the vulnerability and constraints of the trap version. It could be argued that the wondrous item version is underpriced too, but the comparison with the spoon is off too, so...
the DM arguing so will have to set its price, according to what he wants its players to do and its world to look like. Before high-level characters come into play.
No, their targets tend to voluntarily forgo their saving throws.
I remember the terms used to be "voluntarily fail". I won't check, that's irrelevant. Cure spells work more often.
why, is it not game breaking to you that someone can waggle their fingers and summon the ontological manifestation of a being from another dimension but it IS game breaking to you that traps and magic items are made differently?
I think there's been a misunderstanding at one point. Neither are game-breaking to me.
You may as well ask why some impossible to spot high CR trap of Cure Light wounds isn't placed under the city gates so the citizens of the city can "survive" the trap every time they walk through, gain xp every day, and quickly get to 5th level by the time they shave.
Close. I'm asking why some trap of cure lights wounds of normal CR and DCs (I don't think you can increase the CR of a magic trap, except by adding metamagic on the spell, or a higher level spell) isn't placed under the city's "hospital" gates so the citizen can get healed when they need. They shouldn't earn XP from this trap, I suppose, since it's non-threatening and not an achievement of any kind. And I'm asking this to the DMs that say that low-level D&D allow for middle-earth-like settings without needing the DM to correct the characters' (player or non-player) abilities.
I am, I repeat, not complaining about a game being broken, or trying to break it. THIS IS NOT MY POINT!
I didn't see the line about not letting players make traps. I saw the line about the reduced usefulness of immobile beneficial traps for adventurers, though.
The game is balanced so that traps, being less useful, cost less than rings or wondrous items. That's not perfect, and the cost rules for each type of item aren't either (see last post), but that's not so important. Even if you use wondrous items rules to build your create food and water item, you can still change the game world.
On the romans : I imagine those 800 pounds, and I don't imagine that would bring the guard to you (assuming we swapped to a typical fantasy setting) regardless of your precautions. Lead shared the costs of its extraction along with silver. Of course, there's high-level thieves too for the decanters, but at this point there's better stuff around to steal, it's only 9000gp in a regular market, and they're better off harvesting dragon scales and unicorn horns than getting all the high priests of the civilized world angered. They're easier to sell.
Back to the topic at hand. World building around a game that has 20th level casters is a bit strange indeed. I found that the scope of the game has to change a lot. My group is currently 17th level. They are running around in a mythic version of earth. At this point they can hop around wherever they wish to go. So in the last week of game time they've been to Easter Island, Ireland, Atlantis, and are heading to Carthage next.
While high level characters are potent forces wherever they go, they can't be everywhere at once. So plots start happening on a national scale. The villains secret lair (unhallowed with many protective spells each year) is only the tip of the iceberg. If the group has loved ones at home, they should beware retaliatory strikes while they are away.
So the game changes a lot at high level. A GM needs to shift their mindset away from wilderness travel and dungeon exploration. Start thinking of adventures that span continents.
I agree, "dungeons" can be (and should be) broken into distant chunks with a time/reaction component. If players can go any place at any time then adventures should use that. Activation of different arcane sites in a sequence to open a time sensitive inner sanctum is perfectly viable at higher levels.
Time pressure is for two reasons. 1) to keep casters from "reloading" and 2) to add a bit of focus/pressure to completion.
I don't know how to write adventures for that kind of stupid power. When players say they want that kind of power, I just point at them and laugh. "What a loser you are, that you can't just enjoy fantasy, you need it to be this ridiculous power fantasy, where you're unstoppable. Get a life."
+++ a thousand times
This is why I love Terry Brooks. The vast majority of his heroes are level ~1 characters.
I don't know how to write adventures for that kind of stupid power. When players say they want that kind of power, I just point at them and laugh. "What a loser you are, that you can't just enjoy fantasy, you need it to be this ridiculous power fantasy, where you're unstoppable. Get a life."+++ a thousand times
This is why I love Terry Brooks. The vast majority of his heroes are level ~1 characters.
Sounds like a Gamemastery Guide to high level play (including adventuring writing at that level) would be right in like.
A "I don't know" begs a "here's how" response.
I will agree that DBZ did spend a bit to much time on screaming Ki charging shirtless dudes. Yu Yu Hakusho would be the slightly better Anime/Manga to follow in this case. Personally Gurren Lagann remains perhaps the best Anime analogy to Pathfinder play. Do you like running from Pit Village to Pit Village, or do you want to take on the power of the Capital? How about the Anti-Spirals? The Spiral Nemesis?
A True Strike bow that worked as per the spell (SA to activate, basically use 1/other round) actually existed in the 3E Sword and Fist book, halflings only. It's not THAT imbalanced, unless you start launching autokill attacks with it.
Applying that to a Bracer could be a game breaker for spellcasters, always hitting with ranged touch attacks or ranged attacks.
Making it a Quickened True Strike spell, the logical next step, basically turns it into a continuous magic item.
So, we don't go there in 3.5 and PF.
Likewise, we don't go with infinite food creation, although infinite water is okay because you can't eat water, and anybody can live next to a river. Absalom's rulership is defined by ownership of the Cornucopia that can feed the entire city if it is besieged, and they are basically the defining artifacts of the place.
just like true strike, infinite food creation is an Epic level thing. Likewise, infinite healing on demand from a magic item should be an Epic level thing. Kindly note that if you want to use 3.5 rules, you can always take the Heirophant ability to make a spell 8 levels less a spell like ability, and choose CLW. OR you could simply learn Healing Reserve and heal people up to half HP or all, or get an Aura that does the same from multiple sources, etc.
But infinite, wide open healing is generally considered epic or very high level, too.
===Aelryinth
I'm asking why some trap of cure lights wounds of normal CR and DCs (I don't think you can increase the CR of a magic trap, except by adding metamagic on the spell, or a higher level spell) isn't placed under the city's "hospital" gates so the citizen can get healed when they need.
Answer: The rules of the universe make such an item obscenely expensive to make. You misunderstand the rules the game and subsequently its world when you try to shoehorn a magical item into a trap.
They shouldn't earn XP from this trap, I suppose, since it's non-threatening and not an achievement of any kind. And I'm asking this to the DMs that say that low-level D&D allow for middle-earth-like settings without needing the DM to correct the characters' (player or non-player) abilities.
Answer: Other DM's are not using your house rule to run the magic items as traps.
Why, in the real world, is there nothing that's good for you that tastes good? 8 Billion chemicals on the planet and we can't find something that people want to eat thats good for them. Why is it easier to build a 1,000 mile wall than a quantum computer? Its just the way the world works. Some things are harder/more expensive to do and permanant magical items are one of them.
I didn't see the line about not letting players make traps. I saw the line about the reduced usefulness of immobile beneficial traps for adventurers, though.
Rules for adventurers are similar to those for cats.
Rule 1: Anything that is not nailed down is loot.
Rule 2: Anything that can be dug out of the dungeon with a pick, hammer, wedges, crowbars, and high explosives is not nailed down.
The game is balanced so that traps, being less useful, cost less than rings or wondrous items. That's not perfect, and the cost rules for each type of item aren't either (see last post), but that's not so important. Even if you use wondrous items rules to build your create food and water item, you can still change the game world.
With the decanter of endless water there's still an argument to be made for the aqueduct. There's also an argument for the decanter. Some societies would pick 1, some would pick the other.
With the spoon its no contest. The sustaining spoon has a cost of 5,400 gp. It doesn't matter if you think that's not how the rules of the universe should work, the fact is that making this item is harder than the general trends would indicate. Again, you can not assume that the rule breaking way you use traps is how the game and the game system works.
The spoon produces 4 persons worth of meals per day with something that sounds WORSE than the poor meal. Poor meals for a day cost 1 silver peice per day. The spoon would pay for itself in 54,000 days or ~148 years (assuming a no interest loan). The turnip farmer is in no danger of loosing out to the item because no one except adventurers and large government have that kind of cash to burn all at once, only elves would consider that long term investment and only dwarves would ever live off gruel as food for 150 years.(probably to have extra beer money)
On the romans : I imagine those 800 pounds, and I don't imagine that would bring the guard to you (assuming we swapped to a typical fantasy setting)
Having your stuff taken looks bad. It makes you look weak, and encourages other people to take your stuff. Governments tend to crack down very hard on that sort of thing.
Of course, there's high-level thieves too for the decanters, but at this point there's better stuff around to steal, it's only 9000gp in a regular market, and they're better off harvesting dragon scales and unicorn horns than getting all the high priests of the civilized world angered. They're easier to sell.
Easier yes. Safer.. mayby. The PC's may encounter level appropriate monsters as a matter of course, but there's no reason that has to be the case for the NPC's. Level 5 NPC thieves run into the beholder nest all the time, and that fifth level knight errant can run into a larger than expected dragon.
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Could we get back on topic, as a GM who is approaching High Level play in his Kingmaker game tips and advice on smoothing out the 12+ level experience for both GMs and players would be super helpful.
For example NPC creation - while it's much easier than it was during 3.0/3.5 is still a bit of a nuisance.
What would be handy is taking something like this table:
Monster Creation Guidelines and a menu of abilities that will see use during a game (oddly enough I realise I'm asking for something that's become a 4th Ed. hallmark), but reducing NPC/monster complexity would go a long way to helping out those GMs who don't have hours to spare.
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I agree, Dudemeister. Some way of simplifying NPC statblock creation would be good. Generic stat blocks could work. One for the "warrior" classes, one for the "adventurer" classes, and one for the "mage" classes. Perhaps at various challenge ratings. Or a table similar to "Monster Statisticss by CR" for each of those class groups.