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In another thread James Jacobs mentioned that our feedback would be vary valuable for them, when and if they turn to making a post 20 book.
So let's give our feedback. Write about anything you feel relevant to the point.
About things that worked in ELH, things that didn't work, why they worked and why they didn't.
Specific stuff, general stuff.
About the feel of epic levels, if it was good why was it good, if it felt wrong, why did it feel wrong.
What should be avoided and what should be definetly put in a book like this.
Let's help those guys and gals make a good rulebook for the game we all love and cherish.
Also, people not interested in 20+ play, if you have nothing constructive to say, please do not post in this topic.
My own experience with epic play was several campaigns that ended quickly and several epic tournaments.
My first big peeve: Epic spells. They were broken. The spellmaking was kinda cool in theory, but by reducing all stats of my druid to 3, his hp to 1 and making him disabled (all of which the cleric easily removed with a spell of his own, i could have a permanent +120 bonus to wisdom, or could cast a spell that did 200d6 points of damage. As cool as it sounds, there is no need for such ludicruous numbers.
If there are to be epic spells, they should be seriously redone and thought over.
My next peeve/point will be feats, but for that i have to delve into the ELH (it's been a while) and then give my feedback.
So ladies and gents, let's kick this thing off...
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Removed a post. Please keep to the topic at hand and be civil.
Definitely no epic spell seeds. That was horrendous. I'd like for casters to continue receiving spell slots for spells augmented by meta-magic feats. I mean when a 30th level wizard could have a more than a few 9th, 8th and 7th level spells maxed out with just about every conceivable meta-magic feat, that's quite epic enough.
I'm also somewhat fond of a 4e epic destiny concept instead of some sort of epic prc. Logan Bonner wrote a very good article for wizards.com three years ago converting the ED concept over to 3.5. It was too heavy on the immortality side but the basic idea was sound.
To be honest if they just have a basic framework for above 20 play and let us fill in the rest, I'd be satisfied.
yes i agree to no spell seeds. id like to see more spell slots like 10th, 11th, etc level spells but im not sure what they would do.
what i would rather see is ways similar to what UM had for making spells and allow the players to make their own epic spells. this way it allows for more flexiblility and creativity (besides until now there hasnt been anything to create your own spells so you cant get certain named spells. i mean how did the other high level casters do it?).
maybe some sort of mechanic where you can add certain "seeds" together to create a spell (similar to word casters) and you can add so many of these "seeds" to one specific spell depending on your level or the level of the spell slot (you put 2 to 3 seeds together to create a 10th level spell, etc). epic casting in 3.0 had a lot of problems.
i would also like to see less emphasis on spells and maybe more abilities of being high level (similar to the arcane discoveries in UM and the sigils and talents in the Sorcerer Aid Project: Sigils & Talents pdf). makes higher level casters have more flavor and style.
Well, some basic feedback. Not that I haven't said any of it before, but it bears repeating.
- At high levels, I've found plot to be more important than combat. When the players can literally do whatever they want, they have to want to do things - and that's the responsibility of plot. Combat just becomes a drag after a whil (though still occasionally fun).
- Much as I like the Multispell feat, I think it's a mistake, and just drags the game down. The increase in power is sufficient.
- At higher levels, ability damage/drain and energy drain are much scarier than hit point damage.
- Wealth By Level can be a campaign-ending slope - the higher level the characters, the more insane their magical might is if the tables are followed strictly.
- Absolutes are especially painful at higher levels. Freedom of movement, for example, completely negates many monsters, including ones such as vampires that depend on a grapple.
I have not yet tried to run pure Pathfinder above 20th level; I'll be doing so this Sunday. I will keep everyone posted.
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I thought that Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved with its 10th level spells, and other products working with level spells seemed more logically tied to the existing spell system than spell seeds. I think that one important consideration for mythic play is that there is a sense that things flow from the earlier system -- much like a creek flows into a larger river. I like what thenobledrake said about fighters -- one of the most overpowered characters I ever saw was a fighter/barbarian using feats and equipment from several different sources. (Epic equipment is one thing, but I think that epic level fighters should be able to do amazing things because of their abilities.)
Plot is important, and I think that mythic play should have the feel that what the characters are doing is vital and powerful. (The epic level city, Union, did not live up to this.) I think a lot of good advice to GMs and players would be in order.
Here's my two cp:
1. Base attack: While it was a good idea for the ELH to stop increasing iterative attacks and to limit BAB increase to +1/2 levels, this created a weird case where Fighter 20/Wizard 20 had a better BAB than Wizard 20/Fighter 20. Whatever limitations are in place, they should not cause differences in multiclass characters based on the order the classes are taken.
2. Epic Spells: Being able to craft your own spells is pretty cool, but open to terrible abuse in the ELH, especially since it was tied to skill rank- which could be boosted through the stratosphere. I agree with the post above suggesting something similar to a Words of Power system, where the Epic Spell's power is limited by available spell slots.
What should epic spells be able to do? Mass effects- teleport/ward/enhance entire cities. Conjure entire armies of creatures. Animate armies of undead (and more than just skeletons and zombies). Create flying castles from nowhere. Time Travel. Permanent Spatial and Dimensional Gates- or a hundred miniature gates. Change the caster's creature type. Backup instant or delayed resurrection. Resurrect creatures dead for thousands of years or that died of old age. Energy so hot/cold/shocking/dissolving that it overcomes resistance or immunities. Selective barriers that do not hinder the caster or his allies. Revelation of all enemies' strengths and weaknesses. The ability to be in multiple places at the same time. Create new materials. Create new kinds of intelligence/life. Advanced gravity manipulation. Local omniscience. Animate a mountain. Illusions so convincing that they are effectively real. Grant powers to followers. Create a miniature sun/moon. Permanent alterations to landscape features or weather. The ability to counter all of the above.
3. Epic combat: Techniques that border on the mystical. Book of Nine swords is a nonepic example, but something along those lines could be interesting.
4. Challenges that can't be overcome by power alone.
5. Along the lines of Kingmaker, rules for strongholds/extradimensional realms/minions/kingdoms. Personal wealth at epic levels is also going to be practically irrelevant- its a different kind of economy.
I also think that since the 20th+ level handbook will be made generic, there also needs to be a book for the campaign setting which describes 20th+ level encounters, npcs, etc. Also detailing some of the high high high level spells that wizards like nex, geb, aroden, etc have cast in the past.
My first big peeve: Epic spells. They were broken. The spellmaking was kinda cool in theory, but by reducing all stats of my druid to 3, his hp to 1 and making him disabled (all of which the cleric easily removed with a spell of his own, i could have a permanent +120 bonus to wisdom, or could cast a spell that did 200d6 points of damage. As cool as it sounds, there is no need for such ludicruous numbers.If there are to be epic spells, they should be seriously redone and thought over.
My next peeve/point will be feats, but for that i have to delve into the ELH (it's been a while) and then give my feedback.
So ladies and gents, let's kick this thing off...
I'd like new spells of 10th level and above. For example, a necromancy spell that causes corpses, offal, and giant dismembered organs to rain from the sky, burying people with direct damage, then crushing everyone in range like a Strength 40 Gargantuan crushing hand spell, or an evocation that deals 10 points of electricity damage per caster level to one creature with a Fortitude save for half, or a spell that disintegrates creatures and objects in a 40 ft spread from long range (and with no cover bonus, since obstacles are disintegrated along the way). I'd like to see a ray that causes 3d6 negative levels. I'd like to see a version of demand that has dominate monster attached instead of suggestion. I'd like to dominate and command 1 humanoid per level as a full-round action.I'd like to create duplicates of an enemy that will fight it, like a mirror of opposition but with the duplicate based off of shadow conjuration.
I'd like to see spells that turn the barbarian Colossal for 10 minutes per level, divinations that work like the vizier card from the deck of many things. I'd like to see an antimagic field with a range of medium and an area of 1 10 ft cube per level. I'd like to see a spell that creates 1portal per 4 caster levels connected to every other within long range that act like giant ring gates with multiple destinations. I'd like a conjuration (creation) spell that creates an adamantine golem for 1 minute per level.
I would like to see the standard progressions for level 1-20 continue past 20. However, I would like to see a cap (for mortals, at least) somewhere before level 40, since the mathematics behind the d20 system break down completely at level 40. (Specifically, the difference between bonuses that increase at a rate equal to your level, and bonuses that increase at a rate equal to half your level. A wizard would need a natural 20 to make a melee hit that a fighter would still make on a roll of a 1.)
There definitely needs to be a cap on how many bonuses can be put into an item. The ridiculousness of pumping 15 different types of bonuses into a single item is simply unspeakable. There should also be a stronger delineation between Epic magic item and Artifact. Maybe cap Epic items at twice what a standard item can do, and let Artifacts be unlimited, but can only be crafted by demigods or deities.
I liked the 2e flavor where deities were as far ahead of demigods as demigods were ahead of mortals, and really disliked when 3e Deities and Demigods blurred the line. Also disliked the disconnect between 3e epic and deity rules. Plus, a lot of the abilities in d20 Anime would make better divine abilities than what we got in D&DG.
Epic Spellcasting was done horribly, though the spell seed system might be salvageable as a basis for a spell research system for spells of level 10+. Words of Power do a pretty good job of that too, though.
Paragon template == bad cheese. Could potentially be turned into 'good' cheese by tying to bonus hit dice and tweaking to something more like the 'monster of legend' template, making it more of a basis for a set of guidelines for building racial deities.
For martial characters, I want to see them get pounce or an unbelievable bonus damage from charging. I want to see the barbarian power attack the stone giant elder Fighter 20 so hard he goes flying 50 feet. I want to see a feat or class progression that adds +5 to the worst iterative attack bonus until all four use the same number (helps keep up with the crazy spell damage).
I want to see a rogue jump off a mountainside, full attack a flying dragon and hit each time, then land harmlessly on the ground below.
I want my fighter's Strength check to duplicate a move earth spell. I want my rogue's acrobatics check to let them tightrope walk across a pit of lava on a cobweb. I want my ranger to bullseye a target standing at the horizon. I want rogues to be able to use stealth when there is no concealment or cover at all--they're simply there. I want critical hits with Power Attack to deal an additional 10 points of damage per point of Strength bonus if the target fails a Fort save.
I want monks running up walls, jumping dozens of yards, punching through stone and adamantine as if they were superman. I want belts of physical might +16, but with other abilities that make them interesting.
But I don't want it all right away... 20 and 21 shouldn't be much different. All the crazy powers grow organically.
I want the story to speak of mythic themes. Grittiness is gone. No more scouting hedge wizard laboratories; the rogue should sneak into the castle of the sun stealer to retrieve the box that holds the light of the morning star within it. The cleric and paladin eradicate the Root of All Evil forever. The wizard knows everything that has ever happened and thus much of what will be. The bard at last can hear the music that the planets sing in their unending cycle, and can join breath with the cosmic spheres.
So you get the idea. Adventures here are metaphysical, even if the game rules are kept. Take the grandeur and symbolism of a creation myth, and apply it to the end of the world... and perhaps its rebirth.
When talking about Epic stuff lots of people are excited about Epic spells and the like. What I would like to see about this level of play are character options and/or feats that put fighters and the like into the same playing field.
The ability to swat spells away with your sword, or just shrug them off, or wrestle golems to a pinfall...
Most of all, I would like to see options.
For example, some of the posters above clearly want epic rules that let them continue the exponential power increase of levels 1-20.
Whereas I'd much rather have epic rules that flatten off after level 20, and where increased level means increased versatility more than raw power.
It's fairly clear that one rule system won't satisfy both groups; thus, the book needs to present options and allow the individual game group to pick which optional rules to use.
I'd also like to see a good chunk of GM advice on how to actually run an epic game that is, well, epic - rather than just a monster-of-the-week-with-high-numbers slog. (Well, unless your group *wants* to just kill off whoever is trying to blow up the world today - in which case, more power to you, but I'll sit out of that game, thanks. See also "options", above.)
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I have played in a couple of epic games, and run one in the 3.0 era. Here are what I think are the good/bad things from the ELH:
1. Normalizing attack/saves progression was a good idea, but I never liked how it makes your BAB/saves depend on what order you took your levels in. Also, iterative attacks should have continued accumulating up to 4.
2. Not all "monk-style" epic feats would be useless now - I seem to remember one that let you deflect rays. Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell are just ridiculous - I once saw a 30+ caster get off 4 quickened intensified time stops in one round. Yeah, 40 rounds of actions took a while to do. "Pounce" style feats are probably a good thing for epic fighters.
3. Epic Spellcasting was just borked. Requires so much GM oversight to prevent both abuses and underpowered stuff. Level 25 characters should not be able to have a 3500 AC with a DC 35 spellcraft check. (This is not hyperbole, it actually happened). I prefer actually defining some level 10-12 spells. It doesn't bother me that these would be bigger than wish, wish has some definite restrictions on its power level. Heck, I could see a 12th level improved wish that let you do more.
4. High level item creation takes way too long. There should be options for speeding it up in case the World Nommer arrives in 3 days and you need an item now. I've never played in a game where the PCs had 6 months to sit around making a +10 sword, or 6 years to make a +11 one. (My solution as a PC crafter was to build a workshop that cast intensified time stop every round for x10 crafting rate).
5. Once you get to epic monsters, I think there need to be some guildlines other than CR to help the GM decide on appropriate challenges. If you have two different level 26 parties take on a CR 26 monster, one group will one-shot it while the other spends 2 4-hour sessions bouncing against it in frustration.
I run a Spelljammer game with 30th level characters using the basic epic rules.
I want to play in this game SO BAD! ;-)
4. High level item creation takes way too long. There should be options for speeding it up in case the World Nommer arrives in 3 days and you need an item now. I've never played in a game where the PCs had 6 months to sit around making a +10 sword, or 6 years to make a +11 one. (My solution as a PC crafter was to build a workshop that cast intensified time stop every round for x10 crafting rate).
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With the new ninth level create demiplane spell you can make magic effects within the plane effectively permanent while within the plane. SO cast time stop once and it's basically permanent until you leave or dispel it. That'd be my plan for item creation. Assuming you had all the components you could appear to make it overnight. Though if you're going to spend 6 years in a time stop you better have something to do to keep your mind busy. Also without immortality you'll age horribly.
1) It shouldn't matter what order classes were taken for a multi-class character, for things like BAB and saves (and iterative attacks). I'm OK with some eventual threshold followed by slowed advancement for everyone, but a wizard 20 / fighter 20 should be at least as good a fighter as a fighter 20 even if all those levels were taken post-20.
2) Powers shouldn't be ridiculous, but they should be cool. I want more than just continuations of +1 every x level advancements. Abilities that can only be gotten *after* the 20th level capstone should reflect the level of power involved, but they should still be part of the same continuum - no "automatic" this and "unlimited" that, it gets silly quickly.
3) Flexibility. Past a certain point, every character is it's own archetype. Choose some powers from a list instead of mandating them per level.
4) Single classing should still be powerful. A character shouldn't have to take an epic prestige class to get the goodies.
So let's give our feedback. Write about anything you feel relevant to the point.
I add my +1 to no 'epic spells' as per the ELH. I would like to see casters continue to get more and high level spell slots as a standard progression as many have stated as well as seeing martial types continue in their roles appropriately.
What I would REALLY love to see is an EXTENSIVE examination of the two most problematic spells in existence, Wish and Miracle, and how to keep them usable while not having them destroy games. These two spells break most campaigns by themselves due the truly massive and open ended nature of their abilities.
OR
They are rendered to near uselessness, despite their 9th level power, by referee's who see them as a means of twisting any and all uses of them to something cruelly funny to themselves since the spells suggest that can happen so they think it MUST happen on all uses.
I would assume that 99% of the times a person posts "When the players can literally do whatever they want..." it is because of those two spells.
Honestly in a Mythic level game I would love to see them put at 10th level, be the ONLY 10th level magic, and have entire PAGES dedicated to what they can and CANNOT do and how they should be usefully limited in play so as not to destroy stories.
There should be drastic, permanent and irreversable costs for using such magic so as not to make them the go to spells for anything as long as you have one memorised.
I don't think we need non-artifact weapons with an enhancement bonus higher than +5. A magic sword should bypass epic weapon damage reduction because it was forged under dragon fire and quenched in the blood of Aroden not because it's +6.
9th level spells are as high-level as we need. Improved Spell Capacity allows for higher-level versions of 9th level spells without breaking the system (i.e. Extended Time Stop).
A Level 30 cap keeps things from getting out of hand. No individuals more powerful than Demogorgon and so forth. Iggwilv as statted up in Dungeon Magazine was an example of a mortal as powerful as one ever needed to be - she didn't need her epic spells to be badass.
I have played in a couple of epic games, and run one in the 3.0 era. Here are what I think are the good/bad things from the ELH:
1. Normalizing attack/saves progression was a good idea, but I never liked how it makes your BAB/saves depend on what order you took your levels in. Also, iterative attacks should have continued accumulating up to 4.
1) It shouldn't matter what order classes were taken for a multi-class character, for things like BAB and saves (and iterative attacks). I'm OK with some eventual threshold followed by slowed advancement for everyone, but a wizard 20 / fighter 20 should be at least as good a fighter as a fighter 20 even if all those levels were taken post-20.
Gotta disagree on this one. I think it should matter what a character's "core" competency is. Otherwise at a certain point every character ends up feeling kind of the same.
There's nothing wrong with someone who goes 20 fighter and then 20 wizard being different than someone who does the opposite, and I think it makes for greater variety.
2. Not all "monk-style" epic feats would be useless now - I seem to remember one that let you deflect rays. Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell are just ridiculous - I once saw a 30+ caster get off 4 quickened intensified time stops in one round. Yeah, 40 rounds of actions took a while to do. "Pounce" style feats are probably a good thing for epic fighters.
What the heck is an intensified time stop? A time stop that does an extra 10d6 damage? :)
3. Epic Spellcasting was just borked. Requires so much GM oversight to prevent both abuses and underpowered stuff. Level 25 characters should not be able to have a 3500 AC with a DC 35 spellcraft check. (This is not hyperbole, it actually happened). I prefer actually defining some level 10-12 spells. It doesn't bother me that these would be bigger than wish, wish has some definite restrictions on its power level. Heck, I could see a 12th level improved wish that let you do more.
Yeah, pretty much everyone agrees about this one.
4. High level item creation takes way too long. There should be options for speeding it up in case the World Nommer arrives in 3 days and you need an item now. I've never played in a game where the PCs had 6 months to sit around making a +10 sword, or 6 years to make a +11 one. (My solution as a PC crafter was to build a workshop that cast intensified time stop every round for x10 crafting rate).
Maybe. Maybe not. I already get spoken to for not following the Wealth By Level mandates (not by my players, but here on the boards). I think that increasing the amount of magic booty available to the characters will make the problems worse, not better.
5. Once you get to epic monsters, I think there need to be some guildlines other than CR to help the GM decide on appropriate challenges. If you have two different level 26 parties take on a CR 26 monster, one group will one-shot it while the other spends 2 4-hour sessions bouncing against it in frustration.
Yeah. But that's more GM knowledge of the players and characters than anything else. There's some crazy stuff out there, and every once in a while one of my players pulls a new one out of their hat (like the "oh, Master of Many Forms is immune to all transmutation effects" that I ran into the other day).
You never know what an uber-high level party is going to do - but that has to be part of the fun of it, not something to be stomped out like some sort of virus.
2) Powers shouldn't be ridiculous, but they should be cool. I want more than just continuations of +1 every x level advancements. Abilities that can only be gotten *after* the 20th level capstone should reflect the level of power involved, but they should still be part of the same continuum - no "automatic" this and "unlimited" that, it gets silly quickly.
Note that automatic (as in Automatic Maximize, Automatic Quicken, et al) is different than something that happens automatically (such as freedom of movement automatically making a grapple fail). I call the latter absolutes. Absolutes are a big-time problem for high level play.
Invisibility is one of the things they got right somehow - rather than automatically failing spot checks, invisible creatures just get a plus on their Stealth. Now that's the way to do it. Likewise, Paizo did a great thing removing the +20 cap on dispel magic, making it scalable.
Unlimited anything is just bad in general, though in minor doses it's okay. I don't have the antipathy towards unlimited cantrips some do, and clearly things like the number of attacks per day shouldn't be limited. Can you imagine if fighters had something like 10 attacks per day per level? Heheheheh.
3) Flexibility. Past a certain point, every character is it's own archetype. Choose some powers from a list instead of mandating them per level.
That's what feats are, though some classes like barbarian and rogue are already this way. I don't necessarily think that every single class needs to be like this. Keep that kind of thing in feats, rather than going the 4e way of giant lists of powers per class.
4) Single classing should still be powerful. A character shouldn't have to take an epic prestige class to get the goodies.
Our discovery was that even under 3.5e, single classing tends to outclass multiclassing, though there's certain sweet spots where it's hard to notice. I do know that the major multiclasser in our group felt pretty weak in the 20-30 range compared to his single-classed allies.
What I would REALLY love to see is an EXTENSIVE examination of the two most problematic spells in existence, Wish and Miracle, and how to keep them usable while not having them destroy games. These two spells break most campaigns by themselves due the truly massive and open ended nature of their abilities.
My take on it is that it's a failure in interpretation, likely caused by the name. Wish and miracle imply an open-ended Aladdin-style do anything you want type of thing.
#1. It's only a 9th-level spell. Look at what other 9th-level spells do. They're powerful, but it's not like they can do anything.
#2. The guidelines in wish itself are pretty limiting. It's not like you can wish to win a combat, or rule the universe, or even rule a kingdom. So I think part of the issue here is setting reasonable expectations in the first place.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
There's a pretty good baseline here for the expected power. If it were called use raw magic instead of wish it's likely that fewer people would expect it to do such insane things.
Check out that fourth one. If you're trying to do something that's not even on your spell list, you're limited to about 6th-level in power.
Shouldn't exactly be worldbreaking, I'd say.
I have played in a couple of epic games, and run one in the 3.0 era. Here are what I think are the good/bad things from the ELH:
1. Normalizing attack/saves progression was a good idea, but I never liked how it makes your BAB/saves depend on what order you took your levels in. Also, iterative attacks should have continued accumulating up to 4.
1) It shouldn't matter what order classes were taken for a multi-class character, for things like BAB and saves (and iterative attacks). I'm OK with some eventual threshold followed by slowed advancement for everyone, but a wizard 20 / fighter 20 should be at least as good a fighter as a fighter 20 even if all those levels were taken post-20.Gotta disagree on this one. I think it should matter what a character's "core" competency is. Otherwise at a certain point every character ends up feeling kind of the same.
There's nothing wrong with someone who goes 20 fighter and then 20 wizard being different than someone who does the opposite, and I think it makes for greater variety.
And I have to disagree with your disagreement XD
Part of what makes Pathfinder a bit easier is how quickly you can create NPCs. The change in the way Skill Ranks work vs 3.5 Skill Points is a biggy. The less you have to deal with "build order" when creating high level NPCs the quicker it is to stat them up.
1) It shouldn't matter what order classes were taken for a multi-class character, for things like BAB and saves (and iterative attacks). I'm OK with some eventual threshold followed by slowed advancement for everyone, but a wizard 20 / fighter 20 should be at least as good a fighter as a fighter 20 even if all those levels were taken post-20.Gotta disagree on this one. I think it should matter what a character's "core" competency is. Otherwise at a certain point every character ends up feeling kind of the same.
There's nothing wrong with someone who goes 20 fighter and then 20 wizard being different than someone who does the opposite, and I think it makes for greater variety.
I don't think you understand just how borked up the 3.x epic rules really were.
Consider the same characters from bittergeek's example, only with 10 levels of each class instead of 20. Those two would be roughly equivalent in terms of both spellcasting and fighting ability - same caster level, same base attack, same save bonuses. Sure, one might be a bit better at magic due to feats / stats / traits / equipment, and one might be a bit better at fighting - but they're at least in the same ballpark, and - again, depending on those feats and etc - neither one of them has a clear advantage in either facet of their capabilities.
Compare to the 3.x epic versions now.
Fighter 20 / Wizard 20: base attack +20, four iterative attacks, 20th level spellcasting.
Wizard 20 / Fighter 20: base attack +10, two iterative attacks, 20th level spellcasting.
The second option is flat-out mechanically inferior. And, worse, there is literally no way for it to ever improve. If your first 20 levels were wizard, under 3.x epic rules, you could add 60 levels of martial classes after that, and you would never be as good at combat as someone who started with 20 levels of fighter - even if that "fighter" devoted his next sixty levels to wizardry. By contrast, starting with 20 levels of fighter doesn't close off spellcasting options at all; the fighter 20 / wizard 20 might be behind by a few feats, but he's got the same 9th level spell slots as someone who started off with wizard.
This is the problem bittergeek was saying shouldn't happen.
So, should it matter what a character's core competency is? Sure. But that shouldn't be defined by the order in which they chose to take whatever levels they currently have - that's not the way it works below epic levels, and that should not be the way it works when you're level 20+, either.
I don't think you understand just how borked up the 3.x epic rules really were.
I've been running a 3.5e epic game since 2006; I think I know what's in there :)
I understand exactly how it works. Yes, order matters.
So what? Order matters for lots of things in life. Nobody's going to argue that the order you put your garments on is irrelevant - why does level order have to be irrelevant.
I can understand the desire for simplicity, and if Paizo decides to do exactly that, I'll politely point out that I think it diminishes somewhat the choice of fighter at low levels, but I'm not going to throw a hissy fit or anything.
I just think that such things add to the richness of the rules. Play above 20th-level is complicated. Nothing's going to change that, so I'm not worried about it being complicated.
Make it too simple and you'll have a different game.
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I would highly commend the Immortals boxed set from Basic D+D as a template for level 20+ adventures in Pathfinder. I also strongly suggest a flat HP progression for additional levels, such as +1 for Wizards, +2 for Sorcerers, Bards, Rogues, +3 for Clerics, Druids, Monks, +4 for Rangers, Fighters, and Paladins, and +5 for Barbarians (+ Con Mod, of course). Capping BAB also makes a lot of sense to me for playability, allowing advancement in combat ability to flow from an inherent attribute bonus of +1 for each 3 epic levels seems a much more customizable and manageable way to control BAB enhancement. The endless addition of HD, attacks, STs, etc. is what made Epic Level play an exercise is head-scratching computation.
"Lets see, my BAB is +20, my STR adds in another +14, my Epic Bonus is +10, my weapon adds +9, Smiting makes that another +12, spells applied gives me another +13, so my total before I roll is +78. I rolled a 2, so I have a result of 80. Now I need to do that five more times knocking off 5 for each roll."
Nope, not fun at the table.
I love the 'Cinematic Combat' mini-rules in Legacy of Fire for most epic combat situations, and have run all my 20+ campaigns (4 now over the years since I started in AD&D in 1988) using the High Level Adventures guidance from TSR. It has to be about affecting the world, not a battlefield. You are Gandalf or Saruman or Sauron, not Gimli or Legolas.
With regards to magic, yes there has to be a cap on magical advancement. The spell seed idea was a good guide for designing new spells but limiting the scope of a spell to the 9th level is an absolute imperative if you want to avoid world-breaking mortal spellcasters. Even the gods are assumed to be more limited in their scope than the spells a 40th level wizard could assemble using spell seeds. In epic level games, the rules have to be really clear that the power of a single spell cannot exceed that of a Wish spell. To accomplish more, artifacts must be forged and the Gods must be involved. That's where I have leaned most strongly on the Immortals set from Basic D&D. The guidance there has kept my games manageable.
Finally, with regards to feel, I hope that Paizo will use their cosmos for the setting of their 20+ games. Spelljammer and Planescape are the most fertile resources for the kinds of adventures that a character of this level should enjoy. The concerns of nations and dragons are piddling things to wonderworkers beyond level 20 and they should transcend to that level rather than continuing to play in the sandbox of Golarion and thereby wrecking havoc upon the world. Perhaps that is part of what makes the Test of the Starstone: the realization that with divine (or epic) power, the use of such power is inevitably apocalyptic for the mortal world. Thus only those who are prepared to tightly bind their power (Iomedae, Norgorber, Caydean Cailean) to the limits prescribed are able to continue interacting with the mortal world. For all others, there is the Void and the Planes.
Just my 2 electrum pieces. :)
Transmutation immunity doesn't negate the damage from disintegrate, it just makes your body not turn to ash at 0 HP. Compare the transmutation immunity armor property in complete arcane.
Transmutation immunity doesn't negate the damage from disintegrate, it just makes your body not turn to ash at 0 HP. Compare the transmutation immunity armor property in complete arcane.
Not the same thing; I looked it up afterwards since I thought it was a bit much:
Evershifting Form: ... She gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes immune to any transmutation effect unless she is willing to accept it.
Proof against Transmutation A character wearing this armor is impervious to any transmutation effect that would
alter his form, including polymorph and petrification effects, as well as disintegration (disintegrate can still reduce the wearer to –10 hit points, but doesn’t turn his remains to dust).
Master of Many Forms is just overly general - it specifically states "all transmutation effects," while the armor qualifies it as "effects that would alter [her] form". I could house rule them to be the same, but in the RAW the two effects are not the same.
I don't think you understand just how borked up the 3.x epic rules really were.I've been running a 3.5e epic game since 2006; I think I know what's in there :)
I understand exactly how it works. Yes, order matters.
So what? Order matters for lots of things in life. Nobody's going to argue that the order you put your garments on is irrelevant - why does level order have to be irrelevant.
My apologies then; I assumed you were misinformed because it simply doesn't make sense to me to assert that the first 20 levels of your character should have a stronger influence on what you can do than any further levels can ever have, and all of the arguments you've posted to that end have completely ignored the severe mechanical differences between post-20 multiclassing vs. pre-20 multiclassing.
Your position makes as much sense to me as someone saying "Oh, well, because your first level was fighter, you're great at physical combat! Nevermind that your next 19 levels are wizard - those don't matter; clearly the first level is more important, and obviously you should be able to out-fight the guy whose first level was wizard but has another 19 levels of fighter."
As I've tried to say, I'm not trying to claim that order should be irrelevant, merely that there should not be a clear and obvious "right order" vs. "wrong order".
It seems unlikely that we're going to agree on this topic, though, so - having hopefully made my point to any hapless readers - I'll drop the discussion.
According to my calculations, a CR 30 monster would have about 700 hp, extrapolating from the bestiary.
Or 1,340 hp, I might have missed an exponent.
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What the heck is an intensified time stop? A time stop that does an extra 10d6 damage? :)
3.0 Intensify Spell was an epic metamagic feat that double maximized a spell's random components => intensified fireball does 120 damage. intensified time stop would give you 9 or 10 actions depending on how your GM interpreted "random component" (we took the random part to be 2-5, but I don't want to start that argument here). It was a +7 level metamagic.
I think the most important thing about Epic level content is to provide a LOT of Epic level challenges. I would actually like to see an Epic level Bestiary/Game Mastery Guide come out BEFORE an Epic Level Players guide.
Think up new monster abilities, new enemy powers, new setting difficulties, new traps, new poisons, etc.
That way people who are considering DMing an Epic level game have a lot of time to design their campaign world and also can start tailoring their game at around level 15+ to hint at the more dangerous realms of existence, something to keep the players motivated through the story as it evolves naturally.
I think that was one of the big failings of 3.5 when they released their Epic level handbook. They just sort of took for granted that DMs would be able to implement their material as fast as the players would advance their characters and that's not necessarily true.
But basically I would like enough material to be presented that a DM can think of starting an Epic level game in the same vein as they would starting a regular game, one where level 20 is basically the same as level 1.
I want my epic level character to be able to take on and defeat demon lords.
I also want to know the consequences if they do so. I mean, if the heroes are known for demon lord killing, they would be constant targets for others exacting revenge or other demon lords wanting to prevent a similar fate. In other words, the heroes need means to keep a low profile. An interesting conundrum - all the power that you're afraid to use. :)
3.0 Intensify Spell was an epic metamagic feat that double maximized a spell's random components => intensified fireball does 120 damage. intensified time stop would give you 9 or 10 actions depending on how your GM interpreted "random component" (we took the random part to be 2-5, but I don't want to start that argument here). It was a +7 level metamagic.What the heck is an intensified time stop? A time stop that does an extra 10d6 damage? :)
Ah! I was going from memory and confused Enhance Spell with Intensify Spell. Makes perfect sense. Never considered using it for time stop ... what a marvelous idea.
I think the most important thing about Epic level content is to provide a LOT of Epic level challenges. I would actually like to see an Epic level Bestiary/Game Mastery Guide come out BEFORE an Epic Level Players guide.
Think up new monster abilities, new enemy powers, new setting difficulties, new traps, new poisons, etc.
I agree, but think about the challenges differently - a lot of creating high-level challenges is having a toolkit for doing so rather than pulling a CR30 challenge out of the box and using it.
I think it's cool that in a lot of Paizo's adventure paths they do things that aren't in the rules. I'm not going to name any because they're all spoilers, but they're cool, and that's the sort of thing I'd like to have rules for doing.
Think of it as being like the rules for haunts, which I love.
That way people who are considering DMing an Epic level game have a lot of time to design their campaign world and also can start tailoring their game at around level 15+ to hint at the more dangerous realms of existence, something to keep the players motivated through the story as it evolves naturally.
This is an excellent point - if your game world is designed from day one to support things through, say, CR40, you'll have problems building it when the rules only support up to CR25 without creaking dangerously.
It also touches on what I think is an important point - I still think above-20 adventuring is most successful (long term - I'm not talking one-offs here) when the characters reach the high levels organically.
I think that was one of the big failings of 3.5 when they released their Epic level handbook. They just sort of took for granted that DMs would be able to implement their material as fast as the players would advance their characters and that's not necessarily true.
It is tough keeping up, I'll grant you that. But having more "fait accomplit" material wouldn't necessarily help me any; it's may be more work fitting something in that's "close but not quite right" into my campaign than making it from scratch.
Which reminds me, I've got a daemon to work on.
But basically I would like enough material to be presented that a DM can think of starting an Epic level game in the same vein as they would starting a regular game, one where level 20 is basically the same as level 1.
A lot of people want this sort of thing, therefore it'll clearly be popular - but it's something I have no interest in.
Whenever someone sits down and makes, say, a 30th-level character, that character looks and feels totally different than any of the other characters at the table, all of whom grew into their role.
That's why I don't like starting much above 1st level - the characters don't come across as real to me.
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The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
I was gonna snark you for not posting "play feedback" but...
That's actually a really phenomenal idea.
The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
I like it.
The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
I was gonna snark you for not posting "play feedback" but...
That's actually a really phenomenal idea.
Play feedback* - it's exactly the same as the 20 levels prior but with even more ridiculous abilities and you fight higher level enemies.
*Note: Wholly derived from playing NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer
The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
i actually like it
The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
This sounds very good. But what about multiclassers?
This sounds very good. But what about multiclassers?The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
wouldn't they just continue to add classes together until they reached level 20 in something? the "epic classes" would have pre-requisites like prestige classes I assume.
This sounds very good. But what about multiclassers?The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
ECL 20.
ECL 20.This sounds very good. But what about multiclassers?The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
The whole thing is Paizo now allows you to multi-class past 20th level. If you take 20 levels of Wizard and then go down the Fighter route for 10 levels, you get all the bonuses from what you would receive from the Fighter up to 10th level. Of course, minus the iterative attacks and different bonuses to hit, save. But you would still get the armor and weapon training up to a 10th level fighter, as well as the bonus feats.
But I suppose Paizo could recant that ruling if they decided to use your idea with being a new class past 20th level. To be honest, I kind of like the idea myself.
The problem I see with Epic Prestige classes is the same with trying to slap on more poweres to an existing Base 20 classes in a continued progression. At some point you again hit a cap. You also diminish a reason to multiclass into another Base class, or non-epic prestige class. It also means that in order to support Mythic/Epic going forward more Epic class will be needed to cover different kinds of character styles that get added to the game.
In the two Epic games I played in and the one I ran, the main thing was mostly using existing powerers and enjoying them to the fullest (when not getting hounded by even higher level BBEG tht were bulit into the homebrew world). Only once did epic spells come up, as a "design" broke mega-summon exercise. In the game I ran the Wizard used Epic Feats to buy higher level slots which he filled with nasty metamagic spells. This worked perfectly fine.
Personally getting options to improve lower level abilities so (see some early level Blood Line or Domain powers as clear examples) they are usable options in Post 20 would be a good option. From what I saw one of the few aspect of 3.0/3.5 Epic play that functioned fairly well were Epic Feats. Players looked forward to them while toying with capstone powers and hunting for artifact level items to add to their collection.
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I would also remind than feedback should also cover the GM side of the thing. While it's nice to talk about fancy player things like Epic Class, please do not forget that there is a GM who has to deal with them, and advance monsters, and challenges, and NPCs, and Monsters with Classes, and more.
What I found both playing and running was that a key to epic combats was letting the Players choose how much of a bite they want to take. If it's too much let them back off but with story repructions to match. Much like many of AP point award/outcome effect rules. Adding guides to building those for post 20 would good rules.
ECL 20.This sounds very good. But what about multiclassers?The problem with epic levels is going to be the same problem with levels above 10 but multiplied - how to keep adding features to the characters that are unique and more powerful but not game ending. Of course, by level 20, we have already failed that with casters and class capstones. The question now is what can you possibly give classes now that they have reached the pinnacle of their class and can autoconfirm crits on 15-20 or have basically become a dragon?
I'd say the thing to do is all classes that EXIST cap where they cap. NEW classes that represent Epic roles that can only be acquired once you reach ECL 20 should be created (plus whatever other pre-reqs). Dragon Slayer. Demon Hunter. Godly Troubadour. Basically Epic Prestige Classes specifically for Epic.
The whole thing is Paizo now allows you to multi-class past 20th level. If you take 20 levels of Wizard and then go down the Fighter route for 10 levels, you get all the bonuses from what you would receive from the Fighter up to 10th level. Of course, minus the iterative attacks and different bonuses to hit, save. But you would still get the armor and weapon training up to a 10th level fighter, as well as the bonus feats.
But I suppose Paizo could recant that ruling if they decided to use your idea with being a new class past 20th level. To be honest, I kind of like the idea myself.
I don't think I know what my idea was any more.