The Calikang (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide) Would like to object to you saying that TWF is only used by 2 armed creatures. It has a higher entry point, but more options, where as Multi-weapon fighting has no additional feats that build off it.
So it is legal for a Eidolon to have either the TWF or MWF Feat.
Do you really think this discussion is the place to change something in the Core Rulebook that was part of the open playtest three years ago?
Of course not, but I'm not the one who brought up the feat in the first place. I'll be dropping this part of my statement now.
At this point I think the idea I had for a Synthesist needing to make Concentration checks while in a Eidolon(regardless of form) sounds pretty good.
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In my haste, I muddled two things together. Let me start over.
A synthesist has an armless eidolon. You're proposing a rule that says when he's fused with his armless eidolon, he should still be able to cast spells with somatic components, even though his fused form doesn't have arms.
Question: If that synthesist, when fused, was grappled or pinned, should he be able to cast somatic spells? He's already got a rule that's letting him cast somatic spells without arms, and it's not like the grappler is interfering with the non-gestures he's making.
Question: If that synthesist is able to cast somatic spells when fused with his armless eidolon, even when grappling or pinned, should he be able to do so when he's not fused with his armless eidolon? In other words, if he's not moving his arms to cast spells when fused, why should he have to move his arms to cast when not fused?
Because he's like a Dark Naga, which knows spells with somatic components yet has no arms?So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
1. Yes, if he makes the necessary Concentration check for being grappled / pinned. Since they are merged, there isn't a separate grappled / pinned condition for the eidolon and the summoner since they are considered one.
2. No. Consider it like this. If he's casting in his eidolon, his eidolon can't attack. This means for all intents and purposes, the eidolon is standing completely still while the summoner is moving inside the glowing magical skin. If his eidolon is attacking, he cant' cast spells and the summoner looks like he's in suspended animation.
I understand what you're trying to get at, but I think the imagination of this archetype is off. Like I've said before, I've always seen this as like Naruto in his 9-tails cloak. It is a translucent cloak, as described in the archetype description.
/I'm still pissed off this archetype has changed so much that I no longer want to play one in PFS.
//Thank gods below most of the credits were GM credit.
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Sean,
If a gnome synthesist in a quadruped eidolon can reach into his pack, pull out a wand, and fire it, he should be able to make whatever somatic gestures are necessary to cast spells. Especially if the eidolon is Medium or Large.
I suppose I'm not seeing the eidolon as a hard shell, like Armor of the X-Men, but rather as an overlaying spirit that does much of the heavy lifting. I've never envisioned that the outline of the eidolon is a hard wall; that summoner can't reach outside.
This. This points out the logical contradictions in the existing rules quite well.
I think a lot of people, at least from reading this thread, imagine the synthesist to be a lot like the characters wearing totem armour in Magic: The Gathering.
Examples:
Eel Umbra
Bear Umbra
Drake Umbra
Maybe we shouldn't be thinking like this. There are no Paizo images of what a Synthesist is supposed to be like. If there were, perhaps that would help lock down what it's supposed to be and end some confusion. Then rules clarifications can be directed toward that definite concept, as opposed to how it is currently, where so many synthesist players have radically different ideas of what the class means.
I think a lot of people, at least from reading this thread, imagine the synthesist to be a lot like the characters wearing totem armour in Magic: The Gathering.
Examples:
Eel Umbra
Bear Umbra
Drake UmbraMaybe we shouldn't be thinking like this. There are no Paizo images of what a Synthesist is supposed to be like. If there were, perhaps that would help lock down what it's supposed to be and end some confusion. Then rules clarifications can be directed toward that definite concept, as opposed to how it is currently, where so many synthesist players have radically different ideas of what the class means.
Or the rest of the Umbras. :)
The guy in the crab umbra is casting a spell! :O
The guy in the crab umbra is casting a spell! :O
Same with the Boar Snake and Spider. None of which have hands. Which means even WotC gets it. <ducks>
All ribbing aside, I'm actually looking forward to trying a synthesist in one of our home games, but I prefer the non-translucent image idea, so I'll just describe it differently. It will make my juvenile tarrasque look a lot more intimidating. (Fluff wise)
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If he can cast somatic spells when he doesn't have arms at all, why would he need to make a concentration check when grappled or pinned? It's not like the attacker is holding his nonexistent arms to prevent him from casting.
Yes. He just needs to make a Concentration check, as per the Grappled condition.A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
Because being grappled might be slightly distracting?
Does the synthesis qualify for the Dimensional Agility feat tree?
Wow, that was a lot to wade through. However, I have a few questions that I didn't quite see the answer for.
1. Can the merged synthesist use rejuvinate eidolon to heal his real hp, or is it restricted to only healing the temp hp?
2. Does the claws evolution prevent the limb from wielding a manufactured weapon?
1) I believe that rejuvenate eidolon only heal temp hp.
2) The claws evolution doesn't prevent you from wielding manufactured weapons (though, obviously, you couldn't make a claw attack with a hand that is holding a weapon)
Hi
Actually I wasn't using feats from the Bestiary, just checking if TWF can be used with multiple pairs of arms.
I believe I can use Multiattack - it's a class ability at 9th lvl.
Multiattack is not the same thing as Multiweapon Fighting.
And no, you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting with multiple pairs of arms; it allows a single off-hand attack, period.
Calikang:
DEFENSE: AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 25 (+2 Dex, +12 natural, +4 shield, –1 size)Melee +1 longsword +18/+13/+8 (2d6+8/17–20), +1 longsword +18 (2d6+8/17–20), 4 slams +16 (1d6+3)
Defensive Slam (Ex):A calikang gains a cumulative +1 shield bonus to its AC for each of its arms that does not wield a manufactured weapon, to a maximum of +4 for four hands. A calikang can make slam attacks with these arms without losing this AC bonus.
Fozbek,
You and I are reading the Calikang's stats differently then. I read it as "Normally attacks with 2 Manufactured weapons, to get the best out of the Defensive Slam, but could use up to 6 Manufactured Weapons (& Thus the wording of the Defensive Slam)".
I believe that you are readign it as "Can only attack with 2 Manufactured weapons". If that is so, why the extra wording in the "Defensive Slam" about changing AC and wielded Manufactured weapons?
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Because being grappled might be slightly distracting?If he can cast somatic spells when he doesn't have arms at all, why would he need to make a concentration check when grappled or pinned? It's not like the attacker is holding his nonexistent arms to prevent him from casting.
Yes. He just needs to make a Concentration check, as per the Grappled condition.A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
Either a ruling needs to be made about ALL creatures without arms casting spells - such as the normal Summoner fused with the Eidolon and the Wild Shaped Druid with Natural Spell - or they need just say flat out that every type of Summoner has a unique set of rules that are completely unrelated to the rules of the game and spell those out specifically.
The Calikang could WIELD additional weapons in his four free hands, but he would get no additional attacks for them as long as he doesn't have the Multiweapon Fighting feat.
He could, however, distribute his four attacks (three of BAB + one off hand from twf) to up to four different weapons... Say if he wields different weapons in the other hands to dish out different types of damage.
But really, I think that in fact the Calikang SHOULD have Multiweapon Fighting instead of TWF as that specially replaces TWF for creatures with three or more arms (thus counts as it for the improved feats) and even has a lower dex requirement.
He could also use the Multiattack feat, as that would reduce his penalties for his slam attacks from -5 to -2.
Btw, if you look at his ABs, shouldn't they all be one point higher?
+15 BAB +7 Strength -4 TWFing non-light weapons +1 magic = +19 for his swords and +15 BAB +7 Strength -5 mixing natural weapons with other attacks = +17 for his slams respectively.
Where's the -1 to everything from?
Now, can we please take any further TWF/MWF debate elsewhere and come back to the synth questions that are awaiting Sean's answers? ^^
Yeah, Calikang could wield Reach and non-reach weapons simultaneously, for example...
Or wielding a shield, which is also a weapon...
And Calikang can take 1 level of Fighter and then take Multi-Weapon Fighting...
It´s CR threat and everything is just based on it NOT fighting like that in it´s standard guise.
Well what the hell are we even talking about now.
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eidolons / creatures and multi-weapon fighting with 3+ arms, vs. twf with 3+ arms.
Cyber-
Calikang could wield and deal extra attacks without the multiweapon-fighting feat, the "normal" penalties are listed in the feat: -6 for the main hand, -10 for the "off hands", or -4 for the main, -8 for each of the off hands if the off hand weapon is light.
Calikang benefits from two weapon fighting with his main hand, and one of his off hands, then uses natural slam attacks with his four free hands.
PaulH - you could do that, TWF with your eidolon in pfs with 6 arms. wielding 6 waki's at 7th level synth you get +2/-3 main, -2/-7 off hands with ITWF. or +4/-1 main +4/-1 off, and then 4 slam attacks / natural attacks.
The interesting correlation is the text that states Mulitweapon Fighting replaces TWF for creatures with 3 or more limbs, and whether that qualifies an eidolon to take it in PFS, because the feat is considered substituted. but thats a question to raise on the pathfinder society forum.
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Does the synthesis qualify for the Dimensional Agility feat tree?
Yes. he gets an ability at 6th level that replaces some other abilities. the granted ability allows him to "cast dimension door" as a spell-like ability 1/day. which meets the requisite for the dimensional agility tree. he can also take dimension door as a 3rd level spell known at 7th level and cast dimension door that way.
Creative Director
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Btw, if you look at his ABs, shouldn't they all be one point higher?
+15 BAB +7 Strength -4 TWFing non-light weapons +1 magic = +19 for his swords and +15 BAB +7 Strength -5 mixing natural weapons with other attacks = +17 for his slams respectively.
Where's the -1 to everything from?
Size penalty for being a Large creature.
Further digression: The calikang doesn't prefer to fight with more than two weapons at a time, and therefore uses the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. It COULD fight with more weapons, but then it loses its defensive slam ability.
Frankly, the calikang is already doing a HECK of a lot of damage for a CR 12 creature, and giving it more weapons would be unfair.
Not all monsters are built to be completely super-optimized, in other words. In fact, very few monsters are built this way.
I now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion.
Can the synthesist summoner wear armor with his fused eidolon and still get the bonuses?
Cyber-
Calikang could wield and deal extra attacks without the multiweapon-fighting feat, the "normal" penalties are listed in the feat: -6 for the main hand, -10 for the "off hands", or -4 for the main, -8 for each of the off hands if the off hand weapon is light.
You're correct.
He would substitute his slam attacks for hugely penalized weapon attacks.
Size penalty for being a Large creature.
Of course... How could I overlook that.
I now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion.
Thank you very much.
@All: See what all your topic digression has lead to? Me overlooking size penalties... For christ's sake, let's please return to the still unanswered questions from before that digression. ^^
Bracers of armor are not armor. They don't take up the "armor" body slot.
Bracers of armor are not armor. They don't take up the "armor" body slot.
*pounds head on desk*
I hate the Summoner, and Synthesist especially, more with every post.
Moreover, an Eidolon gives you an armor bonus. A literal armor bonus. It is armor. The Bracers of Armor are irrelevant - I doubt they will ever be able to exceed the Eidolon's armor bonus to you at any point you can afford them to.
Since we are still not back to the topic we had before the digression to magic card pictures and creatures using TWF/MWF, and I feel that we could get a large step further with this thread if we could answer some of those questions we were at, I'm going to repost what I wrote back then. (Feel free to send me money as a sign that you don't like that. :P)
---repost---
It's even MORE stupid that a normal summoner can cast spells while using "Merged Forms" with no requirements of hands on the eidolon, while a synthesist who has a thousand times more experience with living and moving inside his eidolon can't.You're comparing the standard summoner's merge forms ability, gained at 16th level and only usable for 1 round/level, to the synthesist's fused eidolon ability, gained at 1st level and active all the time. Maybe they shouldn't work the exactly same or have the same power level?Maybe you could try even a modicum of rules coherence?
How can anyone by expected to play a game where the rules for thing A are so completely and utterly different when approached from perspectives X, Y, and Z that they might as well not even be related.
This. A thousand times this.
To come back to the original question, my reasoning still stands. Additionally, he gives up other things to cope for that ability. But if you still think that it would be imbalanced, please, introduce a Natural Spell variant feat for synthesists, as has been proposed in this very thread a dozen times.
[Insert I didn't write back then, but feel like I should add it]
Another possibility, if you think it would be imbalanced to allow a fused-with-handless-eidolon synth to cast somatic spells right away, maybe he should automatically get that ability on his way to level 16, as that's when a normal summoner can do it...? I'd still argue that it should be several levels earlier because of him spending almost all his day time in merged form.[/insert]
In my haste, I muddled two things together. Let me start over.
A synthesist has an armless eidolon. You're proposing a rule that says when he's fused with his armless eidolon, he should still be able to cast spells with somatic components, even though his fused form doesn't have arms.
Yes. Either for free, or by creating a natural spell feat variant (and possibly giving a synthesist that feat as a bonus, to balance some other aspects).
Question: If that synthesist, when fused, was grappled or pinned, should he be able to cast somatic spells? He's already got a rule that's letting him cast somatic spells without arms, and it's not like the grappler is interfering with the non-gestures he's making.
I also think that yes, he should be able to cast, albeit with a nice concentration check.
But, since you are the one how should be able to tell us how the rules work, let me ask you a counter-question: what's the current ruling on a druid (with natural spell feat) wild shaped into a snake form that get's grappled? It's not like the grappler would (or could) interfere with any hands, right? So what's your ruling for that? The one for the synthesist should follow that, I suppose.Question: If that synthesist is able to cast somatic spells when fused with his armless eidolon, even when grappling or pinned, should he be able to do so when he's not fused with his armless eidolon? In other words, if he's not moving his arms to cast spells when fused, why should he have to move his arms to cast when not fused?
No, of course not.
A druid with the natural spell feat can't cast all his spells as if still and silent for free, either.The way I see it is that he does in fact move his own arms inside of the eidolon "suit" (as I already said, he has to be able to do so somehow, as he is able to use all his equipment while fused, and to reach into his pockets to take out the spell components.) - and that doesn't change anything about his actions when he's not fused. In fact, following your logic, one could come to the conclusion that a synthesist would have to be able to use all his equipment and to take out spell components without moving his arms.
Because he's like a Dark Naga, which knows spells with somatic components yet has no arms?So you want to give the armless-eidolon synthesist something for free that the wildshaping druid has to pay for?
Yes.
A wildshaping druid can still use summon nature's ally and almost all his other class abilities, while a synthesist doesn't. Besides, as has already been said, if you feel that would be imbalanced, at least give us a feat along the lines of natural spell.Additionally, it just doesn't make sense to say that a naga can cast spells with somatic components without problems, and a druid can learn to cast in wild shape without problems by cost of a single feat, while there's no possibility for a synthesist to be able to do so (apart from metamagic, which brings it's own problems).
---end of repost---
Bracers of armor are not armor. They don't take up the "armor" body slot.*pounds head on desk*
I hate the Summoner, and Synthesist especially, more with every post.
Moreover, an Eidolon gives you an armor bonus. A literal armor bonus. It is armor. The Bracers of Armor are irrelevant - I doubt they will ever be able to exceed the Eidolon's armor bonus to you at any point you can afford them to.
Unless you make it a natural armor bonus...
After all, I believe you have the option of choosing which type of bonus some or all of it is.
Bracers of armor are not armor. They don't take up the "armor" body slot.*pounds head on desk*
I hate the Summoner, and Synthesist especially, more with every post.
Moreover, an Eidolon gives you an armor bonus. A literal armor bonus. It is armor. The Bracers of Armor are irrelevant - I doubt they will ever be able to exceed the Eidolon's armor bonus to you at any point you can afford them to.Unless you make it a natural armor bonus...
After all, I believe you have the option of choosing which type of bonus some or all of it is.
Still. Ridiculous.
That is two one word sentences, not one sentence split into two.
No eidolon will ever actually have an innate armor bonus because there's no upside to it. And, anyway, at least the ruling is consistent between the summoner and the synthesist, here. No reason to b~@!& on "especially the synthesist" from this.Bracers of armor are not armor. They don't take up the "armor" body slot.*pounds head on desk*
I hate the Summoner, and Synthesist especially, more with every post.
Moreover, an Eidolon gives you an armor bonus. A literal armor bonus. It is armor. The Bracers of Armor are irrelevant - I doubt they will ever be able to exceed the Eidolon's armor bonus to you at any point you can afford them to.
Agreed.
Does the synthesis qualify for the Dimensional Agility feat tree?Yes. he gets an ability at 6th level that replaces some other abilities. the granted ability allows him to "cast dimension door" as a spell-like ability 1/day. which meets the requisite for the dimensional agility tree. he can also take dimension door as a 3rd level spell known at 7th level and cast dimension door that way.
Thanks
To come back to the original question, my reasoning still stands. Additionally, he gives up other things to cope for that ability. But if you still think that it would be imbalanced, please, introduce a Natural Spell variant feat for synthesists, as has been proposed in this very thread a dozen times.
I haven't been averse to that idea.
But, since you are the one how should be able to tell us how the rules work, let me ask you a counter-question: what's the current ruling on a druid (with natural spell feat) wild shaped into a snake form that get's grappled? It's not like the grappler would (or could) interfere with any hands, right? So what's your ruling for that? The one for the synthesist should follow that, I suppose.
Natural Spell says, "You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell." Which means the wildshaped druid is still making somatic gestures, they're just not with hands. The grapple rules say you can't cast somatic spells when pinned, so that would apply to the wildshaped druid using Natural Spell. If we go the Natural Spell route for the synthesist, it should work the same way: the somatic component is "translated" to something appropriate for the fused form, and thus a pinned synthesist couldn't cast somatic spells.
Sean, did you have an opinion on what is the intent with the conflict/non-transparency between the no-somatic rule for Grappled and Pinned in the Magic Chapter, and only Pinned (NOT Grappled) mentioning that in the Glossary? It seems like a case of not-consistent editing between the sections in either case, but I´m just not sure what the actual intent is... As I wrote before, I think per RAW the Magic Chapter restriction still applies when Grappled....???
Sean, did you have an opinion on what is the intent with the conflict/non-transparency between the no-somatic rule for Grappled and Pinned in the Magic Chapter, and only Pinned (NOT Grappled) mentioning that in the Glossary? It seems like a case of not-consistent editing between the sections in either case, but I´m just not sure what the actual intent is... As I wrote before, I think per RAW the Magic Chapter restriction still applies when Grappled....???
The no-somatic-casting restriction only applies to being pinned, not merely grappled, so the Magic chapter's entry (pg. 206, Grappled or Pinned) is wrong and should be revised to reflect the different effects for the two conditions.
Awesome, thanks... That´s how I´ve always played it, but I wasn´t sure what the official intent was...
(especially since the Concentration check still applies vs. Stilled Spells w/ Eschew Materials and SLAs)
To come back to the original question, my reasoning still stands. Additionally, he gives up other things to cope for that ability. But if you still think that it would be imbalanced, please, introduce a Natural Spell variant feat for synthesists, as has been proposed in this very thread a dozen times.I haven't been averse to that idea.
But, since you are the one how should be able to tell us how the rules work, let me ask you a counter-question: what's the current ruling on a druid (with natural spell feat) wild shaped into a snake form that get's grappled? It's not like the grappler would (or could) interfere with any hands, right? So what's your ruling for that? The one for the synthesist should follow that, I suppose.Natural Spell says, "You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell." Which means the wildshaped druid is still making somatic gestures, they're just not with hands. The grapple rules say you can't cast somatic spells when pinned, so that would apply to the wildshaped druid using Natural Spell. If we go the Natural Spell route for the synthesist, it should work the same way: the somatic component is "translated" to something appropriate for the fused form, and thus a pinned synthesist couldn't cast somatic spells.
Now isn't that a basis we can work on? Thank you!
I think most of us could live with that solution. That is, you posting that feat somewhere official. ;)...
Of course, we could still argue wether the synthesist should get it for free at 1st lvl, at a later point, should just be able to pick it as one of his normal feat, or if we make it a scaling ability like with limited uses/day that gets unlimited at a certain higher level...
I'd vote to give it a synth for free at 1st lvl (and make it available to other summoners as a regular feat choice) to avoid possible "why can a synth move his hands around in his eidolon w/o a feat but still needs one to cast" or "why can't I learn that as a normal summoner" discussions, because I think we had about enough discussions about this archetype already, but... YMMV. ;)
Now isn't that a basis we can work on? Thank you!
I think most of us could live with that solution. That is, you posting that feat somewhere official. ;)
Yeah. Personally I think that's the best solution. Would please most people complaining here, while not necessarily displeasing the ones that are fine with the Synthesist as it is.
But he seems to have a few too many arms ... 10 should be the absolute most at that level (picking nothing but limb evolutions with 1 point left over) or 12 if he is a half-elf with that extra evo favored class bonus)