Galibraithe, you really need to calm down. You accuse another poster earlier on in throwing a tantrum (and continued to rub it in ensuing posts), but with your all caps words, sometimes with bolded letters, you are giving a tantrum of yourself.
Just calm down. There is no reason to get this upset about the subject matter.
But besides that, I really do not want to address any points except one. You make the argument over and over that you do not want mythic level material as it will lessen what material is worthwhile to you.
Well, my answer to that is tough. You are not the only subscriber/consumer of Paizo's Pathfinder products. This goes back to what I was saying earlier on being selfish.
Paizo has already come out with numerous books and supplements within the last 2 years since Pathfinder has been released. There is a 'lot' to choose from.
But on the flipside, due to there 'is' a lot of material to choose from, there are going to be supplements that people do not like and are not going to want to use. It's the nature of the beast the more there is to choose from. The odds are you are eventually going to run into material you just don't like or want.
There have been books I have not bought because it really doesn't interest me, and there are books I have bought that only a percentage of it is useful or interesting to me. That's just how it is.
What ticks me off is those not wanting any material for mythic levels is you have material for levels 1-20. You have a lot of it. And you assuredly are going to get a lot more to come. But you can't give up a small percentage of books/supplements for future mythic level content. (And yes, it will be small comparatively. As where there is a lot who would like mythic level content, it is in the minority compared to 1-20.) But yet, that's still not enough, you need to have 'all' the books Paizo publish fall within the 1-20 range.
If it worked out where all of the books I bought are 100% applicable to what I would like, that would be great. But for me to request(demand)and expect that from Paizo IS selfish.
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I want one, but I'm patient; group's 13th level now, so I got a couple years;....
heh heh....I dm a pbp that might actually make it to 20th level....
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Which means that if paizo adds something like psionics or high level play to the game, I expect that to be supported in later products. And while you're right that I can ignore that material if it doesn't appeal to me, I still end up paying for it.
If they do, it will not be everywhere, which is something that i think you fear. They may do a psionic themed AP, make psions of Golarion and may add a random psionic character or monster here and there in APs and Modules. And most of those will already be statted up, so there will be no problem to use them.
Which comes back to E6...why would you buy the entire core rulebook, when you are going to use only 40% of the book? (Feats add 10%), if you only play E6?
So bestiary 4 comes out after publishing a post 20+ book and psionics. Suddenly, from some 300 or so monsters, seventy are epic and thirty or so are psionic. You still get those other 200 monsters, and maybe you can use the rest somehow. And you will be whining that from some 1200 monsters (TWO THOUSAND AND TWO HUNDRED) you can't use 100-150? Give me a break.
So, my opinion is that the people who don't want post 20+ and psionics are overreacting and acting like those two books would ruin the universe.
niche - a small part of the rules only attractive to a subset of people that expand the rules without changing them.
alternate rules - incompatible changes to the rules system.
Cool. Now, it's incompatible with the existing rules for solars not to approach demigods in power, and ridiculous for non-divine beings to exceed the power of deities. Accordingly, assuming the level-CR relationship holds, the maximum level mythic play can support for non-deities is about 25th level before it stops being niche rules and becomes alternate rules.
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Why? Who says that god's power is anywhere near lvl 25? Lol...a CR of the god is always at least +40 to the APL. At least...oh and gods are unkillable unless killed by other gods.
Solar CR 23
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Though they are not gods, the solars' power approaches that of demigods, and they often have an advisory role for younger or weaker deities. In some polytheistic faiths, mortals worship one or more solars as aspects or near-equal servants of the true deities—never without the deity's approval—or consider notable solars to be offspring, consorts, lovers, or spouses of true deities (which they may be, depending on the deity).
Creative Director
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I don't know. Just the thought of somebody killing a frieking deity, you know the almost omnipotent philosophical entity, is kinda ridiculous.
Even though there are many, many examples of deities being killed or dying in Golarion? (Or in real-world myths, for that matter?)
In any case, folks are right about the passion and anger in this thread. Please tone it down. Take a few hours or a few days to catch your breath if you're getting too worked up, and if someone posts something that you find offensive, just flag it and move on—don't perpetuate the situation by replying.
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Why? Who says that god's power is anywhere near lvl 25?
I might say exactly that for starters.
Nascent demon lords, for example, can grant spells to clerics. That technically makes them deities (in fact, it makes them demigods). They're also specifically called out by the rules in "Lords of Chaos" as being CR 21–CR 25 (with the majority of them being CR 25). We've statted up one of them so far—Treerazer. That means he can indeed be defeated and even killed by mortals.
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Galibraithe, you really need to calm down. You accuse another poster earlier on in throwing a tantrum (and continued to rub it in ensuing posts), but with your all caps words, sometimes with bolded letters, you are giving a tantrum of yourself.
First of all, I did not accuse chucky of throwing a tantrum. I pointed out that chucky himself was threatening to throw a tantrum until he got his way.
Second, you're right. I do need to calm down. But memorax is really pissing me off. I'm doing my best to try to understand his point, and he's making no attempt at all to understand mine. Going so far as to lecture me on the very point I was making, like I hadn't just made it. It's infuriating.
But besides that, I really do not want to address any points except one. You make the argument over and over that you do not want mythic level material as it will lessen what material is worthwhile to you.
Well, my answer to that is tough. You are not the only subscriber/consumer of Paizo's Pathfinder products. This goes back to what I was saying earlier on being selfish.
And I've responded repeatedly to that argument. Basically, you're not the only subscriber/consumer of Paizo's Pathfinder products yourself, so you calling me selfish is just being hypocritical. You want to get your way, I want to get my way, but only one of us is maligning the other person for wanting to get his way.
I'm not being any more selfish than you are, so stop calling me selfish. It's just insulting and belittling.
What ticks me off is those not wanting any material for mythic levels is you have material for levels 1-20. You have a lot of it. And you assuredly are going to get a lot more to come. But you can't give up a small percentage of books/supplements for future mythic level content. (And yes, it will be small comparatively. As where there is a lot who would like mythic level content, it is in the minority compared to 1-20.) But yet, that's still not enough, you need to have 'all' the books Paizo publish fall within the 1-20 range.
And what ticks me off is you calling me selfish for not wanting to give you what you want just because you want it. Me not wanting you to get your way at my expense does not make me selfish. In fact, quite the opposite. Why can't you just go with third party stuff? Why don't you ask Jon Brazer of Super Genius Games to release a high level supplement? Why does the rest of the paizo fanbase have to support your niche? Isn't that a bit selfish of you? To demand that we all lose out so that you gain?
Anyways, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Stop thinking about it as "mythic level content." Think of it as "niche market content." It doesn't matter what the specific niche being appealed to is, what matters is that it is a niche.
What percentage of ongoing books should be given over to material that doesn't support the core game, and only supports certain niches of the game? 5%? 10%? 20%? 50%?
How many niches should paizo support? Epic is one, Psionics is another. Furry is another. Should paizo include some furry content in every book? What about low fantasy fans like me? Should we get some support for our niche in every book?
What about Eastern gaming? Paizo has clearly decided to go ahead with supporting that niche (also useless to me), so when I buy Ultimate Combat I'm going to get two classes that are utterly useless to me (Samurai and Ninja), a host of weapons I don't need, and a whole gazetteer I don't need (I may just pass on that). Plus ongoing support, and probably further expansion - I suspect it won't be long before we start seeing things like Sohei, Wu Jen, Shujenja and other Eastern tropes appearing. Bestiary 3 already promises to be loaded with creatures I don't need because they don't fit into the Eurocentric style of play I favor.
Now, clearly Eastern gaming is a popular option that the majority of the fanbase is excited about, so it's going to get support. But with each niche that is added, the value of each new book diminishes for people not interested in that niche. If Eastern, Psionics and Mythic are all added to the game then people who want none of the above are all going to see the value of the books diminish by whatever percentage of the books is devoted to supporting those niches.
Since we know that paizo isn't going to adopt a strategy of maintaining multiple lines of products just to support niches (since Lisa has said as much, citing it as the primary cause of TSR's bankruptcy), then this becomes a real important issue. At what point is it no longer "selfish" for people to be concerned about the creeping growth of niche material in the core game?
I'm sure there are people on this forum who would love it if Pathfinder supported epic level psionic furry samurais, but I'm guessing its a very small percentage of players. So should paizo have ongoing support across its product lines for epic level psionic furry samurais? Or is that kind of play better served by third party publishers?
Also, nobody seems to want to address the real pressing concern with epic level play: There is no agreement on what epic level stuff should look like and what it should accomplish. Should it be a simplification of the existing rules? Should it be level 20+ support, or should it be level 14-20 support? Should it be focused on non-combat, role-playing encounters? Should it be a rehash of the much maligned Epic Level Handbook? Read any of the threads on these boards about the problems inherent to high level play and you'll see there is very little consensus on this question, which means that high level play is actually not one niche, but rather several niches.
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Creative Director
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Also, nobody seems to want to address the real pressing concern with epic level play: There is no agreement on what epic level stuff should look like and what it should accomplish. Should it be a simplification of the existing rules? Should it be level 20+ support, or should it be level 14-20 support? Should it be focused on non-combat, role-playing encounters? Should it be a rehash of the much maligned Epic Level Handbook? Read any of the threads on these boards about the problems inherent to high level play and you'll see there is very little consensus on this question, which means that high level play is actually not one niche, but rather several niches.
Frankly, it's not the job of these boards to answer that problem. That's our problem to answer. And I think that, if we at Paizo turn our minds to it, we COULD answer those problems.
Personally, I'm quite excited and eager to start trying to answer those concerns and start working on Epic Level content. The time has to be right, though, and that includes figuring out how much we'd support rules for post 20th level play.
Feedback from people who have played Epic level games before about what worked and what didn't is super valuable to us as a result. Arguments about whether or not we should do epic level type rules in the first place... not so much. Bickering and flame wars, even less so.
Which makes me wonder if we (the board's amatures) need to create a Post-20 working group or something to collect that kind of information. Google Form time?
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If they do, it will not be everywhere, which is something that i think you fear. They may do a psionic themed AP, make psions of Golarion and may add a random psionic character or monster here and there in APs and Modules. And most of those will already be statted up, so there will be no problem to use them.
You seem to have missed the point.
If paizo starts adding "a random psionic character or monster here and there in APs and Modules" then people who don't use psionics will have to rewrite those APs and Modules.
Since the majority don't want psionics in Pathfinder, doesn't it make more sense to require the minority to rewrite the published modules and APs to include psionics, rather than force the majority to rewrite the published modules and APs to exclude psionics?
I mean I would love it if psionics were fully integrated into Golarion from the start and there was a Pathfinder psionics handbook, and therefore I never had to do any work to include psionics. But I recognize that I'm in the minority, and thus I'm okay with having to turn to Dreamscarred Press for my PFRPG compatible psionics rules and having to rewrite encounters to suite the game I want.
So bestiary 4 comes out after publishing a post 20+ book and psionics. Suddenly, from some 300 or so monsters, seventy are epic and thirty or so are psionic. You still get those other 200 monsters, and maybe you can use the rest somehow. And you will be whining that from some 1200 monsters (TWO THOUSAND AND TWO HUNDRED) you can't use 100-150? Give me a break.
Please, Hama, don't accuse me of whining. That's just insulting.
I could just easily turn that around on you: So Bestiary 4 doesn't include any Epic monsters. Boo hoo, buy a 3PP sourcebook and stop whining. Don't make the rest of us subsidize your playstyle. Give me a break.
See? It's just obnoxious.
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I guess my more subtle post didn't work.
I'll try this:
Gailbraithe and Hama... please drop it. If you've got something to say that's constructive about the question of should Paizo do epic level/post 20th level content, I'd love to hear it.
I don't want to have to wade through post after post after post of arguments between you to if, at some point in the future, I go back through these boards to see what folks want and don't want in a post 20th level ruleset. That'd waste my time and make me cranky.
James... Happy 4th of July! (Now go enjoy some hotdogs/hamburgers on the grill... potato salad or macaroni salad and slices of watermelon).
Regarding "Epic" or "Mythic" level content (and I'm liking the term "Mythic" more and more actually) anyway... that is something I'm interested in seeing in the future (near or otherwise). I know (without a doubt) that you folks at Paizo will do it well and do it right.
That's my input anyway. (I wish I had run or played in Epic level games... but the highest any groups I've GM-ed have gotten would be about 17th - 18th level).
~Dean
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Why? Who says that god's power is anywhere near lvl 25?I might say exactly that for starters.
Nascent demon lords, for example, can grant spells to clerics. That technically makes them deities (in fact, it makes them demigods). They're also specifically called out by the rules in "Lords of Chaos" as being CR 21–CR 25 (with the majority of them being CR 25). We've statted up one of them so far—Treerazer. That means he can indeed be defeated and even killed by mortals.
Which is one of the reasons I'm against post-20th level rules...as that allows for mortals who can rather indiscriminately kill demon lords, archdevils, and similar beings. Frankly, I think the bar for them is set too low by for for even the existing 1-20 levels framework.
Late to this party and probably no one will read, but...
I'd like to see 2 books :
1. A guide for GMs on running 15+ games, including adventure design suggestions, fast npc generation and very high level pre gens, look design, monster customization, high cr traps and hazards, in depth planar campaign guidelines, etc.
2. 21+ players and Gms guide, pathfinderizing 3.5 epic rules, etc. For those who want them.
Late to this party and probably no one will read, but...
I'd like to see 2 books :
1. A guide for GMs on running 15+ games, including adventure design suggestions, fast npc generation and very high level pre gens, look design, monster customization, high cr traps and hazards, in depth planar campaign guidelines, etc.
2. 21+ players and Gms guide, pathfinderizing 3.5 epic rules, etc. For those who want them.
I'm at 13th level in my pbp, and I can say......a book with a whole bunch of npc's of higher levels to frag would be groovy.
I just started another pbp at first level and had to make up an encounter.......and marveled at how simple and quick the building was.
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Frankly, it's not the job of these boards to answer that problem. That's our problem to answer. And I think that, if we at Paizo turn our minds to it, we COULD answer those problems.
You think so? Because I don't think you could. Not because you guys aren't brilliant game designers, you certainly are, but because a lot of the problem stems from mutually conflicting desires from the crowd that wants epic level play.
I think the best you can hope for is creating a product that appeals to a fraction of the fraction of total Pathfinder players that want "Mythic" level play. Then it becomes a real question of if that's profitable and thus worth doing, or if its impractical and best left to 3PP.
I mean, let's say you guys go the direction of Mythic = Exalted, with 20th+ level characters able to level mountain ranges with a single spell, leap from Golarion to the moon, and slaughter armies of ancient wyrms in a single combat round.
Well, great. That will certainly appeal to some of the high level enthusiasts. But it will completely turn off the people who want Mythic = Birthright, with 20th+ level characters as emperors of world spanning dynasties, interplanar diplomacy, and other tropes.
Personally, I'm quite excited and eager to start trying to answer those concerns and start working on Epic Level content. The time has to be right, though, and that includes figuring out how much we'd support rules for post 20th level play.
And of course you'll also have the problem of backwards compatibility. If you introduce rules for 20th+ level characters, then suddenly beings like Treerazer and monsters like the Spawn of Rovugug become...well, chumpmeat.
That was a big problem in Dungeons & Dragons, especially in settings like Forgotten Realms. The further you expand the top, the more underwhelming the lower levels become. Is the party that kills Treerazer the most badass collection of adventurers in Golarion, or are they just some chumps who haven't even begun to have adventures? And if they're chumps, then what does that make the 6th level party that saves a city? The 12th level party that saves a city? The 18th level party that stops Kyuss from bringing about the Age of Worms?
Feedback from people who have played Epic level games before about what worked and what didn't is super valuable to us as a result. Arguments about whether or not we should do epic level type rules in the first place... not so much. Bickering and flame wars, even less so.
Hey, thanks for misrepresenting the actual discussion, James. We're not arguing about whether or not you should do epic level type rules in the first place, if you pay attention the actual argument is more like "Are people who don't want epic level play just really bad people, or the worst people ever?" on one side and "Could you please stop insulting us for disagreeing with you?" on the other.
There wouldn't be any bickering or flame wars if the people who want some version of Mythic rules could just stop framing their arguments by presenting themselves as the poor, defenseless victims of the evil, nasty and selfish people who think 10th-20th level is plenty Epic enough already.
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There also wouldn't be any bickering if either side would just stop responding to the other.
Sure, but some people don't like walking away from an argument just because the other guy started being insulting or threatening.
If I make my point and user x makes his point while also dismissing my point as the opinion of a selfish jerk and I don't respond, then what's the take-away? That I'm the bigger man and user x's opinion is probably garbage, which is why he needed to tear me down in the process of making his point? Or that I'm a selfish jerk and my opinion shouldn't count?
I wish I had enough faith in other people to believe I don't need to defend myself (and, by proxy, others who share my opinion), but reality does not seem to support that conclusion.
But yeah, whatever. Typical internet BS. You're damned if you defend yourself, damned if you don't, and at the end of the day the liars and dirtbags always get their way.
If you've got something to say that's constructive about the question of should Paizo do epic level/post 20th level content, I'd love to hear it.
My perspective is odd - I don't want post 20th level sourcebooks, but I'll buy anything you put out. Nonetheless:
I think the biggest reason I'm hesitant is the time required in running high level play. The best I can manage is a 3-4 hour session maybe once per week (if we're lucky). The few high level 3.5 sessions I've played in (never played high level pathfinder) mean that that is one and a half combats at best (maybe two if one of them is relatively easy). There is a, perhaps unjustified but nonetheless natural, assumption that epic level play is going to be like that but worse.
What I would really like to see from you is a 12-20 sourcebook first - one with some guidelines on how to run a high level campaign (everything from adventure design to tips on speeding up play). I'd personally be interersted in some optional subsystems (things like simplified 'economy rules' if you wanted to build a mercantile empire, 'political influence rules' for those who wanted to develop the campaign in that way and so forth) - it seems to me that fleshing the characters out in those directions would be a welcome 'enrichment' rather than just becoming better at killing stuff.
Certainly, by the time you begin producing 20+ level sourcebooks/adventures I'm only really interested in giving it a try if I'm reasonably persuaded it's going to fit within the 3-4 hour session, once a week limitation that later life has forced on me. The 3.5 Epic rules just seemed like 'on each turn - look up more feats, more options, roll more dice and add up more damage'. No doubt an unfair characterisation since I've never actually played them, but that's nonetheless the reason I'm not interested.
As a further comment which just occurred to me (and hence isnt particularly well thought out) - I think I'd like a golarion focussed sourcebook outlining 'what high level people do' - kind of a mini-campaign setting for super-high level people. Like if the other planets are teeming with super-high level monsters and NPCs scheming, plotting and fighting against one another's agendas - it kind of feels to me like 20th level (within Golarion) is the absolute peak of human achievement. Getting there and then just...going further..seems like a little ho-hum - I'd prefer if reaching what had previously seemed to be the peak was actually just the start of a whole new vista. Telling a story at that level might be interesting to me.
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Creative Director
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Which is one of the reasons I'm against post-20th level rules...as that allows for mortals who can rather indiscriminately kill demon lords, archdevils, and similar beings. Frankly, I think the bar for them is set too low by for for even the existing 1-20 levels framework.
Once you're at 20th level, nothing you do should be indiscriminate.
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Creative Director
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You think so? Because I don't think you could. Not because you guys aren't brilliant game designers, you certainly are, but because a lot of the problem stems from mutually conflicting desires from the crowd that wants epic level play.
Perhaps we can't. I'm still eager to try.
And of course you'll also have the problem of backwards compatibility. If you introduce rules for 20th+ level characters, then suddenly beings like Treerazer and monsters like the Spawn of Rovugug become...well, chumpmeat.
The Inner Sea region is built to be a "playground" for 1st to 20th level characters. If we did something with Mythic levels/Epic levels/post 20th level/whatever we'd call it, the Inner Sea region would be very UNlikely to be the playground. We'd pick somewhere or somewhen else. And so the worry of Treerazer being "chumpmeat" is not as much of an issue.
Hey, thanks for misrepresenting the actual discussion, James. We're not arguing about whether or not you should do epic level type rules in the first place, if you pay attention the actual argument is more like "Are people who don't want epic level play just really bad people, or the worst people ever?" on one side and "Could you please stop insulting us for disagreeing with you?" on the other.
There wouldn't be any bickering or flame wars if the people who want some version of Mythic rules could just stop framing their arguments by presenting themselves as the poor, defenseless victims of the evil, nasty and selfish people who think 10th-20th level is plenty Epic enough already.
If anyone is misrepresenting anyone, it's you; you're not presenting yourself in a calm and collected manner. Using abbreviations like "BS" or words like "liars" or "dirtbags" do not evoke a sense of calm, well-reasoned argument to me—they make posts feel antagonistic and confrontational. You're being abrasive, whether you realize it or not. Are there other folks on this thread being abrasive as well? Yes... but not to the extent and frequency of your posts. Further frustrating things for me is my perception that you DO have some important things to say about the topic. It's just hard to address them without getting my blood-pressure up when you're so aggressive and abrasive.
If ANYone can't continue to post in this thread in a civil manner, I request that you not post at all.
I wanna hear it, Merlin.
I got a group of 13th level on my pbp, and that's the highest level I've ever played at.
Let me know what to expect, man.
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Which is one of the reasons I'm against post-20th level rules...as that allows for mortals who can rather indiscriminately kill demon lords, archdevils, and similar beings. Frankly, I think the bar for them is set too low by for for even the existing 1-20 levels framework.Once you're at 20th level, nothing you do should be indiscriminate.
Depends on the campaign style. If it is sandbox, then 20th level is pretty much a license to indiscriminately do whatever the hell you want. Who's going to prevent it?
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I opened a thread in this sub-forum that I'd like for all who want to use 20+ rules to post in with their feedback on ELH and epic rules in general. Of course, everyone who played epic level is welcome to drop in their 2c.
I apologize for rising your blood pressure James, that was not my intention. I just tend to take things a little personally sometimes.
I mean, let's say you guys go the direction of Mythic = Exalted, with 20th+ level characters able to level mountain ranges with a single spell, leap from Golarion to the moon, and slaughter armies of ancient wyrms in a single combat round.
Well, great. That will certainly appeal to some of the high level enthusiasts. But it will completely turn off the people who want Mythic = Birthright, with 20th+ level characters as emperors of world spanning dynasties, interplanar diplomacy, and other tropes.
What is stopping them from doing both?
Maybe half the book can be devoted to things that resemble heroics from greek myth where demigods and powerful mortals defeat impossible odds and kill unkillable beasts, and the other half is devoted to running kingdoms and intrigue and stuff.
I see here a problem that some people think that Paizo needs to use ELH to make their 20+ rules. That is ridiculous. They do not have to use a single mechanic from that book. Not. A. Single. One.
It certainly would be easier, but it is not necessary at all.
After all did Paizo use the SRD and just copy/pasted it to make Pathfinder. No. They changed things that they didn't like and invented some new stuff.
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Gailbraithe I do not know what you want. You pose me questions I answer them and you either do not like the answers or act like you do not understand them. No one else in this thread seems to have a problem with what I post except you. At this point all Im going to do is move on because your not really interested in a civil discussion. your not showing any real signs of calming down and if its not my posts that bother you then someone else will set you off. I still think your trying to get this thread shut down. Rather than let it get closed I will just stop anwering your posts at least in this thread. A word of advice if your having a bad day or just not in the mood to be contradicted I suggest you not go on any forum. Your not going to be a happy with what you see posted. Nor is yelling at the top of your lungs going to make me or anyone else want to listen to what you want to say.
SOOO, I figured I'd provided useful statistics for James and anybody else of import who reads this thread. Apparently, tis a good idea after the intense back and forth that's taken place.
Anyways here's the following facts I've gathered:
Myself included, there are 76(give or take 5 or so) posts that are in favor of post 20th play.
However, there are a whopping 18(again give or take 5 or so) posts against post 20th play.
And we have 1 person(perhaps a few more) that are a "Maybe"
Those that are for post 20th level rules have the following comments/concerns:
1) We want "Mythic" rules to be supported beyond just one book. Leaving it in a vacuum all by itself is a disservice and reeks too much of WotC.
2) We want the rules to be very much streamlined and different that 1-20. We want our characters to really FEEL Mythic.
3) The 3.x Epic Spellcasting system was beyond horrific and terrible. Thus we want to make sure said "Mythic" rules create a far better system to cast spells beyond 9th.
On the other side, the biggest complaints against these rules are thus:
1) Some feel that the game is epic enough at it's current cap of 20. No need to make more rules.
2) There is a worry that with the creation of "Mythic" rules, 1-20 content will suffer.
3) The game is already confusing/difficult to run/play in at high levels(which seems to be anywhere from 12-20)
I this helps James and Co and I really, really hope that the seeming large amount of support based on this thread at least, means that a 20th+ level rulebook will be created soon.
Ok, so I've also been following this thread:
E20: The Game Outside The World's Most Popular RPG.
I posted a suggestion/variant there which fits what *I* would like to see. It also addresses my comment that I disliked caps by providing options rather than blocks.
While the idea is not the Mythic option many posters seem to be looking for, it may well address some of the objectiosn that have been made.
Meanwhile, let me think about what 'Mythic' means to me and how I'd like it projected in game.
So, anyway, yes, for both the core rules (solar in Bestiary) and Golarion in particular (the demon lord supplements), there is an established assumption that you do have demigods with CRs in the mid-20s.
This leaves you with, I believe, only a few approaches:
1) A level limit somewhere between 20th and 25th level for non-divine characters (whether as an end to gaining levels or as an automatic transition to demi-divine status).
2) An end to the CR-level relationship, so that your 36th-level character is still challenged by CR 25 opponents.
3) Non-divine characters reaching levels of power where they can significantly overmatch demigods (36th-level character versus CR 25 demigod).
I really, really don't like the third, myself.
Depends on the campaign style. If it is sandbox, then 20th level is pretty much a license to indiscriminately do whatever the hell you want. Who's going to prevent it?Which is one of the reasons I'm against post-20th level rules...as that allows for mortals who can rather indiscriminately kill demon lords, archdevils, and similar beings. Frankly, I think the bar for them is set too low by for for even the existing 1-20 levels framework.Once you're at 20th level, nothing you do should be indiscriminate.
Well, one of the purposes of an high level book could be helping GMs handling these situations, set proper challenges, re-invent the world and expand it, go in deep in detailing cosmic powers, suggest possible priorities of high powered beings...
I this helps James and Co and I really, really hope that the seeming large amount of support based on this thread at least, means that a 20th+ level rulebook will be created soon.
it helped me. As a rule these days I don't read flame wars, but you allowed me to take in both sides. So thank you. Add me to the pro-post-20 camp.
So, anyway, yes, for both the core rules (solar in Bestiary) and Golarion in particular (the demon lord supplements), there is an established assumption that you do have demigods with CRs in the mid-20s.
I don't think it's a good idea to define an entire subset of rules based on a vague comment in the solar entry, especially one that could be interpreted so many ways.
In Golarion - sure. But that doesn't mean that all campaigns work that way. Just because Golarion demon lords are CR25-30 doesn't mean mine are. FYI, mine usually range from 40-80, though they may have avatars in the 25-35 range. I haven't bothered statting out any of the Lords of the Nine or any demon princes yet, but that's where most will fall.
This leaves you with, I believe, only a few approaches:
1) A level limit somewhere between 20th and 25th level for non-divine characters (whether as an end to gaining levels or as an automatic transition to demi-divine status).
A valid choice. One that I will never use, but certainly valid. This is what 4e does, and this is what the "automatic path to the divine" following likes.
2) An end to the CR-level relationship, so that your 36th-level character is still challenged by CR 25 opponents.
I've seen APL55 parties badly challenged by EL35 encounters. Just like a clever kobold can be a challenge for a mid-level party. Not everything has to charge forward and attack.
Besides, what's wrong with easy confrontations? Not every encounter should be a day-ending resource drainer.
3) Non-divine characters reaching levels of power where they can significantly overmatch demigods (36th-level character versus CR 25 demigod).
I really, really don't like the third, myself.
And not only is #3 my preferred solution (though it has built in an assumption about divine power), but it's what I've been using in my campaign since 2006. Ultra powerful characters with no automatic path to godhood, and without trying to alter the CR system.
I have no intention of limiting my game based on a comparison between solars and demigods in the Bestiary. And if someone really really insisted that it had to be that way because the Bestiary said so, I'd simply respond that it was talking about an advanced solar, probably in the CR35 range, and one of the very weakest of the demigods, who would probably be in the CR40 range. Of course, demigods have other resources as well that don't factor into CR ...
Thing is, you'll never see Pathfinder stats for demon lords and the like until above-20 rules are put out. You can fake it with the stuff from Fiendish Codex and the like, but that pulls in all sorts of unsupported material.
Thing is, you'll never see Pathfinder stats for demon lords and the like until above-20 rules are put out.
They provided stats for Achaekek in Adventure Path #9. I know that's not a true God and furthermore it was pre-Pathfinder rules (not sure if it uses any epic rules) but it is listed as CR30, so it might be useful to those of you looking to play epic campaigns currently.
A question occurs to me is: can Paizo afford NOT to do high-level and post-20 content? The Main Competition has this avenue covered and while I'm no expert on 4E I've heard that it's balanced and playable.
As Heathy has pointed out, after Ultimate Combat how much more is there really to do in the way of core/base mechanics if you don't go in this direction? Assuming they don't want to do a whole lameass series of Races of Dorky Nomenclature.
There is always going to be room for expansion in Golarian but as far as the rules line goes how different books can you make if you limit your options to the base 20 levels?
Psionics obviously comes to mind but Paizo seems to regard that as even greater anathema than the epic stuff.
I know one of their chief concerns is to not make a competing rules system. Which means everything they come up with has to compliment and go hand-in-hand with the existing rules.
I certainly want a high level handbook. But my game is currently level 17 and still going strong.
I'm hoping that this is productive:
I'm interested in "epic stuff", things like ruling kingdoms, exploring planes, founding religious orders, holding up the sky, hanging upside down from the WorldTree, carving your name into the stone tablet of Fate. Stuff like that.
However, for reasons previously voiced, I disdain the way that Pathfinder plays above level 10 or so.
The idea of "Mythic Adventures" is quite cool. And I would hate to have to be high level in order to do them. By that I mean: I don't want to have to slog through levels 11-20 to "get there", and once there, I don't want to put up with having 20 levels of rules-confusion sitting underneith me.
I want to have simple, balanced, workable rules (ie Pathfinder at level 6), but still do totally awesome/mythic stuff, and have comprehensive rules support for it.
The Kingmaker AP was great in this respect. I got to rule a kingdom, plan out cities, and establish my name on the face of Golarion without having to deal with 4 iterative attacks and 9 levels of spells.
More of that please.
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Myself included, there are 76(give or take 5 or so) posts that are in favor of post 20th play.
However, there are a whopping 18(again give or take 5 or so) posts against post 20th play.
And we have 1 person(perhaps a few more) that are a "Maybe"
The thread is called "Do you want high level content?" Clearly it's going to attract more yeses than noes.
The thread is called "Do you want high level content?" Clearly it's going to attract more yeses than noes.Myself included, there are 76(give or take 5 or so) posts that are in favor of post 20th play.
However, there are a whopping 18(again give or take 5 or so) posts against post 20th play.
And we have 1 person(perhaps a few more) that are a "Maybe"
How does that make any sense??
If you started a thread asking "Do you only want the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard as the only classes in in Pathfinder 2.0?" doesn't it stand to reason that if the majority of people reading it do NOT in fact want that, despite what the OP may wish, then the thread would get far more No responses??
There's nothing preventing people from coming on this thread and voicing their desire to NOT have "High level content". Why do you feel it's "clearly going to attract more yes than no posts?"