I am curious if Ramir the false god of Ramiran is somehow capable of granting spells to his "clerics"? If he is supposedly an ascended being who passed the test of the Starstone, I would assume that his inability to grant spells would raise a lot of suspicion as to his true nature. Given that he seems to be taking great pains to hide the fact that he is aging and the Inner Sea World Guide says that information could cause the nation to crumble if it was discovered suggests that he has the nation fooled.
Just curious, I am planning to run a campaign near this part of the world and was wondering if there is any information on this topic.
Most of his "clerics" are arcane casters with either healing potions or spell in a can healing, to fool general folks. Coupled with lots of intimidation and brainwashing.
|
Factions supplement:
the Ramiran priesthood faction (I don't have it at hand, so I am not sure how it is called there) give faction status to people that donate healing equipment, both mundane and magical.
I would say that the limited capability to heal is a real problem of the Razmiran faith.
Remember that a bard has access to several cure spells and to neutralize poison, so a bard member of the priesthood can "fake" clerical powers.
Add an alchemist to the mix of fake clerics and you get remove disease.
The only "basic" curing spell they will miss is restoration as far as I can see and I hope that the typical NPC will need it rarely.
Just curious, I am planning to run a campaign near this part of the world and was wondering if there is any information on this topic.
The module "Masks of the Living God" has a great deal of information on the Cult of Razmir. It is, basically, all about one of their plots.
|
In addition to bards, which make awesome 'priests' (and, thanks to their bardic performance, are even better at NPC priestly duties like rallying and inspiring and converting people than clerics), there's also rangers, who, even at low levels, can use wands of cure X wounds, remove disease and neutralize poison.
And there's the adepts, who don't have to worship a god, but can derive power 'from their own strength of faith,' and add not only the ranger healing spells, but also remove curse, restoration and raise dead to the list of cleric-adjacent healing options.
Gods & Magic adds the option that arcane spellcasters devotes to Sivanah, goddess of illusions, reflections and mystery, to use shadow magic spells to emulate conjuration (healing) spells, which include cure X wounds spells, restoration, raise dead, etc. and, both in the Sivanah write up, and via the magic item on p. 57, it's shown that worshippers of Sivanah are supporting the fake priesthood of Razmir, in some way.
APG adds alchemists, oracles and inquisitors to the mix.
Ultimately, Razmir, at this point, is pretty much filled to the brim with potential sources of healing magic, even if there are no actual clerics of Razmir.
Bards, rangers, adepts, arcanists of Sivanah, alchemists, oracles, inquisitors. It's *possible* that a LN or CN or NE druid might even work for Razmiran interests, at some point.
NPC classes are supposed to be much more common than PC classes among the general population, so I'd expect the majority of Razmiran healing-priests to be adepts. Adepts may not be clerics, and are missing a few spells (lesser restoration, resurrection), but they get the job done.
Even if alchemists, oracles and inquisitors are rare, or not available, for whatever reason, the bard, ranger, adept trio can handle things pretty well.
|
|
This is something to which only James Jacobs can reply with certainly, but I am almost sure that every divine spell user in Golarion should chose a patron deity, Oracles, Adepts and Ranger included.
I doubt any true deity will grant spells to a a Rasmirian "fake" priest unless he has some ulterior motive (like taking over the cult after Razmir dies).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is something to which only James Jacobs can reply with certainly, but I am almost sure that every divine spell user in Golarion should chose a patron deity, Oracles, Adepts and Ranger included.
Quite possibly so, but we don't have any rules stating that, so, until otherwise 'clarified,' that, in Golarion, all rangers, adepts, oracles, etc. *must* have a god (even if oracles were *explicitly designed to get around this,*) I'd stick with the rules as written.
I doubt any true deity will grant spells to a a Rasmirian "fake" priest unless he has some ulterior motive (like taking over the cult after Razmir dies).
Sivanah already does this, per Gods & Magic, although we have no idea what her 'ulterior motives' might be. She's a sly one...
I could see a few other trickery-minded deities getting in on the action as well, if they thought they could get away with it. Asmodeus, for instance, is LE, and Razmir's philosophies are sympatico with his own. After Razmir dies, and he snatches his soul away through some infernal contract and promotes him to a lesser devil lord under his command, Asmodeus has the potential to add an entire human nation to his current holdings, by sweeping up all the Razmiri.
Granted, Sivanah's already 'on the ground,' so to speak, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a bit of behind-the-scenes backstabbery going on, as priests (clerics and otherwise) of other deception-inclined deities put on masks and make attempts to hand the souls of thousands of Razmiri to their own deities.
Calistria, given the Razmiri interactions with Kyonin, probably has a few provocateurs working undercover as well, although they are less interested in reaping the souls of the Razmiri than they are in just messing with them for political reasons.
Sivanah is, IMO, too subtle to be doing something as obvious as attempting to gain the souls of Razmiran as worshippers-by-proxy.
I wonder if she is performing a grand experiment, to determine whether or not, in the post-Starstone world, it is even *possible* to ascend to godhood in the old-fashioned way that Irori, Nethys and Urgathoa did, pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, instead of going to the magic candy dispenser that is the Starstone and having godhood granted to you, in the way that Cayden Cailean, Iomedae and Norgorber did.
Perhaps, she fears that the Starstone is a tool of the Aboleth / Dark Tapestry folk who sent crashing to Golarion in the first place, and that each new deity who strides forth from it has hidden strings to masters that they don't even know about, making them colossally powerful versions of the Azlanti Gillmen, tools and subjects to dark masters, who gave them power, with the intent to twist it to their own designs, in time...
|
|
Oracles were specifically designed for this purpose. They are the shamans, pantheists, and philosopher-priests of Golarion. Which means that yes, an oracle could worship Razmir and still receive all his powers.
Just to keep with the oracle feel, I'd probably say that an oracle wouldn't specifically worship Razmir himself, but might revere a concept or philosophy that he feels that Razmir embodies, such order, or luxury, or magical might, or the divinity of man*, or something. Heck, an oracle of fire might even consider Razmir a big deal, since he did burn an entire city to the ground as his first display of power...
*I totally wanted to write up a 'divinity of man' sort of oracle, that would work well with post-Arodenites, Rahadoumi and Razmiri, but was discouraged by the recent decision that Rahadoum was going to change to being a primaril evil nation that didn't just prohibit god-worshippers, but also rangers and adepts and other non-god-worshippers.
In the long run, I'm not sure if setting assumptions about Razmiran and Rahadoum really work that well with the addition of oracles to the setting (and adepts, which are supposedly more common than clerics, and always get forgotten...).
Creative Director
|
This is something to which only James Jacobs can reply with certainly, but I am almost sure that every divine spell user in Golarion should chose a patron deity, Oracles, Adepts and Ranger included.
I doubt any true deity will grant spells to a a Rasmirian "fake" priest unless he has some ulterior motive (like taking over the cult after Razmir dies).
Only clerics HAVE to pick a patron deity. Other divine spellcasters can, but they can also worship philosophies and the like. Picking a false god as a source for divine magic is still something that wouldn't normally work, since you need faith to power divine magic, and if you find out the thing you're worshiping is a sham, that generally breaks the faith (and thus the access to divine magic) into tiny splinters of hopelessness.
|
Creative Director
|
I believe you've also said in the past that both paladins and inquisitors need to choose a patron god. This made sense to me, as both classes seem intrinsically tied to enforcing certain dogmas. Could be wrong though.
I'd be curious to see a quote of me saying that, since we do have paladins and inquisitors who don't worship specific deities in the world already. Certainly most of them DO worship deities, but they don't have to.
|
|
Varthanna beat me to it, but I found;
Several posts supporting godless oracles and other non-god-worshipping divine spellcasters.
James has shifted position slightly on Inquisitors, originally considering them gods-worshippers like Clerics, but that thinking has evolved to include the possibility of even Razmiran Inquisitors.
I do recall (although I'm not finding it on a search), someone suggesting that anyone who gets a Domain (which would include Inquisitors) must serve a god, but that would seem to be 'old thinking' and not something that would be a hard-and-fast setting rule.
*
Until ten minutes ago, I did not know that you could click on a poster's name, view their recent posts and then Search that poster's posts for a topic! (like, say, Inquisitor, or Oracle)
That's so hot. These messageboards never cease to surprise me.
Depening if they made Razmir in mind with the later released books I would have to say their is alot of iffy stuff in regards to him. From what I have read he is just a sneaky high level wizard that tricked, blasted, and bullied his way to power. He is mortal and slowly dying of old age. If you do not take Ultimate Magic into account he could be a 20th level wizard. It has stated he is in secret talks with Thuvia to try and get his hands on the Sun Orchid Elixir to try and cheat death. It makes sense he would not choose lichdom as thats risky and then he would have to die and prove himself not a god, unless he went thru the big trouble of trying to hide his undead status but I think thats beside the point.
If you take Ultimate Magic into account then he is below 20th level as wizards can become immortal at that point. I doubt someone so concerned about their own mortality would not attain it if it was with in their power.
So pretty much its more if he needs to be updated or if he is more cunning then powerful. Etheir way he is just an old man, granted a powerful and cunning one.
Btw correct me if I'm wrong but clerics dont have to pick a god, they can just worship and draw power from concepts such as good and law. So while a worshiper of Razmir would not be granted spells, a worshiper of what he stands for could reasonably be granted spells. Kind of how like those who worship evil flock to tyrants, not so much for the tyrant but for the work he does.
|
|
Btw correct me if I'm wrong but clerics dont have to pick a god, they can just worship and draw power from concepts such as good and law.
Pathfinder game rules, yes, a cleric can worship a concept or a philosophy or his ancestors or 'the divinity of man' or a hand-puppet named Banjo. That's just the Pathfinder game rules being backwards-compatible with the 3.5 rules.
Golarion setting, no. All clerics in Golarion must worship a god. References to composite deities like Shimme-Magalla (sp?, Heart of the Jungle), pantheist dwarves and elves (Gods & Magic), functional clerics of Walkena (Heart of the Jungle, NPC Guide), or Aroden, or that girl-in-a-box in Kaer Maga (City of Strangers), or to the Domains that clerics of the Godclaw get (PC Campaign Setting) are mistakes that slipped in before (and, sometimes, after) godless clerics were clarified as a no-fly-zone in the Golarion setting.
Much like the Forgotten Realms setting, which modified the 3.X rules and said that clerics and druids and rangers and paladins *had* to choose a god, but that paladins could follow CG Sune, and paladins and monks of various faiths could scoff at the multi-classing restrictions, in very specific ways, the Golarion setting also adds a caveat to the core options, limiting clerics in the setting to only be a marriage between one god and one cleric.
But, that applies to the *canonical* Golarion setting. If you want clerics of philosophies or ethos or wannabe-'gods'-who-may-be-big-fakers like Walkena and the girl-in-the-box and Razmir, that's between you and your GM.
Some of the 'philosophies' kinda make sense to be endorsed by certain gods anyway. A 'cleric of the philosophy of Diabolism' is pretty much just a cleric of Asmodeus, the founder of the left-hand path. A 'cleric of the Whispering Way' could just be a cleric of Urgathoa who has a specific factional tie, along with his faith, only different from any other cleric of Urgathoa in that he's also subscribed to the Whispering Way newsletter.
I would think that oracles (and to a lesser extent sorcerers) would be one of the keystones of the church. I've been assuming that they identify these individuals when they're young, seize them, and then say "hey, you're powers come from this guy."
Btw correct me if I'm wrong but clerics dont have to pick a god, they can just worship and draw power from concepts such as good and law.Pathfinder game rules, yes, a cleric can worship a concept or a philosophy or his ancestors or 'the divinity of man' or a hand-puppet named Banjo. That's just the Pathfinder game rules being backwards-compatible with the 3.5 rules.
Golarion setting, no.
Because you wanted it, Set.
Greg
|
|
Btw correct me if I'm wrong but clerics dont have to pick a god, they can just worship and draw power from concepts such as good and law.Pathfinder game rules, yes, a cleric can worship a concept or a philosophy or his ancestors or 'the divinity of man' or a hand-puppet named Banjo. That's just the Pathfinder game rules being backwards-compatible with the 3.5 rules.
Golarion setting, no.
Because you wanted it, Set.
Greg
Not that Banjooo, this Banjo.
Only clerics HAVE to pick a patron deity. Other divine spellcasters can, but they can also worship philosophies and the like. Picking a false god as a source for divine magic is still something that wouldn't normally work, since you need faith to power divine magic, and if you find out the thing you're worshiping is a sham, that generally breaks the faith (and thus the access to divine magic) into tiny splinters of hopelessness.
Very interesting. So it is still possible to be a functional oracle of Aroden.
|
I doubt any true deity will grant spells to a a Rasmirian "fake" priest unless he has some ulterior motive (like taking over the cult after Razmir dies).Sivanah already does this, per Gods & Magic, although we have no idea what her 'ulterior motives' might be. She's a sly one...
I could see a few other trickery-minded deities getting in on the action as well, if they thought they could get away with it. Asmodeus, for instance, is LE, and Razmir's philosophies are sympatico with his own. After Razmir dies, and he snatches his soul away through some infernal contract and promotes him to a lesser devil lord under his command, Asmodeus has the potential to add an entire human nation to his current holdings, by sweeping up all the Razmiri.
Granted, Sivanah's already 'on the ground,' so to speak, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a bit of behind-the-scenes backstabbery going on, as priests (clerics and otherwise) of other deception-inclined deities put on masks and make attempts to hand the souls of thousands of Razmiri to their own deities.
Calistria, given the Razmiri interactions with Kyonin, probably has a few provocateurs working undercover as well, although they are less interested in reaping the souls of the Razmiri than they are in just messing with them for political reasons.
Reaping the souls of the Razmiri is an interesting question.
If you're an atheist, like the Rahadoumi, Pharasma essentially punts your soul into a stasis/"burial ground" for Groetus. If you're a false believer.... does the same happen?
Or perhaps by the terms of Razmir's contract, all believers' souls are his, which are then instantly shunted to his patron. Also it's quite possible that Asmodeus isn't the patron.
I notice that the Red Mantis hasn't stopped him yet. And the Red Mantis has a mandate to stop false gods.
The Red Mantis may be tasked with killing false gods but they are also obligated to not fulfill contracts on rulers. Razmir may have found a loophole.
The Red Mantis may be tasked with killing false gods but they are also obligated to not fulfill contracts on rulers. Razmir may have found a loophole.
That to me sets up a most interesting political shell game. The red Mantis can't directly act on him due to their conflicting rules and tasks. Yet they want him dead as per their other rule. So this evil faction of assassins is playing patron to adventurers who they push to kill the evil false god and his liars and thieves. The whole way the two factions are looking for the key to Razmir's eternal life with opposite intentions (He wants it to live they want to gank it so he can't) leaving these poor heroes caught in the crossfire and getting pressured on both sides (As the mantis tries to get them to do their bidding and the "Loveable good and noble ruler" tries to get them to help him).... That is AP or even set of modules that could be cool....
I'm pretty sure Razmir is a sorcerer, not a wizard. At least that's what I recall reading in the old 3.5 Campaign Setting. We'll all know Razmir's true nature (or at least his class levels) when Inner Sea Magic is released - just a few weeks away.
If your talking about Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting then I have it and it does not state anywhere that he is a sorcerer unless its tucked away somewhere I missed. It only states he is an arcane spellcaster, I lean to wizard because sorcerers manifist more of their bloodline as they grow in power and thats never referenced. But I could be wrong, still leaning towards wizard none the less. Just have to wait til Inner Sea Magic to find out. >.<
|
|
I don't think it's clarified either way, but my thought is sorcerer over wizard. He seems to be at least somewhat charismatic, and wizards now have that immortality discovery, which would probably be something he wishes he could learn...
He burned his 20th level feat before the discovery was available and now he can't retrain ;)
The Red Mantis may be tasked with killing false gods but they are also obligated to not fulfill contracts on rulers. Razmir may have found a loophole.
Achaekek (He Who W£alks in Blood) the Mantis God has the task to kill the false gods. His descriptions say that he is sent to kill those that have risen in power and in some way challenge the gods.
Probably Razmir isn't powerful enough. Maybe if he was capable to attain immortality and so become a long standing false good it would attract Achaekek attention.The Red Mantis assassin cult kills the false rulers.