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Background: I run about 64 Pathfinder RPG games a year for my weekly and monthly groups.
Game System: Pathfinder RPG
Issue: I'm having trouble avoiding pulling the punches on the effective encounter level. I'm confessing that I don't mind putting the fighter/barbarian type against a more agressive foe, but due to wizards/sorcerers/druids/etc in the party, I tend not to run a full on challenge (as I should.)
Examples: Party level 10 facing three CR 10 Nessian War Hounds. The fight was good for about the first two rounds. The creatures breathed and bit etc. But the fight was over with just two of six players injured. I originally planned to have two addtional mountain trolls (v.3.5 MMIII) with the hounds, but when the encounter started, I never brought them in.
Game Mechanics: Most are familiar with Monte Cooks system of 13 encounters of low medium high ratings during the character level. But I'm more interested in just one-off encounter planning with the assumption of healing/rest in-between. Additionally, lets assume we count CR ratings for monster groups using the classic slope of "x2=+2CR"... this means 4*CR1 Orc = CR5, or 8*CR4 Thingys = CR10. The slope as I call it means every time you double the number of monsters the CR goes up by 2.
Request: Can you share with me some aspect ratios between EPL (effective party level) and the EL (encounter level)? We could also just use PL for party level and CR for the overall CR of the monsters/foes etc. For example... you might say, "for a tough fight of 11th level characters, I'll use _______". "For a normal fight for CR11 characters I'll use...______".
Confession: The only way I will get better, is if I read and listen to your posts. I'm willing to hear someone say I don't know what I'm doing if they feel like ripping on me. I truly just want to learn to make better encounters.
Caveat: Lets assume only 1-2 groups of creatures in an open outdoor area and without the usual Boss-Lackey-Minion groupings i.e. Warchief-Guardsmen-Minions. I'm aware that the battle structure of guardsmen and minions can make even normal encounters play tough, as well as use of terrain and structures, but I'd like some advice on core math of PL v. CR first, please, and thanks!!!
Regards,
Pax
G
The only way I will get better, is if I read and listen to your posts. I'm willing to hear someone say I don't know what I'm doing if they feel like ripping on me. I truly just want to learn to make better encounters.
With an opening like that who can resist. Seriously, you're on your way to being a great GM, if you think you always have something to learn.
I'll argue that that there really isn't such a thing as a 'normal' fight. Trying to mathematically calculate what a particular party will defeat on a particular day will drive you crazy.
It all depends on your players, if you find you're having to pull punches, the encounters are too tough regardless of what the math says. Also if you have to softball because of certain party members, you have to refocus the group to work as team. This might mean that you have to allow characters to die or nearly so.
Coddling the party won't help the party get stronger. Just because the fighter can go toe-to-toe with something doesn't mean he can forget the other aspect of being a meat-shield. He needs to protect the squishies.
Three Nessian War Hounds should be a difficult encounter for a level 10 party. If only a couple of PCs are injured you might not need to softball as much as you think you need to.
The one problem I see is that you are looking for advice for only 1-2 groups of creatures. One-off encounters with resting in between means that you seriously need to increase the challenge compared to several encounters in a row.
Especially, if the players can meta-game that they will only face a single challenge before resting as they know they can pull out all the stops and use those 1/day powers. So, in a one-off fight they'll fight at a higher effective level.
That's why I seriously try to avoid just throwing one encounter at a group. To seriously challenge a 10th level party (BTW, six 10th level characters should really be treated as effectively 11th level) you need to have something in the APL+3 or APL+4 range. The problem is when you start looking at CR 14 and CR 15 challenges that often have special abilities that make them particularly hazardous if the PCs have some bad luck.
Because of having a large party size and wanting to avoid high-CR abilities, I would recommend you increase the number of foes instead of just boosting the CR.
If the players do meta-game (intentionally or not) you can mix up encounter toughness. For example if we take your Nessian Hound example, I assume was perhaps some 'random' wandering monster encounter. Instead of running a single relatively tough encounter run two closely coupled encounters.
Have the Nessian Hounds me the hunting dogs of mountain trolls. Instead of CR 10 Nessian Hounds, use maybe CR 5 Winter Wolfs. The fight starts, the PCs dump a lot of resources and take down the Wolfs very quickly. About five minutes later the Trolls show up looking for Fluffy, they are well aware of the PCs by now and are ready for them. Likely they will find the PCs with their guard down and have used their 1/day resources.
At some other point you will need to run a long series of relatively low-challenge encounters without a break. The idea is to get the players not to think in terms of fight, rest, rinse, repeat.
Sorry, I've rambled off the original topic a bit. Don't try to find a single formula because players will come to expect that and you will have to up the challenge. Mix things up and don't softball bad tactics of the players. (I'm not a killer-DM, but if you avoid taking advantage of these tactics the players won't learn).
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Hm... there really isn't a tried and true way to tell what CR your party can handle. Generally speaking, I've run encounters at CR+2-3 for the full 8 levels my party has been playing. Occasionally I'll run it at CR+0-1 for a silly or fun encounter, and the few really menacing bosses we've had are CR+4-5. The biggest thing to remember, though, is that encounters can change dramatically depending on party ability.
For example: Our party recently had an encounter that seriously (almost killed) 2 party members, and killed another outright. This was a CR+3 encounter, which are normally pretty run-of-the-mill. However, due to the Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, and Special abilities of the creature, the party's ability to fight well was SEVERELY hampered, to the point of an almost TPK.
Basically, keep your party's limitations in mind. Remind them of their weaknesses every so often (target a Druid's Reflex save, a Wizard's Fort save, etc.), but don't do it with the intention of killing them. Do it so that you can show them that they have weaknesses, and this fear is usually enough to make encounters more interesting. At least, that's what I do.
Also, remember to control your encounters so that they're fun, not necessarily deadly. I ran an encounter with 6 Ogres that should've been a challenge for the party, and with smart tactics they could've killed them. However, I made the ogres do more fun things (like tossing one of their legless companions like a Projectile Grappler), and making them slap each other for doing something stupid, which made the encounter one of the more memorable ones.
As others have replied, there are too many variables to give one set answer. It sounds like you have a new and relatively inexperienced group, which may be why you are feeling you have to pull punches to avoid killing the spellcasters. A well-played spellcaster in a balanced party shouldn't be any more vulnerable than anybody else, at least beyond the lowest levels. They ned to learn their defensive options better. Sometimes the only way to teach them those options is to have opponents use them against them (or kill them repreatedly if they aren't using them). A mountain troll trying to hit a flying caster with mirror image, displacement, mage armor and shield up is going to get frustrated pretty quick.
Generalyl the best way to do these things is start bu using the book guidelines and then adjust it based ion actual experience. If your group is struggling, you need to decrease encounter difficulty a bit. If it's a cakewalk, bump it up a bit.
The other thing think about is that all CR 6 are not the same.
7 level Cleric on open field no buff up CR 6
Same Cleric with 10 round of buffs in open field CR 6 yes by the book but no where near the same fight.
Cleric 7 in open field CR 6
Cleric 7 in open field with potion of Invisibly and 10 rounds time casting Summon Monster III 2 times, Summon Monster II 3 times, Summon Monster I 4 times. CR 6
3 Charter with Same Equipment, Same Stat, Same Terrain, Same Spell total. Same CR way different fights...
Plane old Orc Warrior straight out the book does way to much damage for CR 1/3 the Average is 9. Is gold right, sure stat, but I made new monster that was same CR 1/3 it should be only doing about 3*. which is 3 time as much as it should be. It dose average damage that all most equal to CR 2 which 1. AS per Bestiary page 291, and page 222.
*Which is guess since the table only goes down to CR 1/2
GMing is an ART not a SCIENCE. As much as I wished to to be. It take time and results will Vary form fight to fight. Do to a ton variables. Which is why we role dice to see what happens.
But the fight was over with just two of six players injured.
As a player, statements like this make me nervous. I once had a DM who liked to have every encounter to end up with the party barely alive, multiple PCs knocked unconscious, etc. I hated that, although he was a great DM otherwise.
What I see in general what you laid out seem fine to me.
But I have some Questions.
Wealth buy level on the right curve for all PC and the party as a whole?
Balanced Party? IE 4 basic rolls filled.
Party Size? more than 4
Pets?
Party synergy is good or bad? ie party full team work feat that use them is stronger that one the dose not have them or use them.
Tactics is Party well versed in them and know all what there PC can do or do they forget that they can do this or that.
Are the PC build Strong or week?
Are Monster Build Strong or week? see early post Orc Warrior.
What I do is the highest CR any monster or bad guy in a fight is not more than CR +3. If I have large party 5 PC then I add CR = to APL
So 5 level 6 PC then Boss CR 9 and CR 6 body guard or several smaller that equals to 6. Like math that you used.
If there is Buff cast or potions ect before the fight the I add CR equal to the spell that they cast for each spell. If it effected the fight. ( ie if the wizard cast bull STR but make no Melee attack that add his new STR in then did not matter)
Pre buff 10 spell /Potions cast/ used is 10 CR ie 3 summon Monster III is CR 3& CR 3 , 4 summon II CR 2, CR 2 CR 2 CR 2, Potion of invisibility CR 2 , 4 summon Monster I CR 1 CR 1 CR 1 CR1.
I also like to run level plus 3 fight per day max. So level 5 8 fights. With any fight CR -2 though CR +3 as single monster/bad guy.
I also like to run chain fight. Fight A then 1d4 rounds then next fight. If the PC do not move to the next fight then it is coming to them. Ie dungeon or castle.
Edition war be careful full 3.0 ,3.5 late 3.5 Pathfinder all monster, feat, spells, ect are not equal as well. So be careful.
Do you add any home rules that make easier or harder.
Supper Stats Base line Pathfinder game is 20 point by. For most AP.
If PC have 4d6 reroll ones and good rolls not the same.
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...[good stuff)...
Thanks!
I'm okay at running what I call "24" dungeons. These are ones in which the smaller encounters acumulate toward an end fight where most resources are depleted by then. Your examples are good ones, and I noticed you concurred with the volatility of entering 2 mountain trolls looking for fluffys... and you shared the possibility that I might need to have the encounters flow to the point of death if needed, to create more of a tactical "protect the casters" behavior on the part of the fighters. This is what I'm after.
Truly good stuff, Some Call Me Tim. Thanks.
-Pax
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...party barely alive, ...
I hear you, hogarth, and its not the case here. The quandry right now is improving some of my core math. As others have said its an art, not science, but there is an element of math I suspect I'm missing. Encounters where only a few are injured isn't a problem. The issue is that my ESTIMATE calculation was that the challenge would be a bit more formidable, and the party isn't deluged with magic items or anything wonky. I'm trying to peel back my estimating I guess, for those certain encounters where I wish the challenge to be optimally challenging.
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The other thing ......see what happens.
Very good point. There are a lot of variables, and context is king when it comes to the challenge. In fact, this is why I tried to narrow my question to the context of open field, trying to level set a bit more.
My central need is how, formulaically, I can estimate and deliver the type of encounter challenge I plan, all other things being equal.
I'm trying to peel back my estimating I guess, for those certain encounters where I wish the challenge to be optimally challenging.
All I'm saying is that optimally challenging for the GM is not always optimally challenging for the players. So hopefully you'll get their input before tinkering with the difficulty of your campaign. (It sounds like you're a reasonable guy, so I assume you will.)
An encounter where the party doesn't feel at least some nervousness that they might get wiped out isn't worth it for about 90% of the cases, IMO. Yes, put in 10% encounters where the party just cake-walks over the soft opposition, but the rest need to have at least some punch, so that there is the need for at least a bit of healing up.
Three Nessian Warhounds against a party of level 10 characters is about okay. Not really challenging at that level , but it costs them some resources.
After level 10 the PC's take off immensely in the power department and at least I feel the need to make them sweat the survival of their characters in at least some encounters, so I'd probably throw rather two CR 13's at them in those cases. Although I got very experienced players, so you may want to keep it a bit more manageable if you have newer players. :p
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Here are the answers to your questions Tom S 820...
What I see in general what you laid out seem fine to me.
But I have some Questions.
Wealth buy level on the right curve for all PC and the party as a whole?
<b>Yes. On level for both. </b>
Balanced Party? IE 4 basic rolls filled.
<b>Aye. Four food groups represented. </b>Party Size? more than 4
<b>Six players, 5 were present during aforementioned encounter. </b>Pets?
<b>None were launched yet as it was a sudden, although unsurprised attack after morning breakcamp. </b>Party synergy is good or bad? ie party full team work feat that use them is stronger that one the dose not have them or use them.
<b>Synergy good, but team synergy mechanic not used per se.</b>Tactics is Party well versed in them and know all what there PC can do or do they forget that they can do this or that.
<b>I'd say 80% of group is fully aware. </b>Are the PC build Strong or week?
<b>PCs use an epic array. So strong. </b>Are Monster Build Strong or week? see early post Orc Warrior.
<b>Monster build RAW, no fancy stuff. </b>What I do is the highest CR any monster or bad guy in a fight is not more than CR +3. If I have large party 5 PC then I add CR = to APL
<b>Excellent, so now as the party turns 11, I'll consider them 12 and introduce no higher than 1 CR15, or two CR13s or 4 CR11s? </b>So 5 level 6 PC then Boss CR 9 and CR 6 body guard or several smaller that equals to 6. Like math that you used.
If there is Buff cast or potions ect before the fight the I add CR equal to the spell that they cast for each spell. If it effected the fight. ( ie if the wizard cast bull STR but make no Melee attack that add his new STR in then did not matter)
Pre buff 10 spell /Potions cast/ used is 10 CR ie 3 summon Monster III is CR 3& CR 3 , 4 summon II CR 2, CR 2 CR 2 CR 2, Potion of invisibility CR 2 , 4 summon Monster I CR 1 CR 1 CR 1 CR1.
I also like to run level plus 3 fight per day max. So level 5 8 fights. With any fight CR -2 though CR +3 as single monster/bad guy.
I also like to run chain fight. Fight A then 1d4 rounds then next fight. If the PC do not move to the next fight then it is coming to them. Ie dungeon or castle.
<b>I like this idea. I stagger the introduction of creatures during a fight, i.e. "three more arrive from around the corner" rather than placing all at once. Makes it more naturally spaced, and makes combat interesting. </b>Edition war be careful full 3.0 ,3.5 late 3.5 Pathfinder all monster, feat, spells, ect are not equal as well. So be careful.
<b>I see on edition war between 3, 3.5, and PFRPG, but I do understand how things changed for certain genres of beasts from 3- 3.5. I do use my library of 3.5, but 3.0 is out of the question. </b>Do you add any home rules that make easier or harder.
<b>No, actually, I run RAW. (with GM as final arbiter); EXCEPT for the epic array for characters. I'm running (*blasphemy, I know... I use my own homebrew array: 17,16,15,14,13,12 for all players - with a move 2 option. The purpose for this is intended for more powerful play, now i just need to keep up my end of the challenge bargain in return. </b>Supper Stats Base line Pathfinder game is 20 point by. For most AP.
If PC have 4d6 reroll ones and good rolls not the same.
Something from my experience:
The difficulty of an encounter is influenced by so many factors that it's impossible to gave a easy formular.
What classes are in the party?
What is the terrain?
What equipment do they posses?
Know the palyers their skill?
Can they play their skills?
etc.
General I try to go with a simple philosophy:
- make it epic make it bigger
This count for the encounter as much as for the players.
A fun and intressting encounter haven't to be a hard one, had a session a few weeks ago, where I managed to create a awesome encounter with 4 kobolds, a snow spider and the characters frozen home town (also a few funny but not deadly traps).
I think there are many good hints about encounter design in the GMG, aside from number crunching. :)
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... great point about when characters get beyond L10
You know, here's where I think there is a 5th element if you will. The unspoken variable you reminded me of is that once characters get beyond level 10 it feels like a slightly higher jump in power than was felt during L1-10.
I've been reflecting that my encounters have been most formidable in many ways during L1-10. But now in L11, I'm thinking the thing that I should change is the leaning toward more challenging rather than more toward mid range.
Using the formula: -2<PL<+3
Your comments, coupled with the reminder that I have one house rule that boosts the character's attributes to epic array, suggests I should probably be operating at -1<PL<+4 for the higher levels 11-15.
*ponders*
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... talked about the qualitative aspects of combat
Yes, Tyrn, I agree. Memorable, epic, and using advice of great DMs like James Jacobs, Monte Cooke, Gary Gygax... I'm here to improve, always. Yet, this thread is specific to the math.
I think I'm getting closer...
Here's what I'm considering based on this dicussion (regarding the math):
1) I should play at -1<PL<+4
Rationale: Typically it would be up to 3, but since my players have a hero array, I can go 4.
2) All other things being equal, this forumula handled the array of encounter types during a day, with the high end reserved to just 1 major per day.
3) Character death, as a reality, might be put on the table next week, allowing a challenging encounter to run its course.
4) Upon further reflection, I may also not be using all the "FEATS" the monsters possess, as there are a number of new ones in PFRPG. I need to brush up and ensure I'm using them.
5) While memorable encounters usually have nothing to do with the mechanics, I believe more of everyone feedback will help to ensure when I'm targeting a type of encounter power level that I can actually execute that level of power. (this is not power-mongrel DM, and most cases will run the spectrum of challenge.)
6) My ability to estimate power level includes all the aforementioned variables, but now thet they're generally identified, outside of contextual/terrain/item circumstances, I should be able to hit the target challenge I'm looking to execute.
SCENARIOS: Can anyone actually share examples from Bestiary I, II for my 11th level party to get me started... I'm thinking... CR11 party meets CR15 creature, with 1 CR12 guard and 4 CR4 minions. The guard/minions are provided for due to having six players, not four playing the game.
1 stone golem CR 11 Guard & 1 red dragon (adult)CR 14
2 vrock CR 9 & 1 nalfeshnee CR 14
2 bone devil CR 9 1 ice devil Advanced CR 14
1 lich with +2 level of Wizard 2 CR 14 2 vampire CR 9
1 air elemental (elder)CR 11, 1 Earth elemental (elder)CR 11 1 Fire elemental (elder)CR 11, 1 Warter elemental (elder)CR 11
2 night hag with fighter level 2 CR 11 and 2 cauchemar nightnare CR 11
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I don’t know how helpful this will be to you Pax (or anyone else reading this) but I have done a little tweaking and playing around with the CR/EL system in my game
First off base AVP is calculated (averaged level of PCs rounded up) and then gets a +1 EL for every two PCs
So a party of 8 level 9 PCs will have a total baseline CR/EL (average encounter) of 11. That is the base starting point for that group. 6 PCs of an averaged 11th level would have a baseline of CR/EL 12.
This is what I use for standard "mixed" encounter types.
There are some mods you can do for optimization or encounter type, I use two – Melee encounters and Specialty encounters.
Melee encounters – Heavy fights with hp mounds (Giants, big monsters. Etc) I add +1 to each martial PCs level before the average
So a party of 8 level 9 PCs with 5 of them being fighter types I add +1 to each. So now it is 5 x 10 = 50, plus the 3 caster/med fighter types (27) = 77/8 = 9.62 = 10th level. + 1 for every 2 over 4 PCs for an AVPL of 12th.
That would be the baseline for a heavy solid Melee encounter
So 8 level 9 PCs in a mixed (normal) encounter would count as AVPL 11
8 level 9 PCs in a melee top heavy fight would count as AVPL 12
A specialty fight (incorp, flying or hard to hit) is a little harder to calculate. Subtract -1 level off of each martial, total them up then add in the other classes rounding down the total.
So the above example:
5 martials at 9th level (8 each) is 5 x 8 = 40. Add in the 3 casters/other at 9th level (27) is 40+27 = 67/8 =8.37 =8th level + 2 more for 4 PCs over 4 = 10 AVPL
This group (5 Martials and 3 casters/other)
So:
8 level 9 PCs in a mixed (normal) encounter would count as AVPL 11
8 level 9 PCs in a melee top heavy fight would count as AVPL 12
8 level 9 PCs in a specialty fight/encounter would count as AVPL 10
This will all need to get adjusted up for epic array, super optimized, heavy magic, etc.
On the issue of increased number of reduced CR creatures I think this only works if all party members are impacted. It's one thing to have a party of 6 PCs vs 1 big guy and 4 minions, a whole other situation if there are two slightly weaker big guys and 8 minions - enough to get to the softer PC targets. As long as they (the monsters) don't cluster for area attacks and each PC has more than one target you (imo) will get a better fight.
It doesn't even matter if the CR for the minions are very low in relation to individual PCs, casters out of their element (close range fights) are going to have a harder time dealing with their assigned/covering foe. The other party members will not get as much support dealing with their assigned foes until one part of the group gets some headway (kills their cover) and is free to act.
Just what works for me
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1 stone golem CR 11 Guard & 1 red dragon (adult)CR 14
2 vrock CR 9 & 1 nalfeshnee CR 14
2 bone devil CR 9 1 ice devil Advanced CR 14
1 lich with +2 level of Wizard 2 CR 14 2 vampire CR 9
1 air elemental (elder)CR 11, 1 Earth elemental (elder)CR 11 1 Fire elemental (elder)CR 11, 1 Warter elemental (elder)CR 11
2 night hag with fighter level 2 CR 11 and 2 cauchemar nightnare CR 11
Good stuff. Basically I'm seeing the issue more clearly now.
1) I've read though all these replies... thank you all.
2) I've re-read the guidelines for encounter building in PFRPG CORE RULEBOOK and find its just another way to describe the "slope" I already use from 3.5 i.e. every time you double the monsters you raise CR by 2.
3) I've been holding back on encounter builds that make use of boss/guard/minion logic, even though I'm highly aware of it ; I've just not wanted to get the players killed, as they're vested in the story and this campaign has gone on for years. I will make death more of a reality via true challenges in the high to epic range more often, but no more than 1 epic per day.
4) My particular players have the boon of my epic stat array, and I will surcharge the CR+1 when selecting creatures.
5) I've introduced a slightly higher amount of character wealth and magic items, but this is borderline, so I wont surcharge CR for this. Its not outrageous, just have a few character with items above their character wealth. I'm not sure this is worth acting on.
6) I'll use the formula -1<APL<+4 for the spectrum. This shifts it from the -2 to +3 range, one CR increment over to the right (more challenging based on #4 above.
7) I'm going to re-read through all the universal monster rules, as I've reflected I'm not using power attack where its applicable, and suspect there are a few other feats I probably skip over in the heat of combat, especially when there's so many stats to adjudicate.
8) I'm going to make some extra pogs or tokens (whatever you'd call 'em) to facilitate the ease of placing new exciting monsters in the game, even though their respective mini isn't available. I already do this but haven't a large supply of large bases. I make these out of magnet paper for weight and ability to either use the black top survace for a cool look, or affix a picture of the creature to it.
9) I'm going to start introducing more "character class" NPCs (at the proscribed -1 CR penalty as described by PRRPG CORE RULEBOOK. For lesser NPCs without character class I'll ascribe a -2 to the CR, as noted also.
10) I'll print some new character sheets for the players. Mwahahahah. jk
You also have to take into account the number of encounters per adventuring day and adjust accordingly, but I don't have math for that. For example, Kingmaker has a lot of 15 minute days, and encounters have to be tweaked for that (possibly a lot - our GM used the advanced template and max hit points just as a starting point) unless a GM intends a lot of random monsters. Otherwise the healing and spell pools have a much greater impact on that single fight than they would if the party anticipated future encounters (especially worse ones) before they could rest. So a dungeon crawl with constant danger has to be built differently than an overland journey. Wasn't there a 3.x guideline about how much different relative ELs should consume of party resources? (I'd look it up, but it's in a box, I'm moving.)
Request: Can you share with me some aspect ratios between EPL (effective party level) and the EL (encounter level)? We could also just use PL for party level and CR for the overall CR of the monsters/foes etc. For example... you might say, "for a tough fight of 11th level characters, I'll use _______". "For a normal fight for CR11 characters I'll use...______".
We use all sorts of ELs and whatnot. Constant ELs make for a stale game I feel. So what, conveniently everything you run across is appropriately of the correct EL for the party? Hell no.
Back in our 3.5 days (this still applies to our PF games as well), our 7th level party would run into ELs ranging anywhere from 2-13. What our party of 4/5 could handle at a 50/50% was about EL 10, although once you start killing things of EL>EPL, WBL gets thrown off a ton and it becomes easier to fight higher ELs
So really, it all depends on how willing you are to break free of the video game type scaling of encounter difficulty and if you really care about the WBL at all. And don't be afraid to have ELs of EPL-5 or more.
Nothing like scaring the crap out of your players only to have the Fighter Whirlwind Attack and wipe out 8 enemies. It allows the party to work on their tactics a bit and lets them showcase their class.
Specifically for our PF games, EL of EPL+1 is considered common, +2 difficult and +3 hard. Anything of +4 or higher should be run away from or dealt with another way.
IIRC, the 3e DMG said that if EPL=EL, the encounter should drain 20% of your party's resources (spells, HP, etc).
It also had the 30/50/15/5 rule, where 30% of the encounters the party faces were lower EL, 50% were same EL, 15% were higher EL, and 5% were 5 EL higher or more.
Read more here.
I've generally found that poorly equipped NPCs with either NPC or PC level classes around the same level work very well for a challenge that is not insurmountable.
For example, if I had an average party of 6 PCs at level 10, I'd consider something like the following :
10 bandits. 1 with Elite stats and most of the treasure as equipment. Say twice NPC level wealth, and either 10 levels of fighter or a rogue/fighter combo that added up to 10. Then I'd add two lieutenants with standard NPC WBL and elite stats. The other 7 guys would be NPC warriors or experts, all level 10, but with minimal kit out. MW swords, bows, etc, and standard backup weapons. Standard armor, and a cure moderate wounds potion each (to be used during the fight if possible).
That's a lot for a GM to keep track of, and two on one numbers. But they'll be mostly NPC class guys (and you can use the same stats for all 7 of the grunts, or 2 sets if you want to mix up warrior / expert). These guys have HP and attacks, but not really the equipment to keep up with 6 fully equipped PCs. Then I'd have them run if the leader and one lieutenant (or two lieutenants) were killed.
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There's a 7th player joining tonight. Jeez, a GMs work is never done. Back to the math chalkboard I guess...
5 L11 PCs + 2 L12 PCs = Base CR 11 + 1 for more than 5 PCs, +1 for hero array and aforementioned things = CR13.
Tonights encounter faces a Glabrezu CR12, and Babau CR6 (I'm away from my books atm, but I think that's what they are). So, ... we multiply the CR6s on a slope.
2 CR6= CR8, 4 CR6=CR10, 8 CR6=CR 12.
CR12 + CR12= CR14
This leaves the encounter at APL+1 for a total CR of 13 (just 1 more than the CR13 we established earlier.
With the addition of a seventh player, its so close to a "double party of four" that one could argue adding +1 CR to the party again, but the rules don't necessarily suggest that, and I'm not so sure they'll be buffed or necessarily co-located in a tightly formed unit.
So I conclude tonights adventure is challenging but not hard or elite after all. Jeez... when is it gonna get tough?
Perhaps we bump the number of CR6s one last time to 16 making them CR 14 overall. A total of 17 demons should make for an "epic" encounter from a meorable perspective even though mechanically the party is anticipated to be successful, with about 40% overall power decrease.
The volatility factor (mentioned upthread) of playing at the 10-15 range suggests we can expect the possibility of a death, depending on how well the player strategy rolls out. Dunno... I look at the PATHFINDER Glabrezu last night, and woah, reverse gravity and blight are going to really sock it to them.
If anyone goes toe-to-toe with this beast, its got the REND monster universal rule. I'll stop back tomorrow and let you know how it goes.
I'm documenting here that I predict this encounter is not hard or epic, but yet "challenging" based on a CR13 party facing a CR14 threat (still CR14 even with the the re-doubling up to 16 minor demons.
Reverse gravity is not going to be as useful as you might think. At best, he can get people slammed into the ceiling, if he wants. Flight of any kind pretty much negates it. Plus, if he's throwing it around he's going to hit his own grunts. Now, he may not be all that caring of that, but they will take damage too. And Babau do not have flight, and only mediocre reflex saves.
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Reverse gravity is not going to be as useful as you might think. At best, he can get people slammed into the ceiling, if he wants. Flight of any kind pretty much negates it. Plus, if he's throwing it around he's going to hit his own grunts. Now, he may not be all that caring of that, but they will take damage too. And Babau do not have flight, and only mediocre reflex saves.
Right on. He did not use reverse gravity, but he did use a lot of cool spells like Unholy Blight, Chaos Hammer, and Mirror Image. This felt very good as a GM, as I was using the creatures powers as the main bad guy well, while using the minions as interference, keeping players busy with them.
When he did make contact on a character he got in a rend ability after hitting with two claws. So the fight was fierce.
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Follow Up...
For those folowing this thread, here's how it wen't down.
The players heard pleas and calls of terror from the fortress. About three rounds of running to the fortress placed the PCs in the main doorway/road within the large complex.
The Glabrezu was stationed in the center of the complex within a semi-open chamber from which it entered vis a vis an ancient teleportation device. While the PCs were entering and engaging the Babau's, the Glabrezu opened up with:
>Mirror Image
>Unholy Blight
>Chaos Hammer
>Teleported to proximity of combat to briefly parley then attacked
Meanwhile the Babau began distributed all over the PAZIO town map and they flooded out of buildings and moved down streets to attack.
After a few were either Commanded or slayn, they all retreated via teleport to the central location to regroup, and the boss came to attack. One druid character was down -105, leaving only 4 hp left. Two others were sevearely injured. At this point I moved the Glabrezu toward the main character holding an artifact the Glabrezu wanted and redistributed the other minions on rooftops, readying for annother assault. About half the minions went into buildings during that round to slay the rest of the special NPCs for which I'm going to reward xp if they are saved. One of the characters' mentors is in a building with three minions, having already slayn one, but is on death's door.
One of the players will likely now move to rescue the mentor, while the others hold the fight with the Glabrezu.
Unfortunately, due to roleplay, and combat time for six players (the 7th could not make it), this all took time, and we unforgivably "paused" the combat and marked up the PAZIO wet erase map for next time.
In this case, nobody was bummed that we paused the combat, because the tide of combat can still tilt back against the players. What I found amazing is that the ranger was able to pierce the AC28 armor of the Glabrezu with multishot in a way that, due to a PAZIO Critical Hits Deck, knocked him back 15 feet. This was mega-cool.
The fighter meatshield in the bunch is holding his own, and I'm finding it either hard to hit him with the CR 6 Babaus, or finding he still has a wealth of hp. This tells me the players are being fairly strategic as the fighter is holding the line of the Babaus for now.
I knocked off 2 Babaus contextually, as the inhabitants of the area would have slayn at least 2 of them, though i described the complex is very much a slaughter zone, with many of the NPCs slayn.
Here's what I think I did well and not well:
1) I pulled a punch. The Glabrezu could have done a full round attack on the druid and slayn him quite handsomly, but I stopped after the first attack rended for some kind of composite total of 57 after two claws and a rend. Instead I moved him toward the PC he wanted dead most, and justified that after the dramatic rending, he figured the druid was either a non-threat or dead and he had a specific agenda to acquire an item from another PC, so he used a move action to get nearer that PC.
2) I think I used the area of effect spells well, and have a dispell magic to use next time to get rid of a giant earth golem the druid summoned.
3) Contextually, the roleplay and the story continued during combat with the secondary combat goal of rescue. I think the set up went well, and also think it feels on the money as far as being about +1 to +2 CR higher than aggregate party level.
Overall, I thank you all for your help. And will keep this thread alive a bit longer for your additional thoughts. Also, I will stop back after next session in about two weeks to let you know how it all turns out.
Regards,
Pax