Are slings light, 1 handed, or 2 handed?

[thepuregamer]

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

[Nimon]

Reloading a sling takes two hands and provokes AO(even with warslinger trait). I guess in some situations if you had 2 loaded you could fire both, reloading would be interesting. The halfling sling staff is a decent weapon though since can be used as a blunt weapon in melee and has 80' range.

[Howie23]

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

There is no RAW answer. I would go with one-handed for TWF penalty purposes, but all you're gonna get are opinions.

[Starglim]

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

A sling is a ranged weapon. It requires one hand to fire or two hands to load. If you have four hands, you can load and fire two slings simultaneously as you say.

A few thrown weapons are specified as light weapons in the TWF section (page 202), but no projectile weapons. Since they are not light weapons, both slings would take -4 penalty with the TWF feat.

[phantom1592]

I'm not a fan of halflings as a rule... so i only glanced at the halflings of Golarion book.

However, I know they have a LOT of feats and weapon concepts for Slings... Things like Juggling with one hand and reloading the sling on the move... there are 'double slings' with a sling on each end of a polearm... Definitley worth checking out if your interested in a halfling slinger...

[0gre]

Nimon wrote:

Reloading a sling takes two hands and provokes AO(even with warslinger trait). I guess in some situations if you had 2 loaded you could fire both, reloading would be interesting. The halfling sling staff is a decent weapon though since can be used as a blunt weapon in melee and has 80' range.

Why not just use rapid shot?

[thepuregamer]

0gre wrote:

Nimon wrote:

Reloading a sling takes two hands and provokes AO(even with warslinger trait). I guess in some situations if you had 2 loaded you could fire both, reloading would be interesting. The halfling sling staff is a decent weapon though since can be used as a blunt weapon in melee and has 80' range.

Why not just use rapid shot?

Yeah I was thinking that using rapid shot would be the eventual choice.

Though I find it weird that a weapon made of leather that shoots a rock could be anything but light.

[Some call me Tim]

Core Rulebook, Chapter 8, page 202, Two-Weapon Fighting:

"Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.[emphasis added]"

Thus spake the Rules-As-Written.

[thepuregamer]

thanks tim. Looks like they already thought of that one.

Looks like the best way to go is to follow ogre's suggestion and do rapid shot.

[Red Wullf]

Howie23 wrote:

There is no RAW answer. I would go with one-handed for TWF penalty purposes, but all you're gonna get are opinions.

Sure there is a RAW answer. Matter of fact, the answer is exactly where you'd expect to find it, under Projectile Weapons rules in Equipment.

Core Rulebook, pg. 141, Melee and Ranged Weapons:

Quote:

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, half ling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.

Furthermore...

Some call me Tim wrote:

Core Rulebook, Chapter 8, page 202, Two-Weapon Fighting:

"Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.[emphasis added]"

Thus spake the Rules-As-Written.

Actually... Core Rulebook, P. 148, Sling:

Quote:

Sling: A sling is little more than a leather cup attached to a pair of strings. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a sling, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a sling with one hand. Loading a sling is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.

Thus clarified the Rules-As-Written.

[LazarX]

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

[0gre]

LazarX wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

His character has four hands.

[thepuregamer]

0gre wrote:

LazarX wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

His character has four hands.

Yup sometimes that second sentence is just too long to waste time reading.

[brassbaboon]

Arg, I hate it when words are bastardized... "Vestigial" means organs or structures that have atrophied through evolutionary processes, which would mean that there was some ancestral four-armed halfling race for a halfling to have two NORMAL and two VESTIGIAL arms... Also "vestigial" typically means "atrophied" and implies they are pretty much useless, as humans have a "vestigial tail" and many snakes have "vestigial legs." If they can load a sling, they really don't qualify as "vestigial" in my opinion... But what are ya gonna do? People are gonna name things what they want, actual definitions be damned...

I dunno where the vestigial arms come from, but they smell cheesy to me anyway. (Or is that the halfling's toes I'm smelling?) If you can use "vestigial" arms to load and fire two slings, why couldn't you use two to load and fire a sling and two to cast a spell?

Why stop at 2 "vestigial" arms? Why not six? Or Eight? Toss a whole friggin' SHOWER of sling stones at your enemy. Toss in a vestigial tail or three and do it all hanging upside down from a tree! Or heck, pick up a couple of "vestigial" wings and do it from 30 feet in the air.

I think my next character is going to have a second vestigial head and be a dual spell caster....

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

Arg, I hate it when words are bastardized... "Vestigial" means organs or structures that have atrophied through evolutionary processes, which would mean that there was some ancestral four-armed halfling race for a halfling to have two NORMAL and two VESTIGIAL arms... Also "vestigial" typically means "atrophied" and implies they are pretty much useless, as humans have a "vestigial tail" and many snakes have "vestigial legs." If they can load a sling, they really don't qualify as "vestigial" in my opinion... But what are ya gonna do? People are gonna name things what they want, actual definitions be damned...

I guess they could have named them semi-useful arms.

brassbaboon wrote:

I dunno where the vestigial arms come from, but they smell cheesy to me anyway. (Or is that the halfling's toes I'm smelling?) If you can use "vestigial" arms to load and fire two slings, why couldn't you use two to load and fire a sling and two two cast a spell?

vestigial arm is a alchemist discovery from ultimate magic. It gives you an extra arm.

brassbaboon wrote:

Why stop at 2 "vestigial" arms? Why not six? Or Eight? Toss a whole friggin' SHOWER of sling stones at your enemy. Toss in a vestigial tail or three and do it all hanging upside down from a tree! Or heck, pick up a couple of "vestigial" wings and do it from 30 feet in the air.

I think my next character is going to have a second vestigial head and be a dual spell caster....

well, the discovery specifically states that you can only take it twice. So 2 extra arms is the limit through alchemist discoveries. these arms do not give you extra actions or even extra attacks. So they should not lead to multi-weapon fighting. So I think there is likely not too much cheese here.

If you want a second head I think there is a discovery that gives you a parasitic twin who stays hidden inside your body most of the time. Though I think your twin only allows you to reroll failed saves. not the most impressive twin.

[Howie23]

Red Wullf wrote:

Howie23 wrote:

There is no RAW answer. I would go with one-handed for TWF penalty purposes, but all you're gonna get are opinions.

Sure there is a RAW answer. Matter of fact, the answer is exactly where you'd expect to find it, under Projectile Weapons rules in Equipment.

Indeed. My bad. I knew some were listed, but didn't realize sling was listed and made the mistake of not looking. Mea Culpa. Thanks Red, Tim and others for correcting my bad in a more dedicated fashion than I provided. For weapons that aren't listed, it comes down to a GM call using the provided list for comparison.

Thanks again for fixing my bad, guys.

[brassbaboon]

Yeah, I just looked up the alchemist and the vestigial arms and wings discoveries. Ug. Hadn't seen that before. I don't play an alchemist and didn't look too closely at that section (obviously).

Well, it says you can't use the arm for extra actions, but I've already seen one thread where a fighter wants to dip into alchemist to gain a third arm to hold a shield so they can two weapon fight and use a shield. I guess that's a sword and sword and board fighter....

I suppose as flavor I would be fine with a four armed character fluffing their full attack multi-attacks or rapid shot as coming from different sets of arms.

I have to say that adding extra sets of arms to a character seems to me to be opening up a boatload of potential cheese... But what the heck, there's no such thing as elves either...

Edit... it did appear to me that the OP was specifically trying to use his extra arms to gain an extra sling attack, which seems to me to be an extra action, and his only question was "do I take a -2 or -4 penalty" so the cheese seems to be creeping in already...

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

Edit... it did appear to me that the OP was specifically trying to use his extra arms to gain an extra attack, which seems to me to be an extra action, and his only question was "do I take a -2 or -4 penalty" so the cheese seems to be creeping in already...

lol... twf'ing with slings is cheese. Cheese is the most overused and incorrectly used term on this board.

If it bothers you so much, then lets say that I am firing the 2 slings with my regular arms and just using the vestigial arms to reload the slings. Thus the arms are not giving me extra attacks.

either way, I tend to think that the you get no extra attacks line is just to let people know that you do not get to multi-weapon fight now that you have 3 arms.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

LazarX wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

Ammo Drop and Juggle Load feats from Halflings of Golarion. That's how. Plus reloading won't even provoke an AoO.

So let us revisit the question: they're both one handed weapon so if you have TWF, you shoot at -4/-4 (main/offhand) penalty.

[brassbaboon]

thepuregamer wrote:

brassbaboon wrote:

Edit... it did appear to me that the OP was specifically trying to use his extra arms to gain an extra attack, which seems to me to be an extra action, and his only question was "do I take a -2 or -4 penalty" so the cheese seems to be creeping in already...

lol... twf'ing with slings is cheese. Cheese is the most overused and incorrectly used term on this board.

If it bothers you so much, then lets say that I am firing the 2 slings with my regular arms and just using the vestigial arms to reload the slings. Thus the arms are not giving me extra attacks.

either way, I tend to think that the you get no extra attacks line is just to let people know that you do not get to multi-weapon fight now that you have 3 arms.

Nah, there are lots of candidates for "most overused term". Cheese is probably pretty for down the list actually.

Cheese, to me, is when someone finds a rule loophole and tries to exploit it for a mechanical advantage. Some cheese is pretty minor, some cheese is pretty major. It's still cheese.

There is nothing in the RAW that says that you can use two slings at once, any more than there is anything in the RAW that says you can use two bows at once. You are using the single line in one corner of the rules that calls a sling a "one handed weapon" but that has to be loaded with two hands to justify getting an extra attack, and you were trying to further exploit things by calling it a light weapon to reduce the penalties for two slings.

This is cheese.

It's not major cheese. It's not game breaking, but it's cheese.

Would I allow it in my games?

I dunno. I'd roll my eyes though.

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

Nah, there are lots of candidates for "most overused term". Cheese is probably pretty for down the list actually.

well you are definitely helping push it up there ;p

brassbaboon wrote:

Cheese, to me, is when someone finds a rule loophole and tries to exploit it for a mechanical advantage. Some cheese is pretty minor, some cheese is pretty major. It's still cheese.

so cheese can basically be anything.

brassbaboon wrote:

There is nothing in the RAW that says that you can use two slings at once, any more than there is anything in the RAW that says you can use two bows at once. You are using the single line in one corner of the rules that calls a sling a "one handed weapon" but that has to be loaded with two hands to justify getting an extra attack, and you were trying to further exploit things by calling it a light weapon to reduce the penalties for two slings.

This is cheese.

It's not major cheese. It's not game breaking, but it's cheese.

Would I allow it in my games?

I dunno. I'd roll my eyes though.

While I do admit to prodding the rules forum to seeing if they could find out whether slings were light or not, I do not see that as a big deal. If they were considered light, that would have been nice for a possible twf'ing ranged build.

Is there anything in the rules that specifically states which weapons you can two weapon fight with? I suspect the only restriction on what you can two weapon fight with is whether you can wield(I know it is poor taste to use a term that I myself have labeled loosely defined) or hold those weapons.

Even if there was no text saying that slings were 1 handed, I would still be able to two weapon fight with them. I would likely still get the -4 penalty. With 4 arms, a person could also two weapon fight with 2 two handed weapon(also with a -4).

I do not see the supposed loophole I am exploiting.
1. You can shoot a sling using 1 hand.
2. You need 2 free hands to reload a sling.
3. I have 4 arms(thus 2 hands to fire and 2 hands for free action reloading).

I am not misconstruing anything. I do not even need to use the vestigial arms to shoot the sling. They can just spend their time reloading the slings. I am basically using all of the abilities at face value unlike some of my other unpopular ideas(that got me yelled at in the olympics thread).

[brassbaboon]

If you want to invest two discoveries into the ability to shoot two slings then fine.

Question: What will your damage bonuses be with each sling?

[thepuregamer]

had not done the calculation until now so its, as a small character slings deal d3 damage + str mod+ magical enhancement and other weapon effects + master chymist brutality bonus.

I do not have a build prepped yet. One could two weapon fight using a sling in the main hand and a light simple weapon in the off hand(maybe darts).

Or one could just use a single sling and use rapid shot(probably the better option)

This would not be a bad non bomb ranged alchemist option because mutagens pump your str and dex and master chymist gives a bonus to damage with simple weapons( it goes up to +6). Also if you go with the rapid shot option, you only need to have 1 sling and that sling can be your heirloom weapon. An heirloom sling sounds pretty funny. I think people would make fun of your family for being so poor that the weapon the pass down from generation to generation is a piece of leather and string... I bet that would set off your cheese meter.

[BigNorseWolf]

I do not see the supposed loophole I am exploiting.
1. You can shoot a sling using 1 hand.
2. You need 2 free hands to reload a sling.
3. I have 4 arms(thus 2 hands to fire and 2 hands for free action reloading).

-Loading is a non action, you can do it twice in a round, at different times, the same way an archer reloads his bow between multiple iterative attacks. The fact that he has one hand repeatedly reload is a non issue.

Shoot arrow 1
Non action: Right hand draws ammo and reloads
Shoot arrow 2
Non action: Right hand draws ammo and reloads
Shoot arrow 3
Non action: Right hand draws ammo and reloads

The hand acts multiple times, but since its a non action the hand isn't "used up" and can reload multiple times.

Likewise, an alchemist with a third hand can

fire sling from left hand
Non action use left hand and vestigal arm to reload left hand
Fire sling from right hand
Non action use vestigal arm and right hand to reload sling

In other words, you only need 3 arms to pull this off, not 4.

[BigNorseWolf]

There's a long and proud history of mighty warriors being felled with a shot from a humble sling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#David_and_Goliath

Especially among halfling communities.

A little bit of sentiment helps the cheese go down.

[brassbaboon]

I can see the argument that you only need one extra hand to use two slings. As long as you're going to allow two slings, then there's no reason not to allow one extra hand to load both of them.

As I recall David didn't use two slings to fell Goliath.

I'd love to hear a developer weigh in on this and ask them:

"Hey, when you came up with this extra limb thing for alchemists, did you really intend for that to end up with dual-sling wielding halflings, sword-sword-and-board fighters and people wielding one weapon two-handed while the third arm wields another weapon one-handed?"

Inquiring minds want to know....

[BigNorseWolf]

brassbaboon wrote:

I can see the argument that you only need one extra hand to use two slings. As long as you're going to allow two slings, then there's no reason not to allow one extra hand to load both of them.

As I recall David didn't use two slings to fell Goliath.

I'd love to hear a developer weigh in on this and ask them:

"Hey, when you came up with this extra limb thing for alchemists, did you really intend for that to end up with dual-sling wielding halflings, sword-sword-and-board fighters and people wielding one weapon two-handed while the third arm wields another weapon one-handed?"

Inquiring minds want to know....

I'm waiting for Arachnea: The alchemist vivisectionist with 4 hand crossbows for 4 sneak attacks.

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

I can see the argument that you only need one extra hand to use two slings. As long as you're going to allow two slings, then there's no reason not to allow one extra hand to load both of them.

As I recall David didn't use two slings to fell Goliath.

I'd love to hear a developer weigh in on this and ask them:

"Hey, when you came up with this extra limb thing for alchemists, did you really intend for that to end up with dual-sling wielding halflings, sword-sword-and-board fighters and people wielding one weapon two-handed while the third arm wields another weapon one-handed?"

Inquiring minds want to know....

I am not entirely sure what developers would expect you to use the vestigial arms for if they didn't plan for you to use it to wield a second weapon or to allow for you to hold a shield while using your other 2 hands for a weapon.

I have trouble seeing them make a discovery just so you can hold a potion in a free hand while the others are occupied.

[Matt Stich]

I think you're forgetting the double sling. You don't have to TWF with individual slings, use this thing and only take -2 on both rolls.

[thepuregamer]

lol what is a double sling... does that thing come with a picture?

[Matt Stich]

thepuregamer wrote:

lol what is a double sling... does that thing come with a picture?

Imagine a slingstaff type weapon but with a sling on the other end too.

[LazarX]

0gre wrote:

LazarX wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

His character has four hands.

The ruleset was really designed around standard bipedal characters. Extreme examples generally mean you need to check the monster feats and relevant rules for those. Although if you're going to build a four armed character, why waste time with slings when you can double bow or quadruple sword? The two weapon fighting rules are focused mainly on melee combat with ranged being relegated to specific exceptions.

[Loengrin]

thepuregamer wrote:

had not done the calculation until now so its, as a small character slings deal d3 damage + str mod+ magical enhancement and other weapon effects + master chymist brutality bonus.

Don't forget the off-hand has only half force bonus ;)

[stringburka]

LazarX wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

I only ask because I wonder how they interact with twf'ing.

a halfling with 2 vestigial arms and the warslinger trait could wield 2 slings and reload them as free actions. So I was wondering if this halfling would get a -2 or a -4 penalty from two weapon fighting.

When you show me how you can load and fire a slingshot with one hand and no other body parts employed, while swinging a weapon with your other hand, than you can revisit this question.

Slings aren't slingshots.

I can load and fire a sling with one hand, though I'm not very accurate being a slingn00b and all that. And technically I could swing a weapon at the same time, though I'm not very accurate with that either.

It's fortunate I'm not a fantasy character.

But what was your point anyway? That because he isn't supposed to be able to use a sling(shot) with one hand, neither is his character? I don't think he's capable of shooting fireballs or levitating either.

[BigNorseWolf]

A sling is different than a sling Shot. Most people make the same mistake because we're so familiar with sling shots but how many people ever see a sling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZzoA2iv-fQ

As you can see its fired with one hand.

Quote:

Although if you're going to build a four armed character, why waste time with slings when you can double bow or quadruple sword?

I'd imagine the advantage to the double sling is that you don't need to buy two bows with strength bonuses.

[brassbaboon]

Loengrin wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

had not done the calculation until now so its, as a small character slings deal d3 damage + str mod+ magical enhancement and other weapon effects + master chymist brutality bonus.

Don't forget the off-hand has only half force bonus ;)

LOL, that's what I was wonderin'

[brassbaboon]

thepuregamer wrote:

I am not entirely sure what developers would expect you to use the vestigial arms for if they didn't plan for you to use it to wield a second weapon or to allow for you to hold a shield while using your other 2 hands for a weapon.

I have trouble seeing them make a discovery just so you can hold a potion in a free hand while the others are occupied.

Well, I guess you have a higher regard for game developers than I do then. Unfortunately my evaluation of game designers and the unintended consequences of their poorly thought out game synergies includes things like "pun-pun" or "CoDzilla" or druids wild-shaped permanently as ape-men or a hundred other crazy exploits that eventually force re-evaluations ranging from minor errata to scrapping entire game systems to introduce abominations like 4e.....

So, let me just ask you this. If you can use your extra arm to allow your character to make an additional sling attack per turn, why can't your character use your extra arm to make an additional dagger attack per turn?

[thepuregamer]

I think that now that we are discussing the silly arms capabilities that I will quote its rules into the thread.

vestigial arm:

Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or
right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and
cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing.
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or
actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon
and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine
(using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or
hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for
example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield
a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third
hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and
“ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still
only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

Limitations of this arm:
1. You do not get any extra attacks or actions per round from this arm though it can be used to wield a weapon and make attacks as part of your routine using two weapon fighting.(so basically, this arm does not allow you to use multiweapon fighting. It gives you another arm that can be used while two weapon fighting)

2. The arm otherwise works just as well as your usual arms.

They even give an example of you attacking with a weapon in 1 hand, holding a potion in another, and then throwing a bomb with your third.

So now people should be able to see that these arms are basically meant for doing weird two weapon fighting combinations that you normally do not have enough arms for. sword/sword shield, greatsword/shield, etc.

LazarX wrote:

The ruleset was really designed around standard bipedal characters. Extreme examples generally mean you need to check the monster feats and relevant rules for those. Although if you're going to build a four armed character, why waste time with slings when you can double bow or quadruple sword? The two weapon fighting rules are focused mainly on melee combat with ranged being relegated to specific exceptions.

Yes the core ruleset assumes that most everybody is a bipedal character. But obviously the new alchemist material from the ultimate magic is a break from the core limitations. The alchemist can get extra arms, a tentacle, wings, a parasitic twin.

I could go with other double weapon builds but I was trying to examine how the new rules affected Ogre's halfling master chymist slinger idea. Sadly, I think the heavier twf'ing penalties make using 2 slings an unlikely idea. Rapid shot is still the way to go here.

[brassbaboon]

The only specifics that are provided in the discovery description is that you can use the extra arm as part of your two weapon fighting. The example they provide has one arm holding a potion, a use of the arm that you previously seemed to find trivial, but it's the only use they show.

There is nothing in that description that states or implies that the intention was "basically meant for doing weird two weapon fighting combinations that you normally do not have enough arms for. sword/sword shield, greatsword/shield, etc." If that had been their intention, it would seem to me that their EXAMPLE would have been a sword-sword-board fighter, not someone holding a potion in their extra arm.

You have INTERPRETED their intentions to include the ability to make extra sling attacks, or to sword-sword-board or potentially make two two-handed attacks in one round.

I do not believe it is remotely clear that the developers INTENDED for those sorts of exploits to occur.

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

Well, I guess you have a higher regard for game developers than I do then. Unfortunately my evaluation of game designers and the unintended consequences of their poorly thought out game synergies includes things like "pun-pun" or "CoDzilla" or druids wild-shaped permanently as ape-men or a hundred other crazy exploits that eventually force re-evaluations ranging from minor errata to scrapping entire game systems to introduce abominations like 4e.....

Interesting options are exploitable. I would rather have interesting options that could potentially be abused than standard, cookie cutter formula's of 4e.

Quote:

So, let me just ask you this. If you can use your extra arm to allow your character to make an additional sling attack per turn, why can't your character use your extra arm to make an additional dagger attack per turn?

The arm can't be used to make an attack because the evolution says so.(Drat. So much for Arachnea, my vivisectionist alchemist)

The three armed slinger is NOT using the arm to make an attack. He is using the arm to reload a sling (which seems a valid use in line with the other abilities listed of the arm.)

The only thing the third arm does is get around the properties specific to a sling that its a one handed weapon that takes two hands to load. If there was a light, one handed thrown weapon a character with 2 arms could throw them all day long with quickdraw.

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

The only specifics that are provided in the discovery description is that you can use the extra arm as part of your two weapon fighting. The example they provide has one arm holding a potion, a use of the arm that you previously seemed to find trivial, but it's the only use they show.

There is nothing in that description that states or implies that the intention was "basically meant for doing weird two weapon fighting combinations that you normally do not have enough arms for. sword/sword shield, greatsword/shield, etc." If that had been their intention, it would seem to me that their EXAMPLE would have been a sword-sword-board fighter, not someone holding a potion in their extra arm.

"The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield

a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb)."
Actually it says throw a bomb with your 3rd arm. Which would seem to be making an attack with it. either way, using the vestigial arm for two weapon fighting of any kind is not giving you extra attacks. You are not getting any extra attacks, but rather getting the usual attacks one gets from two weapon fighting.

Quote:

You have INTERPRETED their intentions to include the ability to make extra sling attacks, or to sword-sword-board or potentially make two two-handed attacks in one round.

I do not believe it is remotely clear that the developers INTENDED for those sorts of exploits to occur.

Hmmm they specifically state that you use two weapon fighting with your extra arm. They also state that you can use the arm to make a weapon attack. It seems pretty clear that you then use two weapon fighting rules when using the extra arm and not multiweapon fighting rules.

Also as bignorsewolf has already said, I do not even need to use the vestigial arms to make the attacks with the slings. I just need the arms to reload my sling.

[brassbaboon]

thepuregamer wrote:

Hmmm they specifically state that you use two weapon fighting with your extra arm. They also state that you can use the arm to make a weapon attack. It seems pretty clear that you then use two weapon fighting rules when using the extra arm and not multiweapon fighting rules.

Also as bignorsewolf has already said, I do not even need to use the vestigial arms to make the attacks with the slings. I just need the arms to reload my sling.

Look, the description specifically says that you can use the extra arm with two weapon fighting. That does not mean that the developers intended for you to be able to dual wield slings, or do sword-sword-board or two two-handed weapon attacks.

All it means is that they meant that if your third arm freed up an arm for an attack that would be legal with TWF, then you could use TWF.

I sincerely doubt they even considered the possibility that someone would interpret this as allowing dual slings, or two two-handed weapon attacks. They were simply saying "If you can do TWF attacks, then if you use one arm to hold a potion, you CAN STILL DO TWF ATTACKS."

Everything else is an exploit.

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

brassbaboon wrote:

That does not mean that the developers intended for you to be able to [...] do sword-sword-board

Why not?

It's not particularly different from sword-armorspikes-board, and you can do that without any extra arms.

[thepuregamer]

Do the rules specifically list every weapon you can two weapon fight with?

Technically a regular fighter could two weapon fight with a greatsword and an unarmed strike. He could even make the unarmed strike(likely a kick) his main hand weapon and make the greatsword his off hand attack(at major personal loss to himself).

I do not think that there is an actual list of what is allowed with two weapon fighting. Just that if you attempt to attack with two weapons as part of a full attack, you use the two weapon fighting rules.

Your view too many things as exploits. Irrationally so. Especially since there are rules precedents for strange two weapon fighting combinations. sword + shield/ keep shield bonus, two handed weapon + armor spikes or unarmed strike, mixing thrown weapons and melee weapons, etc.

I am not even certain how using 3 arms to attack with 2 swords and hold a shield is even close to an exploit. That third arm wouldn't be getting you an extra attack anyway. It would be giving you a way to use a shield.

I personally do not think I can bridge the mental gap here. Too strange for me.

[brassbaboon]

thepuregamer wrote:

I personally do not think I can bridge the mental gap here. Too strange for me.

Maybe I can bridge the gap.

Let's say a TWF with two arms has AC of 23.

Now that same TWF with three arms has AC of 28 (+3 heavy shield).

So the extra arm equates to an increase of AC that is greater than several combined feats.

Understand now?

[thepuregamer]

Actually that is hardly functionally different than improved shield bash which lets you hit someone with a shield and keep the shields bonus to ac. Except that it is a class specific ability which means it should clearly be better than a feat open to anybody anyway.

And regardless of the point of there existing improved shield bash, using vestigial arm to use a shield is perfectly in line with the RAW of the ability. Using the extra arm for a shield is definitely not giving you an extra attack. It is absolutely in line with how the ability works. No need to stretch any words. Using the third arm to hold a shield is not an exploit.

[brassbaboon]

thepuregamer wrote:

Actually that is hardly functionally different than improved shield bash which lets you hit someone with a shield and keep the shields bonus to ac. Except that it is a class specific ability which means it should clearly be better than a feat open to anybody anyway.

Yeah, it's just like a shield bash...

Except that a heavy shield for a medium character does 1d4 damage instead of d8 or d10, plus whatever special abilities or bonuses your magic weapon has. Sure.

Let me see if I can identify the witch class specific ability which translates into allowing me to dual wield slings, gain a permanent +5 or greater to my armor class, and potentially dual wield two-handed weapons...

{cue chirping crickets....}

Oh, hey! But I can deliver touch spells at range! .. just like a wizard familiar....

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

brassbaboon wrote:

Yeah, it's just like a shield bash...

Except that a heavy shield for a medium character does 1d4 damage instead of d8 or d10, plus whatever special abilities or bonuses your magic weapon has. Sure.

So ... it's worth +2 to +3 damage, on average?

And if you're shield bashing, wouldn't you have a spiked shield, making it a 1d6 damage to start with, making the difference +1 to +2 damage?

What's a standard feat value for damage ... +2 for Weapon Spec?

Sounds balanced to me.

[brassbaboon]

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:

brassbaboon wrote:

Yeah, it's just like a shield bash...

Except that a heavy shield for a medium character does 1d4 damage instead of d8 or d10, plus whatever special abilities or bonuses your magic weapon has. Sure.

So ... it's worth +2 to +3 damage, on average?

And if you're shield bashing, wouldn't you have a spiked shield, making it a 1d6 damage to start with, making the difference +1 to +2 damage?

What's a standard feat value for damage ... +2 for Weapon Spec?

Sounds balanced to me.

So you think the extra arms, which is measurably superior to shield bash, and has the potential for multiple other abilities (like dual wielding slings at range, adding a two hand str boost to two one handed TWF weapons, plus all the things the developers actually INTENDED for it to do) is "balanced" because in its very limited role in holding a shield for a TWF it's only SOMEWHAT superior to a fighter only feat....

Sure. Whatever. Clearly you are convinced.

Let the exploits begin.

[thepuregamer]

brassbaboon wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

Actually that is hardly functionally different than improved shield bash which lets you hit someone with a shield and keep the shields bonus to ac. Except that it is a class specific ability which means it should clearly be better than a feat open to anybody anyway.

Yeah, it's just like a shield bash...

Except that a heavy shield for a medium character does 1d4 damage instead of d8 or d10, plus whatever special abilities or bonuses your magic weapon has. Sure.

Let me see if I can identify the witch class specific ability which translates into allowing me to dual wield slings, gain a permanent +5 or greater to my armor class, and potentially dual wield two-handed weapons...

{cue chirping crickets....}

Oh, hey! But I can deliver touch spells at range! .. just like a wizard familiar....

I suspect the chirping crickets have taken up residence in your head.

A sword and board user gets the same ac and has a 1 or 2 point less base damage on their off hand. Hardly any difference here.

witches get up to 9th lvl spells plus many other abilities. I have trouble seeing them being sad about not being able to wield 2 slings.

Also dual wielding 2 handed weapons is hardly game breaking. It is in fact a sub optimal choice considering you will be at -4 to hit and your off hand greatsword will only be getting 1/2 str mod to damage.

Anyway, the friendly people of the boards answered my question about the handedness of a sling. I have gotten what I wanted from this thread and I have no more need to interact with you or your inaccurate notions of balance or raw.