Yar.
Showdow_of_Death: oh, you've edited your post. I was going to add that Medusa's Wrath attacks are also activated via Enforcer-Shatter Defenses, which is often a more likely scenario than via Stunning. That +37 to Intimidate means most creatures that are not immune to fear will become shaken, and the next hit makes them Flat Footed against all other attacks until the end of the next turn (which includes the rest of the attacks made in the current turn), which is what one of the criteria for Medusa's Wrath is.
...These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
~P
Yar!
You're making me want to play through FFTactics again...
...this is not a bad thing. :D
~P
Damn right! FFTactics Monks ROCK! Accumulate enough times and they do 999 damage with each fist!I think it proves more that difference people have different ideas of what the monk should be. I fully admit that my vision of the monk is informed more by playing Final Fantasy Tactics and loving the monk class in that game than anything else.
That disproves the idea that they like the monkWait, you want monks to be able to shoot an area of effect wave of Chi that dealt good damage for it action?
That would be cool.
Then again, they needed to be multiclassed ninja to hit twice. I reoriente this long enough thread with another giant can of worms ; for multiclass purposes, WIS for ninja powers, not CHA.
Kidding, please don't go that way! xD
Yar.
Showdow_of_Death: oh, you've edited your post. I was going to add that Medusa's Wrath attacks are also activated via Enforcer-Shatter Defenses, which is often a more likely scenario than via Stunning. That +37 to Intimidate means most creatures that are not immune to fear will become shaken, and the next hit makes them Flat Footed against all other attacks until the end of the next turn (which includes the rest of the attacks made in the current turn), which is what one of the criteria for Medusa's Wrath is.
...These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.~P
Awesome combo by the way, why don't rogues pick this up? You would never need to flank.
Anyway, when I did the DPR math I made Medusa's wrath automatic so it doesn't change anything.
But, are you then agreeing that a buffed monk in a suitable party has a better DPR than a two-handed fighter?
Maybe better than an unbuffed Fighter. ^^
By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.
I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.
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By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.
I turned my brother's monk into a rabbit.
He still flurried the monster to death.
It has been said numerous times, but I feel the need to say it again - nobody is mad that bloo bloo bloo people play monks. Nobody is mad because omg the monk is like the WORST CLASS EVER Y U DO THAT.
We're mostly people who like the monk but want to see it improved. That's it.
But don't you see, Prof, wanting to see a sub-par class improved is bad, because, uh, BAD, y'know!
By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.I turned my brother's monk into a rabbit.
He still flurried the monster to death.
I'm afraid to ask if that was a serious answer. ^^
Amazingly? YES.
No, I don't remember the specifics. Yes, I am sorry.
Well, was that monster ever embarassed when it had to face its deity in the afterlife... :p
By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.
Just looked over baleful polymorph again. A Fort save, a Will save, and spell-resistance applies. Guess that means the monk just contributed by not getting disarmed and making one of the BBEG's good spells fizzle.
The fighter is more likely to succumb to a baleful polymorph than the monk. Good of you to point that out.
By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.Just looked over baleful polymorph again. A Fort save, a Will save, and spell-resistance applies. Guess that means the monk just contributed by not getting disarmed and making one of the BBEG's good spells fizzle.
The fighter is more likely to succumb to a baleful polymorph than the monk. Good of you to point that out.
Quite right. Because the villain in your example wasted one round casting True Strike, while four to five PC's were beating the crap out of him. The two actions ( True Strike / Baleful Polymorph ) are therefore equivalent in their chance to suceed in being helpful to the fight.
Quite right. Because the villain in your example wasted one round casting True Strike, while four to five PC's were beating the crap out of him. The two actions ( True Strike / Baleful Polymorph ) are therefore equivalent in their chance to suceed in being helpful to the fight.By the way, has any GM here used a villain with true strike to disarm the fighter of his greatsword? Very unfortunate when that happens.I guess the same GM used Baleful Polymorph to transform the Monk into a newt. Also very unfortunate.Just looked over baleful polymorph again. A Fort save, a Will save, and spell-resistance applies. Guess that means the monk just contributed by not getting disarmed and making one of the BBEG's good spells fizzle.
The fighter is more likely to succumb to a baleful polymorph than the monk. Good of you to point that out.
So a 95% chance of crippling the "main threat" (the high DPR fighter) is a waste of an action? Especially if a mere apprentice can pull it off - henchmen are quite effective at casting level 1 spells after all.
And as I pointed out, the Baleful Polymorph would not be as wasted on the fighter, so the BBEG is welcome to attempt to newtify the fighter as a successful use of his actions. Go BBEG go!
So a 95% chance of crippling the "main threat" (the high DPR fighter) is a waste of an action? Especially if a mere apprentice can pull it off - henchmen are quite effective at casting level 1 spells after all.
In 90% of all scenarios I've seen, not doing anything active during the two to three rounds any BBEG has to live in a typical PF fight, it's a wasted round. True Strike is by far one of the least powerful options available to BBEG's at high levels, I'd rather Maze/Confuse/Dominate the TH-Fighter, so that I don't have to worry that he simply picks up his weapon.
You're moving the goal posts. We were talking about combat manuvers. And what does two handed triping or disarming weapons have to do with anything?
Everything, look it up.
What meleer doesnt require 4 stats? You gonna take Dex or Wis as a dump stat? It's not like the monk has to raise Cha, which helps fighting not at all, or int, which is the same.
Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger is iffy. You realize there are only 3 physical stats, right?
...
You clearly missed my point about spells.
Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger is iffy. You realize there are only 3 physical stats, right?
A typical monk I play, at level 1, with 20 point buy may use something like (and Int and Cha could still be dumped for more power):
Str 16 (14 + 2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10
He has 19 AC (dex 2, wis 2, dodge 1, mage armor potion 4); and +4 in every save. He attacks for +2/+2 (1d6 + 3) (which is 7.5 expected DPR, compared to a 18 strength sword-n-board fighter with weapon focus that deals 7.0 DPR, or 8.0 DPR with power attack).
Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger is iffy. You realize there are only 3 physical stats, right?A typical monk I play, at level 1, with 20 point buy may use something like (and Int and Cha could still be dumped for more power):
Str 16 (14 + 2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10He has 19 AC (dex 2, wis 2, dodge 1, mage armor potion 4); and +4 in every save. He attacks for +2/+2 (1d6 + 3) (which is 7.5 expected DPR, compared to a 18 strength sword-n-board fighter with weapon focus that deals 7.0 DPR, or 8.0 DPR with power attack).
You can't really count on a Mage Armor potion to be that consistent at level 1. Looks like a 15 AC to me.
Sword and board, no.
Greatsword 2d6+4 or maybe even +5. avg dmg = 11, 13 with PA
Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger is iffy. You realize there are only 3 physical stats, right?A typical monk I play, at level 1, with 20 point buy may use something like (and Int and Cha could still be dumped for more power):
Str 16 (14 + 2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10He has 19 AC (dex 2, wis 2, dodge 1, mage armor potion 4); and +4 in every save. He attacks for +2/+2 (1d6 + 3) (which is 7.5 expected DPR, compared to a 18 strength sword-n-board fighter with weapon focus that deals 7.0 DPR, or 8.0 DPR with power attack).
Sword and board fighter will also have a consistent AC of what? 20?
Sword and board fighter will also have a consistent AC of what? 20?
Depends on his level. It'd be ~24 at level 1, but more like ~60 at level 20.
A question which I'd really like to get addressed by the "The Monk is fine!" crowd is this one: Why is it that every single new 3/4 BAB class Paizo has brought out after the core book puts the Monk ( and Rogue, but that is another beef of mine ) to shame? The Alchemist, Inquisitor, Oracle,...
Because simple people want simple fights. If a fighter wants to come up and take away my milkshake, I'll gladly give it to him. He better not fall asleep EVER. I will find him. And gut him. Thinking outside the box and living to fight On. My. Terms. is what makes me a better rogue than the cardboard cut-outs you think we are playing.
Because simple people want simple fights. If a fighter wants to come up and take away my milkshake, I'll gladly give it to him. He better not fall asleep EVER. I will find him. And gut him. Thinking outside the box and living to fight On. My. Terms. is what makes me a better rogue than the cardboard cut-outs you think we are playing.
A question which I'd really like to get addressed by the "The Monk is fine!" crowd is this one: Why is it that every single new 3/4 BAB class Paizo has brought out after the core book puts the Monk ( and Rogue, but that is another beef of mine ) to shame? The Alchemist, Inquisitor, Oracle,...
Uh, okay, dude. Way to make overgeneralized assumptions yourself.
You can't really count on a Mage Armor potion to be that consistent at level 1. Looks like a 15 AC to me.
You might not have a potion when you start the game at 0xp, but if you cant get hold of a level 1 potion after half-a-session of play, then you really have troubles. I've not really had much trouble, going one or two fights without mage armor is fine - you can just hold back. Once you have a stash of 10 or so potions, you're set for the rest of the game.
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Depends on his level. It'd be ~24 at level 1, but more like ~60 at level 20.
Sword and board fighter will also have a consistent AC of what? 20?
Ummm 24 @ 1st...how?
It must be a very specialized build.
Either you take a high AC bonus from your armore, or trade down to gain a higher Dex bonus.
A fighter gets 300 gp max. SO cost wise you buy chain, but that gives a +6(armor)+2(dex)+2(shield)= 20.
You can spend much more, to the point of spending most or your cash and get an armor that will squeeze out and extra +1 AC, but you need a better dex bonus. This is starting to put yourself in a MAD style situation.
Maybe you took Dodge. So at best you have a 22...
But you are 2 more and you say that is basically average.
Show me how.
Depends on his level. It'd be ~24 at level 1, but more like ~60 at level 20.
Sword and board fighter will also have a consistent AC of what? 20?Ummm 24 @ 1st...how?
It must be a very specialized build.
Either you take a high AC bonus from your armore, or trade down to gain a higher Dex bonus.
A fighter gets 300 gp max. SO cost wise you buy chain, but that gives a +6(armor)+2(dex)+2(shield)= 20.
You can spend much more, to the point of spending most or your cash and get an armor that will squeeze out and extra +1 AC, but you need a better dex bonus. This is starting to put yourself in a MAD style situation.
Maybe you took Dodge. So at best you have a 22...
But you are 2 more and you say that is basically average.
Show me how.
First, I never said average. Another poster did. Second, the tilda mark (~) next to the number means "approximately." If you got within 2 points, that counts as "approximate."
In any case, I was thinking full plate (can be crafted for a 1/3 of its normal price or gained later while still 1st level), heavy shield, 12-13 Dexterity, Dodge, and Shield Focus.
10 base
09 full plate
03 heavy shield with Shield Focus
01 Dodge
01 Dex
24 total
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First, I never said average. Another poster did. Second, the tilda mark (~) next to the number means "approximately." If you got within 2 points, that counts as "approximate."
In any case, I was thinking full plate (can be crafted for a 1/3 of its normal price or gained later while still 1st level), heavy shield, 12-13 Dexterity, Dodge, and Shield Focus.
10 base
09 full plate
03 heavy shield with Shield Focus
01 Dodge
01 Dex
24 total
How did you get 500+ gp to start? Rich Parents?
Hope you didn't dump Int since the craft DC is 19, at 1st with no int bonus you are +4, take 10, craft check of 14...and you ruined it and have to pay 1/2 cost again. I think we see where this is going...
1500 is your share during 1st level...quite a difference from the WBL chart.
Yeah. You are better with your ~...
i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
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i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
I have never seen it except by Dm fiat...
I have never seen it except by Dm fiat...i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
these prematurely given items are most common in adventure paths and modules designed to accomodate multiple levels of advancement.
most of the time, they are predetermined and rarely are they truly desirable items. and it's usually not the whole party that has these. just a handful of members.
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I have never seen it except by Dm fiat...i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
these prematurely given items are most common in adventure paths and modules designed to accomodate multiple levels of advancement.
most of the time, they are predetermined and rarely are they truly desirable items. and it's usually not the whole party that has these. just a handful of members.
Which APs?
Which APs?I have never seen it except by Dm fiat...i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
these prematurely given items are most common in adventure paths and modules designed to accomodate multiple levels of advancement.
most of the time, they are predetermined and rarely are they truly desirable items. and it's usually not the whole party that has these. just a handful of members.
i guess it was DM Fiat after all. i found it extremely convenient that Nualia had a mithril shirt, a fully charged wand of lesser vigor, and a +1 cold iron scimitar stashed in a box in her bedroom when my aasimaar cleric of sarenrae was drastically underperforming. it was her stashed mementos that lead to her undoing.
I have never seen it except by Dm fiat...i have even experienced 1st level PCs walking around with premature access to a lot of things greater than thier wealth by level could afford. when you play with published modules and adventure paths, a lot of them tend to ignore the 'straightjacket' called the wealth by level chart.
i have seen 1st level fighters wearing full plate, i have seen 1st level rogues with mithril chain shirts, i have seen 1st level PCs rocking +1 weapons. this is actually a more frequent occurence than one would realize.
and how do you get to the next level on the wealth chart without exceeding your current allotment?
Just to play Devil's advocate:
Fair nuff...can't argue that one...:)
Just to play Devil's advocate:
We Be Goblin's
That's the only one I can think of though. ;P
And it is well deserved...you are Goblins after all..you need all the help you can get.That's the only one I can think of though. ;PFair nuff...can't argue that one...:)
Just to play Devil's advocate:
We Be Goblin's
I suppose that when I played through the SCAP our party's wealth was well above the chart too, although I can't comment as to whether or not that was due to the DM or the path as written. However I think with how much of treasure was hidden or on enemies that had teleportation capabilities, I believe that it was intended that not all potential treasure was to be collected by every party.