One, not everybody at the gaming table plays MMOs, so use of terminology derived from there is exclusionary and makes the experience less enjoyable for those that don't play MMOs.
Terminology is only exclusionary if it is used in an exclusionary manner. In most cases where MMO (or whatever) lingo appears in a tabletop game, it's because that lingo accurately describes the scenario in fewer words (it's easier to say "kite" than "run around in circles while the bad guy chases you").
A good rule of thumb: If someone uses a term you're not familiar with, and if you ask them what it means and they tell you, it's not exclusionary in any way whatsoever.
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All that's needed for effective communication is an understanding of the idea being expressed by the other person. If you know what somebody means when they say "tank" but refuse to acknowledge it, you are the barrier to effective communication.
That's a great idea! I'm going to be as rude as I possibly can, and then blame people for not acknowledging the things that I arrogantly tell them to do because they are clearly the barrier to communication! Obviously, it can't possibly be me. I'm saying words that we all understand. They're just rude and obnoxious, that's all. Thanks for telling me how to communicate more effectively.
[/sarcasm]Oh wait. That doesn't work.
Part of communication is being responsive to what other people want. If people want you to avoid cussing, you probably should avoid cussing. If your fellows like using MMO terminology, you should learn that. If they don't, you should avoid it.
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Terminology is only exclusionary if it is used in an exclusionary manner. In most cases where MMO (or whatever) lingo appears in a tabletop game, it's because that lingo accurately describes the scenario in fewer words (it's easier to say "kite" than "run around in circles while the bad guy chases you").
But... why is the bad guy chasing you in circles in the first place? There's a whole set of assumptions here that can't get explained, but are common to MMO experiences.
Terminology is only exclusionary if it is used in an exclusionary manner. In most cases where MMO (or whatever) lingo appears in a tabletop game, it's because that lingo accurately describes the scenario in fewer words (it's easier to say "kite" than "run around in circles while the bad guy chases you").But... why is the bad guy chasing you in circles in the first place?
Because he wants to hit you.
Let's not pretend that we're having a difficult time understanding what it means to kite.
I think the term "toon" is in reference to the graphical representation of an avatar for a person's character in an MMO or other video game.
It's now become synonymous with the word character as opposed to the more technicly accurate "avatar of my character".
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But... why is the bad guy chasing you in circles in the first place?Because he wants to hit you.
Let's not pretend that we're having a difficult time understanding what it means to kite.
So? Why is he running around in circles? Why doesn't he realize that he can do something more effective like pull out a bow and shoot you?
Or publicly assassinate your character, now that you're proven to be a coward?Or look around to see what trap you're trying to set up?
Or chug a potion of haste?
Or... yeah. Why is he just chasing like an idiot?
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It drives me insane when i hear a player of mine tell the fighter to "kite" the BBEG, or when he says he is going to make a tank. Or when the wizard says that he wants to be good at cc (crowd control). I have told them to drop the terminology or find another GM. They have, thanfully stopped using it. With small relapses.
I don't care how much wow a week you play. I don't care how imprinted that terminology in your brain is. I don't care how cool it sounds to you. Use it at my table and you will be asked to either shut up or leave.
One of the main reasons i rarely ask consummate MMO players to join my table. It annoys me to no end.
Oh, yeah.
I used to hate on people, too, for using widely-understood and applicable terminology to refer to things that I held near and dear and would call something else.
Then I grew up.
Well, i haven't...and will not. I like being like this.
@lalallaalal: You are correct. I am setting it.
But... why is the bad guy chasing you in circles in the first place?Because he wants to hit you.
Let's not pretend that we're having a difficult time understanding what it means to kite.So? Why is he running around in circles? Why doesn't he realize that he can do something more effective like pull out a bow and shoot you?
Or publicly assassinate your character, now that you're proven to be a coward?
Or look around to see what trap you're trying to set up?
Or chug a potion of haste?
Or... yeah. Why is he just chasing like an idiot?
No one is saying that Kiting is a good tactic in an RPG. People are saying that when the term is used you know what it means, or it can be easily explained to you.
And I have seen situations where Kiting is a valid tactic in an RPG. I have seen multiple rogues working in unison to kite guards away from doors to allow others to sneak through. You can find it in movies, and I have even seen it happen in real life.
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What is it with some of you guys today? Is there something in the water?
So? Why is he running around in circles? Why doesn't he realize that he can do something more effective like pull out a bow and shoot you?
This has nothing to do with a discussion of whether the term "kite" is exclusionary.
Or publicly assassinate your character, now that you're proven to be a coward?
Nor this.
Or look around to see what trap you're trying to set up?
Nor this.
Or chug a potion of haste?
Nor this.
Or... yeah. Why is he just chasing like an idiot?
Nor this.
Don't be difficult.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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"Kiting" is exclusionary because it assumes the bad guy is going to charge after your character unintelligently, ignoring any other threats to himself.
I'm not sure I understand how "statement is unhelpful/inapplicable" equals "statement is exclusionary".
Relax everybody, it's just gaming. Please post civilly to each other.
That stuff would work a lot more if you didn't have an angry face while posting this.
"Kiting" is exclusionary because it assumes the bad guy is going to charge after your character unintelligently, ignoring any other threats to himself.
People who don't play computer games may not get this idea. At all.
Until you tell them: "Kiting means running while the bad guy chases you."
That's all they need to know. That's what kiting means. And that's what will be meant if kiting is used in a tabletop game. A history lesson is not required.
It's not exclusionary language if you explain it when asked. You know what we call things that people don't understand until someone explains what they mean?
Words.
Well, if you're a bandit, who would you rather attack...a guy so covered in steel that only his eyes are showing, brandishing a sword and a shield the size of a door, or a guy dressed in robes who just fried two of your comrades?
Is this a trick question? We're talking about some bandit, which to me calls to mind a guy in leather with an oversized knife hoping for easy money, and then suddenly there's this guy who carries more than his own weight in steel, and another guy who can fry people just by wanting them to burn. You left out C) cry like a little girl and run like hell. D) cry like a little girl and beg for mercy. E) Soil himself and F) all of the above.
As for mindless mosnters, of course they will keep attacking their initial target, no matter how unhittable it proves...bu i haven't used any golems yet...just vermin.
I don't know. They could actually have an aggro-like system, being mindless constructs who only pretend to think. They could have a simple set of instruction: "Kill the target who damaged you the most."
@ Liz: Dunno...stopped considering it "just" gaming a long time ago. I tend to take things that i devote several hours of my time a week seriously.
Yeah.
In fact, they say that I once killed a guy and buried him in the woods because he didn't bother to show up for a game, we had to cancel (after some had to drive 100km to get to the game), and when we asked him why he didn't show up, he said "Relax, it's just a game!"
But they acquitted me of all charges, so that officially never happened.
Relax everybody, it's just gaming. Please post civilly to each other.That stuff would work a lot more if you didn't have an angry face while posting this.
The one I wanted wasn't available, unfortunately.
All that's needed for effective communication is an understanding of the idea being expressed by the other person. If you know what somebody means when they say "tank" but refuse to acknowledge it, you are the barrier to effective communication.
So when I say someone should make a tank, and he brings a pitiful loser as his character who might have a nice AC and many HP, but would need half an hour (in-game time) to kill a goblin commoner - who's fault is that? His for misinterpreting the term tank (which in a warlike context means heavily armed and armoured vehicle) or me for not conforming to his definitions?
Is this like calling shotgun? The person who can shout "TANK" first gets to define it?
In general, it seems clear that using jargon out of its intended field (and MMO jargon is not intended for anything except MMOs) is a barrier to effective communication, and should be avoided.
Hey. Since you asked, I will correct what you wrote. As usual, it's not meant to be condescending, but to teach.
Since English isn't my native language, either, I might miss things, but I'll give it my best shot.
No i just refuse to comunicate in an semi-literal fashion.
That should be:
"No, I just refuse to communicate in a semi-literal fashion. "
It was sort of funny that your complaint about a "relaxed attitude towards proper language" had errors, but I'd guess that those were honest mistakes, instead of sloppiness born from indifference.
And no, I'm not being condescending. I mean all that.
The one I wanted wasn't available, unfortunately.Relax everybody, it's just gaming. Please post civilly to each other.That stuff would work a lot more if you didn't have an angry face while posting this.
Oh, come on, you have connections. And you're a gninja. You say you can't get the avatar that you want?
Oh, come on, you have connections. And you're a gninja. You say you can't get the avatar that you want?The one I wanted wasn't available, unfortunately.Relax everybody, it's just gaming. Please post civilly to each other.That stuff would work a lot more if you didn't have an angry face while posting this.
Gninjas know when the time is right to strike. I'm currently in the rafters, studying my opponent.
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Is the Queen understanding what is being said? Than the idea has been communicated effectively. Does she know what's being said but is refusing to acknowledge it? Than she is refusing to communicate effectively. Does she have no idea what is being said? Than effective communication has not been achieved.
Is the last part of what was said drowned out by the queen shouting "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!"?
Then someone will learn a valuable, if fatal lesson: "How" is as important as "what", sometimes more so.
"Kiting" is exclusionary because it assumes the bad guy is going to charge after your character unintelligently, ignoring any other threats to himself.
People who don't play computer games may not get this idea. At all.
Kiting? The ridiculousness of this concept is staggering.
Gninjas know when the time is right to strike. I'm currently in the rafters, studying my opponent.Oh, come on, you have connections. And you're a gninja. You say you can't get the avatar that you want?The one I wanted wasn't available, unfortunately.Relax everybody, it's just gaming. Please post civilly to each other.That stuff would work a lot more if you didn't have an angry face while posting this.
Oh, you're good. I didn't even notice the rafters!
Get your Chocolate out of my Pennut butter... You are telling me how to speak to be in your game. Sure I will keep it clean if if childeren are a round. But other than that I will speake how every I want. If that offends you then sorry... But I would not want to be in that game anyway. I realy like The Barbies vs GI Joe in early part of the thread.
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Is the Queen understanding what is being said? Than the idea has been communicated effectively. Does she know what's being said but is refusing to acknowledge it? Than she is refusing to communicate effectively. Does she have no idea what is being said? Than effective communication has not been achieved.Is the last part of what was said drowned out by the queen shouting "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!"?
Then someone will learn a valuable, if fatal lesson: "How" is as important as "what", sometimes more so.
"How" is important when it comes to "why" you're saying "what" you're saying. There are many ways to say "the meatloaf tastes good". The queen know's "what" is being said but doesn't like "how" it is being presented. The idea that "the meatloaf is good" was communicated effectively.
My question is why is a queen beheading people for expressing how much they like the food?
Because they are expressing it in a bad, rude manner, not fitting for the place and the time? You just don't say f**k in front of a queen during a formal dinner. Nowdays, they are just going to throw you out, but any ruler worth his salt a mere 150 years ago would have you killed for that insult.
Because they are expressing it in a bad, rude manner, not fitting for the place and the time?
Hama, using MMO terminology to describe what's going on in your tabletop game isn't rude. Kicking a player out of your game for using it, however, is.
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Because they are expressing it in a bad, rude manner, not fitting for the place and the time?Hama, using MMO terminology to describe what's going on in your tabletop game isn't rude. Kicking a player out of your game for using it, however, is.
Of course it is. But i never said that a player who uses mmo terminology is rude, just annoying and not considerate of the game he is playing. However saying f**k in front o the queen is very rude.
Until you tell them: "Kiting means running while the bad guy chases you."
I would have thought that term was "fleeing".
If the process doesn't involve any sort of floating (in the air like a real kite or check kiting), I can't see it as kiting. Bizarre.
I would have thought that term was "fleeing".
Until you tell them: "Kiting means running while the bad guy chases you."
Kiting is done purposefully. Fleeing is usually a last resort.
Get your Chocolate out of my Pennut butter... You are telling me how to speak to be in your game. Sure I will keep it clean if if childeren are a round. But other than that I will speake how every I want. If that offends you then sorry... But I would not want to be in that game anyway. I realy like The Barbies vs GI Joe in early part of the thread.
The problem though is that sometimes people have to speak a certain way and avoid other terminology. Jargon from one circle doesn't necessarily jibe with jargon from another. My prior example of the use of the word "mob" highlights that problem. If a term has a prior use in game terms, then using it otherwise can cause confusion.
I've had problems with players using "ready" and "delay" interchangeably, as if they mean the same thing, but in Pathfinder, they're not synonymous. So that means the player has to learn the terminology.
Aside from that, there should be a certain amount of tolerance for the mannerisms of different individuals.
Until you tell them: "Kiting means running while the bad guy chases you."I would have thought that term was "fleeing".
I always preferred the term "monster baiting".
I always preferred the term "monster baiting".
Until you tell them: "Kiting means running while the bad guy chases you."I would have thought that term was "fleeing".
"Monster baiting" is like kiting, but with a halfling.
The term MOB, meaning 'Mobile Object' goes back to 1978.
1978.
Lets look at that year again...
1978.
To say that 'mob' as a term is new to the gaming table is just plain wrong, like 'Tank', the term has been around forever.
1978.
The term MOB, meaning 'Mobile Object' goes back to 1978.
1978.
Lets look at that year again...
1978.
I know, they just don't make MMOs like they used to. One of these days the toolkit for making your own MMO will finally come out and we can start making custom worlds to play in again.
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I just can't wrap my head around being this rigid about gaming terms, especially when everyone understands what's being said (or could with five seconds of explanation). I mean, really, how can you let something like the word "mob" ruin your gaming group? It's absurd.
Because mob implies that the monster you put against your players will behave in an MMO fashion. And if your players use MMO terminology a lot, they will soon start treating the game as an MMO. And the game is not an MMO, it is insulting to compare any tabletop RPG with an MMO, even the 4th edition, although my opinion on that has been stated in a now locked thread.
The term MOB predates MMO usage, and has been in Tabletop gaming parlance since at least the early 1980's that I am aware of.
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I just can't wrap my head around being this rigid about gaming terms, especially when everyone understands what's being said (or could with five seconds of explanation). I mean, really, how can you let something like the word "mob" ruin your gaming group? It's absurd.Because mob implies that the monster you put against your players will behave in an MMO fashion. And if your players use MMO terminology a lot, they will soon start treating the game as an MMO. And the game is not an MMO, it is insulting to compare any tabletop RPG with an MMO, even the 4th edition, although my opinion on that has been stated in a now locked thread.
That is still absurd. If you think habitual use of a word can ruin your entire gaming experience, you must not have a very strong game to begin with. I've played with people outside of my normal group who would refer to monsters as mobs. It was strange because it wasn't what I was used to, but I kept saying goblin, they kept saying mob, and eventually the two of us were using both terms interchangeably because we knew what they meant. And it never turned the game into an MMO. Seriously, something as minute as jargon is not going to change the game a bit.
it is insulting to compare any tabletop RPG with an MMO,
Good lord.
Okay, so using MMO terms turns your players into MMO players. And MMO players in a tabletop game are bad, because tabletop games are so much better than an MMO that to even compare the two is an insult to tabletop games? And yet you have no problem comparing 4e to an MMO.
Do I understand you correctly?
It just annoys me...and it doesn't ruin my games. I do not like when players refer to anything from my games with MMO terms. That is all. They should be kept separate.
So if it doesn't ruin your games, but rather simply annoys you, what if it annoyed one of your players that you're suddenly placing restrictions on what terms they can and cannot use? Would you balance your annoyance against theirs? Or would you decide that you don't want to play with someone who gets annoyed over whether or not someone is able to use certain terms? If so, would you play at your own table?
But thats going to be hard to do, because Tabletop gaming terms and MUD terms have been mixed since 1stED. MUD's might have evolved into MMO's but the principle still applies.
It's just now the terms are now more widely used.
MOB - 1978.
(They have ALWAYS pretty much been there though)
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I guess we'll just have to call it a difference of opinion and leave it as such, because I still don't get it. The ability to accept other people's play styles and remain fluid with your own is an important part of having fun in PPRPGs. I get the impression from threads like this one that a lot of people get distracted from that, which is a shame because it's the central goal of any game (having fun, that is). I'll continue to use Pathfinder as an outlet to relax, socialize, and enjoy myself, and you can use it for... whatever you call this tense, unfriendly experience you seem to have.
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It just annoys me...and it doesn't ruin my games. I do not like when players refer to anything from my games with MMO terms. That is all. They should be kept separate.So if it doesn't ruin your games, but rather simply annoys you, what if it annoyed one of your players that you're suddenly placing restrictions on what terms they can and cannot use? Would you balance your annoyance against theirs? Or would you decide that you don't want to play with someone who gets annoyed over whether or not someone is able to use certain terms? If so, would you play at your own table?
They can walk away if they don't like it. If i am the GM then that is the restriction they have to get used to. If i am playing at somebody else's table, i will most certainly not be thrilled by it, but hey. if they allow it, it's their business.
Most of my players play MMOs. One of them plays them really much.
I said that 4ht edition was made with MMO players in mind, and that it was designed accordingly. To draw in an MMO crowd. However, it is still a tabletop RPG, and thus uncomparably better then any MMO ever published.
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I guess we'll just have to call it a difference of opinion and leave it as such, because I still don't get it. The ability to accept other people's play styles and remain fluid with your own is an important part of having fun in PPRPGs. I get the impression from threads like this one that a lot of people get distracted from that, which is a shame because it's the central goal of any game (having fun, that is). I'll continue to use Pathfinder as an outlet to relax, socialize, and enjoy myself, and you can use it for... whatever you call this tense, unfriendly experience you seem to have.
I don't know where did you get that idea. My games are always fun, and everybody wishes that we could play more often. However, there are some stuff i will not have at my table, using MMO terminology being one of them. I will always say these things beforehand however and will warn all players about no-nos.
Play style is one thing. Terminology completely another.