|
It drives me insane when i hear a player of mine tell the fighter to "kite" the BBEG, or when he says he is going to make a tank. Or when the wizard says that he wants to be good at cc (crowd control). I have told them to drop the terminology or find another GM. They have, thanfully stopped using it. With small relapses.
I don't care how much wow a week you play. I don't care how imprinted that terminology in your brain is. I don't care how cool it sounds to you. Use it at my table and you will be asked to either shut up or leave.
One of the main reasons i rarely ask consummate MMO players to join my table. It annoys me to no end.
|
I have never actually run into this problem, but, I don't think it would bother me too much. Because when you really break down each (table-top and MMO) both have a lot of similarities. Each member of the adventuring party has a role to fill. Not unlike each member of a raid party.
I'd actually like to see more table-top terms intrude on the MMO world, personally.
I don't really have too much problem with the terminology. I'm not a big MMO player myself, but I've dabbled, and several people at my table are big players, so I'm familiar with the terminology and can translate it easily into pen and paper RPG terms. One other guy at the table hates it, though, and always asks folks to cut it out. Kind of a keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter type of thing.
What did use to bug me was when several of my players were very active in the same guild in WOW and we would lose lots of game time each week to them recapping the previous night's exploits. That was wasting my time and I resented it. They stopped doing that after the newness wore off, fortunately.
Another issue I would potentially have is if designers or people want to recreate the MMO experience at the gaming table, and bring those expectations of what game play should be like. If I want to play an MMO I will. I'd rather keep it out of my pen and paper RPG, for the most part. I find them to be very different gaming experiences and would prefer to keep them that way. Example - the UM Antagonize feat, which I see absolutely no place for in a pen and paper game with a real live DM.
Umm, what is the 'correct' terminology?
Did you get upset the first time people started using words like Thac0? What about Gish? there has been a constant evolution of terms over time that came from a myriad of sources...how are these ones worse than all the other meme's etc?
|
I understand what you mean.
Party bow Rgr who dumped cha and int for dex and str announces he's about to pop a 40-ft radius entagle right on the enemy caster, he's got the highest init. The party sorc (who's next) casts animate rope to get the one baddy outside the aoe of the entangle. The cleric then casts good ol' cause fear on the meanest looking guy in the entagle, knowing that moving just makes it worse; some fun kite time for the rgr ensues...
That last part destroys my sense of immersion...
That last part destroys my sense of immersion...
*chuckle*
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, "tank"--as in "can you be the party tank?"--is a word I heard at LEAST a decade before MMOs ever existed... so maybe you ought to ask your MMOers to stop using RPG terminology when they play their MMOs too.
|
In all fairness, I heard 'Tank' used long before anyone I know played MMORPGs, when referring to the big dude/lady with all the hit points.
Many MMO tactics are simplistic and based on the idea that the opponent is a dumb AI. It will make your job easier for an evening or two, and then they'll be forced to wake up and realize tabletop RPGs can't be won with tank & spank strategies.
Then again, fair warning, I'm beginning to embrace the "GM as antagonist" play style.
Edit: Ninja'd by DeathQuaker.
I have a special place of hate in my heart for 'toon' though. It really sounds like something only a 'bro' who thinks elves and magic are for sissies and basement dwellers would say.
Umm, what is the 'correct' terminology?
Did you get upset the first time people started using words like Thac0? What about Gish? there has been a constant evolution of terms over time that came from a myriad of sources...how are these ones worse than all the other meme's etc?
Two issues.
One, not everybody at the gaming table plays MMOs, so use of terminology derived from there is exclusionary and makes the experience less enjoyable for those that don't play MMOs.
Two, sometimes the concepts behind the terminology just don't apply. Example - sometimes people on this board have complained that fighters can't effectively "tank" in PF/D&D. Of course they can't, "tanking" is a term derived from the mechanics of certain MMOs that are not (and should not be) replicated in PF/D&D. My fear, though, is that if more and more players complain about stuff like this, the developers will listen and change the game to accomodate their wishes, which would be a mistake, IMHO.
Well, "tank"--as in "can you be the party tank?"--is a word I heard at LEAST a decade before MMOs ever existed... so maybe you ought to ask your MMOers to stop using RPG terminology when they play their MMOs too.
Fair enough. I did, too. But the meaning of it in an MMO is somewhat different, and refers to the specific tactics developed for combatting as FP says, the fairly dumb AI of MMOs. When it is used nowadays, that is more often what is meant by it.
Umm, what is the 'correct' terminology?
Things like fighter, mind-affecting effects, and so on.
Did you get upset the first time people started using words like Thac0?
If anyone told me about his THAC0 in his PF game, I'd ask him what he has just taken and if there is anything left.
how are these ones worse than all the other meme's etc?
The other meme's what? :P
Two issues.One, not everybody at the gaming table plays MMOs, so use of terminology derived from there is exclusionary and makes the experience less enjoyable for those that don't play MMOs.
To which I would reply that not every table uses the same terminology, or 'jargon', so...
At the end of the day, a lot of the words in MMO's were lifted from the Tabletop RPG community that served as their inspiration - words like 'tank' have been kicking around since at least the late 80's as far as I am aware, which predated most MUD's, let alone MMO's. Meatshield is also a popular term for your frontline melee.
Whilst I see where you are coming from, I think the resistance to the fluid nature of language and the evolution of terms will simply serve to have outdated and outmoded anachronistic language at your table, and in turn exclude new players from wanting to join.
Your 'inclusive' policy is actually quite exclusionary.
Also, no new players = dead hobby.
Embrace the change, bring them in, show them the light - keep the big picture in mind Brother.
|
|
I don't know. Sometimes I kind of wish that there WERE more MMO-type mechanics in PF. What really is keeping the BBEG's attention focused on the fighter? Nothing if that wizard at the back of the party keeps throwing his biggest spells at him. And how exactly does the fighter keep the BBEG's back turned to the party's rogue? He can't. If I were a BBEG (and considering my position BEHIND the screen I am) there is no way that I would allow that fighter to control my movements.
But, playing devil's advocate, it could be very frustrating to be that fighter that can't ever get a full round action on a smart, tactic using BBEG.
Well, "tank"--as in "can you be the party tank?"--is a word I heard at LEAST a decade before MMOs ever existed... so maybe you ought to ask your MMOers to stop using RPG terminology when they play their MMOs too.Fair enough. I did, too. But the meaning of it in an MMO is somewhat different, and refers to the specific tactics developed for combatting as FP says, the fairly dumb AI of MMOs. When it is used nowadays, that is more often what is meant by it.
The point I am getting at is there are tabletop RPGers who became MMOers and vice versa. Each group has a lot of favorite idiomatic expressions, and the terms are going to cross pollinate like mad because the populations are cross pollinated. And indeed, tabletop RPGs are older, so if you want to blame anyone for making MMOs a slangy environment, you can probably look to the tabletop RPGers who joined MMOs early on as key influences on that subculture. And it's absolutely nonsensical to ask people to stop using words that in part probably originated from your own gaming subculture (tabletop gaming).
It's one thing if someone is using words other people don't understand and expecting them to just catch on (for example, if a Pathfinder newb walks into a conversation about designing a monk, and sees someone saying, "You just can't do a CMB build because the monk is MAD and his to-hit gets nerfed even with the boost at 3rd level," they wouldn't understand half of that sentence--and would likely be turned off from the game). If the request is, "Please do not use slang I don't understand" that's fine and dandy, because what you're asking people to do is make sure the group can communicate effectively.
But if the request is, "I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to ask you to stop using those words because I don't like the hobby you learned it from even though that hobby owes its origins to my hobby, just because I'm easily irritated today--" I am sorry, but that is both picking at split ends and a little bit petty to boot. I am NOT saying you were saying those things, but that is the general gist I am getting from this thread. My apologies to anyone who feels offended by this, but I think a little broader perspective needs to be thrown onto the matter.
(And by the way--I have never played an MMO in my life. But I've got nothing against them nor their players.)
|
|
And roles in RPGs are just plain moronic. "Everybody's got a role!" yeah, right up until the time you discover that John or Bob or Gary isn't going to be able to make it to the game that night (or is low in hit points/spells/whatever) - then somebody else's character (which, allegedly, is designed for a completely different role) is going to have to fill that missing role. At that point, you realize that pigeon-holing classes into roles is just plain dumb.
That happens in any collaborative activity, because most functional teams have specialists - it's more efficient, and it makes people feel important if they are unique and needed.
Two issues.One, not everybody at the gaming table plays MMOs, so use of terminology derived from there is exclusionary and makes the experience less enjoyable for those that don't play MMOs.
To which I would reply that not every table uses the same terminology, or 'jargon', so...
At the end of the day, a lot of the words in MMO's were lifted from the Tabletop RPG community that served as their inspiration - words like 'tank' have been kicking around since at least the late 80's as far as I am aware, which predated most MUD's, let alone MMO's. Meatshield is also a popular term for your frontline melee.
Whilst I see where you are coming from, I think the resistance to the fluid nature of language and the evolution of terms will simply serve to have outdated and outmoded anachronistic language at your table, and in turn exclude new players from wanting to join.
Your 'inclusive' policy is actually quite exclusionary.
Also, no new players = dead hobby.
Embrace the change, bring them in, show them the light - keep the big picture in mind Brother.
I understand your point, but don't agree. Pen and paper RPGs already have their own terminology that everyone at the table (since they are playing a pen and paper RPG and assuming they aren't newbies) already knows. Why not use that instead of jargon that not everyone knows or cares to know?
I agree that the language used in the game will inevitably evolve with new influences and the influences between pen and paper games and MMOs are impossible to miss, going in both directions. The process of evolution will determine which terms eventually enter into common usage and which don't. However, not every new term is good and useful. Evolution, as you know, had a lot of wrong turns and dead ends, as well.
And I would have no problem with new players coming to the table and using those terms, or terms they had picked up from video games, as that's what they know. Eventually, however, I would expect them to understand the significant differences between MMO and pen and paper RPGs, and learn the new (to them) terminology.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I understand your point, but don't agree. Pen and paper RPGs already have their own terminology that everyone at the table (since they are playing a pen and paper RPG and assuming they aren't newbies) already knows. Why not use that instead of jargon that not everyone knows or cares to know?
Sort of.
I came over from 2ED, missed 3RD ed altogether, and arrived at a gaming table with a few other dinosaurs to try out this whole Pathfinder D&D gig with some 3rd ed guys, and found there was a fair bit of learning for us to do; the language and terminology was a bit different to what we were used to... I couldn't find my THAC0 anywhere! Where were my Spheres for my Cleric? PrC - you mean 'Kit' right? Why are you people calling my Thief a Rogue?
And thats assuming they haven't brought across terms from other RPG's they play. Other RPG's generate a significant pile of terms slang and jargon.
So I also get where you are coming from, but a short 'Huh, whats a Healbot?' usually solves my problem.
Edit:
Oh yes "CMB" and "CMD" - "CMD? huh? My character isn't a computer! Why does he need a CMD.EXE?"
Well, "tank"--as in "can you be the party tank?"--is a word I heard at LEAST a decade before MMOs ever existed... so maybe you ought to ask your MMOers to stop using RPG terminology when they play their MMOs too.Fair enough. I did, too. But the meaning of it in an MMO is somewhat different, and refers to the specific tactics developed for combatting as FP says, the fairly dumb AI of MMOs. When it is used nowadays, that is more often what is meant by it.The point I am getting at is there are tabletop RPGers who became MMOers and vice versa. Each group has a lot of favorite idiomatic expressions, and the terms are going to cross pollinate like mad because the populations are cross pollinated. And indeed, tabletop RPGs are older, so if you want to blame anyone for making MMOs a slangy environment, you can probably look to the tabletop RPGers who joined MMOs early on as key influences on that subculture. And it's absolutely nonsensical to ask people to stop using words that in part probably originated from your own gaming subculture (tabletop gaming).
It's one thing if someone is using words other people don't understand and expecting them to just catch on (for example, if a Pathfinder newb walks into a conversation about designing a monk, and sees someone saying, "You just can't do a CMB build because the monk is MAD and his to-hit gets nerfed even with the boost at 3rd level," they wouldn't understand half of that sentence--and would likely be turned off from the game). If the request is, "Please do not use slang I don't understand" that's fine and dandy, because what you're asking people to do is make sure the group can communicate effectively.
But if the request is, "I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to ask you to stop using those words because I don't like the hobby you learned it from even though that hobby owes its origins to my hobby, just because I'm easily irritated today--" I am sorry, but that is both...
I think your second para is where I am largely coming from, rather than a reflex reaction against MMO terminology, along with the fact that not all MMO terminology is really applicable to pen and paper games.
My group contains 4 players who avidly play MMOs, 1 who occasionally plays them (me), and 3 who have no interest in them and have never played them. Curiously, the one player who objects most to MMO terminology is one of the avid MMO players. In his mind, the two genres offer completely different gaming experiences and he wants to keep them that way. My greater concern is for the three players who don't play MMOs and are unlikely to in the near future. They sometimes get lost when the MMOers get deep into jargon, and that's not good or necessary, in my opinion.
|
|
Eventually, however, I would expect them to understand the significant differences between MMO and pen and paper RPGs, and learn the new (to them) terminology.
For one thing, MMO engines are ran by computer logic. RPGs, on the other hand, are a collaborative, dramatic storytelling event.
This argument simply doesn't stand the test of time. You're saying that tabltop RPGs vs computer RPGs is apples and oranges. Specifically you are saying that computer games run on computer-run algorithms while table-top games run on fairy dust and unicorn tears.
Our hobby started as war games, grew into a 'role playing game', and was adapted to computers games.
Ever looked at the Neverwinter Night's(2002) manual?
|
|
It does kind of bother me that this is a common perception: MMOs are the death of the hobby, they will steal away our players and chain them to machines and they will forget about story and roleplaying forever.
I'm pretty sure people said the same stuff about MTG, and now most staunchly anti-MMO players I talk to think MTG is awesome, because it doesn't involve a computer, an AI, or the internet.
MMO players should be our allies against people who think pretending to be an elf is stupid. I know that some of those people play MMOs entirely, but anyone who is willing to belly up to the table and play a P&P RPG is going in the right direction.
Anyone with stronger anti-MMO opinions than I wish to chime in and give me a good perspective from the other side?
|
|
The question you mean to be asking is "what keeps the BBEG focused on one character as oppossed to another?" After all, perhaps the fighter is low on hit points and the wizard just cast Transformation. Are you familiar with the concept of attacks of opportunity?
I absolutely do understand attacks of opportunity and how best to exploit them (Lord knows I've done it to enough hapless PC's over the years). Along with that comes a good working knowledge of how best to avoid them as well. Something that some of my players have yet to master. :(
'Munchkin'
'Optimiser'
'Build'
'MAD'
'CoDzilla'
All terms I learnt upon picking up PF.
The only terminology used by MMO players that irks me is the usevof the term MOB to refer to monsters. mainly because as someone who has played MuD I know what it means. ALOT of other MMO terminology's actually applicable I'n tabletop hames they just don't work well ( etc kite ).
actually I think if someone referee to an animated objectvas a MOB it may qualify ascreally bad nerd humor that is about it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Raise this point with me again when and if computer software can ever pass the Turing test. As long as it can't, there will be a fundamental difference between RPGs and MMOs.
I've met a ton of roleplayers that would struggle to pass that test :p
However calling a character a "toon" winds me up as does referring to character progression as a "build"
You beat me to it; I have an irrational hatred of the word "toon" to mean "PC" rather than "RPG by Greg Costikyan".
EDIT: I'm not crazy about "mobs" either, but I don't hear it as often.
|
|
(it obscures the differences between MMO and RPG) and, then, encourages a certain playstyle (simplistic tactics becomes the point of the game) which the op doesn't want at his table
Then help your players learn tactics. Don't put training wheels on your game. Don't lower the game to their level. Encourage and help them come up to yours.
I can forgive being irritated by trans-hobby lingo... but the obvious disdain for these 'more simple' people is really hurting your argument.
And you can keep insisting the hobbies are night and day different, that doesn't make it any more true.
I think your second para is where I am largely coming from, rather than a reflex reaction against MMO terminology, along with the fact that not all MMO terminology is really applicable to pen and paper games.
My group contains 4 players who avidly play MMOs, 1 who occasionally plays them (me), and 3 who have no interest in them and have never played them. Curiously, the one player who objects most to MMO terminology is one of the avid MMO players. In his mind, the two genres offer completely different gaming experiences and he wants to keep them that way. My greater concern is for the three players who don't play MMOs and are unlikely to in the near future. They sometimes get lost when the MMOers get deep into jargon, and that's not good or necessary, in my opinion.
I think in that case it's a matter of asking people to be clear on what they are talking about. In my group, we have a phrase, "Speaking trout"--i.e., you could just be repeating the word "trout" over and over again and it would make as much sense. It's used as, "Bob, you're speaking trout, can you please explain without the Warcraft references?"
It's not so much MMO slang specifically is bad--it's just a communication problem in general. Which perhaps could be problematic based on all kinds of backgrounds, not just MMO ones---I've had some players for example who used a lot of military terminology to explain something they want to do in an RPG battle, and those were just terms I didn't learn in Quaker First Day school. And then I had to explain to THEM what "First Day School" was (Sunday School). And so on...
Asking players to be clear=a good thing, so I think we are in agreement there. I just don't think the issue is always MMOs, per se.
If someone is proposing to use a tactic that works in a video game that doesn't work in a tabletop setting, that is indeed also problematic. But in that case, it's not the language that's the problem, it's what it's representing: X person could describe an MMO raid tactic in perfectly plain English anyone could understand, and it would STILL be a bad idea. Ask them to stop using the slang isn't going to help if their mind is wrapped around a faulty idea to begin with. And the only way to resolve that is to explain and demonstrate tactics which work better.
MMO terminology just simplifies gaming concepts that have been around since the 70's for ease of communication when typing a full phrase would hinder play.
It's not that big of a deal, really.
It drives me insane when i hear a player of mine tell the fighter to "kite" the BBEG, or when he says he is going to make a tank. Or when the wizard says that he wants to be good at cc (crowd control). I have told them to drop the terminology or find another GM. They have, thanfully stopped using it. With small relapses.
If you were going to be a jerk about it like that, I'd use it all the time just to piss you off.
"Toon" doesn't even make sense in MMOs. I don't know what idiot came up with that.
Raise this point with me again when and if computer software can ever pass the Turing test. As long as it can't, there will be a fundamental difference between RPGs and MMOs.
What. But... that... it... I don't even.
You can get software to pass the Turing Test. The problem is that the Test itself is fundamentally flawed as the conditions for the test reduce human communication to a very mechanical level. So it's not much that the machines sound human, but the humans wind up talking like machines.
Raise this point with me again when and if computer software can ever pass the Turing test. As long as it can't, there will be a fundamental difference between RPGs and MMOs.
The PROBLEM is how that is relevant or is even a remotely sensible argument in the context it was used.
Also.
Get off my lawn you damn kids!
No, the difference is between using decision trees and making seat-of-the-pants decisions.... That dosesn't even make sense. The difference is using dice vs number generators.
Raise this point with me again when and if computer software can ever pass the Turing test. As long as it can't, there will be a fundamental difference between RPGs and MMOs.
LilithsThrall - "Play-by-post and using computer character & map tools means you aren't human."
You heard it here.