Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.
So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?
etc etc
Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?etc etc
There is no issue. If you started at 1st level with an INT of 11 and increased it to 12 at 4th level, you essentially gain 4 skill points. Headbands of Int grant max ranks in a particular skill, per +2 granted.
I've always let players treat both Int and Con as retroactive in effect. If you increase either then it causes your previous levels to get the boost as well. It may not seem like a good character development situation.. but it gives people a reason to raise Int other then a Wizard or an Alchemist.
As far as the skill point adjustments go, I rule it as their character gaining a broader understanding of their skills reflected with the extra skill points. They are supposed to use it to learn/retain new skills quickly. :)
There is no issue. If you started at 1st level with an INT of 11 and increased it to 12 at 4th level, you essentially gain 4 skill points. Headbands of Int grant max ranks in a particular skill, per +2 granted.
The issue is allowing a character to put max ranks in multiple skills. Many many more than what would probably be allowed RAI.
If you are a Wiz with an Int of 30 at lvl 10 and your GM lets you gain retroactive skill points that's what, 12 maxed skills? (and the obviously awesome save DCs and bonus spells)
Or what if the Rogue wanted to be a skill monkey and had 18 maxed.
Or if the Oracle took the mystery that lets her add CHA to Knowledge skills
I find that knowing everything all the time and "never" failing skill checks makes for an extremely bland game.
In Pathfinder, skill points are retroactive, just like hit points from Con.
Is that cited anywhere in the Core book?
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With headband of vast intellect it has already taken care of:
Headband of Vast Intelligence
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot headband; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6); Weight 1 lb.
Description
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
If you get a Scarlet and blue joun stone you can freely chose the skills.
Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?etc etc
I don't make them track. The int boosting headband adds a particualar skill. Just let them state which skill came from the headband, and which one they learned on their own.
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In Pathfinder, skill points are retroactive, just like hit points from Con.Is that cited anywhere in the Core book?
No, the designers have said on more than one occasion that it works this way BECAUSE there is no rule in the rulebook like in previous editions.
Search around on the boards, or on the FAQ.
EDIT: Here's a post saved in the FAQ: linkify.
Is that cited anywhere in the Core book?
Yes. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligen ce-Int-
Or on the actual PRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-bonuses
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
To avoid abuse with +INT items, instead of letting you put your ranks however you want them the item has skills tied to it that it puts max ranks in. For instance, a certain +6 INT Headband might give you max ranks in climb, swim, and knowledge Geography rather than letting you reallocate your skill points by taking off the item and putting it back on. This rule is found in the description for the headbands.
I find that knowing everything all the time and "never" failing skill checks makes for an extremely bland game.
I'd like to point out that there's a world of difference between having max skill ranks and never failing a skill check, particularly given the situations 10th level characters get themselves into. Opponents of a similar level can still pose quite a challenge with regard to opposed skill checks like stealth/perception, bluff/sense motive, and so on.
I'd also ask - what do you think is the difference between starting a character at a higher level and maxing skills out that way and starting a character at 1st level and maxing the same skills out with every levelup? I don't really see one.
Is that cited anywhere in the Core book?
This is from the SRD:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
(Emphasis mine)
Here is a clarification by Jacobs of that rule. Relevant section: "skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game." That is to say, skill ranks are now retroactive.
Grabbed the link off d20pfsrd.com, so I'm not sure which forum post it came from, but if someone wants to search-fu it, I'm sure it's somewhere.
I'd also ask - what do you think is the difference between starting a character at a higher level and maxing skills out that way and starting a character at 1st level and maxing the same skills out with every levelup? I don't really see one.
Didn't know that they wanted the skill points to be retroactive.
The difference being that if they weren't supposed to be you'd have a lvl 10 char started at 1st lvl with less maxed skills than the lvl 10 started at lvl 10.
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There is no issue. If you started at 1st level with an INT of 11 and increased it to 12 at 4th level, you essentially gain 4 skill points. Headbands of Int grant max ranks in a particular skill, per +2 granted.
The issue is allowing a character to put max ranks in multiple skills. Many many more than what would probably be allowed RAI.
If you are a Wiz with an Int of 30 at lvl 10 and your GM lets you gain retroactive skill points that's what, 12 maxed skills? (and the obviously awesome save DCs and bonus spells)
Or what if the Rogue wanted to be a skill monkey and had 18 maxed.
Or if the Oracle took the mystery that lets her add CHA to Knowledge skillsI find that knowing everything all the time and "never" failing skill checks makes for an extremely bland game.
As the headband are made by spellcasters (mostly wizards) and they generally have already maxed spellcraft and knowledge arcana, the headband generally contain less than critical knowledge skills.
I would place in them things like Knowledge (engineering), (history) [note that I require specialization in specific periods for in depth knowledge. For a guy Knowledge history, ancient Osirion can be great, for another useless], (geography), (nature) and so on.
Some specific craft or profession can be another good choice.
The high level wizard dabbling in magic item construction could easily have worked together with the local jeweller to construct a back up +2 intelligence headband with the skill Craft (jewellery) to huse when he is at home constructing and enchanting stuff.
A step down from his "normal" +6 adventuring headband with adventuring related skills, but useful when crafting something.
A step down from his "normal" +6 adventuring headband with adventuring related skills, but useful when crafting something.
I know you probably know this, but just pointing out, remember that you have to wear the headband for 24 hours to get the skill ranks.
Doesn't matter too much in this example, but it is to keep people from abusing it by having multiple headbands with all the different skills (at 4K for a +2 it would be pretty cheap at higher levels to get one for EVERYTHING) and swapping them in or out as needed during an adventure.
If you are a Wiz with an Int of 30 at lvl 10 and your GM lets you gain retroactive skill points that's what, 12 maxed skills? (and the obviously awesome save DCs and bonus spells)Does that INT of 30 include a Headband +6? If so, that's two skill points per level which are hardwired by the headband and not subject to player discretion. If the player has points already in the headband skills, they overlap and do not stack.
Minor correction: +6 is three skill points per level.
The overlapping thing doesn't really come into play when you're making a level 10 character rather than playing him 1-9 first, or when you get to choose what skills you want on the headband.
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A step down from his "normal" +6 adventuring headband with adventuring related skills, but useful when crafting something.I know you probably know this, but just pointing out, remember that you have to wear the headband for 24 hours to get the skill ranks.
Doesn't matter too much in this example, but it is to keep people from abusing it by having multiple headbands with all the different skills (at 4K for a +2 it would be pretty cheap at higher levels to get one for EVERYTHING) and swapping them in or out as needed during an adventure.
That is why it is his back up at home. A reserve if needed and a handy skill to use when he want to relax.
As the cost is low he can even make it "slotless" and something less encumbering than a metal headband that you never remove.
I sometime have doubts about this guy that live for years with a headband that he never take out, even for washing his hairs.
Seeing some of the design those headband could be pretty uncomfortable after a time.
Not that forever living with a belt at your waist is much better.
"Sorry dear if the buckle scratch you, I can't remove the belt of giant strength, I would lose power attack for tomorrow." ;)
"Sorry dear if the buckle scratch you, I can't remove the belt of giant strength, I would lose power attack for tomorrow." ;)
"Sorry, dear, about the tacky charisma/int(bluff, diplomacy) headband I'm always wearing, but if I remove I'll turn back into the bumbling fool who can't string three words together to save my life, rather than the suave Casanova who so effortlessly seduced you."
If you're creating the headband, the only skills you can choose are those you already posess.If you are a Wiz with an Int of 30 at lvl 10 and your GM lets you gain retroactive skill points that's what, 12 maxed skills? (and the obviously awesome save DCs and bonus spells)Does that INT of 30 include a Headband +6? If so, that's two skill points per level which are hardwired by the headband and not subject to player discretion. If the player has points already in the headband skills, they overlap and do not stack.Minor correction: +6 is three skill points per level.
The overlapping thing doesn't really come into play when you're making a level 10 character rather than playing him 1-9 first, or when you get to choose what skills you want on the headband.
Ah, yes, but you only need to place a single rank in it to be able to make the item, and then wear that and enjoy full ranks. :-)
EDIT: Oh, isn't this also a "requirement" that can be sidestepped during creation by adding DC?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If you're creating the headband, the only skills you can choose are those you already posess.
That's true. But the game allows more than one character to work cooperatively as "the creator" of the item, contributing spells or whatnot. It's pretty straightforward to hire an expert safecracker to work with you to construct the Headband of Intellect +2 (disable device).
I'm continually curious, though, about languages. High Intelligence for a starting character produces additional languages known. Do Intelligence boosts grant new languages? (For consistency, yes; the reason that skill points are now retroactive is to make life simpler for developers statting up NPCs at high level without requiring them to build the characters from 1st level up.)
What about Headbands of Intellect +2 (linguistics)? Do all headbands +2 provide a free language due to heightened Intelligence, in addition to the languages granted by the skill? Are the languages provided by Linguistics hard-wired into the item? If so, are they provided in order (1st level: Gnoll; 2nd Level: Auran; 3rd Level: Osirion...)
If you're creating the headband, the only skills you can choose are those you already posess.
Where do you see that?
Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?etc etc
Our GM has ruled that Int boosting items do not provide new skill points or languages no matter how long they are worn, just like she has ruled that you cannot qualify for classes and feats from item effects.
Basically those abilities need to be an actual part of 'you' in order to use them to get permanent changes.
Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?etc etc
Our GM has ruled that Int boosting items do not provide new skill points or languages no matter how long they are worn, just like she has ruled that you cannot qualify for classes and feats from item effects.
Basically those abilities need to be an actual part of 'you' in order to use them to get permanent changes.
I agree with the language thing as an actual rule. It says they are chosen at the time of character creation. If they can be changed then a wizard should be able to retroactively choose its beginning first level spells since they are also based on starting intelligence.
Where do you see that?
If you're creating the headband, the only skills you can choose are those you already posess.
Yes, I wonder the same.
Requirements:
Craft Wondrous Item, fox's cunning; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
LazarX is incorrect.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Concerro, when the core rulebook was written, the developers hadn't realized that the skills attached to the headband of intellect needed to be explicitly hard-coded into the item. That discussion occured on the boards after the rulebook came out.
It seems unfair to require the developers to have foreseen that discussion and decision. Most every other item that bestows a feat or ranks in a skill requires the creator to have those as prerequisites.
Concerro, when the core rulebook was written, the developers hadn't realized that the skills attached to the headband of intellect needed to be explicitly hard-coded into the item. That discussion occured on the boards after the rulebook came out.
It seems unfair to require the developers to have foreseen that discussion and decision. Most every other item that bestows a feat or ranks in a skill requires the creator to have those as prerequisites.
There was a discussion/clarification from the developers later on that said you need ranks in the skill you are putting into the Headband of Intellect?
And please, let us not go down the “but it only makes sense/is logical” route. If a developer ruled it as such, then fine. But I’m not going to assume you need ranks in a skill just because you are crafting the headband with that/those skill(s).
I also bring this up as I think it’s a bit silly that you need ranks as you would never create a Headband of Intellect for yourself, as you would already have ranks in the chosen skill. Sure, it could net you a higher skill, but would it be that worthwhile? As a Wizard, it would be much more worthwhile to craft a headband with skill ranks I don’t have.
Concerro, when the core rulebook was written, the developers hadn't realized that the skills attached to the headband of intellect needed to be explicitly hard-coded into the item. That discussion occured on the boards after the rulebook came out.
It seems unfair to require the developers to have foreseen that discussion and decision. Most every other item that bestows a feat or ranks in a skill requires the creator to have those as prerequisites.
The other items may have certain prerequisites, but as of now the headband doesn't. I am not making judgements on them(devs). I am just saying Lazar is incorrect.
If the devs discuss something on the boards and call it out as a bad idea it generally means they will look at it again, and make a final decision later. As of now no errata has been issued that says they have officially made that decision.The brass knuckles was called as a bad idea by a dev, but in the APG they let it go so them calling it out on the boards does not really mean a lot until they change it in the book.
This is something that's a bit of a bone to pick with me. I'd have much preferred that the Headbands granted NOTHING as far as skill points.
Ah, ok. So I can see we are going to be at an impasse here.
So you feel that the headbands should only be beneficial to those who use INT as a primary ability for spellcasting?
Sure, a nonspellcaster can use a boosted Int for whatever INT based skills they have, or when making an INT check, or to help go towards attaining a feat. But really, most are going to boost their INT for the extra skills. So with the exception of INT based spellcasters, I would see most not wanting the headband if it didn't give extra skill points.
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Concerro, when the core rulebook was written, the developers hadn't realized that the skills attached to the headband of intellect needed to be explicitly hard-coded into the item. That discussion occured on the boards after the rulebook came out.
It seems unfair to require the developers to have foreseen that discussion and decision. Most every other item that bestows a feat or ranks in a skill requires the creator to have those as prerequisites.
Cloak of elvenkind.
It give a competence bonus to stealth but it require invisibility, not the stealth skill.And as they foresee the opportunity to have a skill attacked to the item (it is in every edition of the book, first printing included) they had all the reasons to put the skill as a requirement if it was needed.
I would use that prerequisite as an houserule, but that is another matter.
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This is something that's a bit of a bone to pick with me. I'd have much preferred that the Headbands granted NOTHING as far as skill points.
Ah, ok. So I can see we are going to be at an impasse here.
So you feel that the headbands should only be beneficial to those who use INT as a primary ability for spellcasting?
Sure, a nonspellcaster can use a boosted Int for whatever INT based skills they have, or when making an INT check, or to help go towards attaining a feat. But really, most are going to boost their INT for the extra skills. So with the exception of INT based spellcasters, I would see most not wanting the headband if it didn't give extra skill points.
I see why the headband has hardwired skills (it is easier to check the effect of donning/removing it, without complicated bookkeeping), but on the other hand it create a new set of problems, as you can have multiple headbands with different hardwired skills.
And I found a bit annoying the idea that someone with a Headband of vast intellect with the skill Knowledge (nobility) created before Earthfall (10.000 year ago) will know the names and lineage of the current rulers.
So for a home game there are plenty of reasons to go the "it give unused skill point that you need to allocate" way.
Keeping a extra scrap of paper on your character sheet with the skills that are only available when you don a intelligence boosting item isn't so hard to manage.
If you go that way the skills for the boosted intelligence are fixed and changing headband (unless it has a higher bonus) will not change them.
Cloak of elvenkind.
It give a competence bonus to stealth but it require invisibility, not the stealth skill.
Yes but the cloak does not give you skill points or ranks in the skill. It gives a bonus to the skill related to the spell that is used to make it. Subtley but IMO, importantly different.
I see why the headband has hardwired skills (it is easier to check the effect of donning/removing it, without complicated bookkeeping), but on the other hand it create a new set of problems, as you can have multiple headbands with different hardwired skills.
And I found a bit annoying the idea that someone with a Headband of vast intellect with the skill Knowledge (nobility) created before Earthfall (10.000 year ago) will know the names and lineage of the current rulers.
So for a home game there are plenty of reasons to go the "it give unused skill point that you need to allocate" way.
Keeping a extra scrap of paper on your character sheet with the skills that are only available when you don a intelligence boosting item isn't so hard to manage.If you go that way the skills for the boosted intelligence are fixed and changing headband (unless it has a higher bonus) will not change them.
Not sure why you had quoted myself, I agree with you. I am fine with the fixed skills on the headband. What my post was responding to is the headband not giving any extra skills/skill points at all.
Not sure why you had quoted myself, I agree with you. I am fine with the fixed skills on the headband. What my post was responding to is the headband not giving any extra skills/skill points at all.I see why the headband has hardwired skills (it is easier to check the effect of donning/removing it, without complicated bookkeeping), but on the other hand it create a new set of problems, as you can have multiple headbands with different hardwired skills.
And I found a bit annoying the idea that someone with a Headband of vast intellect with the skill Knowledge (nobility) created before Earthfall (10.000 year ago) will know the names and lineage of the current rulers.
So for a home game there are plenty of reasons to go the "it give unused skill point that you need to allocate" way.
Keeping a extra scrap of paper on your character sheet with the skills that are only available when you don a intelligence boosting item isn't so hard to manage.If you go that way the skills for the boosted intelligence are fixed and changing headband (unless it has a higher bonus) will not change them.
The way it is worded was that you wanted no new skills coming from the headband at all from my reading. He probably read it the same way I did.
So for a home game there are plenty of reasons to go the "it give unused skill point that you need to allocate" way.
Keeping a extra scrap of paper on your character sheet with the skills that are only available when you don a intelligence boosting item isn't so hard to manage.If you go that way the skills for the boosted intelligence are fixed and changing headband (unless it has a higher bonus) will not change them.
The problem with that ruling is that you can then reallocate those skill points whenever you take off and put back on the headband (and wait 24 hours). "Oh, we need a researcher? Tomorrow I'll have maxed my knowledge (arcana), knowledge (religion) and knowledge (history). We're leaving to go adventuring tomorrow? Now it's Acrobatics, Perception, and Disable Device. The king wants to see us tomorrow? Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and half ranks in Bluff and Knowledge (nobility)."
The way it is worded was that you wanted no new skills coming from the headband at all from my reading. He probably read it the same way I did.
No, that’s not what I said.
I was pointing out if the headband gave you no skill points, what the minimal benefits it would give you, which I really don’t feel is all that worthwhile except for classes who use INT to cast spells.
I even said at the end “So with the exception of INT based spellcasters, I would see most not wanting the headband if it didn't give extra skill points.”
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The problem with that ruling is that you can then reallocate those skill points whenever you take off and put back on the headband (and wait 24 hours). "Oh, we need a researcher? Tomorrow I'll have maxed my knowledge (arcana), knowledge (religion) and knowledge (history). We're leaving to go adventuring tomorrow? Now it's Acrobatics, Perception, and Disable Device. The king wants to see us tomorrow? Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and half ranks in Bluff and Knowledge (nobility)."So for a home game there are plenty of reasons to go the "it give unused skill point that you need to allocate" way.
Keeping a extra scrap of paper on your character sheet with the skills that are only available when you don a intelligence boosting item isn't so hard to manage.If you go that way the skills for the boosted intelligence are fixed and changing headband (unless it has a higher bonus) will not change them.
You don't have read my suggestion.
The idedea is that, for example, at level 8 your PC get a +2 int headband and get 8 skill point. Before the next level increase he must allocate those 8 skill point. That purchase is fixed, every time he put on a headband of intellect +2 or better his first 8 skill points are those skills and work only if he had the headband for 24 hours. When he take off the headband they became non operative but are still there, present but inaccessible.When he get a new level, if he still has the +2 headband he add 1 skill point to the list of skills accessible when he wear the headband, but again it is a fixed purchase. Removing the headband don't remove the skills, simply make them inaccessible.
It is an idea to avoid the "the Aztlan headband with Knowledge (geography) give me informations on the current orography, after Earthfall" and "this headband give me skill X at my character level even if I had only 1 level in the skill when I did made it" problems.
If the headband has hardwired skills when you start to play at high level it become feasible to have 1 or 2 low level headbands for specialized skills.
Hobbun I was only adding to your post. I agree that the skills make a int headband interesting for other classes beside the wizard or magus.
Just curious how you guys as GMs handle this issue.
A first level character gets X+Int mod of skills.
Building a character above first level leaves the opportunity for Int increase items.So say I make a lvl 10 character with a +2 Int stat item on.
Do you has GMs force me to buy it at a certain level and keep track of the extra skill points?
Do you make players ignore stat increase items for skill points?
Do you just not care and let the 10th level char put the item on, and gain retroactive points?etc etc
well, there's no need for balanced wealthy by level for stuff in your characters past. You could have been running around with the stuff the entire time. So you could have gotten your headband at first level when someone stepped out of a dark alley way, opened up his robe to display several items hanging down and said "Hey kid, wana be guaranteed to pass that spellcraft final tommorow?
A design philosophy of pathfinder is to make it matter less when you took what level. (its much easier to make high level multiclass characters when you only need to count skill ranks). In that vein i would just say whatever, don't waste the 4 or so skill points in spellcraft and then get a headband that overlaps what you need.
Int skill points and Con HP are both retroactive. When it comes to items that increase Int, if it's a change that lasts greater then 24 hours it does modify skill points.
In the case of a Headband of Int or another item that can be removed, it requires the skills that they modify to be hard coded into the item upon creation and they cannot be changed out. It allows one skill at max ranks per +2 bonus of the item.
In the case of a Tome of Understanding, it simply gives you skill points but they need to be tracked separately as if you lose the bonus you must subtract the points that it added.
I hope that helped clear things up for you a bit.