My first question is on attacks of opportunity:
OK, so clearly initiating the overrun does not provoke if you have improved Overrun.
If your CMB check is higher than their CMD then you move through their square, and onward. But won't continuing provoke? Initiating the overrun does not provoke - that is stated clearly, but what happens when you continue moving through their square, the square next to them that they threaten, and then beyond that?
If you beat the CMD by 5 or more the target is knocked prone, but you can still make attacks of opportunity while prone, and you still threaten all squares normally.
So.... looking at this I have to think that the intent is that the target of your overrun cannot make attacks of opportunity against you unless they have reach (when moving towards them you'd provoke, before you move into their square which is what the feat protects you from), but that's not what it says. Reading it RAW sounds to me like you will always provoke at some point during an Overrun, unless you end your turn in the square directly behind your target, which seems pretty pointless.
So, am I missing something or interpreting something incorrectly?
My second question is about charging.
They say you can do overrun as part of a charge, but the implication seems to be that they mean you can do it in place of your normal attack at the end of a charge - but how does this work? You normally have to end a charge at the closest square, but Overrun specifically takes you through the nearest square which means that it violates the rules of charging. Since the wording on Overrun is so poor I don't really get what they were trying to do.
My first throught was that you could Overrun one person between you and your charge target, but the inclusion of a feat called "Charge Through" specifically allows for that, so I don't really know what their intent was.
I would like to think that you can basically perform a "Charge" attack as a double move, and you get a Overrun somewhere during it. As in, an opponent is 20 feet away, you charge/overrun through him and can continue on up to ((move*2)-20) past. I would like to think that but it sounds completely counter to what a charge normally is...
Lastly,
If anyone has any tips on boosting CMB please let me know. Thanks.
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Just my thoughts...
Under Overrun it says:
"If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver."
The feat says:
"You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."
The feat doesn't say anything about "initiating" an overrun; it simply states that you don't provoke when performing the maneuver. Meaning performing the Overrun maneuver (including the movement and the actual moving through the space) is just like anything else that does not provoke an AoO, like drawing a weapon. There is no AoO from the target, period: whether before or after moving through the target's space. It just so happens that you can move while doing this action. The maneuver and the movement are one and the same, not separate ("as part of your movement"). Whether the target is prone or not does not apply.
It's basically the same in the feat "Spring Attack." You just don't provoke from your target when performing that action, no matter if you are coming or going.
Second question is a little more vauge, but I would say, as part of a charge, you get to add the +2 to your Overrun CMB check. (Most things that give you a bonus to attack also give you a bonus to CMB.) So if you can move straight to your target, it behooves you to "charge" it and get the +2. If you have to maneuver around a bit, you don't get the bonus. Remember, there is no limit to the type of moving you can do on an Overrun, unike in a charge. So if you want to dance around your teammembers in a circle before Overrunning, you can, but if you charge straight at your target, going through the square is a tad easier.
And for the CMB thing:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ok, two people are going to be late. So I'll post now.
Here are the relevant issues with playing a Charge/Overrun heavy build in terms of DM interpretation of the rules. I'll detail my reading of the rules, how the DM's have ruled then, and what need FAQ'd.
Consider this graph the battle map:
M - - - A - - B
I'm M, opponents are A and B.
I Charge B combined with an Overrun of B swapping out the Overrun for an Elephant Stomp and Overrun A on the way to B. If I fail to exceed A's CMD I stop before A. If I exceed A's CMD by 5, he provokes an AoO from everyone. If I exceed B's CMD by 5, I make an Immediate attack on B. The charge attack is +2 for the melee attack (but not the Overrun/Elephant Stomp of B nor the Overrun of A.) You do not provoke from A or B for movement because you are performing an Overrun of both and due to Improved Overrun you do not provoke.
This is my interpretation based on the various feats and their Normal vs Benefit lines combined with my reading of the rules.
Charge is a full round action that "allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action"
Overrun is a standard action that "allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack" but it is not one of the "in place of a melee attack" (Disarm, Sunder, Trip) so it has to be in addition to the attack you get while doing a Charge.
Normally you can not Overrun target A to Charge target B, but Charge Through feat allows a single Overrun of a target in the way as a free action.
Elephant Stomp allows you to perform an Overrun of a target but choose to not enter their square, and instead perform an Overrun CMB that if you succeed by 5 you then perform an Immediate action melee attack.
With Greater Overrun, anyone knocked prone (such as the Overrun as part of Charge Through) allows you to make and anyone else adjacent to them an AoO against the knock prone effect. You gain no AoO against an Elephant Stomp target even if you succeeded, they are not knocked prone so they do not provoke.
Now, on to how DM's have ruled this in the past:
1) Charge Through doesn't do "anything" since you can perform an Overrun as part of the Charge normally.
2) You can not Overrun the target of the Charge.
3) Improved Overrun doesn't prevent AoO from your movement, only from making the Overrun check (so you are only overrunning them when entering their square and not moving up to them or leaving their square.)
4) Elephant Stomp allows an attack, but you can't combine with a Charge.
I'll explain how I think these 4 interpretations are not what the rules assert later.
The feat says:
"You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."The feat doesn't say anything about "initiating" an overrun; it simply states that you don't provoke when performing the maneuver. Meaning performing the Overrun maneuver (including the movement and the actual moving through the space) is just like anything else that does not provoke an AoO, like drawing a weapon. There is no AoO from the target, period: whether before or after moving through the target's space. It just so happens that you can move while doing this action. The maneuver and the movement are one and the same, not separate ("as part of your movement"). Whether the target is prone or not does not apply.
I somehow managed to space on the wording of the feat itself and was too focused on the wording of the Overrun ability. That actually makes overrun very nice when fighting things with a ridiculous reach then, because you can cross through its 10/15/20/alot feet of threatened area and not provoke. Thanks for catching what I missed.
@James Risner
I had originally had a similar thought to what you have (that you can normally make an Overrun attempt for free in addition to your charge at an opponent), but the very existence of the feat "Charge Through" and a thread on these forums is what got me thinking that's not how it works, and that - instead - the wording implies you can use Overrun in place of the melee attack at the end of a charge. That's what leads to the quesion of "How do I end a charge with something that requires further, undefined, movement?".
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Just my thoughts...
Under Overrun it says:
"If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver."The feat says:
"You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."The feat doesn't say anything about "initiating" an overrun; it simply states that you don't provoke when performing the maneuver. Meaning performing the Overrun maneuver (including the movement and the actual moving through the space) is just like anything else that does not provoke an AoO, like drawing a weapon. There is no AoO from the target, period: whether before or after moving through the target's space. It just so happens that you can move while doing this action. The maneuver and the movement are one and the same, not separate ("as part of your movement"). Whether the target is prone or not does not apply.
The feat negates provoking the AoO from the Overrun CMB. The movement is not part of the the Overrun; the Overrun takes place after movement, and if successful, before the movement that follows. The movement itself provokes in it's own right if the character leaves a threatened square. Improved Overrun doesn't negate this AoO from movement. It cannot be used to negate the AoO due to reach on the approach, and it doesn't make any change to possible AoO if continuing to move out of a threatened square afterwards. Each possible AoO is evaluated in its own right.
This is similar to charging vs. an opponent with reach. The charge itself doesn't provoke, but the movement associated with the charge out of a threatened square does.
Edit: Overrun as part of a charge is problematic; there is a reason whey it was errata'd out of D&D 3.5 and the retention of the charge option via the SRD leaves the problematic elements in. On rethink, I think the movement through the target's square doesn't provoke on a successful overrun, and this reasonably includes the departure of the threatened square into the target's square, and the movement out of the target's square. The departure from other squares on approach and after vs. a target with reach are not negated, however.