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This came up the other day and we rolled with it, but I was wondering afterward if the way I did so is actually possible.
The situation:
Medium sized flying attacker with grab and fly by attack swoops in and makes a claw attack vs a gnome. Free grab attempt is successful, it has a str of 17 and the gnome weighs about 30-40 pounds so I let it continue flying with him for the remainder of its movement for that turn.
Looking back now I think maybe it cannot move him at all until a second round is spent maintaining the grapple to achieve the "move" condition of grapple.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
I think I've more or less proposed and answered my own question while writing this post, but I'll go ahead and see if anyone has more thoughts on the matter especially regarding flying with the other creature in case I've missed anything else.
So long as you don't fly more than half your move speed after the grapple the action should be legal. Not that they would want to, but the grapplee would nto get a +4 bonus to escape the grapple, because the flyer is not placing them in hazardous terrain.
Regarding flying while grappling, just count the carried creature's weight towards the flying creature's encumberance. The standard penalties will affect its flight and movement.
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What I believe I did wrong at the time was skipping the second round it would require to "Maintain the grapple" to enable the "move" the target sub-clause of grapple.
I did the equivalent of allowing one grapple roll to initiate the grappled condition and the pinned condition as one standard action. Nothing that had ever come up before so it was new to me, but I'll know in the future.
I think I've more or less proposed and answered my own question while writing this post, but I'll go ahead and see if anyone has more thoughts on the matter especially regarding flying with the other creature in case I've missed anything else.
I think you got the correct answer twice. You made a ruling and kept the game going. You then looked closely at the rules-as-written to analyze what should have happened.
I think you did miss one thing that as soon as the creature grabbed the gnome, both gain the grappled condition and neither can move. So, at this moment the creature can't fly away. It has to let go or stop moving.
There is another option because of the grab ability that lets the attacker take a -20 penalty and not gain the grappled condition itself. In this case, I think your first ruling is correct, that the creature could just keep on flying (if possible, given the added encumbrance).
I think I would disagree with Scipion and I would allow the gnome a free attempt to break free. My reasoning is that as soon as he is more than 5 feet in the air when the creature lets go you will take damage from the fall, so I consider that a hazardous location.
It is an interesting case requiring "reading between the lines" of the rules-as-written.
I agree with Tim's interpretation -- you can fly away on Round 1 if and only if you took the -20 to your grapple check. Otherwise you're grappled and need to wait to Round 2 to use the "move" Grapple action.
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I think you got the correct answer twice. You made a ruling and kept the game going. You then looked closely at the rules-as-written to analyze what should have happened.
Agreed! (Do you have a slot open for another player?)
I think you did miss one thing that as soon as the creature grabbed the gnome, both gain the grappled condition and neither can move. So, at this moment the creature can't fly away. It has to let go or stop moving.
Baloney. You're telling me that a dragon with the required feats (Flyby Attack, maybe Snatch?) can't fly past a group of PCs to grab the halfling and keep moving?
I don't care what the rules say, it would work in my game.
The rules also don't handle Small and smaller creatures occupying the same space as a Medium creature very well either, so I will pick actions that make cinematic and storyline sense and go with it.
My reasoning is that as soon as he is more than 5 feet in the air when the creature lets go you will take damage from the fall, so I consider that a hazardous location.
I can agree with this part, though. A flying creature that suddenly takes on additional weight *AND* that places the creature being carried into a dangerous position is going to get a LOT of resistance! To me that means the +4 bonus and the free check.
It is an interesting case requiring "reading between the lines" of the rules-as-written.
Agreed.
Like the "tiny creatures in the same square vs. swarm in the same square" weirdness. Or how an assassin who's waiting for a PC to walk by and jumps out at them (surprising them at the same time) doesn't treat the PC as flat-footed if there was already a combat going on (at least not by RAW). Or how the Move action when grappling allows a creature to be moved through a hostile square without penalty (i.e. you can move an opponent through a square that one of your allies occupies) and how you can force the opponent to squeeze (possibly forcing them to be squeezed while an ally gets an AOO).
Some things don't make sense. So use the brain that God gave you and make a ruling that *does* make sense. :)
Baloney. You're telling me that a dragon with the required feats (Flyby Attack, maybe Snatch?) can't fly past a group of PCs to grab the halfling and keep moving?
You don't think it's reasonable to make the dragon take the -20 to not be grappled himself? That does a decent job of reflecting the greatly increased difficulty of grappling an opponent while continuing to fly as if you weren't involved in a grapple with them.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I agree with Tim's interpretation -- you can fly away on Round 1 if and only if you took the -20 to your grapple check. Otherwise you're grappled and need to wait to Round 2 to use the "move" Grapple action.
I don't support that interpretation.
Your grappled opponent is still considered grappled. He would still require a successful grapple check to move you even if the grappler is not considered grappled.
Right. Nothing in RAW says you can Move the target except by using the Maintain/Move Option.
What is wierd is that using the -20 option the Grappler themself can Move up to any remaining movement,
and apparently the target is still grapple even if outside of the Grappler`s reach.
(which is silly but RAW... even Dimension Dooring away doesn`t break Grapple by RAW)
My house-rule is that the target must remain in the Grappler`s Reach or the Grapple breaks.
This does allow for things like Large Reach creatures moving so their target cannot attack them back.
It may need special wording saying that the target can always make Grapple checks vs. Grappler.
Baloney. You're telling me that a dragon with the required feats (Flyby Attack, maybe Snatch?) can't fly past a group of PCs to grab the halfling and keep moving?
I don't support that interpretation.
Your grappled opponent is still considered grappled. He would still require a successful grapple check to move you even if the grappler is not considered grappled.
This makes me even more sure of my ruling. I'm wrong for being too strict and I'm wrong for being too lenient. :-P
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Baloney. You're telling me that a dragon with the required feats (Flyby Attack, maybe Snatch?) can't fly past a group of PCs to grab the halfling and keep moving?You don't think it's reasonable to make the dragon take the -20 to not be grappled himself? That does a decent job of reflecting the greatly increased difficulty of grappling an opponent while continuing to fly as if you weren't involved in a grapple with them.
I'd have to look at the CMB numbers in more detail, but if there is more than a 20% possibility of the dragon failing (remember, this is a dragon with Flyby Attack and perhaps the Snatch feat) then there's something wrong.
I mean, that's how dragons hunt for goodness sake! They swoop down and snatch up goats, cows, even horses. In fact, I've almost convinced myself that grabbing a halfling on a flyby attack should be automatic except on a natural "1"...
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Yet this halfling hero, known for their slippery dodging and dexterity, is powerful and experienced enough to be fighting a dragon doesn't have a chance to make it difficult for a dragon to grapple him?
Narratively, if the dragon takes the -20 to avoid being grappled, he knows he needs to grab the halfling in such a way so to not restrict his ability to fly.
If he doesn't take the -20 then he knows he target is nimble and just wants to make sure he gets a hold of him, forcing him to linger above the halfling for a few seconds.
I'd have to look at the CMB numbers in more detail, but if there is more than a 20% possibility of the dragon failing (remember, this is a dragon with Flyby Attack and perhaps the Snatch feat) then there's something wrong.
I mean, that's how dragons hunt for goodness sake! They swoop down and snatch up goats, cows, even horses. In fact, I've almost convinced myself that grabbing a halfling on a flyby attack should be automatic except on a natural "1"...
Regardless of hunting methods, apex predators fail in a hunt more often than not. Big deal, the dragon swooped in and missed the little halfling, that's okay, another will be along shortly (pun intended).
Isn't there an ability or mechanic called "snatch" or something similar for just such an occasion?