since when are chuck dan damme segal and chan...... monks? martial artists =/= monk
Agreed. I would place them as fighters for the most part, maybe some barbarian/ranger here and there. Possibly a bit of rogue as well.
None of them really show any monk type abilities besides unarmed strikes.
To each their own. I would generally disagree. I consider the unarmed strikes to be the bread and butter of both traditional monks AND martial artists.
For my Elric character the first three levels of this class is simply GOLDEN. Flurry of blows... increased unarmed damage.... Quick and nimble evasion... It's pretty much Exactly what I shot for in 2E. Though to be fair my 2E character focused HEAVILY on increasing AC/dodging... as Martial arts are prone to do...
At least till you get to the Ki pool... I was never a fan of the 'ki' CONCEPT and martial artists gaining super anime powers hurt my head... but fortunately if I DID make him for Pathfinder... You can still find 'human' things to spend the ki on... extra attacks and such.
I think if your plan was to make an unarmed fighter... and you DIDN'T go with the monk base class it seems kind of crazy and your working to hard... and you'll never do the damage with your fists and kicks that a monk does.
Just that Lawful contigent that bugs me...
For an equivalent weapon enchantment, pick up a set of enchanted brass knuckles. The Amulet of Mighty Fists allows the monk to use their entire body as a weapon, rather than just their fists. This means they can do things while their hands are full and still get the weapon enchantments.
Which, in my view, is paying 2.5 times as much as my fighter buddy to have freedom in describing my attacks. There is some concrete benefit, yes, but it seems to me far too much of an edge case to justify anywhere near that much of a boost in cost.
As far as gearlessness goes...while I'm in favor of an actually useful Vow of Poverty type deal, I don't necessarily want the default monk to be a complete breakaway from the WBL system. But, if you don't see how a class whose defining schtick is fighting unarmed and unarmored, and who comes from the archetype of ascetic Shaolin warriors and wuxia stories heavily implies gearlessness...may I suggest an appointment with your optometrist?
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I think if your plan was to make an unarmed fighter... and you DIDN'T go with the monk base class it seems kind of crazy and your working to hard... and you'll never do the damage with your fists and kicks that a monk does.
I found it pretty easy to beat out the monk damage-wise with my Str-based cleric. It would be even worse were I going fighter.
And as I said, none of the example martial artists did anything monkly beyond unarmed strikes as far as I can tell.
I have several ideas/suggestions some from my players and some from myself. I would love some critique/feedback.
1. Give monk the guided property baked into their class, as a low level class feature. (Concern for this is based on the fact that this may make wisdom too over used for monks.)
Guided
Source Pathfinder #10 22
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th
Price +1 bonus
Description
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons — it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spiritual weapon
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2.Allow for Ki buffs to last longer like an Inquisitors judgement lasting all fight. (This may make the use of Ki too powerful, I have not run numbers yet on this.)
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3.Allow for the activation of multiple Ki abilities with each Ki point. (Same concerns as number 2)
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4. Rebuild the monk using the new Qing-gong monk as a guide line, I.E. modular powers and progression. (I like this idea it is just going to take the most work, and since none of my players currently have any interest in monk, I have not drafted it yet.)
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5. Allow for a monk to either flurry of blows or use his enhancement bonus to speed in a round.
An example: A level 3 monk would at this level gain the ability to either Flurry for 2 attacks and then move his base move, 30ft for medium and 20 for small creatures, or could move his enhanced move, 40ft for medium and 30 for small creatures, and make a single attack.
(I am afraid this may be much too powerful but it seems to fit thematically and addresses the monk mobility vs attacks problem.)
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A good GM would eliminate this problem, by cautioning a newb about the complexities of the monk before they started. They should do this for any class any new player is interested in playing to avoid character hatred later in the game.
So what is the problem with the monk?
What if the GM is new, too? Or has just never run for a Monk (and hasn't read this board)? That situation absolutely crops up, you know.
If the Class requires specialized knowledge, I'd think it should say so on the tin, so to speak. I mean, as others mention, a spellcaster, you know is going to be pretty complex, the Abilities are easy enough to choose, and they have ways of learning as you go (especially with prepared casters). If you build a Monk in the least bit wrong? You're just screwed. Pretty much forever.
And all that assumes that giving the Monk the ability to handle himself as a damage dealer is somehow a bad idea...which is a completely alien idea to me. I mean, how is adding options to the good ways to build a Class (without making the existing ones unbalancingly powerful) ever a bad thing?
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^^^^ For serious. Making the class more user friendly would be a good thing. And complaining about monks gaining more versatility in builds is downright insane when wizards are being given more options to get around their weaknesses.
I have several ideas/suggestions some from my players and some from myself. I would love some critique/feedback.
I'd share the concern about Guided having that effect on monk stats, but it would certainly help those that don't like being forced to make their monks beefy as hell in order to work. My only real concern would be where that leaves their CMB/CMD for most folks, but I'd gladly take Agile Maneuvers and pump up DEX over STR as that's closer to what a monk should feel like to me.
Using the Qinggong as the baseline for a new standard is mighty tempting too, but the current Qinggong ki costs versus what they get for them still feels pretty steep as it is now. #2 among your suggestions is mighty relevant there.
On #5, I'm kind of thinking of three levels of action now: Stand still and Full Flurry, normal movement and Half Flurry, Full Monk movement and standard attack. Normal movement + Full flurry just seems like it might be too much, hard as that is to say about the monk.
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The class doesn't say it should be played like that. The lion's share of it's abilities and it's skill set says otherwise. I don't know why people can see that the Rogue's damage bonus doesn't make it a front-line fighter and, yet, can't see that the Monk's FoB BAB doesn't make it a front-line fighter.
Again, I think we're using different definitions. My only real definition of front-line damage dealer is a melee character who can deal damage somewhat effectively. Rogues actually fit it, as do properly designed Maguses, Alchemists, and, well, almost every melee character except a Monk.
I'm not talking about it being a replacement for a Fighter or a Barbarian...just a character whose damage dealing is their primary contribution to combat.
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He tried to play the class like it says it should be played, as a straightforward front-line damage dealer...and just couldn't.The class doesn't say it should be played like that. The lion's share of it's abilities and it's skill set says otherwise. I don't know why people can see that the Rogue's damage bonus doesn't make it a front-line fighter and, yet, can't see that the Monk's FoB BAB doesn't make it a front-line fighter.
So Full BAB, extra attacks, bonus AC, and increasing unarmed damage does NOT lead you to believe that it is meant to deal damage on the front line? I could agree if it didn't get the damage dice increase or extra attacks, and especially if it didn't get the AC bonus. That would scream to me 'don't go toe-to-toe, hit and run instead'. As it is, the class has always sounded like it wants to be the main combatant and just can't.
If you want more then Trip, Grapple, Disarm, and Feint.. well then, invest into Combat Expertise. It's not a bad feat anyway. It's a good way to gain a quick bit of AC when you're in a tough situation.
Question: how do you generate stats in your game? Roll 14d6 each stat, keep the best 3?
Assume that the monk can take CE until tomes kick in is REALLY optimistic. maybe TOO MUCH ;)
BTW, I still don't get why Qinjong does not get Greater Trip along other feats using ki.
@BigNorseWolf: Nice. I like it. Expecially the modular part. I would add a version of Decisive Strike in PHII for monks too - maybe stacking with vital strike.
Kaiyan,
Combat Expertise requires 13 Int, yes.
Keep in mind.. the only Combat Maneuvers that require Combat Expertise.. are Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, and Greater Feint.. None of which the Monk really needs to do their thing well. Greater Trip is nice, but you can easily get along without it.. the other two are kinda eh for Monks.
Well, also Dirty Trick, Reposition, and Steal, but they're certainly not iconic to the monk, so I'll let that pass.
Tripping and disarming, though, are very much maneuvers the monk should thematically excel at, and they are nearly locked out of the feats that represent thorough mastery of those maneuvers.
Of course, to my mind, that's a problem with the maneuver feat system. My fix is to condense each Improved and Greater [Maneuver] feat into one, with the Greater benefits kicking in at BAB +6. I'd probably eliminate the nonsensical Combat Expertise prerequisite while I was at it, but it wouldn't matter to monks.
There has been one glaring issue for me that i house-ruled out that does not go towards "fixing" this class but i have all monk weapons scale in damage with their unarmed damage. Seemed lame to me that a monk who fights with a kama, can never do as much damage as his strikes. Now i know that you are not supposed to apply RL logic to dnd but speaking within the scope of this class i think it makes sense and allows people who want to use monks with different weapons to make that character instead of being pigeon holed by metagaming to go unarmed once unarmed damage exceeds the weapon.
Other options might include (taken together):
1. simply changing the stunning fist to not having a saving throw associated with it... People might not like this one but having seen monks and played one, stunning fist has become the new 3.5 paladin smite, you either never hit with it, or they make their save... i propose removing the save.
2. Elemental fists progresses the same (level wise) as stunning fist (i.e. +d6 every 4 levels)
3. Perfect strike can apply to all monk weapons... yes including temple sword.
4. Hit die changed to d10
5. another idea i was toying with is when a monk gains a stat bonus at ever 4th level, they gain an additional stat bonus (for a total of +2 bonus to stats every 4 levels) that they can put in any stat representing their total devotion to mind and body.
6. Lastly i would give them access to fighter specific feats (like w. specialization) in monk weapons.
5. another idea i was toying with is when a monk gains a stat bonus at ever 4th level, they gain an additional stat bonus (for a total of +2 bonus to stats every 4 levels) that they can put in any stat representing their total devotion to mind and body.
6. Lastly i would give them access to fighter specific feats (like w. specialization) in monk weapons.
I think these two changes are very interesting - I would change the stat boost to +1 in a physical stat and +1 in a mental stat rather than +1 twice, which a lot of people would stack onto the same stat.
As for the question of martials arts and monks ... get serious guys: the monk is based on the Kung Fu Shao-Lin Priest. Monk = Martial artist. Any martial art worth it's salt has mental and spiritual disciplines as well as physical.
@Gloom and Revan: by which basis you decided those maneuvers are not iconic for the monk?
I am sorry, but if one of the monk features should be be good at maneuvers, the monk should be good at every maneuvers. And I perfectly see a Drunken Master or a Hungry Ghost have dirty trick as an iconic move, as well as a Lotus a reposition.
Why should not the monk being able to Greater Trip? Or trip with a quarterstaff?
Fun fact: with UM they introduced staff feats. But they nevertheless need int 13 because are for the magus.
If the Monk is to do manoeuvre feats then they have to have either Strength 13 for Power Attack (and the following manoeuvres) or Intelligence 13 for Combat Expertise, making them even more MAD.
@Dabbler:
I see your point, or even if you made it so you could not increase the same stat with both points, that would be better i think.
Also i just wanted to simplify the first part of my earlier post, sorry i tend to be long winded and do not seem to communicate well via forum...
I houseruled that monks using "monk weapons" can use either the weapons listed damage OR the unarmed damage (whichever is greater, but also their choice). When adopting the unarmed damage for such a weapon, you also must use the unarmed crit stats (i.e. once a monk gets unarmed damage of d10 and uses a temple sword, if they decide to use the unarmed damage they lose the 19-20/X2 crit).
@Gloom and Revan: by which basis you decided those maneuvers are not iconic for the monk?
I am sorry, but if one of the monk features should be be good at maneuvers, the monk should be good at every maneuvers. And I perfectly see a Drunken Master or a Hungry Ghost have dirty trick as an iconic move, as well as a Lotus a reposition.
Why should not the monk being able to Greater Trip? Or trip with a quarterstaff?
Fun fact: with UM they introduced staff feats. But they nevertheless need int 13 because are for the magus.
I think you misunderstand me. I want the monk able to Greater Trip and Greater Disarm. That was the main thrust of my post, in fact. I merely acknowledged that there was an argument to be made that the maneuvers Gloom apparently forgot were part of the Combat Expertise tree were not particularly monk-ish.
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Fully agreed on disarming and tripping being VERY monkish things to do.
Touching on a point of debate from the "two wrongs making a good character" thread: Would there honestly be any harm in a feat that allowed a character to deal their DEX rather than STR as damage with unarmed strike or monk weapons? Or would such a feat be better left open to all classes?
Fully agreed on disarming and tripping being VERY monkish things to do.
Touching on a point of debate from the "two wrongs making a good character" thread: Would there honestly be any harm in a feat that allowed a character to deal their DEX rather than STR as damage with unarmed strike or monk weapons? Or would such a feat be better left open to all classes?
I'd open it to all classes. Along with Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, it could help people wanting to build hit and run type characters.
Mikaze said: Touching on a point of debate from the "two wrongs making a good character" thread: Would there honestly be any harm in a feat that allowed a character to deal their DEX rather than STR as damage with unarmed strike or monk weapons? Or would such a feat be better left open to all classes?
I agree with Marius on this one as well, I do think that they should add an "Improved Weapon Finesse" feat usable by any finessable weapon, to which Unarmed counts.
As far as Trip and Disarm being "Very monkish" Monk does get Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats bypassing their pre-requisites. The greater versions are a bit out of their standard package without taking Combat Expertise.
I've never really had the aversion to Combat Expertise that most people seem to have. If I weren't trying to make a damage churning specialist, I'd def be taking it. Optional huge boost to AC can mean the difference between having a 30% chance to get hit and a 5% chance to get hit.
Fully agreed on disarming and tripping being VERY monkish things to do.
Touching on a point of debate from the "two wrongs making a good character" thread: Would there honestly be any harm in a feat that allowed a character to deal their DEX rather than STR as damage with unarmed strike or monk weapons? Or would such a feat be better left open to all classes?
A houserule that I have sometimes considered implementing is turning 'Finesse' into a weapons quality--weapons like rapiers and daggers default to using Dex to hit. The Weapon Finesse feat would then allow the wielder of such weapons to add Dex to damage--possibly subject to the same restrictions as sneak attack.
@Gloom: The question is why are Greater Disarm and Greater Trip 'outside of their standard package'? Intelligence is one of only two stats a monk can afford to dump, but doing so prevents them from mastering two of the maneuvers which are most iconic to the class. If they get the Improved [Maneuver] feats as bonus feats, why shouldn't they get the Greater ones?
That sounds like more of a question for the developers and a clarification as to the pre-requisites of the abilities. If they want them to be available then they should post errata to that effect.
Point Buy can have some pretty strict constraints, as can most rolling methods unless you're really lucky. Personally I prefer one of two house rules.
1) Combining Improved/Greater Maneuver feats and allowing them to be unlocked whenever their BAB pre-requisite is reached simply by having the Improved Version..
Which is great if you're working in a high fantasy low restriction world..
Or..
2) Add the Greater version of Disarm and Trip to the Monk's Bonus Feat list.
Regardless of the result there, there are a few things I'd like to assume over anything.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers are automatic properties of the game, and not feats. If your dex is higher then your strength then you automatically fall over to it.
Also, I assume that a Monk's Maneuver training is Superior to Combat Defense Training and allows a Monk to use their Monk level for both their CMB and their CMD rather then needing to take a feat to become more defensive.
I also prefer to add a feat akin to "Improved Weapon Finesse" that allows someone to use Dex instead of Strength for damage if their Dex is higher and if the weapon they are using is a "Finessable" weapon. I don't usually give that one away for free unless again, I'm doing a high fantasy low restriction world.
Then again, those are house-rules and while I and most other DM's are cool with them, you can't rely on them to always be there. Rather then arguing balance, semantics, whatnot.. I'd be pushing more for an Errata regarding Combat Maneuvers for Monk bonus feats. Since Ultimate Combat was just around the corner I was hoping that would solve that issue.
Especially since they just added a couple new maneuvers in the Advanced Players Guide. :P
I would replace flurry, let them make an attack for every ten ft they move with a plus 1 to hit and damage for each ten feet moved. So you can ram into a big bad guy and make all your attacks on him or run around smacking different people, or using different manuevers (obviously have to end with a grapple, unless you want to add an ability called pretzel knot at high level that lets you leave after a grapple). Movement still provokes AOO (makes mobility a good investment).
Obviously make other abilities less situational but something like this would make me happy.