Ok I may jump in on this with my Kensai Build... how much gold on items do I have to spend at 12th level?
And yes I see the stupid power of Dervish Dance but I can't see a Kensai using anything but a Katana ::sighs::
Actually I'm running a dervish right now, it's not that the dervish is stupid powerful, it's weapon finesse. The extra +3 to +5 to damage every hit is kind of menial when you have a dozen pearls of power (1st) to let you get off 3-5 shocking grasps every fight of every day. If I made this magus all over again I'd certainly not use dervish dance, technically I'd bet that craft wonderous items would deliver more DPR than dervish dance with all the extra pearls you could make.
Of course you could obviously have it, it's not hurting you, but the performance increase for dervish will be very negligible after level 5.
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Redid build with 1 level of Dawnflower Derish.
Shazzara
Female human Dawnflower Dervish 1 / Bladebound Kensai 11
NG Medium Humanoid
Init: +14; Senses: Perception +18
AC 32, Touch 26, Flat-footed 19 (+9 dex, +3 ins, +4 armor, +1 lck, +2 def, +2 nat, 1 dge)
Hp 98
Fort +13 Ref +18 Will +13
Spd 30 ft.
Melee
. . scimitar +21 (1d6+14/15-20/x2) - unmodified
. . . attk (+8 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +3 enh)
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +3 enh, +2 spec)
. . scimitar + 17 (1d6+25/15-20/x2) - power attack, arcane strike, arcane pool(+1 enh/speed), black blade strike
. . . attk (+8 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +4 enh, -3 pwr, -2 spell)
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +4 enh, +2 spec, +4 pwr, +3 arc, +3 bb)
Str 14(+2) Dex 28(+9) Con 14(+2) Int 17(+4) Wis 10(+0) Cha 5(-3)
Base Atk +8 CMB +10 CMD 34
Feats
. arcane strike (1)
. dodge (h)
. weapon proficiency (scimitar) (k)
. weapon focus (scimitar)(k)
. dervish dance (b)
. heighten spell
. power attack (5)
. intensify spell (5)
. weapon specialization (scimitar)(7)
. eschew materials (9)
. improved critical (scimitar) (11)
. preferred spell (shocking grasp) (11)
Arcana
. spell blending (touch of fatigue/mage armor)
. accurate strike
Traits
. Reactionary
. Magical Lineage (shocking grasp)
Favored Class
. +11 hp
. acrobatics 12 (+21)
. climb 2 (+7)
. disable device 12 (+21)
. fly 2 (+11)
. knowledge; arcane 6 (+12)
. knowledge; planes 5 (+11)
. knowledge; dungeoneering 5 (+11)
. perception 12 (+13)
. perform; dance 2 (+11)
. spellcraft 12 (+18)
. swim 2 (+7)
. common
. arcane pool (7)
. cantrips
. spellstrike
. canny defense
. fighter training
. iaijatsu
. critical perfection
. superior refelexes
Combat Gear
. Black Bladed Scimitar: +3
. belt of incredible dexterity +4
. belt of vast intelligence +4
. +2 ring of protection
. +2 amulet of natural armor
. jingasa of the fortunate soldier
. ioun stone; pale blue rhomboid (+2 str)
. cloak of resistance +4
. rod of extend, minor
. pear of power I (10)
Other Gear
. Backpack , Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Pouch, Spell Component Pouch, belt, Spellbook, Pirate Outfit,
Level 0 (4)
. touch of fatigue
. detect magic
. mage hand
. read magic
Level 1 (5/day)
. mage armor
. shield
. expeditios retreat
. true strike
. vanish
Level 2 (5/day)
. blur
. mirror image
. glitterdust
. frigid touch
. alter self
Level 3 (4/day)
. displacement
. monstrous physique I
. vampiric touch
. elemental aura
Level 4 (2/day)
. elemental body I
I gained 1 AC, lost 1 HP, 1 BAB, 2 points of damage from power attack nd gave up 1 4th level spell (greater invisibility).
I also picked up eschew materials, which will allow me to cast in air elemental form for 22 minutes per day. No damage bonus over other options available, but AC improves and can fly.
Furious Focus instead of Eschew Materials would return marginally more DPR by negating power attacks penalty to hit on 1 attack / round.
Contributor
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Just curious - how are you getting to 28 Dex? Even if starting with 20, adding points to it at 4, 8, and 12 brings it to 23, and the belt takes it to 27.
Also, am I correct in assuming that the +3 ins to AC is supposed to be +3 int (from canny dodge), and that you meant the int to be +3 and not +4 in the stat section?
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Just curious - how are you getting to 28 Dex? Even if starting with 20, adding points to it at 4, 8, and 12 brings it to 23, and the belt takes it to 27.
Also, am I correct in assuming that the +3 ins to AC is supposed to be +3 int (from canny dodge), and that you meant the int to be +3 and not +4 in the stat section?
I was making adjustments and messed up carrying some of them over while editing. It is what I get for trying to build characters while working.
I started with a 19 dex + 3 level increases. The belt should be +6. the belt is the single largest expense on the character who is not purchasing a weapon or armor. I also made a mistake on my power attack numbers, which I am correcting below.
For some reason I was under the impression that canny defense granted an insight bonus and was labeling it as that type.
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I corrected my errors. Updated attack profiles are below with numbers crunching.
Using DRP Olympics Guidelines and an AC of 27 (standard for CR 12)
Assuming touch of fatigue for spell combat (no damage)
Dawnflower
scimitar + 19/+17/+17/+12 (1d6+25/15-20/x2) - power attack, arcane strike, arcane pool(+1 enh/speed), black blade strike
. . . attk (+8 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +4 enh, -3 pwr, -2 spell) +7 crit confirm
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +4 enh, +2 spec, +4 pwr, +3 arc, +3 bb)
.65(28.5)+.3(2)(.95)(28.5) = 34.77
.55(28.5)+.3(2)(.9)(28.5) = 31.065
.55(28.5)+.3(2)(.9)(28.5) = 31.065
.3(28.5)+.3(2)(.65)(28.5) = 19.665
DPR = 116.565
Straight Magus
. . scimitar + 18 /+18/+18/+13(1d6+25/15-20/x2) - power attack, arcane strike, arcane pool(+1 enh/speed), black blade strike
. . . attk (+9 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +4 enh, -3 pwr, -2 spell)
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +4 enh, +2 spec, +4 pwr, +3 arc, +3 bb)
.6(28.5)+.3(2)(.85)(28.5) = 31.635
.6(28.5)+.3(2)(.85)(28.5) = 31.635
.6(28.5)+.3(2)(.85)(28.5) = 31.635
.35(28.5)+.3(2)(.6)(28.5) = 20.235
DPR = 115.14
Conclusion: the two bonus feats from Dawnflower add 1.5 DPR at the cost of 1 hp and 1 4th level spell. No bard spells due to low Cha.
Shocking grasp adds 51 DPR for straight magus, 53 DPR for the dawnflower dip.
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You don't have to hit on your first attack to discharge your shocking grasp.
Chance of missing with Dawnflower dip = .35(.45)(.45)(.7) = .0496 or about a 95% chance of discharging
Chance of missing with straight magus = .65(.4^3) = .0416 or about a 96% chance of discharging.
Straight magus has a .8% better chance of discharging, Dawnflower has a better chance of confirming the crit.
For simplicity sake I just rounded and used the middle crit confirmation value for calculating shocking grasp DPR. You really won't have much difference between the two builds.
.95(35)+.3(2)(.9)(35) = 52.15
.96(35)+.3(2)(.85)(35) = 51.45
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Ok this is my build.. please feel free to rip it apart...
Any advice would be welcome...
Toseeoto Kakita
male Tiefling Fighter (Cad) 1/ Magus (Bladebound-Fiend Flayer-Kensai) 11
LN Medium Humanoid
Init: +11; Senses: Perception +20
AC 31,Touch 22,Flat-footed 22
(+5 dex, +4 Int, +5 armor, +1 luck, +2 def, +4 nat)
Hp 100
Fort +12 Ref +15 Will +10
Spd 30
Katana (Black Blade +3): +19/+14
Katana Arcane Pool Enchanted (Black Blade +3, Speed) +19/+19/+14
<+9 bab, +6 Str, +3 weapon enchant, +1 wep. focus >
Above with Spell Combat/Spellstrike & Power Attack: +17/+14/+15/+9
<-3 power attack, -2 spell Combat>
Damage
Two-Handed d8 +27 (15-20/x2)
One-Handed d8 +21 (15-20/x2)
<Attacks preformed two-handed: +9 Str, +3 Enc, +3 Arcane Strike, +9 power attack, +2 Wep. Spec>
Most GMs allow me to do all my attacks two-handed, as there is no action for changing grips, one handed is shown just in case.
STR: 23 (+6) DEX: 20 (+5) CON: 14 (+2) INT: 16 (+4) WIS: 10 (+0) CHA: 6 (-2)
Base BAB: +9/+4
CMB:+15
CMD:37
Feats
Bonus Fighter
Furious Focus
Bonus Kensai
Weapon Pro (Katana)
Weapon Focus (Katana)
Arcane Strike
Improved critical (Katana)
Advancement
Power Attack
Armor of the Pit (+2 Natural AC)
Intensify spell (Shocking Grasp)
Weapon Specialization (Katana)
Extra Arcana: Ghost Blade
Extra Arcana: Spell Bender False Life, Protection from Energy
Arcana
Arcane Accuracy
(plus above)
Traits
Accelerated Drinker
Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
Favored Class
+11 hp
Acrobatics +12(+20)
Climb 1(+10)
Fly 2 (+10)
Knowledge (Arcane) +8(+15)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8(+15)
Knowledge (Planes) +8(+15)
Perception 12 (+15, +20 with eyes)
Spellcraft 8 (+15)
Stealth 12 (+20, 25 Armor)
Swim: 1 (+10)
Arcane Pool 7
Infernal Mortification
Cantrips
Spell Combat
Canny Defense (Ex)
Spellstrike
Black Blade
Perfect Strike
Fighter Training, Iaijutsu
Improved Spell Combat
Critical Perfection
Fighter Training
Superior Reflexes
7 Pearls of Power (1st level)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Belt +4 Dexterity and Strength
Ring of Protection +2
Cloak of Resistance +3
Eyes of the Eagle (+5 to Spot)
Headband of Intellect +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Silken Armor +4 of Shadow
Katana is a Black Blade +2
Level 0 (4)
. Arcane Mark
. detect magic
. mage hand
. read magic
Level 1 (5/day)
. shield x2
. Shocking Grasp (Intensify) x3
Level 2 (5/day)
. False Life
. Bladed Dash
. Resist Energy
. frigid touch x2
Level 3 (4/day)
. displacement
. monstrous physique I
. vampiric touch
. elemental aura
Level 4 (2/day)
. Bladed Dash, Greater
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So the difference between going dervish dance vs strength base comes out to small bonuses to accuracy, initiative and saves. Taking the improved initiative feat instead of extra arcana would have put you equal there.
The dex based comes out slightly ahead of where you would be if you used your other extra arcana for improved reflexes and is slightly more accurate.
So the difference between going dervish dance vs strength base comes out to small bonuses to accuracy, initiative and saves. Taking the improved initiative feat instead of extra arcana would have put you equal there.
The dex based comes out slightly ahead of where you would be if you used your other extra arcana for improved reflexes and is slightly more accurate.
Any tweaks you wish to suggest?
also I noticed I did not show my "spelled up" defenses.. Shield spell gets me to AC: 35 Touch/Flat-Footed: 26
I also use Accelerated Drinker to drink a portion of enlarge (I keep it in a Saki bottle with a strap.. so I have it in hand at the start of combat most of the time)
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I did not count shield into my defenses either, only mage armor. (22-24 hour duration). I also did not count my polymorph spells (alter self/monstrous physique/elemental body). All add +2 dex and small size. No change to average damage per hit, but increases accuracy by +2. Additional bonuses are dependent upon the spell. Air elemeantal adds darkvision 60', fly 60' and +2 natural armor.
You can't use enlarge, tieflings have the native outsider type, not the humanoid type. You can use the other spells I listed. Monstrous Physique II for Troll form may be more appropriate for your build. It will give you +4 strength, +4 natural armor, -2 dexterity and reach.
Your katana is listed as a +2 weapon. Black Blade becomes +3 at level 9.
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.95(35)+.3(2)(.9)(35) = 52.15
Oh I see you are for some reason having the scimitar be a x3 crit weapon?
Also, I think that we could do the 1st hit is a crit a little more exactingly.. but that's small potatoes compared to the x3 crit.
-James
No, it is listed as x2.
h(d)+tchd
h = .95 (chance of discharging spell)
d = 35 (average damage)
t = .3 (chance to threaten a crit)
c = 2 (crit multiplyer)
h = .9 (chance to confirm crit)
d = 35 (average damage)
I don't agree with the standard formula using h to represent both to-hit chance and crit confirm chance. The values are not always the same. In this case, crit focus + kensai bonuses give +7 to confirm criticals.
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How can you have a total crit chance of 36% when the weapon only has a 30% crit range? Since the spell can only discharge once, it only has a single chance to crit.
I agree that I messed up when plugging my crit multiplier into the formula. I don't usually concern myself with DPR and only calculated to see how close the to builds were. When I revamp my builds this weekend I'll make the corrections to the numbers and post the results as links. That way I can edit the underlying documents to correct any errors that may surface.
I did not count shield into my defenses either, only mage armor. (22-24 hour duration). I also did not count my polymorph spells (alter self/monstrous physique/elemental body). All add +2 dex and small size. No change to average damage per hit, but increases accuracy by +2. Additional bonuses are dependent upon the spell. Air elemeantal adds darkvision 60', fly 60' and +2 natural armor.
Crap!
Looks like im stuck with a worthless trait...
Enlarge was the only potion worth a damn at higher levels..... gurrrrr
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Shocking Grasp will only ever be once per round. (Barring certain edge cases that won't be factored into DPR calculations.)
If you hit 100% and confirm 100% you still only have a 30% threat range. There is 0% chance of delivering a Shocking Grasp on any additional attack since it has already discharged.
The chance of a critical is never going to be better than the crit chance * confirmation .3(.85) = 25.5%
The actual chance of scoring a critical hit on the posted full magus attack sequence is closer to 24% since there is still a miss chance and the final attack has lower to-hit and confirmation values.
Attk #1: chance to hit/threaten/confirm = .6(.3)(.85) = 15.3%
Attk #2: chance #1 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = .4(.6)(.3)(.85) = 6.12%
Attk #3: chance #1,2 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = (.4^2)(.6)(.3)(.85) = 2.448%
Attk #4: chance #1,2,3 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = (.4^3)(.35)(.3)(.6) = .4032%
Total crit chance = 24.2712%
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To be more precise over an extended sequence the formula would be
(1-h)^n(h)(t)(c) + (1-h)^n-1(h)(t)(c) + ..... + (1-h)^0(h)(t)(c)
h = hit chance
t = threat range
c = confirmation chance
n = number of attacks -1
Over an infinite number of attacks the value will either equal or approach t(c). My calculus is a little rusty.
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Shocking Grasp will only ever be once per round. (Barring certain edge cases that won't be factored into DPR calculations.)
If you hit 100% and confirm 100% you still only have a 30% threat range. There is 0% chance of delivering a Shocking Grasp on any additional attack since it has already discharged.
The chance of a critical is never going to be better than the crit chance * confirmation .3(.85) = 25.5%
The actual chance of scoring a critical hit on the posted full magus attack sequence is closer to 24% since there is still a miss chance and the final attack has lower to-hit and confirmation values.
Attk #1: chance to hit/threaten/confirm = .6(.3)(.85) = 15.3%
Attk #2: chance #1 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = .4(.6)(.3)(.85) = 6.12%
Attk #3: chance #1,2 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = (.4^2)(.6)(.3)(.85) = 2.448%
Attk #4: chance #1,2,3 missed and I hit/threaten/confirm = (.4^3)(.35)(.3)(.6) = .4032%Total crit chance = 24.2712%
Well that's not exactly true there. I and most of the Magi I deal with can routinely get 2-4 shocking grasps off in a single round of combat (up to 5 once you get past 10th-ish level) and that significantly changes the outcome of any combat.
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A single casting of shocking grasp can only discharge once. There are no additional chances.
If I hit on my first attack and fail to crit, the shocking grasp is done. I will not crit with that shocking grasp. Only if I miss on all previous attacks (and thus also fail to crit) is there a chance of scoring a critical hit with shocking grasp on a successive attack.
As for going through the individual attacks. I demonstrated that before I posted the formula.
Now, the chance for delivering at least 1 critical in general is much higher.
1-(.847^3 *.937) = 43.06
This formula allows for the possibility of multiple crits and crits occurring after non-critical hits, which will not work for shocking grasp.
PS: What you are multiplying out would mean that when you hit you roll again to see if it is a threat and then you roll a third time to confirm it.
This is exactly what I am doing. If I hit with an attack and fail to threaten or threaten a critical but fail to confirm, shocking grasp discharges. Chance of a critical on all successive attacks is 0% as you are no longer holding the charge.
"arcane pool(+1 enh/speed)" a minor thing - but am I missing something here.
Arcane pool bonus is +3 until Magus level 13. And speed is a +3 bonus...
And Black blade don't get +4 until lvl 13...
"arcane pool(+1 enh/speed)" a minor thing - but am I missing something here.
Arcane pool bonus is +3 until Magus level 13. And speed is a +3 bonus...
And Black blade don't get +4 until lvl 13...
You only need +3 to get to Speed... if the weapon is already enchanted (and the blade blade is +3 in this build) you can use the full +3 to add speed to the weapon.
you only need to add the base +1 if the weapon you are enchanting is not already magical.
I didn't see it listed, but his level 9 arcana was missing so I assume he took hasted assault, which allows you to spend 1 arcana to act hasted for a number of rounds equal to your int modifier. This saves you from having to blow +3 on it with your arcane pool, or having to buy an item with haste.
I didn't see it listed, but his level 9 arcana was missing so I assume he took hasted assault, which allows you to spend 1 arcana to act hasted for a number of rounds equal to your int modifier. This saves you from having to blow +3 on it with your arcane pool, or having to buy an item with haste.
True, but with only 7 points... I rather use to to boost critical damage from x2 to x3.
besides on a point for point bases.. using speed is just a better bet.
1 point can give you +3 to hit and damage or you can get speed and get an additional attack at your highest BAB which in my build is d8+26 damage with a 25% chance of being 2d8+52 or at the expenditure of a point on crit 3d8+78
I'm curious, what are the ways you can regularly get 2-4 shocking grasps out in one round? Lesser rods of quicken? Spell-storing?
I'm curious, what are the ways you can regularly get 2-4 shocking grasps out in one round? Lesser rods of quicken? Spell-storing?
You've got most of it there. I can think of a way to get 4.
Cast a spell on the round beforehand and hold the charge.(1)
Move into attack range. Take a full round action to attack and cast shocking grasp (2)
Cast shocking grasp with a quickened spell rod (Or just quickened) (3)
Deliver a shocking grasp through your spell-storing weapon (4)
If you have Critical Strike then you can get a 5th if you get a critical along the way. I'm curious though if the spell you gain from critical strike can be delivered with your weapon.
Actually that's a good question. CAN you do that with critical strike?
Just a little note. Critical Strike is once per day. So "theoretically no limit" is a bit of a stretch.
Ah. So it is. I forgot about that lovely little caveat.
Also I might be missing something here but Holding a metamagic rod and a weapon leaves no hands for the somatic components of the spell or the free hand for spell combat. So as far as I can see you can't use a metamagic rod to quicken a spell and deliver it with spellstrike...? Though I could be missing something here and there are a number of ways to get an extra limb.
But yeah holding a charge and spell storing weapon does make it possible to dump a bunch of spells into one target in one round. Something of a dev oversight I would think.
I've considered that issue in the past regarding rods. The text is rather unclear as to HOW rods are used. I suppose you simply must be holding it in order for it to affect spells that are cast. In that case, an extra limb would be needed.
Critical strike is a swift action, quickend spells is a swift action. So max 4.
Or Get more limbs - through race, alchemist, what ever and add more spellstoring.
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I didn't see it listed, but his level 9 arcana was missing so I assume he took hasted assault, which allows you to spend 1 arcana to act hasted for a number of rounds equal to your int modifier. This saves you from having to blow +3 on it with your arcane pool, or having to buy an item with haste.
The kensai trades his level 9 arcana for crital perfection.
In a group setting, I would just cast haste. Bumping all the melee is the best option for 3rd level spells.
In isolation from everything else: I was using my arcane pool to give my black blade the speed property and using my wbl for a higher dexterity. Haste is also too restricted on usage for factoring into DPR while a bonus granted by arcane pool is not. (I am trying to be conservative in my assumptions.)
James: you are right. I see where I was making my error.
Agreed about haste. I find myself in the position of being the party haste bot anyway, especially since I don't have to lose much action economy for it. At 12th you should have 5 3rd level slots, so it's not a bad way to spend it if you have people in your party who can benefit. A lot of these discussion occur in a complete vacuum of common gaming sense in regards to teamwork, stats or super outlandish race/class combinations.
Those character examples are kinda funny. 5 charisma? 6 charisma for a bard? If I were running it I would have rejected both characters outright. Some realistic examples would be a lot more helpful.
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Pure Magus
Human Bladebound Kensai 12
NG Medium Humanoid
Init: +14; Senses: Perception +15
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
How are you getting a 28 Dex?
At BEST by level 12 you can have a 27 Dex (18 Base, +2 racial, +4 from the belt and +3 from leveling)
Additionaly, you can't get a 5 Charisma as a Human in PFS, which I thought was part of the "rules" that were being compared with these builds.
Edit: I hate not noticing an entire page before I post... I see how you are getting the 28 Dex, but still no 5 Cha
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Ok this is my build.. please feel free to rip it apart...
Any advice would be welcome...
Toseeoto Kakita
male Tiefling Fighter (Cad) 1/ Magus (Bladebound-Fiend Flayer-Kensai) 11
You can't be both Bladebound and Fiend Flayer archtypes as they both effect the Arcane Pool. (True, they effect it in different ways, but the rules state they can't change the same feature.)
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Edit: I hate not noticing an entire page before I post... I see how you are getting the 28 Dex, but still no 5 Cha
I really wanted a tiefling, but could not afford to give up the human bonus feat. I adjusted my int back down when I moved over to human but forgot to adjust my cha back up.
I stayed with human on the dervish dip to keep the comparison as close as possible, though it would have gained far more than it gave up by dropping a feat and going tiefling. Basically, with dervish I could have given up critical focus for +1 intelligence + tiefling racial. My critial confirmation would suffer a -3 hit, but I would gain skills, +1 AC, +1 initiative and +1 flat-footed damage, resistances, darkvision, etc.
As for low cha on a bard dip: the purpose of the dip was to gain a feat advantage. Spellcasting and bardic performance were strictly secondary.
For real characters: the magus I actually play has a 12 cha and has invested feats into improving his diplomacy and perception. His DPR will never begin to approach my theorycrafted builds, but he is much more fun to play.
besides on a point for point bases.. using speed is just a better bet.
It's a 12th level character that can cast haste. Get boots of speed and use your pool to enhance the weapon.
-James
and waste an action to cast haste... cutting down my damage...
my first round of combat is drink potion as move action, cast shield and move in.
also look at my items I spent every gold on other items.. speed boots would reduce my effectiveness overall.
Speed on your weapon when you have high strength gives you more damage and thus more chanced for a crit which as a kensai can become x3 damage.. aka 'stupid' damage.
I've considered that issue in the past regarding rods. The text is rather unclear as to HOW rods are used. I suppose you simply must be holding it in order for it to affect spells that are cast. In that case, an extra limb would be needed.
or a tail....