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I'll be honest, I'd really like to see a Big Damn Heroes campaign.You should definitely check out Jade Regent then!
oh I will be =-D
I'm a fan of everything Paizo has put out so far about the only thing I wouldn't run is Second Darkness but I'd still steal liberally from it for something home-brewed =-D
... one where a paladin's hardest choice is "longsword/shield or greatsword?"My opinion: That'd make a pretty boring game for a paladin character to roleplay in.
Part of being a paladin is being tempted. How will you ever know your'e truly righteous and legitimately Lawful and Good if you never have to put those convictions to the test?
If every AP forces that choice, then there's a significant problem here. Your only real choices in many groups will play out as:
1. Don't choose against the code... and try to convince everyone in the party to do what you want- thereby reinforcing other players' hatred of Paladins because they force how everyone else must play the game.
2. Don't choose against the code... and roll a new character because your Paladin goes off on a side quest or can't play with the main group any more.
3. Fall as a paladin and lose your powers. (Can be mitigated if you immediately transition into an antipaladin or something... but did you really want to play as an antipaladin)
4. Willful ignorance.
Either the player's fun is destroyed because he can't do what he wants; or the group's fun is decreased because they can't do what they want; or the paladin just <wink> wink 'ignores' things. The situation just seems ripe for player on player conflict- which is only okay in some groups but not in all or I would posit, even most since it can destroy an entire campaign.
This seems to be a design problem either with an AP or with the class itself.
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Maybe a 'hard choice' can work in an AP, but it would have to be geared toward the Paladin itself rather than an issue to affect the entire group. That is, paladin must choose *personally* to deal with a devil--and this could make an encounter easier (lower AC by 4 on main villain); or paladin could refuse and suffer a level drain of one... even then it's a bit questionable mechanically since it seems that the Paladin only really suffers negatives and few rewards. I enjoy playing RP characters that are very poor mechanically--but in a group where everyone else is optimized I have enough trouble contributing usefully. (E.g. my damage/round would be 8 and the average of the rest of the party would be 26 due to proper feat choice). So I personally can live with negatives; but it's not fair to expect people to choose paladin where one only plays one to be punished. Paladins aren't self-flagellators--they're heroes.
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A paladin would work VERY well in Jade Regent. (Provided you're willing to put up with some sassy Chaotic Good NPCs now and then!)Big damn hero fan here too...
If we are doing an AP where the Paladin will not be appropriate how about following that with an AP where the Paladin is very appropriate?
Seems logical to me...
Count me as someone who wants to see the captain of the sunset ship in the pirate AP, then. Yeah for hard choices!
Like everyone else, I havent seen the AP or its choices. But as for paladins, I'm pretty sure Captain Blood started as a paladin (see movie of same name, classic good guy who turned pirate). I dont think it is impossible to be a paladin and a pirate, just very difficult. But that doesnt mean its bad. The hard part, likely, wont be being a paladin but that everyone else will want to be non-paladin-like and that will lead to party conflict.
Like everyone else, I havent seen the AP or its choices. But as for paladins, I'm pretty sure Captain Blood started as a paladin (see movie of same name, classic good guy who turned pirate). I dont think it is impossible to be a paladin and a pirate, just very difficult. But that doesnt mean its bad. The hard part, likely, wont be being a paladin but that everyone else will want to be non-paladin-like and that will lead to party conflict.
Honestly I've felt the paladin code needed relaxed to that of a cleric or knight since 3.0. The reason the paladin had such a hardcore code and stat requirements was because he was boss in the pre 3.x days. Truth be told he's cool but he's in line with everyone else now. If his code was more combination knight/cleric then it would be ok and he'd be just as good as a cleric in the ap (that is become a paladin of a god who is ok with the buckles you swash). Honestly renaming them champions and making them the warrior sect of their clerical orders is how I think I might do in the future heavily reducing their roles but increasing everyone fun!
Ps: pirates!
Creative Director
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Consonance then. You get the idea. (rolls eyes)There is no alliteration. 'sk' and 'sh' sound quite distinct.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Says the man who insists a degree in English (or something similar) is vital for any Paizo developer?
:b
Also vital? Diplomacy. Attempts to publicly shame or annoy your would-be boss are not a good way to ensure a position as a developer.
(In my defense, I used the word "alliteration" because I was firing of a quick reply to Zaister, who used the word alliteration in his own post, and so the error crept in by subconscious messageboard hypnosis, which after midnight, becomes more effective on my increasingly sleep-addled mind.)
(In my defense, I used the word "alliteration" because I was firing of a quick reply to Zaister, who used the word alliteration in his own post, and so the error crept in by subconscious messageboard hypnosis, which after midnight, becomes more effective on my increasingly sleep-addled mind.)
Guilty as charged. In my defense, though, I don't have a degree in English, and it's a second language for me, too.
Honestly I've felt the paladin code needed relaxed to that of a cleric or knight since 3.0. The reason the paladin had such a hardcore code and stat requirements was because he was boss in the pre 3.x days. Truth be told he's cool but he's in line with everyone else now. If his code was more combination knight/cleric then it would be ok and he'd be just as good as a cleric in the ap (that is become a paladin of a god who is ok with the buckles you swash). Honestly renaming them champions and making them the warrior sect of their clerical orders is how I think I might do in the future heavily reducing their roles but increasing everyone fun!
Ps: pirates!
Re: Your solution for Paladins- that was something I considered with my above comments on perhaps either the class itself has a significant flaw or if they cannot be played, then it would be the AP's problem.
I think changing the requirement to be a Champion of a God and that God's ideals would be a good step in the right direction.
The major potential issue would be that the problem of one player dictating what the others can do (or blindly not seeing what they are doing) remains. But, if as you state, the code isn't an un-bending one- that could work.
In fact, If Paladins only received certain negatives until they atone somehow, I think that could work a lot better than the current situation. So the Paladin is hurt if his code isn't followed, but the Paladin does not completely 'fall'. It might allow the Paladin to 'fit in' better with a non all-LG/NG party.
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Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.
How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
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Creative Director
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Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
Neither of which really fits in well to a 6 part Adventure Path model. :-)
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I would like to add my voice to those looking for a more traditionally "heroic" AP. Even if it means agreeing with that other Neil S ;)
I feel that there may be more APs which work well for a Good party than Jason originally pointed out. However, a Path which had Good characters as its primary focus, but accomodated the occasional anti-hero through supplementary material, would be a welcome change. And while Jade Regent may satisfy this on one level, its other major focii (journey, Tien Xia) may limit its appeal with some players.
(In my defense, I used the word "alliteration" because I was firing of a quick reply to Zaister, who used the word alliteration in his own post, and so the error crept in by subconscious messageboard hypnosis, which after midnight, becomes more effective on my increasingly sleep-addled mind.)
If it helps, the words don't actually have to sound similar for them to be an alliteration. You just need to have the same letter.
al·lit·er·a·tion/əˌlitəˈrāSHən/Noun: The occurrence of the same letter or sound at the beginning of adjacent or closely connected words.
Emphasis mine. Don't let the critics get you down, James!
Neither of which really fits in well to a 6 part Adventure Path model. :-)Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
It works great if the villian already has the stick and a gem or so... Puts a little rush on things as well...
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Consonance then. You get the idea. (rolls eyes)There is no alliteration. 'sk' and 'sh' sound quite distinct.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Says the man who insists a degree in English (or something similar) is vital for any Paizo developer?
:b
Also vital? Diplomacy. Attempts to publicly shame or annoy your would-be boss are not a good way to ensure a position as a developer.
(In my defense, I used the word "alliteration" because I was firing of a quick reply to Zaister, who used the word alliteration in his own post, and so the error crept in by subconscious messageboard hypnosis, which after midnight, becomes more effective on my increasingly sleep-addled mind.)
I'm only teasing, James, sorry if I bugged you.
In my own defence: I'm in the middle of marking a lot of essays, so I'm heavily in touch with my inner pedant at the moment.
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Creative Director
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I would like to add my voice to those looking for a more traditionally "heroic" AP. Even if it means agreeing with that other Neil S ;)
I feel that there may be more APs which work well for a Good party than Jason originally pointed out. However, a Path which had Good characters as its primary focus, but accomodated the occasional anti-hero through supplementary material, would be a welcome change. And while Jade Regent may satisfy this on one level, its other major focii (journey, Tien Xia) may limit its appeal with some players.
Turns out that since we generally throw multiple themes into every Adventure Path, chances are good that whatever we would bundle the "truly heroic" AP with may limit its appeal to some players. Heck, a "truly heroic" AP will limit its appeal to some players. That's the nature of the game.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Turns out that since we generally throw multiple themes into every Adventure Path, chances are good that whatever we would bundle the "truly heroic" AP with may limit its appeal to some players. Heck, a "truly heroic" AP will limit its appeal to some players. That's the nature of the game.I would like to add my voice to those looking for a more traditionally "heroic" AP. Even if it means agreeing with that other Neil S ;)
I feel that there may be more APs which work well for a Good party than Jason originally pointed out. However, a Path which had Good characters as its primary focus, but accomodated the occasional anti-hero through supplementary material, would be a welcome change. And while Jade Regent may satisfy this on one level, its other major focii (journey, Tien Xia) may limit its appeal with some players.
All true. No AP will satisfy everyone, and there will be those who aren't keen on the Mega-Hero angle, just as there have been folks who for any number of reasons haven't fancied whichever one(s) of the previous APs. I've never been one to suggest a change in the general tone and flavor of Paizo APs; all I'm suggesting is that you consider adding a Mega-Hero AP to the list of themes that are waiting their turn. Once Mega-Hero has its turn, Gritty Business As Usual APs return.
Seriously though, if you think that going Mega-Hero is a potential negative in terms of sales or customer perception, I'd think that shifting the other half of the equation (i.e., the setting) to something more broadly popular (i.e., "Western" fantasy vs. an "exotic"/non-Western-in-terms-of-Earth-analogue location) would be a good way of hedging your bet, so to speak. Fans wanting a Mega-Hero AP would buy it, and fans wanting a "traditional fantasy" AP would buy it. So yes, while all APs have multiple themes, I'd contend that some themes have broader appeal than others.
My contention is perhaps best expressed as a formula:
(Mega-Hero) + ('traditional' medieval fantasy campaign setting) = EPIC WIN!!! :)
There are plenty of settings and themes you can use to enable the Mega-Hero approach, be they dragons, mega-dungeons, the Worldwound or Lastwall Crusade, or any number of others. Whether you and the crew at Central Command agree that it'd be an Epic Win, I'd think you might concede that there are many highly viable options for creating a Truly Heroic AP that would be internally consistent with the world of Golarion and even still have room for shades of gray around the spine of Hardcore Heroism.
The heart of the matter is that it would be an AP where it's not just possible to play a True Hero (hey, you can try it in ANY campaign), but where its actively rewarded. Instead of an AP having room inside of it for heroism, it is an AP that is about heroism.
At the risk of sounding like I'm snarking at ye olde Creative Directore, allow me to invert your earlier statement about paladins in APs. That is, in a Truly Heroic AP, instead of the paladin or other devoted do-gooders, it is the evil/scoundrel PC who is forced to make tough ethical choices; since otherwise how do they know if they're truly evil/scummy, if they are never forced to really put their commitment to evil and villainy to the test? Evil has principles too, and you could certainly put in sidebars about handling evil or wholly selfish/mercenary/backstabberous characters in a campaign not best suited to them, or how to handle intraparty conflict that could arise around such issues as they play through a campaign where making heroic choices and sacrifices may be required. Everyone should have a chance to make tough choices. In most APs, that's the good guys making those choices to get along with the less savory PCs; in this AP, those roles would be reversed.
(btw, a passing thought just now in my head is that this could also be an interesting AP to experiment with some type of Honor mechanic as a supplement to or replacement for some of the traditional money & magic rewards of adventuring. It's a thought.)
Frankly, my favorite thing about Pathfinder APs is how many shades of gray there are. I got tired of the constant Whitehats and heroes years ago. I can enjoy that sort of thing a lot more when there's more variety in the gameplay.
What makes the Pathfinder APs work for me is that virtually any one of the adventures can allow for any sort of party. With only the slightest modification almost any of them (Second Darkness is the only exception in my opinion) can be made for absolute heroes who are there to save the day or dread evil bastards who are trying to seize power and riches for themselves. Best of all, there's lots of room for elements of each in between.
There's been a lot of talk of how it's set up for the good guys to deal with the bad and there's some truth to that but as a DM, I don't think it'd be all that difficult to change things so it doesn't necessarily follow that way.
Then again, I come from a background of playing homebrew campaigns in homebrew worlds. It's only with Pathfinder that I've finally found modules and campaigns that actually allow me the freedom to use established work for my own purposes. I imagine it'd be a lot harder to modify an existing AP if you're not used to forging your own path.
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Neither of which really fits in well to a 6 part Adventure Path model. :-)Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
OTOH, there is a certain three-part book that's Runelord-related...
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OTOH, there is a certain three-part book that's Runelord-related...Neither of which really fits in well to a 6 part Adventure Path model. :-)Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
I feel dumb for missing the reference. Little help? ::goes back to lurking::
Zutha's Gluttonous Tome.
Wow. And at least 14 months. Perhaps 20. Or 26.
James, please make it the follow up to Skull and Shackles! I keep wondering each cycle how you're going to top the last AP, and I've yet to be disappointed. And this would be no exception, I'm sure.
OTOH, there is a certain three-part book that's Runelord-related...We already have plans for that one, so it's off-limits.
This is good news to me...
All true. No AP will satisfy everyone, and there will be those who aren't keen on the Mega-Hero angle, just as there have been folks who for any number of reasons haven't fancied whichever one(s) of the previous APs. I've never been one to suggest a change in the general tone and flavor of Paizo APs; all I'm suggesting is that you consider adding a Mega-Hero AP to the list of themes that are waiting their turn. Once Mega-Hero has its turn, Gritty Business As Usual APs return.
To back up your theorizing with data collected from Pathfinder players, just take a look at how much the Andoran faction dominates the five factions in PFS from Seasons 0 to 2. I mean, I guess it could be because of the slave-freeing aspect, but from what I've seen, the major draw is that it is the faction that best fits "Big Darn Heroes" and is least likely to have morally ambiguous missions. I'm guessing it loses a lot of market share to the new good-aligned faction starting in Season 3. So while I definitely enjoy the nuance of having many shades of gray in my settings, it seems there's a serious market (if PFS is any good indicator for the APs, which it might not be) for a highly heroic AP.
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I feel dumb for missing the reference. Little help? ::goes back to lurking::OTOH, there is a certain three-part book that's Runelord-related...Neither of which really fits in well to a 6 part Adventure Path model. :-)Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?Probably. Not a Rod of Seven Parts though, since that's not open content.How about the Runelords stave? A stave with 7 magical gems each representing one of the sin magics of the Runelords. Each powerful but when combined with the stave... :)
Technically that wouldn't be a rod of seven parts but a staff of eight parts. :)
The Gluttonous Tome is stated up in the Magic of Thassilon bonus download to Pathfinder #5.
Do you have a link for this? My search-fu is weak today (as usual).
-- david
Papa.DRB
The Gluttonous Tome is stated up in the Magic of Thassilon bonus download to Pathfinder #5.
Wow, does this bring back memories. About 20 years ago, before it disbanded, we had a gaming group called Seekers of the Crystal Monolith that held a one day con every year about groups of adventures searching for the seven rainbow colored parts of a staff (ROY G BIV anyone!).
I have some old notes because I can't remember who had the complete set of notes. I had been thinking of someday putting together a set of inter-connected adventures to find them all with a secondary adventuring party being the main protagonist. Hmmm.. Maybe this summer I will get the chance.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Could we ever see "Rod of the Seven Parts" type of Adventure? Find the pieces save the world?
I just hope Corsair will be in print by the time the first module in the AP rolls out.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I find the use of the phrase "Big Damn Heroes" in this thread a bit ironic, since in many ways, Captain Reynolds and his crew would NOT live up to the "pure heroes" aspect that some of you are wishing for. They are, after all, smugglers and criminals.
Is there some connection between that phrase and the Firefly show? I've only seen 3 or 4 episodes of it, so maybe I missed that connection (although looking at the TV tropes page for the phrase I see them right there on the top of the page).
I variously used terms like "Ultra Heroic" or "Truly Heroic" and "unambiguously, unreservedly, unapologetically Good Guys" and stuff like that. Maybe that gives a clearer notion, if the Firefly reference causes confusion.
From the eps that I saw, I'd probably rate them somewhere in the CG zone alignment-wise, but I'm certainly no expert on the show.
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Is there some connection between that phrase and the Firefly show? I've only seen 3 or 4 episodes of it, so maybe I missed that connection (although looking at the TV tropes page for the phrase I see them right there on the top of the page).
They originated the phrase. Take a look at this clip. Minor spoilers the episode "Safe".
From the eps that I saw, I'd probably rate them somewhere in the CG zone alignment-wise, but I'm certainly no expert on the show.
For alignments, I'd go with the following:
Malcolm - CN with good tendencies
Zoe - CN with good tendencies
Wash - CN with good tendencies
Jayne - CN
Kaylee - CG
Inara - LN
Simon - CG
River - CN with crazy tendencies
Book - NG
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Is there some connection between that phrase and the Firefly show? I've only seen 3 or 4 episodes of it, so maybe I missed that connection (although looking at the TV tropes page for the phrase I see them right there on the top of the page).They originated the phrase. Take a look at this clip. Minor spoilers the episode "Safe".
From the eps that I saw, I'd probably rate them somewhere in the CG zone alignment-wise, but I'm certainly no expert on the show.For alignments, I'd go with the following:
Malcolm - CN with good tendencies
Zoe - CN with good tendencies
Wash - CN with good tendencies
Jayne - CN
Kaylee - CG
Inara - LN
Simon - CG
River - CN with crazy tendencies
Book - NG
This all depends upon how 'evil' you think the empire they're kicking against is. They pretty much heroically save the day and do good deeds in every episode. And the only person who needs persuading is Jayne.
Perhaps your threshold for good is different to mine. I would put everyone at CG apart from Simon (NG) and Jayne CN.
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Is there some connection between that phrase and the Firefly show? I've only seen 3 or 4 episodes of it, so maybe I missed that connection (although looking at the TV tropes page for the phrase I see them right there on the top of the page).They originated the phrase. Take a look at this clip. Minor spoilers the episode "Safe".
From the eps that I saw, I'd probably rate them somewhere in the CG zone alignment-wise, but I'm certainly no expert on the show.For alignments, I'd go with the following:
Malcolm - CN with good tendencies
Zoe - CN with good tendencies
Wash - CN with good tendencies
Jayne - CN
Kaylee - CG
Inara - LN
Simon - CG
River - CN with crazy tendencies
Book - NG
I would disagree with Wash and Zoe. I think Wash is CG, he was against killing people and was always pretty nice. Zoe to me comes off as LN, just not in agreement with the current government.
I would love to see a mendev AP, weather it is shiny white hatness of good or greyish heros. Funny thing about the world wound is that I can conceivable create a PC who is an LE follower of Asmadeus who is there for killing demons, as Asmadeus is a devil and devils hate demons.
but Mendev is cool, a crusading lands are always neat. Though to be honest I am not excited about the jade regent AP, not because it is asian themed, but because there are so many regions yet unexplored, ie geb/nex/mana wastes, taldor, last wall, and so on. I want to see APs set there!
Though a pirate AP is intresting