The crit range.
The crit range matters a lot. Even more when things like Keen are commonly added.
The more you level up, the more the crits matter over the damage dice, because a lot of bonuses are applied, and/or these bonuses increase (greater strenght, challenge or smite scaling up, power attack, and so one).
So damage-wise, the 2d4 crit range weapons like falchions (18-20 base critical) and the 2d4/x4 weapons like scythe (threat 20, but x4 critical damage) take over compared to the 2d6 19-20/x2 greatsword, or the d12 20/x3 greataxe.
The crit range and multiplier is such a greater advantage over losing a damage dice, that in high level those who didn't take the Falcata take a x4 or a 18-20 weapon.
There is no reason to get greatsword or a greataxe sadly, unless you go for vital strikes + large size or enlrarge person. And even that, the fact that VS is not scaling makes it a joke of a feat.
In absence of any other effects, the greatsword does more damage per round than the falchion. However once critical-based effects come into play, the falchion can become better. Some examples:-
Improved critical
Keen
Icy burst (and the other energy bursts)
Critical feats
The other major factor is that miscellaneous bonuses get multiplied by crits. So things such as power attack and str mods matter more once your bring in crit calculations. Those crit calculations become even more important when you're looking at 15-20 crit ranges.
So in the troll thread that was about how rogues sucked someone made the statement that the falchion was a good two handed weapon to use. Why is that? Rolling D4s kinda suck? Or does the expanded crit range make that big of a difference?
Considering just the damage of the base weapon itself a greatsword will almost* always win out. While a greatsword will typically do about one-third more base damage even after accounting for the extra crits that falchion does. Remember that is just base damage, so you are only giving up about 1 point of damage per swing. Now with the right choice of feats giving up that single point of damage might be worth it.
*I say almost always because eventually with a high enough bonus to damage (+39, if I did the math correctly) the extra critical hits will overcome the x3 damage and extra base damage. So, if you are a 20th-level character with a +5 weapon, power attack, and a 38 Strength then a falchion is your weapon of choice.
Falchion 2-8, avg 5 dmg.
2h Sword 2-12, avg 7 dmg.
So, as soon as the Falchion's extra crit avg dmg exceeds +2 dmg, the Greatsword wins, not counting Critical feats.
That occurs when you have Impr crit/Keen and +20 to fixed dmg (10% more crits. +20 dmg with a 2h weapon is acheivable regularly by level 10.
As avg dmg rises, the falchion becomes better and better. And since Critical feats come from Crits, and not from dmg, any weapon with a higher crit range is preferable..
==Aelryinth
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Falchion 2-8, avg 5 dmg.
2h Sword 2-12, avg 7 dmg.So, as soon as the Falchion's extra crit avg dmg exceeds +2 dmg, the Greatsword wins, not counting Critical feats.
That occurs when you have Impr crit/Keen and +20 to fixed dmg (10% more crits. +20 dmg with a 2h weapon is acheivable regularly by level 10.
As avg dmg rises, the falchion becomes better and better. And since Critical feats come from Crits, and not from dmg, any weapon with a higher crit range is preferable..
==Aelryinth
Yup. Those numbers are a rule of thumb that's close enough for any kind of use you want to make of it. Without getting into too much math there's also expected fight lengths and rare DR situations where the falchion pulls ahead before +20 even before you consider critical feats.
Of course this all depends on what kind of opposition you're looking at. Toe to toe with the BBEG or a lot of normal encounters? Most of the time when we do these math exercises we assume a long time frame (many rounds of fighting) to determine which weapon is better. In a lot of mid-level average CR encounters against multiple enemies a raging, vital striking barbarian will average very close to killing an enemy in one non-crit blow. She wants the weapon that does more damage on a non-crit. Advantage greatsword.
It's really going to vary game to game.
In my own games, I tend to run encounters where the PCs are facing lots of opponents. For example, 12 draugr vs 5 PCs and 5 NPCs, occured in the first game I had with a new group last month.
In those sorts of fights, crits are not really all that important. You're going to want more base damage.
The final 'boss' of the fight was a 'boss' draugr, who had 3 times the hp. Going up against him, the crits finished him.
If your GM does lots of singleton enemy encounters, you want crits. If he does most encounters as multiple enemies, you're better off with higher base damage, especially if he's partial to DR.
dice rarely matter
what does is how often you hit, how often you crit, how much static damage you hit
falchion > great sword in most situations
THOUGH
given that combats in PF last so little time, it does make vital strike quite useful
Why has nobody suggested the Elven Curve Blade yet?
'Cause you need a feat or an elf for it?
Yes, the feat is not worth it and if you are an Elf you should melt faces from 200' away and not fiddle with steel sticks.
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Yes, the feat is not worth it and if you are an Elf you should melt faces from 200' away and not fiddle with steel sticks.
Or be using a bow. Or Two-Weapon Fighting as a Rogue. There are good non-spellcaster Elf builds...but they're all Dex based and Finesseable or not, the Elven Curveblade tends not to be a good weapon for them.
Though it is somewhat better than the Falchion...just not enough to make up for the downsides of being an Elf as a Str based melee character, or to be worth a Feat.
I need to get this printed on t-shirts, I really do.
GO FALCHION OR GO HOME!
Why has nobody suggested the Elven Curve Blade yet?'Cause you need a feat or an elf for it?
Half-elf with Ancestral Weapon alternate racial trait?
(Of course, if your only reason for going Half-elf is the proficiency, you might as well go human and use the extra feat.)
So things such as power attack and str mods matter more once your bring in crit calculations. Those crit calculations become even more important when you're looking at 15-20 crit ranges.If there are no special critical effects, high Str and Power Attack will not make the falchion better than the greatsword. The falchion will only be better if critical-specific effects occur.
WTF??? Bonus damage from power attack does multiply.
2D4 vs 2D6
Minimum: Same
Average: 5 vs 7
Maximum: 8 vs 12
So on average you lose 2 points of damage per hit. But you gain a 5% greater chance of hit critical, barging confirmation.
After keen or improved critical, 15-20 vs 17-20, this increased to a 10% greater chance of getting a critical.
Assuming a 15 will hit the target, that is a 30% change to get a critical hit vs. a 20%.
Bonus strength damage, bonus power attack damage, and weapon training are multiplied with critical hits.
Yep.
A sword +3, Power attack 3 for 9, Str 22 for +9, and weapon spec +2 gets you to +23 without a problem.
So, falchion avg 28, greatsword avg 30.
TRUE avg, 28 + 30% of 28 vs 30 +20% of 30.
28 + 8.4 > 30+6. Not by much, but that's okay. And this is doable about level 10. As the fixed bonus increases, falchion gets better at .3 per extra point of dmg.
==Aelryinth
After keen or improved critical, 15-20 vs 17-20, this increased to a 10% greater chance of getting a critical.
Assuming a 15 will hit the target, that is a 30% change to get a critical hit vs. a 20%.
Bonus strength damage, bonus power attack damage, and weapon training are multiplied with critical hits.
It's 10 basis point increase in the chance of getting a critical threat. (I know what you meant, but the actual percentage increase in getting a threat is 50% in both cases.)
It's 10 basis point increase in the chance of getting a critical threat. (I know what you meant, but the actual percentage increase in getting a threat is 50% in both cases.)
Please explain. I don't understand. Yes both increase by 50%, but on a roll of a 20 sided die you have a 30% chance of threatening a critical with a keen Falchion. Each number on a 20 sided die has a 5% chance of getting rolled at any given roll. So with a critical on a 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20. That is a six possible numbers getting a (6x5=) 30%.
Please explain. I don't understand. Yes both increase by 50%, but on a roll of a 20 sided die you have a 30% chance of threatening a critical with a keen Falchion. Each number on a 20 sided die has a 5% chance of getting rolled at any given roll. So with a critical on a 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20. That is a six possible numbers getting a (6x5=) 30%.
It's 10 basis point increase in the chance of getting a critical threat. (I know what you meant, but the actual percentage increase in getting a threat is 50% in both cases.)
It's a very tiny bit of mathematical pedantry. If you deal with percentage based statistics for a living, it's also right up there with "never uses commas correctly" in terms of irritation. :)
The comparison you're making is a comparison of basis points.
30%-20%=10%, or a 10 basis point increase.
30%/20%=150%, or a 50% increase
Both are correct.
However...without Improved Critical:
15%-10%=5%, or a 5 basis point increase.
15%/10%=150%, or still a 50% increase.
You are using a mathematical term in a way that makes sense in context, but is technically incorrect.
What you refer to as a percentage chance of getting a critical threat is technically a 30 basis point chance of getting a critical threat.
The actual percentage chance of getting a critical is the basis point chance times the critical confirmation percentage.
I know EXACTLY what you were saying, and aside from terminological pedantry, you are correct. This is maybe one of the handful of areas outside of finance and statistical science where basis point increase versus percentage increase sorta kinda matters.
In the interest of correctness, the to-hit and target AC does indeed play in a minor role due to crit confirmations and AC occasionally reaching into the crit range. Because crit does not mean auto-hit, only nat 20 means auto-hit.
So if you're up against monsters that you have to roll a 19 to hit, then the numbers will shift towards the greatsword. Haven't done the math to see whether it swings it over though.
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The real problem is any melee character. That is made by some one with half a brain. Will hit on a 5 or better on there first attack VS. any CR +4 there fighting. And some will even need less then that. The reason for this is to get there 2nd, and 3rd attacks to hit. Most melee classes can do this and power attack at the same time. So the Falchion is going to be a better weapon. Great Sword is better for levels 1-5 where the dice damage is more inporatant becous your static damage hase not improved enough for the falchion to be better yet. Past level 6 you have Str, Enchantment, and enough other sorces of damage. That falchion becomes the better weapon to use becous you are no longer using the base dice for your primary damage.
A Th Weapon +3, Power attack 3 for 9, Str 22 for +9, and weapon spec +2 gets you to +23 dmg without a problem.
So, falchion avg 28, greatsword avg 30.
TRUE avg w crits, 28 + 30% of 28 vs 30 +20% of 30.
28 + 8.4 > 30+6. Not by much, but that's okay. And this is doable about level 10. As the fixed bonus increases, falchion gets better at .3 per extra point of dmg.
At higher levels, where crit feats come about when you crit, a higher threat level is even more important.
==Aelryinth
In 2011, when this thread was created, the advantage might have been with the falchion, but I'd argue it's swung back toward the greatsword provided you make the weapon work for you (barbarian levels, Divine Fighting Technique, Vital Strike chain, Enlarge+Long Arm + Lunge + Combat Reflexes = butt-tons of AoOs + Vital Strike). (There is also a DFT covering falchions, but it requires worshipping a chaotic evil deity, thereby restricting alignment options more than Gorum would in campaigns where being an evil PC is not allowed.)
Q. Is anything in the bestiary immune to Vital Strike damage? (Despite the implication of the feat's name, it's not precision damage...)
Not specifically, AFAIK.
(Looks like only the first attack of opportunity after your turn gets the Vital Strike bonus. Still a really nice technique, though.)
If you're always full-attacking, the butchering axe is best.
If you're usually stuck moving and standard-attacking (but also routinely get AoOs), then greatsword is best.
If you're a high-level paladin smiting evil outsiders/dragons/undead, falchion is best...although scimitar/rapier/katana/etc might be even better because you'll keep a shield and can use your weapon in grapples, and the extra 0.5x+ additional damage from two-handing will pale in comparison to contributions to numerical damage from paladin level x2 bonuses.
Gorum's DFT specifically requires a greatsword; you won't get your freebie Vital Strikes with any other weapon.