Swashbuckler base class

[magnuskn]

Dabbler wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I honestly don't have an idea what you are talking about currently.

When I get five minutes I'll dig out the stats that I used and post them up here, and we can also plug in your swashbuckler and see how he sizes up. I think I'm using different assumptions than you on the builds of the classes - not saying either are wrong, but when you test something the more data, the better.

Gladly. I'll be happy to see how he stacks up with other classes, so far I've only done the Fighter comparison, since it seems to be the baseline.

[kingtalktoomuch]

I've looked at several conversations about Swashbucklers, and I'm hopping in here mostly because I can tell it's still active ;)

Magnuskn, I think your build looks fine, my only real criticism would be just to say it seems pretty involved, build ideas I've tried to come up with didn't take that long to describe. But maybe I'm just lazy, or less creative than you are.

For my two coppers I'd go off of the Swashbuckler class written up in Tome of Secrets. I'd call it the best version of the idea I've seen in a published product. I'll spell out the high points, since that one doesn't seem to have been brought up in this thread yet.

Tome of Secrets Swashbuckler:

1:1 BAB, good Fort and Ref save, d10 HD, 4+Int skills

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A
swashbuckler is proficient with all simple
and martial weapons and light armor.

Evade (Ex): A swashbuckler is a fluid
combatant, relying on quickness rather
than heavy armor to deflect blows. When
wearing no or light armor, the swashbuckler
adds his Evade bonus to his armor class.
This is considered a Dodge bonus and
whenever the swashbuckler is denied his
Dexterity bonus to armor class he also loses
his Evade bonus.
Evade may be substituted for the Dodge
feat as a prerequisite for other feats (for
example, a swashbuckler with Evade +1
need not take the Dodge feat in order to
select the Mobility feat).

Weapon Finesse (Ex): While proficient in all
martial weapons, dexterous swashbucklers
are particularly effective with light weapons.
The swashbuckler gets weapon finesse as
a bonus feat.

Thrust (Ex): At 2nd level, the swashbuckler
learns how to exploit an opening, dealing
extra damage. The swashbuckler may
thrust whenever his opponent is denied her
Dexterity bonus to her armor class (whether
the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or
not) or when he flanks his opponent. This extra
damage is indicated on the Swashbuckler
Table. Should the swashbuckler score a
critical hit with a thrust, this extra damage is
not multiplied.
A swashbuckler may only thrust with a
piercing melee weapon that is covered
under the weapon finesse feat. The thrust
bonus stacks with the rogue’s sneak attack
and similar abilities.
[Thrust starts at 1d6, and adds a d6 every 3 levels after]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level the swashbuckler
retains his Dexterity bonus to armor class even
when he is considered flat-footed.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level and every 3 levels
thereafter, the swashbuckler gains a bonus feat
from the following list:
Blind-Fight, Catcht Off-Guard, Combat Expertise,
Combat Reflexes, Dazzling Display, Deadly
Stroke, Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon
Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater
Weapon Specialization, Improved Disarm,
Improved Critical, Improved Feint, Improved
Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon
Fighting, Improved Vital Strike, Improvised
Weapon Mastery, Intimidating Prowess, Lightning
Stance, Mobility, Quick Draw, Spring Attack,Throw
Anything, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon
Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Vital Strike, Weapon
Focus, Weapon Specialization, Whirlwind Attack,
Wind Stance.
The swashbuckler must meet all prerequisites in
order to select a bonus feat.

Evasion (Ex): At 5th level the swashbuckler is
adept at avoiding unusual attacks. If he makes a
successful Reflex saving throw against an attack
that normally deals half damage on a successful
save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can
only be used if the swashbuckler is wearing light or
no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain
the benefit of evasion.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, the swashbuckler
receives weapon training as per the fighter special
ability.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 7th level the
swashbuckler’s uncanny ability to dodge is honed
to the point where he can no longer be flanked.

Find the Mark (Ex): At 8th level, the swashbuckler
increases his threat range by one when using any
melee weapon with which he has Weapon Finesse.
A weapon that would threaten a critical on 20 would
now do so on a 19 or 20, and one which threatens
on a 19 or 20 would now do so on an 18 to 20.
This ability works with other abilities which increase
threat ranges.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 10th level, the
swashbuckler’s evasion improves. In addition
to taking no damage on successful saves, the
swashbuckler now takes only half damage on failed
saves.

Deflect Arrows (Ex): At 13th level, the swashbuckler
may use any weapon covered under the weapon
finesse feat to deflect ranged attacks. This ability
functions exactly as the feat of the same name,
except that the swashbuckler uses a weapon
instead of his bare hands.

Improved Mark (Ex): At 16th level, the swashbuckler
becomes even more adept at finding marks.
The threat range now improves by two when the
swashbuckler uses his Find the Mark ability.

I was particularly happy with the way that everything was just based on class level and not adding any more stat requirements. All three physicals are guaranteed to be important to this class no matter how you do it, so adding any of the other three seems MAD to me.

All that said, I kind of don't like the design of the thrust ability, as it's essentially sneak attack, and while I want my Swashbuckler to have a damage boost, it should be from being that damn good, not being sneaky.

My dream version of this idea would be to take the class as written in Tome of Secrets, but eliminate Thrust and instead have something more like this:

Skillful Strike (Ex): Starting at second level, a Swashbuckler adds his Dexterity bonus to all weapon damage rolls while he is using the Weapon Finesse feat.

It's simple, it makes Dex as unquestionably the SB's main stat as Str is to 99% of fighters, and I think it does a good job of showing how the SB fights differently than a fighter does.

Another possibility I thought of would be having a choice at first level between the Evade feature as written, or instead a feature called parry, where a dagger would be in the off hand granting a shield bonus at the same rate. Very nearly the same, but a shield bonus would not be lost when flat-footed, but it would be taken out when calculating touch AC.

[magnuskn]

Oh, I've seen that version. I stopped reading when it had Sneak Attack as its main damage component. ^^

[Dabbler]

magnuskn wrote:

Oh, I've seen that version. I stopped reading when it had Sneak Attack as its main damage component. ^^

Ditto. It relied in effect on flanking and feinting, nice but not what we are looking for in a fencer.

OK, found my stats for the duelist vs the fighter:

Spoiler:

20th level:
Duelist:
Fighter 10/Duelist 10
Strength: 14
Dexterity: 23
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Piranha Strikes
Improved Feint
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Specialisation (rapier)
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical
Critical Focus
Combat Expertise
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Improved Disarm
Disarming Strike
Agile Maneuvers

Class Features:
Armour Training 2
Weapon Training 2
Canny Defence
Precise Strike
Improved Reaction +4
Parry
Enhanced Mobility
Combat Reflexes
Grace
Riposte
Acrobatic Charge
Elaborate Defence
Deflect Arrows
No retreat
Crippling Critical
Attack: +30 for 1d6+16 (19.5) or +24 for 1d6+28 (31.5)
Hit Points: 155.5
AC Bonus: +8

20th level:
2HF:
Fighter 20
Strength: 23
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 10
Feats: Power Attack
Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Toughness
Dodge
Weapon Specialisation (greatsword)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical
Vital Strike
Critical Focus
Dazzling Display
Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Shatter Defences
Penetrating Strike
Greater Weapon Specialisation (greatsword)
Improved Initiative
Combat Reflexes
Improved Vital Strike
Furious Focus
Greater Penetrating Strike
Deadly Stroke
Intimidating Prowess

Class Features:
Armour Training 4
Weapon Training 4
Armour Mastery
Weapon Mastery

Attack: +32 for 2d6+17 (24) or +26 for 2d6+35 (42)
Hit Points: 195.5
AC Bonus: +3

The Duelist build comes out with:
Attack: +30 for 1d6+16 (19.5) or +24 for 1d6+28 (31.5)
The THF build comes out with:
Attack: +32 for 2d6+17 (24) or +26 for 2d6+35 (42)

Now the duelist is behind in damage without Power Attack, but not hugely so. With Power attack they are well behind, but their greater critical chances will tell for them. Problem is, if you add +10 to these damages the reverse is now true, the fighter is now well behind.

What I suggest: Keep the damage bonus to +10 rather than increasing to +20, and provide more bonuses to hit instead so that precision counts.

[Irulesmost]

Don't make Dex that good. (@ kingtalktoomuch)

I understand that STR is the most important stat for a lot of fighters, and making dex the primary stat is fine, but fighters get str to carry capacity, attack, and damage, and Climb/swim(some of the worst skills in the game, in most campaigns). Dex already applies to attack (with a feat), AC (up to max dex bonus), some of the best skills in the game (acrobatics, stealth), ranged attacks, AND reflex saves (admittedly arguably the least important save, beyond a certain level). Adding it to damage is silly (And yes, I do think dervish dance is silly, at least partly because it applies to an 18-20 threat weapon, and practically obsoletes all other weapons for certain classes.)

[magnuskn]

Dabbler wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Oh, I've seen that version. I stopped reading when it had Sneak Attack as its main damage component. ^^

Ditto. It relied in effect on flanking and feinting, nice but not what we are looking for in a fencer.

OK, found my stats for the duelist vs the fighter:
** spoiler omitted **

The Duelist build comes out with:
Attack: +30 for 1d6+16 (19.5) or +24 for 1d6+28 (31.5)
The THF build comes out with:
Attack: +32 for 2d6+17 (24) or +26 for 2d6+35 (42)

Now the duelist is behind in damage without Power Attack, but not hugely so. With Power attack they are well behind, but their greater critical chances will tell for them. Problem is, if you add +10 to these damages the reverse is now true, the fighter is now well behind.

What I suggest: Keep the damage bonus to +10 rather than increasing to +20, and provide more bonuses to hit instead so that precision counts

I don't have an idea how you arrived at these statistics, because you did not include level, attributes, equipment and feats.

As shown before in this thread, my calculations have shown pretty much the reverse: With even attributes, the Swashbuckler will lag behind a Sword&Board Fighter in damage, while hitting a bit more reliably. I took "average" AC's for the challenges ( normally one CR behind the level of the tested character ), checking what the low and high AC's for creatures of that CR were.

I'd guess that for encounters where the party meets a higher CR opponent with a high AC, the Swashbuckler would hit more often, but in that case there will be things like flanking and party buffs, which will put the Fighter on more equal footing again.

So, no, my calculations really did not bear out your point. If you show me your math, maybe I'll see what you mean.

*edit* Just crunched some numbers for a two-handed Fighter build. Hilariously, a T-H Fighter does as much average damage per hit at level 8 than my Swashbuckler at level 20. ^^ Well, half a point less.

[Flak]

You haven't shown the reverse... according to his post he's comparing a duelist and a THF fighter. There's no swashbuckler there. I'm kind of confused as to the relevance, myself...?

[magnuskn]

Flak wrote:

You haven't shown the reverse... according to his post he's comparing a duelist and a THF fighter. There's no swashbuckler there. I'm kind of confused as to the relevance, myself...?

My guess is he is putting Power Attack into the mix for the Duelist, which is not technically possible for my Swashbuckler, but can be done with Duelist/Any other class.

[Dabbler]

magnuskn wrote:

I don't have an idea how you arrived at these statistics, because you did not include level, attributes, equipment and feats.

As shown before in this thread, my calculations have shown pretty much the reverse: With even attributes, the Swashbuckler will lag behind a Sword&Board Fighter in damage, while hitting a bit more reliably. I took "average" AC's for the challenges ( normally one CR behind the level of the tested character ), checking what the low and high AC's for creatures of that CR were.

I'd guess that for encounters where the party meets a higher CR opponent with a high AC, the Swashbuckler would hit more often, but in that case there will be things like flanking and party buffs, which will put the Fighter on more equal footing again.

So, no, my calculations really did not bear out your point. If you show me your math, maybe I'll see what you mean.

*edit* Just crunched some numbers for a two-handed Fighter build. Hilariously, a T-H Fighter does as much average damage per hit at level 8 than my Swashbuckler at level 20. ^^ Well, half a point less.

Dude, did you not look in the spoiler? It's all there: Level 20 characters, at 25 point buy, with +5 from level increases added to primary stat. Equipment isn't going to make much difference, whatever one gets on a weapon, the other can have; whatever one gains in a boost to stats, the other can have; so I ignored equipment and WBL. I can break it down further, but the basics are there.

The Duelist build comes out with:
Attack: +30 for 1d6+16 (19.5) or +24 for 1d6+28 (31.5) if using Power Attack or Piranha Strikes
Attack bonus is +20 BAB, +6 from Weapon Finesse, +2 Weapon Training, +2 Greater Weapon Focus. It then takes a -6 hit from using either Piranha Strikes or Power Attack, whichever takes your fancy.
Damage is +2 Strength, +2 Weapon Specialisation, +2 Weapon Training, +10 Precise Strike. If Piranha Strikes/Power Attack are used, you get another +12.

The THF build comes out with:
Attack: +32 for 2d6+17 (24) or +26 for 2d6+35 (42) if using Power Attack.
Attack bonus is +20 BAB, +6 Strength, +4 Weapon Training, +2 Greater Weapon Focus. You have a -6 hit from Power Attack, except on the first blow thanks to Furious Focus.
Damage is +9 Strength, +4 Greater Weapon Specialisation, +4 Weapon Training. Power Attack adds +18 to that.

Now your swashbuckler is losing +2 to hit/damage from Weapon Training, and gaining +10 damage on the fighter/duelist.

Ask yourself this: What makes more sense for a swashbuckler? Massive damage or being able to connect? Right - hitting. Where the swashbuckler should be winning our thematically is not in their damage but in their hits. Remember: increased chances to hit = more damage overall.

This is why I would advocate reducing the damage bonus to +1 per 2 levels, and add a to hit bonus with light/finesse weapons of around +1 per three levels (or possibly tie it in with a to hit/AC bonus based on Intelligence). That will give us:
Attack: +33 for 1d6+14 (17.5) or +27 for 1d6+26 (31.5)
Attack bonus is +20 BAB, +6 from Weapon Finesse, +6 special Bonus, +1 Greater Weapon Focus. It then takes a -6 hit from using either Piranha Strikes or Power Attack, whichever takes your fancy.
Damage is +2 Strength, +2 Weapon Specialisation (if I recall correctly they can take this), +10 Precise Strike. If Piranha Strikes/Power Attack are used, you get another +12.

Yes, the damage doesn't look so hot - however consider a standard 20 CR target's AC of 36 (according to my Bestiary) and a full-attack from each of the fighters we have postulated (for hitting a taget of this AC on a full-attack you are best off not power attacking, so we will ignore that for now):

Duelist:
Attack: +30 for 1d6+16 (19.5)
Standard Attack: 75% chance of hitting with first blow, 50% with second, 25% with third, 5% with last = 155%x19.5 damager = 30.225 dpr

Fighter:
Attack: +32 for 2d6+17 (24)
Standard Attack: 85% chance of hitting with first blow, 60% with second, 35% with third, 10% with last = 190%x24 = 45.6 dpr

Swashbuckler (my stats, assume no weapon training but +20 damage):
Attack: +28 for 1d6+24 (27.5)
Standard Attack: 65% chance of hitting with first blow, 40% with second, 15% with third, 5% with last = 135%x27.5 damager = 37.15 dpr

Swashbuckler with suggested changes:
Attack: +33 for 1d6+14 (17.5)
Standard Attack: 90% chance of hitting with first blow, 65% with second, 40% with third, 15% with last = 210%x17.5 damager = 36.7 dpr

Now bear in mind this does not take into account critical hits, but they won't make much difference for your swashbuckler because his chances to hit are that much lower than the fighter's with his lower threat range weapon, so while he is more likely to threaten he is less likely to confirm.

Now the modified swashbuckler with a bonus to hit and half the damage bonus is doing almost the same damage but achieving more hits than the fighter and thus he'll also be getting many more critical confirmations.

It's thematic, it works well and it doesn't try to fix the problem by dumping all the fix into one big damage basket. Instead, by boosting chances to hit you address the damage feature form the other side that is much more appropriate.

[magnuskn]

Alright, I am not sure why I missed the spoiler content before, but now I've seen it.

I am not convinced however, for the following reasons:

1.) A Fighter/Duelist is not the same as my Swashbuckler. It has different bonuses to damage and to hit.

2.) A Fighter/Swashbuckler could still not use Power Attack and Daring Strike together, if the goal is to apply Daring Strike to the damage.

3.) A 25 point buy is not the standard assumption for Pathfinder. With a 25 point buy, suddenly strange things begin to happen, like the Monk actually becoming a viable class.

4.) You seem to be completely disregarding how high chances to hit are at the appropiate levels and that the characters act in a party and will have buffs and equipment. Just taking the baseline, equipment-less, stats and comparing them is not what the reality of the game is about.

Yes, the Swashbuckler will see an increase to his damage throughput if facing high AC opponents ( which goes in the direction of your precision argument ), which situationally will make him do better damage than the Fighter. In all other situations, however, the Fighter will outdamage the Swashbuckler, as long as he uses Power Attack.

I am refusing to nerf the Swashbuckler further to accomodate for bad Fighter builds, which don't have the normal feats expected of the class.

[kingtalktoomuch]

Irulesmost wrote:

Don't make Dex that good. (@ kingtalktoomuch)

I understand that STR is the most important stat for a lot of fighters, and making dex the primary stat is fine, but fighters get str to carry capacity, attack, and damage, and Climb/swim(some of the worst skills in the game, in most campaigns). Dex already applies to attack (with a feat), AC (up to max dex bonus), some of the best skills in the game (acrobatics, stealth), ranged attacks, AND reflex saves (admittedly arguably the least important save, beyond a certain level). Adding it to damage is silly (And yes, I do think dervish dance is silly, at least partly because it applies to an 18-20 threat weapon, and practically obsoletes all other weapons for certain classes.)

Maybe you're right. And I definitely agree that dervish dance is nuts, my DM banned that class after the first time we saw it used.

We do seem to be in agreement that a swashbuckler shouldn't have sneak attack, maybe it should go back to the old Complete Warrior method of adding Int. Between that and Weapon Finesse, Str becomes fairly unimportant, so I guess it isn't that MAD.

The reason I keep asking is that I know my DM, and doubt very much he'd ever allow me to use an entire build from a forum, it's too unofficial. But if I can get some feedback on a houserule idea for something that is published, I might be able to float it past him.

And I think we're all basically here for the same reason; we want to play a character with a particular flavor, for all 20 levels, and not get hopelessly outclassed by your average fighter.

You know, like the never-ending Monk discussions ;)

[Irulesmost]

Ah. See where you're coming from there. As someone who plays fighters and has been (they're my favorite class) since 3.0, I'm actually pretty happy that not only do they not suck, but are actually capable of hopelessly outclassing other martial groups. But it does feel really weird that the fighter can out-box the monk, and will probably be out-shooting the gunslinger.

But yeah, swashbuckling isn't very supported yet. I agree that sneak attack doesn't fit, so I dunno what to do with a new swashbuckler class.

But you could look into a few things. A fighter using either the free-hand fighter or mobile fighter archetypes from the Advanced Players Guide isn't a bad start. They don't have enough skills, admittedly, but you can work with it if you make INT high. And then, if you do make INT a key stat, you're off to a good start for the

Student of War
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of -war

or Duelist
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/duelist

Paizo official, published for Pathfinder prestige classes.

So there's something.

[kingtalktoomuch]

Irulesmost wrote:

Ah. See where you're coming from there. As someone who plays fighters and has been (they're my favorite class) since 3.0, I'm actually pretty happy that not only do they not suck, but are actually capable of hopelessly outclassing other martial groups. But it does feel really weird that the fighter can out-box the monk, and will probably be out-shooting the gunslinger.

But yeah, swashbuckling isn't very supported yet. I agree that sneak attack doesn't fit, so I dunno what to do with a new swashbuckler class.

But you could look into a few things. A fighter using either the free-hand fighter or mobile fighter archetypes from the Advanced Players Guide isn't a bad start. They don't have enough skills, admittedly, but you can work with it if you make INT high. And then, if you do make INT a key stat, you're off to a good start for the

Student of War
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of -war

or Duelist
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/duelist

Paizo official, published for Pathfinder prestige classes.

So there's something.

Hey I like fighters too, I just think they don't pull of that flavor we want that well. My issue with the free-hand fighter is that there's no more bonus damage than any other fighter gets. Clearly you'll want all the Dex to AC you can get since you're restricted to light armor, and if it's going to be prioritized you might as well take weapon finesse, but you still need Str for damage.

Thanks for the links though, hadn't been to that page before, neat stuff. I think it's funny that it lists 4 3rd party classes from Adamant, but they came from a book with 8, including the Swashbuckler I mentioned earlier.

[VM mercenario]

New version, with the changes to Daring Strike and some new powers, for your judgement.