| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Can I get a clear ruling on the validity of using armor spikes to threaten an adjacent square when using a two handed reach weapon? Does one need to take TWF? Where can I find said ruling? Thanks in advance.
...reach weapons only say that you cannot attack adjacent creatures with them. They do not limit you in any other way. If you have armor spikes which can be used to attack adjacent enemies, then you can make AoOs with spikes adjacently and reach...
This feel a little overpowered, though I guess reach weapons aren't exactly optimized for damage anyway. I plan to use a Guisarme fighter focused on tripping, do you think I can get away with AoO trips? Bodycheck trip makes sense to me.
@adam ormond
Yes, you threaten adjacent. Just like you would if you were holding a bow and had armor spikes.
No, there is no offhand for an AoO.
By my reading of RAW, you don't need TWF. The rules get very confusing if TWF applies during an AOO.
I'm not seeing it... you make an AoO at your normal bonus. You only take 1 swing so you can't be two weapon fighting by definition..
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
@alwaysafk
Yes, you can trip as an AoO with a Guisarme. If you don't have Improved Trip you will provoke an AoO back. However, if they don't have reach they can't utilize this AoO.
@alwaysafk
Yes, you can trip as an AoO with a Guisarme. If you don't have Improved Trip you will provoke an AoO back. However, if they don't have reach they can't utilize this AoO.
Ah, let me clarify that. Can I make tripping AoO's with the armor spikes?
Ah, let me clarify that. Can I make tripping AoO's with the armor spikes?
No, as they don't have the Trip property.
You can make a trip AoO at 10 feet because the Guisarme has Trip. So for your maneuver you're using the weapon and you get to add the weapon enhancement/weapon focus bonuses to your attack roll.
You cannot make a Trip AoO with the armor spikes since they do not have the Trip property. When you substitute the attempt for your attack roll, you'll be making a CMB roll without any weapon modifiers because you're not utilizing a weapon for this attempt.
Hope that helps.
No, as they don't have the Trip property.You can make a trip AoO at 10 feet because the Guisarme has Trip. So for your maneuver you're using the weapon and you get to add the weapon enhancement/weapon focus bonuses to your attack roll.
You cannot make a Trip AoO with the armor spikes since they do not have the Trip property. When you substitute the attempt for your attack roll, you'll be making a CMB roll without any weapon modifiers because you're not utilizing a weapon for this attempt.
Hope that helps.
Correct, but not complete.
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not. You are making the trip attack as an unarmed attack. If you fail, you provoke an attack of opportunity yourself. This can cause chain reactions. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid the AoO if you fail.
Monks can also use unarmed attacks (kicks, knees, headbutts, etc.) while holding a reach weapon. I don't know if others with Improved Unarmed Strike can do the same.
You don't need improved unarmed strike. Anyone can make a trip attack. All a trip weapon does is allow you to do so without provoking an AoO if you fail.
Correct, but not complete.You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not. You are making the trip attack as an unarmed attack. If you fail, you provoke an attack of opportunity yourself. This can cause chain reactions. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid the AoO if you fail.
Thank you mdt for guiding this grasshopper.
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not. You are making the trip attack as an unarmed attack. If you fail, you provoke an attack of opportunity yourself. This can cause chain reactions. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid the AoO if you fail.
^^^This^^^
Is completely correct.
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not. You are making the trip attack as an unarmed attack. If you fail, you provoke an attack of opportunity yourself. This can cause chain reactions. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid the AoO if you fail.^^^This^^^
Is completely correct.
No, it isn't. MDT has a strong grasp of the rules, but in this particular case he/she is only partially correct.
This part is correct:
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not.
This part isn't:
You are making the trip attack as an unarmed attack. If you fail, you provoke an attack of opportunity yourself. This can cause chain reactions. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid the AoO if you fail.
You trigger an AoO if you don't have the Improved Trip feat (or other circumstance denying the target an AoO). If you have a trip weapon and fail by 10 or more on the roll, you may drop the trip weapon instead of being tripped yourself.
Also, it should be noted that it is not correct to refer to a maneuver as an "unarmed attack", since "unarmed attack" has a very specific meaning with its own set of rules.
Advice to the OP should read:
"You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes, since they do not have the 'trip' special feature. You can, however, make a trip attack as an AoO, regardless of whether you have spikes or not. You will be making the trip attack as a combat maneuver. A 'trip' weapon can be used, but it is not required. In either case, if you do not have the Improved Trip feat, you will provoke an AoO which can cause chain reactions. If you fail in a trip attempt by 10 or more you will be tripped instead. A weapon with the trip ability simply allows you to release the weapon to avoid being tripped in return, if you fail by 10 or more in your attempt."
Ahhh yes, valid point.
The trip provokes an AoO regardless, unless you have the Imp Feat.
Advice as amended is indeed correct :p
I made a point! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!!
I made a point! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!!
You have stood on the shoulders of giants - and dunked. :)
Power of crowdsourcing :)
I made a point! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!!You have stood on the shoulders of giants - and dunked. :)
Given my size, it would require an actual giant.
You have stood on the shoulders of giants* - and dunked. :)
*This is not a metaphor as I am 15' tall. Well... 142" to be exact.
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You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes.
This is not correct. You can attempt a trip attack with any weapon. There is nothing in the description of either armor spikes or trip that says you cannot do it with the spikes.
You will not provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed (since you are indeed armed with a martial light weapon : the spikes) but you will provoke for attempting a trip attack if you do not have Improved Trip.
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes.This is not correct. You can attempt a trip attack with any weapon. There is nothing in the description of either armor spikes or trip that says you cannot do it with the spikes.
You will not provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed (since you are indeed armed with a martial light weapon : the spikes) but you will provoke for attempting a trip attack if you do not have Improved Trip.
You are mistaken. A weapon must have the trip special ability to be used in a trip attack.
You cannot make a trip attack with the spikes.This is not correct. You can attempt a trip attack with any weapon. There is nothing in the description of either armor spikes or trip that says you cannot do it with the spikes.
You will not provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed (since you are indeed armed with a martial light weapon : the spikes) but you will provoke for attempting a trip attack if you do not have Improved Trip.
No, you can make a trip attack with any weapon. You cannot make a trip attack with a weapon unless it has the trip property.
My take:
When you want to trip a foe, you don't normally use a weapon. Similarly, you don't normally use a weapon to bull rush, grapple, or overrun a foe. You just lash out with a leg sweep or whatever and try to trip the foe. Doing so is an attack, but that doesn't mean you need a weapon to make the attempt.
Now... SOME weapons (not all) allow you to use the weapon to trip a foe, thus giving you a slight advantage since if you mess up the trip attempt, you can just drop the weapon to "counter" the trip that comes back at you.
But basically... when you trip a foe you don't use a weapon. If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category.
Sorry if my response wasn't the one you were looking or hoping for. Fortunately, you can run your game however you want if the rules don't work for you. But as far as I can tell by reading the rules... they're pretty dang clear.You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special.
This is not correct. You can attempt a trip attack with any weapon.
SKR's FAQ Entry on Trip:
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.
There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
Technically, he's correct. Although there is no benefit to making a trip with a non trip weapon so it makes no difference if it is with the spikes or not.
Yeah, just found that on a different thread (I wish the FAQ showed up when you do forum searches).
So, my apologies, you can trip with the spikes, but it makes no difference.
The only real advantage the ruling has, is that you can trip someone with a reach weapon that doesn't have 'Trip' property. Which makes sense, a long spear can trip someone up if you shove it between their feet.
For the purposes of the discussion, it's a moot point since the spikes don't give any bonus.
The only real advantage the ruling has, is that you can trip someone with a reach weapon that doesn't have 'Trip' property. Which makes sense, a long spear can trip someone up if you shove it between their feet.
I shall use this in our next session of PF.. I like long spears... thanks mdt, hadn't put those together.
I shall use this in our next session of PF.. I like long spears... thanks mdt, hadn't put those together.The only real advantage the ruling has, is that you can trip someone with a reach weapon that doesn't have 'Trip' property. Which makes sense, a long spear can trip someone up if you shove it between their feet.
Honestly,
I don't think SKR and JJ and JB put it together either. The final result of this particular ruling is this :A fighter using combat patrol and wielding a long spear and wearing armor spikes with a high dex and combat reflexes becomes scary powerful.
He can trip someone as an AoO using his long spear. He doesn't care about the provoking, since he can't be attacked in return unless they also have a reach weapon. He threatens everything around him. When they get up, he get's a weapon attack on them, and if they try to get out of his area, he again get's to trip them and end their turn (assuming they provoke again). And again, he can ignore the provocation of AoO unless they have a reach weapon as well.
Honestly,
I don't think SKR and JJ and JB put it together either. The final result of this particular ruling is this :A fighter using combat patrol and wielding a long spear and wearing armor spikes with a high dex and combat reflexes becomes scary powerful.
This is different than the Guisarme how? The way I see it, it just gives more options which is always a good thing.
This is different than the Guisarme how? The way I see it, it just gives more options which is always a good thing.Honestly,
I don't think SKR and JJ and JB put it together either. The final result of this particular ruling is this :A fighter using combat patrol and wielding a long spear and wearing armor spikes with a high dex and combat reflexes becomes scary powerful.
A guisarme is 2d4, x3. Average dmg 5, 15 on crit.
With this ruling I can use :
Bardiche 1d10, 19-20/x2. Average Dmg 5.5, 11 on crit (more likely to crit, and if keen then crit range becomes 17-20).
Bec de Corbin/Glaive-Guisarme 1d10, x3. Average Dmg 5.5, 17 on crit.
Lucerne Hammer 1d12, x2. Average Dmg 6.5, 13 on crit.
Note that all four of the above have not only reach and brace, but give bonuses to either sunder or force ride checks at penalties. I think if you're going a crit build, bardiche combined with weapon spikes makes for a nasty combo, and allows you to trip at range. Nasty.
On a side note, I find armour spikes very broken and very much overpowered.
We are on the verge of houseruling them way as a dirty exploit, and I think this is just one more reason.
On a side note, I find armour spikes very broken and very much overpowered.
We are on the verge of houseruling them way as a dirty exploit, and I think this is just one more reason.
Then the person takes improved unarmed strike, so they can kick into adjacent spaces without provoking.
Sure they could do that.
What we find 'too much' is that the damage is a d6. Same as a Shortsword. REALLY?
The whole 'I have a two handed sword and am now adding an armour spike bodyslam' similarly seems spurious.
The notion that as armour gets a bit heavier bulkier it gets a higher ACP, yet take some armour and add spikes big enough to do 1d6 all over it and theres no additional ACP...
A weapon on you at all times that cannot be disarmed.
Oh and as far as proficiency? no worries...
Yeah just starts getting silly.
Sure they could do that.
What we find 'too much' is that the damage is a d6. Same as a Shortsword. REALLY?
Then change them to 1d4.
The whole 'I have a two handed sword and am now adding an armour spike bodyslam' similarly seems spurious.
I hope they bought TWF, or they are having major penalties. And even with TWF, they're having major penalties.
The notion that as armour gets a bit heavier bulkier it gets a higher ACP, yet take some armour and add spikes big enough to do 1d6 all over it and theres no additional ACP...
Well, we don't penalize people for carrying 12 lb great axes, so yeah, although not a logical thing, it is a game balance thing.
A weapon on you at all times that cannot be disarmed.
Cestus. Oh, and you can sunder the spikes without damaging the armor.
Oh and as far as proficiency? no worries...
Uhm,
Proficiency is required. Armor Spikes are martial weapons.
Well, sure, but now the character has spent a feat, not just 50gp. And overcoming DR is a lot easier with armor spikes than with IUS, although this doesn't matter so much if you're just going to use the AOO to trip.
Similar to how anyone besides a Barb/Fighter/Ranger has to pay for the proficiency to use armor spikes? A monk get's IUS as well you know. As to DR, amulet of mighty fists.
As for the concern about using weapons without the Trip property, the character is giving up the benefits of their weapon-specific feats, abilities and enchantments. For a level 5 fighter, this probably means Weapon Training (+1 ATK), Weapon Focus (+1 ATK), and Masterwork (+1 ATK).
The FAQ says you don't get enhancement bonuses, it doesn't say you don't get weapon training, weapon focus, or other feat granted bonuses.
Guisarme is still the obvious choice for any focused melee character.
Not if your melee character is crit focused it isn't. A Bardiche is the obvious choice. You trip them for the AoO, and then you get another AoO when they stand up (or they take their entire action, get attacked, and then you 5 ft withdraw so they have to provoke again to try to get closer). If you get the AoO as they stand up, they're still flat footed and easier to hit and confirm crits on.
@mdt
Taking a lot of flak today!
I was talking about the long spear (which really gets he shaft imo), but I see your points about the other weapons. The Guisarme allows you to not be knocked prone if you fail your trip by 10 or more, so that is one advantage - as well as add any enhancements.
However, since the weapons you bring up are reach weapons and I don't have a problem with them being used as such (for diarming at range, tripping at range, etc). If you're a Large character you can trip Medium characters and they can't do anything about it, there are always advantageous situations. But, they can't be used adjacent so there is some downside.
Armor spikes are very good in my opinion, but not overly powerful. If there is a change to be made, I think Armor Spikes probably should be 1d4 damage to bring it more in line with dagger type damage than shortsword.
@mdt
Taking a lot of flak today!
Par for the course around here. :) Some of it's my own fault for missing things in the FAQ, some of it's just people being stubborn. :)
Armor spikes are very good in my opinion, but not overly powerful. If there is a change to be made, I think Armor Spikes probably should be 1d4 damage to bring it more in line with dagger type damage than shortsword.
I'd be perfectly fine with that, I never understood why they did d6 anyway, most of them are not that big.
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This is different than the Guisarme how? The way I see it, it just gives more options which is always a good thing.Honestly,
I don't think SKR and JJ and JB put it together either. The final result of this particular ruling is this :A fighter using combat patrol and wielding a long spear and wearing armor spikes with a high dex and combat reflexes becomes scary powerful.
A guisarme is 2d4, x3. Average dmg 5, 15 on crit.
With this ruling I can use :
Bardiche 1d10, 19-20/x2. Average Dmg 5.5, 11 on crit (more likely to crit, and if keen then crit range becomes 17-20).
Bec de Corbin/Glaive-Guisarme 1d10, x3. Average Dmg 5.5, 17 on crit.
Lucerne Hammer 1d12, x2. Average Dmg 6.5, 13 on crit.
Note that all four of the above have not only reach and brace, but give bonuses to either sunder or force ride checks at penalties. I think if you're going a crit build, bardiche combined with weapon spikes makes for a nasty combo, and allows you to trip at range. Nasty.
horsechopper-d10 x3 reach and trip>
best thing for a trip build i can find
horsechopper-d10 x3 reach and trip>best thing for a trip build i can find
I'm guessing that's Golarion specific, and not in any of the RPG books.
Fauchard?
