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Some thoughts that have been running through my head.
I noticed the other day that the Iconic Wizard is an Atheist. I was wondering how one could come to have this point of view in a world where some of the Gods themselves were once mortals who ascended. Could it be that the atheists of Golarion just think of the Gods as really powerful, albeit long-lived beings, but still essentially mortal?
Also, could an Atheist/Agnostic wield Divine Magic or be a Cleric?
What about the Shoanti's (and others) Ancestor Worhship? Could you be a cleric and get your spells/Domains from your Ancestors?
And before anyone says "Check with your GM", I just want to add that I am the GM. :P
I guess what I am looking for also, is an official answer. Barring that, I'll settle for advice on how my fellow forumites handle or have handled these situations in their Golarion games.
you can be an oracle with ancestor mystery. there is also a dwarf spell that involves consulting your ancestors.
one rule of thumb which seems to be the case though is clerics tend to focus on a specific thing to worship. so instead of worshiping an undefined ancestor group I think it would be a named ancestor representing the whole.
where as with oracles it can be broader.
the above seems to be the trend with pantheons vs specific deities.
Creative Director
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You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities. An agnostic could certainly be an oracle or a druid though.
Shoanti who follow ancestor worship are oracles or druids; a Shoanti who is a cleric worships a deity.
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It's also worth noting that Atheism means something different in a setting where the existence of gods is proven fact. It's not a lack of belief in the Gods...it's an active and focused decision not to worship them.
Ezren, for example, spent most of his life trying to prove his father innocent of heresy to the Church of Abadar...and found proof of his guilt. He turned it over and took off, but is undertandably somewhat bitter towards the Gods about the whole thing.
For a darker, more nation-wide, version of Golarion Atheism look at Rahadoum.
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You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities. An agnostic could certainly be an oracle or a druid though.
Shoanti who follow ancestor worship are oracles or druids; a Shoanti who is a cleric worships a deity.
Huh...well this could be an awkward conversation next week with the high level Shoanti Skull Clan Cleric/barbarian in our RoTRL campaign....
I think I'll just ignore this post for now...
It's also worth noting that Atheism means something different in a setting where the existence of gods is proven fact. It's not a lack of belief in the Gods...it's an active and focused decision not to worship them.
Ezren, for example, spent most of his life trying to prove his father innocent of heresy to the Church of Abadar...and found proof of his guilt. He turned it over and took off, but is undertandably somewhat bitter towards the Gods about the whole thing.
My bard believes that she has been abandoned by the gods as she is currently being tormented by a fragment of the will of one of the Eldest. He has told her that it is her mission to deceive Calistria's faithful into indulging in lust so he can make a cozy throne of darkness for himself on the prime, starting with her sisters and in her bedroom. He's called Calistria an "uppity b+%&&," I am fairly certain that no divinity can intervene in any meaningful way.
Looking at Rahadoum, you wonder why they haven't trained more wizards capable of holding back the desert...
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You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities. An agnostic could certainly be an oracle or a druid though.
Shoanti who follow ancestor worship are oracles or druids; a Shoanti who is a cleric worships a deity.
Huh...well this could be an awkward conversation next week with the high level Shoanti Skull Clan Cleric/barbarian in our RoTRL campaign....
I think I'll just ignore this post for now...
How things work in individual games are up to each GM. If your GM is okay with allowing Shoanti clerics to not have deities, that's all fine and good. It IS a departure from Pathfinder and Golarion, though.
As folks have noted, there are many different ways to be an atheist in Golarion. For instance, for most Rahadoumis, it's not so much about denying the existence of the gods as rejecting their worship. Sure, gods exist, and are very powerful--but so is the Tarrasque, or devils, or a human king, or a million other beings. To them, the idea of enslaving yourself to the will of some more powerful being in exchange for a few magical powers is the problem--you're essentially selling your independence and entering voluntary slavery.
All of this discussion plays a fairly big role in the upcoming Pathfinder Tales novel Death's Heretic!
In Fortress of the Stone Giants, the Storval Plateau giants worship ancestors and receive domains from them (Death, Divination, Knowledge, Luck, Protection). Has this been retconned?
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In Fortress of the Stone Giants, the Storval Plateau giants worship ancestors and receive domains from them (Death, Divination, Knowledge, Luck, Protection). Has this been retconned?
That was 3.5.
In Pathfinder, that doesn't apply.
If and when we update that whole thing to Pathfinder, we'll present the ancestor worship of the Storval Plateau giants as being oracles with appropriate mysteries... or maybe even a custom-built mystery for them.
You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities. An agnostic could certainly be an oracle or a druid though.
I think I´m rusty on what Athiest means in Golarion,
but could you explain a bit better why a Golarion Athiest couldn`t be an Oracle, for example?How does your attitude to Deities and Soul Cosmology affect what you decide to do with Powers you are born with / develop? Even if they are `seen` as coming from Deities, why couldn`t an Athiest just view them as being like Sorceror powers, and one is no more beholden to Deities than an Elder Dragon for somehow giving you a Bloodline...???
As folks have noted, there are many different ways to be an atheist in Golarion.
For instance, for most Rahadoumis, it's not so much about denying the existence of the gods as rejecting their worship....All of this discussion plays a fairly big role in the upcoming Pathfinder Tales novel Death's Heretic!
Hm, if Rahadoum plays a role in that story, it couldn`t hurt to mention it, I was thinking it was only based in Thuvia and the Outer Planes.
I think I´m rusty on what Athiest means in Golarion,
but could you explain a bit better why a Golarion Athiest couldn`t be an Oracle, for example?
Not James here, but pretty much as they have chosen to reject the Divine, Oracles get that power from somewhere, a group of gods, an outsider , divine belief in something greater. Something outside gives them power and their belief in that outside divine concept sustains them.
Athiests have rejected divinity and its control over them. They simply lack the faith or the willingness to give faith to the divine.
And unlike a sorcerer an oracle is given that power by something for its own reasons, not the oracles reasons. If someone out right rejects the Divine in all forms they simply can not remain oracles. Good chance they would keep the curse however.
Someone touched by the Divine can accept it, or reject it but not both at once.
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In Fortress of the Stone Giants, the Storval Plateau giants worship ancestors and receive domains from them (Death, Divination, Knowledge, Luck, Protection). Has this been retconned?That was 3.5.
In Pathfinder, that doesn't apply.
If and when we update that whole thing to Pathfinder, we'll present the ancestor worship of the Storval Plateau giants as being oracles with appropriate mysteries... or maybe even a custom-built mystery for them.
First, hardcover complete RoTRL updated to pathfinder would be an instant buy for me.
2nd, this was the problem in our game as we were of course playing by the rules in RoTRL which made it seem like ancestor worship was kosher.
But the more important point, Updated complete RoTRL is something I will pay cash money for.
Would you include the articles as well in a updated-rerelease? (updated obviously since many things are retconned at this point)
YA have to recall RotRL was the first Golarion product. In those days it was very vague. Items are still slipping in that have been deemed o be No,No's such as paladins or evil gods and the godless clerics from last year. Things slip though at times and other times the version of Golarion becomes more defined and some older stuff just no long fits {sleepless elves and godless clerics for exsample}
So is it canon that in Golarion, there are no clerics who get their domains from spiritual concepts?
This is correct, ya can be about any other type of divine caster without a god, but in Golarion clerics must have gods.
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You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities. An agnostic could certainly be an oracle or a druid though.I think I´m rusty on what Athiest means in Golarion,
but could you explain a bit better why a Golarion Athiest couldn`t be an Oracle, for example?
How does your attitude to Deities and Soul Cosmology affect what you decide to do with Powers you are born with / develop? Even if they are `seen` as coming from Deities, why couldn`t an Athiest just view them as being like Sorceror powers, and one is no more beholden to Deities than an Elder Dragon for somehow giving you a Bloodline...???
The weird thing about atheism is that while we can talk about things like Desna worshipers and followers of the Green Faith without riling folks up... the same isn't the case for atheism, since that philosophy is a real-world one. And as such, going into too much detail about how it works in the game, ironically, kind of runs into the same problems as would quantifying the effects of Christianity or Buddhism in the game.
As a result, I actually am not all that comfortable going into big full detail about what it means to be an atheist on Golarion, and would rather just leave a lot of those choices as to what it means in each game to individual GMs. Alas... we've already done a bit more than I'm comfortable on the topic in print, so to a certain extent, that ship has sailed.
In any case, it doesn't matter how an atheist would perceive divine powers, because they ARE divine in nature. Just perceiving them as arcane magic doesn't change things at all. Mortals do not have the ability to change reality just because of their perceptions or opinions or beliefs.
Since divine magic is the result of faith, that type of power is not available to atheist characters any more than arcane magic would be available to a theoretically magic-dead character who couldn't manipulate magic at all.
As a result... an atheist can't be an oracle, because the VERY DEFINITION of being able to cast divine magic is that you're not an atheist. If you can cast divine magic, you have faith in a higher power, be it a deity or a philosophy or a spirit or whatever, and as a result you're not an atheist.
Of course, you're free to adjust that as however you see fit in your version of Golarion, but that's how it works in canon for the world.
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You can't be an athiest and cast divine magic, but you can be an agnostic and use it. Neither could be a cleric, though, since clerics have to worship specific deities.So is it canon that in Golarion, there are no clerics who get their domains from spiritual concepts?
Correct. Divine spellcasters who get their powers from non-deity sources are oracles. Or perhaps druids or paladins or rangers or even inquisitors.
Clerics get their powers from a deity. That's one of the fundamental things that defines that class, in the same way wizards record their spells in a spell book.
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Some thoughts that have been running through my head.
I noticed the other day that the Iconic Wizard is an Atheist. I was wondering how one could come to have this point of view in a world where some of the Gods themselves were once mortals who ascended. Could it be that the atheists of Golarion just think of the Gods as really powerful, albeit long-lived beings, but still essentially mortal?
Also, could an Atheist/Agnostic wield Divine Magic or be a Cleric?
What about the Shoanti's (and others) Ancestor Worhship? Could you be a cleric and get your spells/Domains from your Ancestors?
And before anyone says "Check with your GM", I just want to add that I am the GM. :P
I guess what I am looking for also, is an official answer. Barring that, I'll settle for advice on how my fellow forumites handle or have handled these situations in their Golarion games.
I would approach it this way when considering Atheism in a world where there is daily evidence of the existence of "Gods" in the world.
If you define Atheism as the belief there are no Gods, that is foolish in Golarion. Clearly there are "Gods" that transfer power to divine casters.
Now, if you take the approach that these "Gods" are not all powerful beings who control the universe and should be worshiped, if you take the approach that these are just very powerful beings, but fallible and vulnerable just like anyone else...that they aren't "Gods"...well that is kind of Atheism, isn't it.
If a race of super powerful aliens came to earth, and they were able to grant those who worshiped them great power, would they be thought of universally as "Gods"? Would they be "Gods".
In that context, Atheism in the world makes sense. You acknowledge really powerful beings exist, but you don't view them as Gods. Just really powerful beings.
Hell, you can even become one of them, in theory. How can you worship something you yourself are capable of becoming?
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I don't think "atheism" is really the right word here. In real life, it means the rejection of the notion of gods. In Golarion, though, there is hard, irrefutable evidence that beings whom people call "gods" exist.
It's entirely possible for a person in Golarion to acknowledge that they exist but not worship them. Calling that person an "atheist" isn't a good description because it brings to mind the real-world meaning of that word. I'm not really sure what a better word would be; "non-religious" doesn't work, either, because you can still being religious without worshipping a deity. It's even possible to acknowledge divine power exists and receive it without worshipping a deity -- see oracles, rangers, and so on. You can be devoted to a cause or philosophy without worshipping a god.
Then you've got a second type of person, one who rejects that the "gods" have any kind of omnipotence at all and believes that they're just very, very powerful creatures. That person is even correct in some situations. There are powerful demons and other creatures who can grant spells to worshippers, and they are definitely not gods. They may have some worshippers who believe they are gods, but there are likely others who believe they're not and pledge their loyalty in exchange for power. So, that kind of person can receive divine powers, too. (whether they could follow, say, Abadar, and still receive powers without acknowledging his godhood is another debate)
The last kind of person is one who explicitly rejects the use of divine power. There's no denying it exists, but for whatever reason they object to it and refuse to acknowledge or use it. They might even have a philosophy they follow without believing that it gives them any sort of power. They could gain levels in a class like ranger, but would intentionally not use the divine powers granted to them.
Summary: I don't think the word "atheist" as we use it is at all applicable on Golarion, but I don't have short, one-word descriptors for the types of people who don't worship gods.
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I don't think "atheism" is really the right word here. In real life, it means the rejection of the notion of gods. In Golarion, though, there is hard, irrefutable evidence that beings whom people call "gods" exist.
Not true.
If you believed David Koresh was the messiah, you believe in a sense he was a god.
Now I believe David Koresh existed, but I don't believe he is a god.
I personally, as an atheist, don't believe any "god" exists.
If a group of super powerful individuals appeared and had control over the universe to the same extent that "Gods" in Golarion do, many people would worship them as "Gods".
But if you didn't think they were "Gods" but just really powerful people...well...you would still be an atheist in the way that my believing David Koresh existed doesn't make me a Branch Davidion.
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But if you didn't think they were "Gods" but just really powerful people...well...you would still be an atheist in the way that my believing David Koresh existed doesn't make me a Branch Davidion.
I suppose it depends on how you define the term "god". In Golarion, there are extremely powerful beings with supernatural powers who have absolute control over certain aspects of reality. Sufficiently powerful spellcasters can even go visit their home planes and verify that for themselves.
An outside observer can verify that David Koresh did not have any unexplainable powers. On the other hand, Nethys' control over magic is verifiable.
If you don't consider that sort of being to be a god, then what are they lacking that would make them gods? If there's no agreement about what a "god" is in the first place, then we don't really even have a common basis for discussing other terminology.
Atheists in the game may know such beings exist, but do not feel like they need or must be worshiped. In fact powerful outsiders and demon lords have the same powers as "gods" They just happen to have less power.
Do not think of Atheists as not believing in gods, but more in believing divine beings have no right or control over you or your life.
Atheists would reject the very thought of "Divine Right" Nethys may have some connection to magic, may in fact be the embodiment of magic, but that does not mean he is worthy of your devotion . Atheists in Golarion would reject any control the divine has over them and see any claim on them from the divine as little more then an attempt to enslave them to the so called "gods" will.
And that is what they reject.
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My 2 cents:
Atheists on Golarion are practitioners of Athiesm - A, a prefix meaning without, and Theism, meaning 'faith in a god'. (loose translations, I'm not an English major). Thus an atheist professes worship of no god. "Do they exist? Sure. Are they powerful? Yes. Am I going to give them one copper shekel or one sheaf of wheat as an offering, a request for power, or a thanks for the harvest? No. My hands sowed, tended, reaped. My belly gets the grain, and those in my community if I choose to sell, barter, or share. Gozreh wants my bloody wheat, he can come get some, I've got a bushel left that he can have before winter if he'll give me a fair price."
Agnostics are unsure which gods are right. Which ones are worthy of devoted worship - or, at an extreme, unsure that any of them, with their petty squabbles and tawdry backstories are any better than ordinary people that happen to be able to level mountain ranges - and frankly, 4 of them are ordinary people that have that power level.
This will not of course end the debate, but it's how I use it in my games.
When I originally posted, I actually thought that it would have been a better idea if Paizo had not used words like atheist and agnostic, and had instead used specific words to indicate those roles in Golarion. In any case, I´m aware that real world Atheism is not the same thing as Golarion Atheism, and I don´t feel particularly confused about Golarion Atheism IN RELATION TO WORSHIP OF DEITIES (I suppose it´s attitude to Soul Cosmology can be seen as stemming from Pharasma´s role there...?), but I´m just trying to get a consistent understanding of how Golarion Atheism (Gatheism?) is meant to play out in non-Deity related spheres, e.g. the Oracle.
I´m still not solid on the Atheist =/= Oracle thing... Especially since it would seem Rangers are in the same boat?
I am just going on Paizo´s own example of Atheism in Golarion, Rahadoum.
There, they beleive that because of their experience with mortals WORSHIPPING and FOLLOWING THE IDEALS/WISHES of ´Gods´. But in this issue, Oracles are no less individualistic or self-directed than any other mortal, Rogue or Sorceror. Nothing in the Oracle description says to me that they must have faith or allegiance to a higher power. Maybe these vague higher powers conspired to give the Oracle their powers, but they are completely independent in how they use them... There is nothing suggesting their powers can be taken away, any more than a Sorcerors powers could be.
I never suggested Oracles could ´change reality´ by their opinion of the origin of their powers, I was simply suggesting that USING their powers isn´t dependent on any particular opinion... Are Atheists ´banned´ from using a Sword of Uberest Power if it happened to be created by a Deity? I mean, I can see some avoiding using such an item on principles´ sake, but it seems like it should in principle be POSSIBLE without losing their status as an Atheist, right? I mean, are Atheists barred from living in Absalom, since it was created by a God? Likewise, if somebody knows that Deitys/Divine Forces conspired to arrange events so they gain an Arcane Bloodline, or just go to Wizard School, would an Atheist be ´barred´ from using such abilities (unless they renounce Atheism)?
Anyhow, it seems James´ position is that Oracles are NOT simply Divine-powered Sorcerors, but are akin to Spontaneous Casting Clerics who instead have faith / allegiance to ´the Divinity of the Universe at large´, or perhaps ´the Pantheon of all Deities at large´. Or something...? That isn´t how I ever envisioned them, nor do I read much of that in their description, but if you want to say that´s how they work in Golarion, that´s fine as long as it´s clear.
In any case, it would be valuable to have confirmation if Rangers are also not allowed to use their spells / Su abilities (?) if they are Athiest. I´ve seen many people posit Rangers, along with (Arcane) Bards, as a source of low-level healing in Atheist Rahadoum, so it seems pretty crucial to know. Of course, if that leads to Paizo sooner doing an Arcane Ranger variant, I´m certainly not opposed :-)
In any case, it would be valuable to have confirmation if Rangers are also not allowed to use their spells / Su abilities (?) if they are Athiest. I´ve seen many people posit Rangers, along with (Arcane) Bards, as a source of low-level healing in Atheist Rahadoum, so it seems pretty crucial to know. Of course, if that leads to Paizo sooner doing an Arcane Ranger variant, I´m certainly not opposed :-)
Well we know Divine casters may not be atheist, any type of divine caster. Ya can't use Divine power without faith in something greater then yourself.
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Well we know Divine casters may not be atheist, any type of divine caster. Ya can't use Divine power without faith in something greater then yourself.
Atheism is the lack of belief in supreme beings; it doesn't preclude belief in other sorts of supernatural being or faith in a philosophy or cause. See Buddhism or Jainism for real-world examples. The only divine spellcasters who are specifically required to worship a deity are clerics, and even that is setting-dependent.
Real world Atheism is not the same, and has little or nothing to do with Golarion Atheism,
a magical world where Gods DO exist and act in ways measurable by mortal men.
If it helps, I freely grant usage of the phrase Gatheism to preclude such confusion. 8-P
@Seeker: I had just never seen any such statement on Rangers, or even Inquisitors not being able to be (G)Atheist.
Whatever the case, it seems useful to know what exact abilities are lost if they become (G)Atheist.
I.e. spellcasting, Su abilties, Ex abilities, etc...?
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Real world Atheism is not the same, and has little or nothing to do with Golarion Atheism,
a magical world where Gods DO exist and act in ways measurable by mortal men.If it helps, I freely grant usage of the phrase Gatheism to preclude such confusion. 8-P
@Seeker: I had just never seen any such statement on Rangers, or even Inquisitors not being able to be (G)Atheist.
Whatever the case, it seems useful to know what exact abilities are lost if they become (G)Atheist.
I.e. spellcasting, Su abilties, Ex abilities, etc...?
Well, creatures who are referred to as Gods exist.
If you study religion you will find the anthropomorphism of a Deity came later in the game, and the concept of "god" varies from culture to culture even in the same religion.
If superman existed, would he be a god? Not to Christians, despite any "Godlike" power he possesses.
Similarly if Aroden can die, how can he truly be a god? If a man can touch a rock and aquire divinity, is he truly a "God?"
I think you are stuck on the idea that because "Gods" exist, you can't be an Atheist.
I believe that there is a good chance a person name Jesus existed and was killed by Romans. I don't believe he was the son of god. The fact I believe Jesus may have existed doesn't change the fact that I don't believe their is an all powerful being behind all decisions in the world that I should worship.
Just because there are super powerful beings, doesn't mean that I have to believe they are gods.
A small point: in Heart of the Jungle (a Pathfinder product, not ed 3.5), there's a description of the Mwangi city of Jaha. It's rulers include Leshar Rushton (LN male human cleric 7 of Lergeni astrology) and Raynor Zendell (LN female fighter 1/cleric 3 of Lergeni astrology). I'm going to go ahead and assume that these guys are actually oracles.
Yeah that has been ruled a mistake. Cleric slipped though as the author wanted them to be clerics IIRC. But golarion does not have idea based clerics and it was never corrected before print.
All the same it was been ruled a mistake and non canon
@Seeker: I had just never seen any such statement on Rangers, or even Inquisitors not being able to be (G)Atheist.
Whatever the case, it seems useful to know what exact abilities are lost if they become (G)Atheist.
I.e. spellcasting, Su abilties, Ex abilities, etc...?
That is a good point, but post APG I would just say they took the spelless archtype. Rangers are kinda the odd men out in divine classes as they have no other divine abilities at all other then spells they do not even gain till 4th level.
All other divine classes have pretty heavy divine power though and though, but the ranger just doesn't. Only his spells makes him a divine class at all and thankfully now we have an official option to not have divine rangers.
I don't think "atheism" is really the right word here. In real life, it means the rejection of the notion of gods. In Golarion, though, there is hard, irrefutable evidence that beings whom people call "gods" exist.
If I've learned anything, it's that there is nothing so irrefutable, that someone won't refute it.
Real people have (subjective) beliefs that are (objectively) wrong, why can't fictional characters? Remember, they don't have the same omnisicent view you do as a reader.
Why should Ezran believe that clerics get their spells from gods? He can cast spells, and he doesn't have faith in a god.
Fictional people should be as oblivious and obstinate as real people. Personally, I'd find it incredible if there weren't atheists on Golarion.
Since divine magic is the result of faith, that type of power is not available to atheist characters any more than arcane magic would be available to a theoretically magic-dead character who couldn't manipulate magic at all.
As a result... an atheist can't be an oracle, because the VERY DEFINITION of being able to cast divine magic is that you're not an atheist. If you can cast divine magic, you have faith in a higher power, be it a deity or a philosophy or a spirit or whatever, and as a result you're not an atheist.
Of course, you're free to adjust that as however you see fit in your version of Golarion, but that's how it works in canon for the world.
Now the PRD specifically allows Clerics to be atheist.
Now the PRD specifically allows Clerics to be atheist.
The PRD is not Golarion. The PRD is the non specific rule set, Golarion is a setting. What the PRD allows and what Golarion allows are not always the same. The setting always trumps the rule set, always. None of your examples matter a bit, as the setting has changed the generic rules on this subject.
You simply can not use rules that have been altered for the setting in their un altered form as a base of an argument against the change.
In golarion the term atheist is used for someone who not only lacks faith in "gods" but the divine period. Ya can't be a druid with out faith in the divinity of nature or a divine caster without faith in something greater then yourself.
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A small point: in Heart of the Jungle (a Pathfinder product, not ed 3.5), there's a description of the Mwangi city of Jaha. It's rulers include Leshar Rushton (LN male human cleric 7 of Lergeni astrology) and Raynor Zendell (LN female fighter 1/cleric 3 of Lergeni astrology). I'm going to go ahead and assume that these guys are actually oracles.
Correct. They should be oracles.
Now the PRD specifically allows Clerics to be atheist.
The PRD is not Golarion. The PRD is the non specific rule set, Golarion is a setting. What the PRD allows and what Golarion allows are not always the same. The setting always trumps the rule set, always. None of your examples matter a bit, as the setting has changed the generic rules on this subject.
You simply can not use rules that have been altered for the setting in their un altered form as a base of an argument against the change.
In golarion the term atheist is used for someone who not only lacks faith in "gods" but the divine period. Ya can't be a druid with out faith in the divinity of nature or a divine caster without faith in something greater then yourself.
James Jacobs[/url]]But EVERYTHING in the Advanced Player's Guide will be IN Golarion, just as is the case with the Core rules and the Bestiary. All of the books in our rulebook line will, in theory, follow this philosophy.
Core et al. applies to Golarion.
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Now the PRD specifically allows Clerics to be atheist.
The PRD is not Golarion. The PRD is the non specific rule set, Golarion is a setting. What the PRD allows and what Golarion allows are not always the same. The setting always trumps the rule set, always. None of your examples matter a bit, as the setting has changed the generic rules on this subject.
You simply can not use rules that have been altered for the setting in their un altered form as a base of an argument against the change.
In golarion the term atheist is used for someone who not only lacks faith in "gods" but the divine period. Ya can't be a druid with out faith in the divinity of nature or a divine caster without faith in something greater then yourself.
Core et al. applies to Golarion.James Jacobs[/url]]But EVERYTHING in the Advanced Player's Guide will be IN Golarion, just as is the case with the Core rules and the Bestiary. All of the books in our rulebook line will, in theory, follow this philosophy.
I suspect I wrote that a long time ago.
A better way to say it would be "All the books in our rulebook line will present options that COULD exist in Golarion."
Ultimate Magic has words of power; and while anyone can ceratinly make a words of power character for Golarion, I'm not going to put a words of power NPC into the game because I don't think the flavor matches what we want to do with Golarion.
Ultimate Combat goes even further—it SPECIFICALLY has material in there (advanced firearms) that aren't in Golarion.
Clerics cannot be atheists in Golarion, in any event. They must worship a single deity.
I think you are stuck on the idea that because "Gods" exist, you can't be an Atheist.
Uh... Interesting post, but I think you´re massively mis-reading my post, which was responding to Minneyar´s post (which would provoke the concerns you raised). From square one, I´m clear that Golarion Atheism has nothing to do with real-world Atheism, and shouldn´t even be calle Atheism to begin with (as JJ opined, I believe). AFAIK, Golarion Atheism has squat to do with what you think the Gods ´are´, or how powerful you believe them to be (those are concerns imported from real-world Atheism), but simply corresponds to your non-willingness to accept their role as judgement of your soul (along with allegiance or dependence in other aspects, such as Clerics and such). Though I don´t believe you become non-Atheist simply by having a Cleric cast spells on you, you shouldn´t like it on a regular basis.
I continue to hope to hear some answers on the questions I raised...
The Atheist Ranger thing certainly may be most appropriate with a Spell-Less Archetype (though I don´t if that still has Su or other abilities, the abilities aren´t generally called out as tied to ´Divine Power´ or not), but characters can´t change Archetypes after the fact, yet they can become Atheist at any time.
Or... Clerics of Lergeni Astronomy could really be psychotically worshipping some of the freakier Elder Gods and just call it Astronomy.
I do find it strange that if Atheism does so affect all ´Divine´ classes/abilities, that there is NO wording equivalent to Clerics´ losing powers if they violate their Deity´s mores, i.e. what happens if they become Atheist... Without such wording SOMEWHERE*, I can´t see how Paizo expects people to think Golarion Atheism is incompatable with Divine classes (beyond Cleric).
* In the Campaign Setting, I´d presume... Along with PFS rules.
Some thoughts that have been running through my head.
I noticed the other day that the Iconic Wizard is an Atheist. I was wondering how one could come to have this point of view in a world where some of the Gods themselves were once mortals who ascended. Could it be that the atheists of Golarion just think of the Gods as really powerful, albeit long-lived beings, but still essentially mortal?
Also, could an Atheist/Agnostic wield Divine Magic or be a Cleric?
What about the Shoanti's (and others) Ancestor Worhship? Could you be a cleric and get your spells/Domains from your Ancestors?
And before anyone says "Check with your GM", I just want to add that I am the GM. :P
I guess what I am looking for also, is an official answer. Barring that, I'll settle for advice on how my fellow forumites handle or have handled these situations in their Golarion games.
Way late to the game, but I would like to point out that your description of the gods as "really powerful, albeit long-lived beings, but still essentially mortal" is how anyone with any sense on Golarion would have to see the gods, since, you know, they can die. Aroden, anyway, at least. As far as we know.
Maybe the gods are immortal and unkillable. But then, where is Aroden? Where is Ydersius? The populace of Golarion might look at these questions and come to different conclusions.
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I do find it strange that if Atheism does so affect all ´Divine´ classes/abilities, that there is NO wording equivalent to Clerics´ losing powers if they violate their Deity´s mores, i.e. what happens if they become Atheist... Without such wording SOMEWHERE*, I can´t see how Paizo expects people to think Golarion Atheism is incompatable with Divine classes (beyond Cleric).
* In the Campaign Setting, I´d presume... Along with PFS rules.
Actually, there is. Page 41, under the paragraph titled "Ex-Clerics."
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
If becoming an atheist doesn't count as violating a code of conduct based on faith and belief and servitude to a deity, I don't know what would.
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I do find it strange that if Atheism does so affect all ´Divine´ classes/abilities, that there is NO wording equivalent to Clerics´ losing powers if they violate their Deity´s mores, i.e. what happens if they become AtheistActually, there is. Page 41, under the paragraph titled "Ex-Clerics."
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).If becoming an atheist doesn't count as violating a code of conduct based on faith and belief and servitude to a deity, I don't know what would.
I think he meant that divine classes that *aren't* clerics don't have a similar statement, making it not obvious that an atheist ranger couldn't exist.
Set is correct...
That is why I was wondering about ´ALL ´Divine´ Classes´ not having wording ´EQUIVALENT to Clerics´ losing powers´.
Clerics´ loss of powers is 100% clear,
I was contrasting the lack of clarity of other non-Deity-associated Divine classes to the clear rules for Clerics.
...Amongst my broader questions.
Kinda self evident. If they become atheist, then they have lost what ever faith granted them their class. As such they would loose all powers related to said faith. oracles for example would lose spells and any mystery granted powers. Paladins who lost faith in the divinity of his oath and goodness and justice would fall, druids who lost faith in the divinity of nature would no longer have the faith to call upon it. And so on.
It would be damned hard for this to ever happen. If you are atheist then you never had any divine based powers or a class based upon them. If you have such faith and feel that power and connection every waking moment it would take something epic to force you to renounce that connection and all other divine being and power as false.
In cases where someone 's faith is broken or changed they rarely give up the idea in gods or the divine, they may refuse to use it or accept it or go over to "darker" ideas of the divine or maybe just different ideas of the divine but it would be very rare for them to completely forsake all of divinity once they have felt it's touch.