Goblin Squad Member
|
I have seen it mentioned in several places that people believe evil will constitute the larger chunk of the PFO player base. Whether this is due to people wanting to behave as evil does the majority of their play time (i.e. role-playing evil) or because performing acts that have been flagged evil will move them inevitable to the "dark side", I hope there will be those players who decide to embrace that end of the alignment spectrum with real panache.
NPC monsters and bosses are all well and good for the PvE status hunters...the big game mob killers, but being AI run opponents, killing these is often a matter of gear, hit points, and mass numbers on the part of players, rather than a matter of having to out-think them. As I've said before, nothing adds quite the same challenge as a nemesis with a player behind the controls. Now I'm not just describing a player who by having the highest skills, best gear, and a gang of like-minded, bloodthirsty friends simply becomes the replacement for the mob boss, but rather a plotting, planning, conniving, intelligent evil. I hope there will be evil players willing to devote that amount of time into their rise to infamy, constructing truly notorious reputations while at the same time being faceless to the public. A player who doesn't make their name by how many people they PK, but rather creates such a web of contacts that even those who think they work for "the boss" don't really know who he is. A Kaiser Soze style mastermind. That would be wonderful.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The truest form of evil we will see is in the internal politics of the largest settlements, of any alignment. Power and the lust for it will grow, and tear these settlements up from the inside.
We will see or hear of company thieves who clean out their company or settlement banks. You will see or hear of "blue" killers, people who join your group, wait for an opportunity and kill group members to steal from them. You will see or hear of company leaders treat their company as a personal revenue stream, and then rob it blind when they slip away. You will have the double cross in warfare, when a company has been bought off to abandon their post.
A lot of these, and more schemes, take weeks or even months to plan. They are based on building trust, which when violated is the greatest evil I can think of because it is against the players and not the characters.
I have experienced this kind of evil first hand. It is devious and will shake your confidence in joining large organizations ( alliances). Fortunately, in a game like EvE, you can punish the perpetrator to such a degree that they crumble and leave the game for an extended period of time. Our former alliance leader had remained out of the game for nearly 8 months. Then one day he logged back in and his "corporation of one" was war dec'd by five corporations within an hour.
Now I'm not just describing a player who by having the highest skills, best gear, and a gang of like-minded, bloodthirsty friends simply becomes the replacement for the mob boss, but rather a plotting, planning, conniving, intelligent evil. I hope there will be evil players willing to devote that amount of time into their rise to infamy, constructing truly notorious reputations while at the same time being faceless to the public. A player who doesn't make their name by how many people they PK, but rather creates such a web of contacts that even those who think they work for "the boss" don't really know who he is. A Kaiser Soze style mastermind. That would be wonderful.
Most MMOs are so focused on getting players to the "end game" content that any chance of a deep thinking player planning and enacting a deeply thought out scenario just doesn't happen. Most deep thinkers are turned off by the type of content that makes up theme park MMOs.
GWs approach to PFO is so different that I believe it will attract those players who will bring the sort of "long con" type plots back to online games that we've so missed. Actually if you look at the posters on the forums now, I recognize many personality types that would be considered uncommon in run of the mill theme park MMOs. We are an unusually mature bunch, a group that for the most part is self policing when it comes to typical forum antics. That says something about the type of game GW is creating (to me anyway).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You always run the risk that people will mistake role-played evil action for mean-spirited player action. Hopefully the community will embrace the former as much as they should damn the latter. After all, if a hero's prowess is to some degree measured by the caliber of his enemies, then masterfully played villains will be in high demand.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You always run the risk that people will mistake role-played evil action for mean-spirited player action. Hopefully the community will embrace the former as much as they should damn the latter. After all, if a hero's prowess is to some degree measured by the caliber of his enemies, then masterfully played villains will be in high demand.
I have the same hope. The one thing I would add is that in a community-based game like PFO intends to be, high-quality role-players usually "rise to the top," as it were. Thankfully, those of us that realize how important quality role-playing is, can "gift" these players with reputation, etc., in addition to actively supporting them through RP ourselves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If I were to play an evil character with "style", I would definitely go with an Assassin. But, I would not kill for money, greed is such a low brow motivation. I would first build trust with my mark, spending weeks or even months with him or her. I would build them up, then slowly begin to conspire against what they built. Then when it seems to be falling down around them, I strike killing them.
Then when they ask, "Why?" My answer would be, "Because that's what I do."
Back under the bridge!
No soup for you!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Martin,
Every decent story, every good movie, every play worth any acclaim has antagonists as interesting and memorable as the protagonist - sometimes more so. From a role-play perspective, what we are discussing here is playing the roles that give our heroes their reason for living. Clarice Starling would have no impetus for growth as a character without Hannibal Lecter. Star Wars would be nothing without Vader. In some cases, it can be said that the villain out-shined the main characters, such as my example of Kaiser Soze in "The Usual Suspects". And in some situations, it is the villain who makes the whole story possible. Imagine Othello without Iago, who Shakespeare keeps alive at the end of the play, even when the title role is dead.
However, should you think I'm promoting ruining someone's game just for my personal entertainment, you should know that this is far from the case. A griefer enjoys ruining your day. As the person being griefed, there's nothing in the griefer's behavior to admire. But as roleplayers, the main difference is that you know the villain's player is playing their character genuinely and there is no animosity or ill-will intended. Often when I've played a villain, my opponents and I knew one another out-of-character. They did not hold my character's actions against me and they knew my actions were not meant to offend or harm them as players. If I got the upper hand, I would often receive a "well played" message from them, and when someone RPing a villain got the best of me, I would shake my head and have to admit the same.
Something I often made clear with to my intended victims/targets was that I would play my character honestly - acting as they would act, being as intelligent as they should be, and playing to win. That is, I would play my character as genuinely as the good guys were playing theirs, which meant I might do things that cost them something - in money, items, peace of mind, etc. There were times I might hold back if the ramifications of my actions would cost fellow players too much, but for the most part, my fellow players not only trusted me to play my part to it's fullest, but they often said out-of-character that they wouldn't have it any other way, lest I be untrue to my character. Did I play random mass murderers, so that I could kill at will and then claim "I'm role-playing evil?" No. To me, that would be taking advantage of my role-played alignment. Quite often, I had nothing to do with players I didn't know out-of-character. My evil almost always had clear motivations and known targets. Besides, not being much for PvP, my "evilness" often took other forms than direct confrontation. If I wanted someone roughed up, I'd hire thugs for that sort sort of thing.
A last point worth noting - lest I seem to play evil for all the advantages and little cost - I always maintained that if I was caught and imprisoned, I would sideline that character until released or rescued. Furthermore, if the capturing force decided to execute me for my crimes, I would delete the villain. How many players are willing to put their character on the line to that degree? To me, it only seemed fair, but then, I'm one of those crazy role-playing types. ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If I were to play an evil character with "style", I would definitely go with an Assassin. But, I would not kill for money, greed is such a low brow motivation. I would first build trust with my mark, spending weeks or even months with him or her. I would build them up, then slowly begin to conspire against what they built. Then when it seems to be falling down around them, I strike killing them.
Then when they ask, "Why?" My answer would be, "Because that's what I do."
You just described my character :D. Although I will receive payments for my contracts, doesn't always mean that it needs to be money. Maybe I want info, or maybe I want a returned service. I do not kill for money, I kill for enjoyment, being payed is just a bonus.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"Who would Batman be without the Joker?"
I see exactly where Hobs is coming from, a true nemesis makes for great "good vs. evil" style role play. Kaiser Soze is a great example of an arch-villain. I'd love to see some of these types of role-players arise in PfO, as they will provide great entertainment value, and hopefully long term and far reaching struggles as a foil to the goodly players in the world.
Which gives me an idea for my Destiny's Twin: an evil druid hell bent on reclaiming the River Kingdoms from the creep of civilization...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If I were to play an evil character with "style", I would definitely go with an Assassin. But, I would not kill for money, greed is such a low brow motivation. I would first build trust with my mark, spending weeks or even months with him or her. I would build them up, then slowly begin to conspire against what they built. Then when it seems to be falling down around them, I strike killing them.
Then when they ask, "Why?" My answer would be, "Because that's what I do."
Which reminds me of the Count of Monte Cristo. His payment was revenge.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I second Hobs' point about needing good villains. In fact, in many cases the villain(when theyre not doing it for the 'evulz' obviously), or even an anti-hero, is much more interesting than the conventional hero. They usually have a lot more depth than Mr Blindingly-Virtuous-and-Uncorruptable.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
At the same time, I think truly playing Lawful Good is going to be extremely challenging. Not only will game mechanics smack you hard if you do anything bad, but trying to be that good should be a constant battle for the character - a continuous self-conflict of wanting to right wrongs and do what's best without using unbridled force to accomplish that goal. In my view of Lawful Good, these people are one step away from potential tyrants - when the lawfulness of their actions begins to overshadow their good intentions - when enforcing that law finds you justifying the use of extreme force and questionable preemptive strikes.
I think of characters like the Knights Templar - certainly viewed by medieval Europe as doing the lawful and good thing by charging off to save the holy land, yet slaughtering thousands and justifying their actions with the call, "God wills it." I tend to like my Lawful Good always needing to question the righteousness of their actions lest they tip too far over the edge in their quest to enforce that goodness. Picture the paladin, who after a day of battle, spends the evening in the chapel sanctuary, praying for the wisdom to make the right choice, doing penance for those he has killed who, without his knowledge, may not have been as deserving of death as he thought, and struggling to reassure himself that his cause is worth those possible mistakes and lost innocent lives.
As soon as you start using the sword before offering a chance of redemption, each life you take moves you a little closer to the edge of the cliff, where the law becomes more important than the goodness it is supposed to ensure. So playing Lawful Good, in my mind, should often be more of a struggle than playing a well crafted villain. Then again, I like my knights in shining armor being a bit tormented lest they become too one-dimensional and thereby less human.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Call it what you will- it's still griefing.
So when you play PnP PF, do you tell the DM they are griefing you?
Evil character are just another thread in the story. Without them, it becomes a very different game indeed. Yes, there will still be other aspects to the game such as bandits, political machinations, wars etc, but some people love the good v evil part of a game above and beyond anything else.
Call it what you will- it's still griefing.Martin, we disagree.
However, were we to go with what is evidently your definition of Griefing, then you are griefing us with your unreasonability.
Well executed riposte good Sir! I believe yon Troll is pierced! :p
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Martin,
How can playing an evil character that acts according to his alignment be griefing? How then would you define any PvP where your character might rightly and fairly be killed by your opponent? If they kill you because you're in the opposite faction and I do so because I'm of an opposing alignment, what is the difference? Now, if you are saying that any player who somehow negatively affects your game is a griefer, then I am afraid that you might be in the wrong game to begin with. If your desired game play demands that there be no negative player-to-player interaction at all, you really should be looking for a total PvE game (and even then, true griefers can find ways of making your game less enjoyable).
Afraid I have to agree with Martin. I was considering trying this MMO. I have been interested in them for years. I am a veteran PnP GM of several decades and this would have been my first foray into MMO's.
I have been following the PFO posts pretty closely, lurking & learning. You guys have convinced me that I have no interest in PFO in particular and MMO's in general.
Thanks for the Heads Up,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Afraid I have to agree with Martin. I was considering trying this MMO. I have been interested in them for years. I am a veteran PnP GM of several decades and this would have been my first foray into MMO's.
I have been following the PFO posts pretty closely, lurking & learning. You guys have convinced me that I have no interest in PFO in particular and MMO's in general.
Thanks for the Heads Up,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
To each their own, but what in particular about PFO has made you decide to not give it a chance? By being a open world sandbox player have the freedom to create their own stories- just as they do in PnP. Yes, there is PvP in the game play, but as a GM you engage in PvP every time you sit at the table with your players. The only difference is that NPC challenge being sent at you is a player instead of an NPC. If you give the game a chance instead of relying on your preconceptions and biases, then you may find something magical that you could enjoy for years. The choice is yours.
Afraid I have to agree with Martin. I was considering trying this MMO. I have been interested in them for years. I am a veteran PnP GM of several decades and this would have been my first foray into MMO's.
I have been following the PFO posts pretty closely, lurking & learning. You guys have convinced me that I have no interest in PFO in particular and MMO's in general.
Thanks for the Heads Up,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
As a DM you'll realize that the posts in this thread aren't blueprints for how players will act in the game, but ideas for how an opposing force might play their roles, just like "the bad guy" in a module. Pathfinder online will be a nitch game, meaning that it won't be designed to appeal to everyone.
If your interested in Pathfinder, you can share your concerns and perhaps we can answer your questions. Or what sort of games interest you and we can point you in the right direction perhaps?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The idea that someone who plays PnP role playing games, and doesn't undestnd that MMORPGs requires that players play opposing roles, at times, makes me wonder if they are truly serious.
Sounds like trolling to me, and as always the best way to deal with a troll is never to feed them. If they are not trolls, and just don't get what an MMO is or what PFO is trying to do, then we are better off without them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The irony being, Weslocke is playing the 'Way of the Wicked' AP, in which you are evil and followers of Asmodeus and visit his unholy wrath on all and sundry.
Playing PFO will be no different than playing WotW. Good, evil, knights, rogues, paladins, devils, demons, liches...all sorts are needed to make a great story.
Back under the bridge beastie!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wouldn't see it as such.
In the last MUD I played, I was a very high level rogue - higher level than 99% of the rest of the community. I could solo most of the PvE content, and most PvP encounters went my way unless I was caught unawares. Basically, the lasy year or so I spent playing, I played as the antagonist from the shadows. I didn't (generally) engage anyone directly, but more tried to generate roleplay and stimulate intrigue, escalations of conflict, mysterious boons to noobs, etc etc...
It fit in not too badly with my character concept (worshipper of the deity of freedom) and I know for a fact dozens of plots and storylines were created because of it. Bottom line though, it wasn't griefing and it created content for others - plus it was fun.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This thread is helping to convince me NOT to play Pathfinder Online.
If you are discouraged by this thread, then this game isn't for you. Evil lives in the world, without it, you would not have heros. If you want PVE and killing NPC mobs, there are 100 MMO's to go play (WoW, SWTOR, ect.) but this is a game of nearly all PCs which mean you need evil PCs to fight (assuming your good) and this is just a thread for us to discuss that fact.
So again, if your too carebear to participate in this style of game, don't play it, and EVE is simular so don't go there either. You won't be happy.
Side note, as has been mentioned here already, there is a HUGE!!!!! difference between Evil characters and Evil people. Evil people are griefers and need to be removed from existance by ALL OTHER GAMERS as they ruin the fun and enjoyment of all they encounter. Evil characters are there to provide a nemesis for the good characters to strive to remove from the game world. Think of it like we are the joker to your batman, or doomsday to your superman...I am the assassin to your paladin, get it?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Got a question for you guys. Would you consider it greifing if, as a necromancer, I help along escalation cycles in hexes owned by ppl I don't like? Is that playing evil with class or not in your eyes.
That would not be griefing INHO because that is following your character and what you would do in a situation like that. As a necromancer, coming accross other undead, you might try to control them to increase your own horde, or you might just direct them as if they were part of your horde. But yes, that would make you a larger target IF you were ever to be connected with it. A true mastermind would do it without being linked to it. That would be a truely evil character and make for some interesting content for good players. They start wondering why it is advancing so quickly and may require them to call upon allies to quell the rise of the undead.
I think it is a great thing to see and do. Just remember, as NPC's there is a chance you might get attaked by them if you fail a check or get too close. But that makes it fun for you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Got a question for you guys. Would you consider it greifing if, as a necromancer, I help along escalation cycles in hexes owned by ppl I don't like? Is that playing evil with class or not in your eyes.
If you figured out a way to do it that was surely not an exploit then I think it would make all the sense in the world to do so, and I would not consider it griefing at all. A form of asymmetric warfare, sure, but not griefing.
@Phyllain It would be griefing if somehow you kept on targetting the same couple guys and constantly harassed them at the exclusion of others. If you are using the cycle to rampage around a hex and indiscriminately attack any adventurers, that's not griefing. Just chaotic.
Declaring war on their settlement and using hex-calation cycles to accomplish your goal to wipe them out would be lawful. And evil. And very, very classy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My hope is that with the game growing from a relatively small population (avoiding the multiple server rush model of most theme park launches), people who abuse role-playing evil - use it as a cover for true griefing - will become known pretty quickly. If you compare a WoW server at launch with multiple thousands to this games launch, starting with the way GW is running its beta program, it might be more akin to comparing who you know in a big city to a relatively small town. If you're going to act like a jerk and try to pass it off as "I'm role-playing evil", you're neighbors will know and call you out on it. Though some tend to be more skeptical, I have faith that a tight knit community of players will have some success in policing it's own.
No Guys, I was not trolling. I am quite serious.
I understand that a portion of the community must be evil.
I just completely disagree that acting in the manner that you guys are describing will, in ANY way, result in, and I quote, "Memorable evil characters".
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
So how do you guys propose to circumvent apathy by the other players? If they do not care who you are/were, then how will you be memorable?
On a side note: I am purchasing Way of the Wicked to RUN sometime next year. I am currently RUNNING Kingmaker. I have not PLAYED in more than a decade. Just correcting Jimini's assumptions there.
Carry on, please. Not trolling. Just lurking...and learning.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No Guys, I was not trolling. I am quite serious.
I understand that a portion of the community must be evil.
I just completely disagree that acting in the manner that you guys are describing will, in ANY way, result in, and I quote, "Memorable evil characters".
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
So how do you guys propose to circumvent apathy by the other players? If they do not care who you are/were, then how will you be memorable?
On a side note: I am purchasing Way of the Wicked to RUN sometime next year. I am currently RUNNING Kingmaker. I have not PLAYED in more than a decade. Just correcting Jimini's assumptions there.
Carry on, please. Not trolling. Just lurking...and learning.
I completely disagree nd your friends in MMOs are only familiar with the mundane evil, not the mastermind evil.
A player who rps his or her evil PC with intelligence and style will be remembered. Not necessary for the evil act itself, but for the way they did it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
They are talking about Themepark MMOs like WoW, Everquest, DDO, or Star Wars: The Old Republic which is not what PFO will be. PFO will be a sandbox, meaning the content is created by players, not the game. The only games that I can think of that would be similar to how the content of PFO will work is EVE, Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. If your players haven't played those games, they are giving you bad information, because PFO will not follow the conventions of a Themepark.
So how do you guys propose to circumvent apathy by the other players? If they do not care who you are/were, then how will you be memorable?
Because this is a Sandbox, (and a relatively low population one) community will become very important. The game will force social interaction in everything from having access to a safe town to trade to crafting, to training. Items in Themeparks are gained though adventuring and solo-able quests. Items in PFO will need to be purchased from crafters who will need to transport items to market to sell after being made from refined resources that the refiners made from gather materials in the wilderness. Bandits will be preying on the gathers and crafters as they bring their items to market. Players will build their on cities that will go to war with each other over resources and alignment differences.
Apathy will be overcome because there will always be a real risk of conflict with other players and the purpose of this thread is how character will play the Role of villains in memorable ways. A player run villain will always be more memorable than an AI because they are adaptable.They will write their on dialogue instead of following the same script over and over again on repetitive raids. Because there will be no themepark stile cut-scene villains in this game. We get to be them ourselves. For those the choose to be heroes instead, defeating the villain players becomes even more rewarding because there is a REAL challenge in trying to deduce what that bastard is going to do, instead of just fight though countless trash mobs and have the best gear to take down a mindless AI.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Understand that very few MMOs out there currently running are what we are calling 'sandbox'. Almost all existing MMOs built like a themepark ride-on-rails and there really isn't opportunity for a player to craft a good villain. PFO is intended to provide an environment filled with props, and we players are supposed to create the real content and play it just like we were role-playing. We WILL be roleplaying. We have experienced dungeon masters among us and authors of fantasy and science fiction: we will craft our tales and create our adventures from the tools goblinworks is laboring to create for us.
The memorability of our villains will depend on the quality of our play and the plotlines our own content-authors can manage to generate. We will populate our stage. The slings and arrows are ours to cast. The glory, and the responsibility, will belong to us.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Dear Weslocke,
Too often it is difficult to determine intent simply from text. Thank you for the reply and the clarification.
I think the first thing to remember here is that we are discussing role-players - people who embrace the RPG in MMORPG rather than simply viweing MMORPGs as any other MMO. Any visit to WoW will show you that though a game can be classified as an MMORPG, most of the players are not role-players. There's a real difference between saying you are playing a "role" simply because you're character's name is not your name, his race is not your race, his "career" is not yours, etc., and actually playing a role as you do in a table-top RPG )and as most of us posting here hope to do in PFO). Most non-role-playing players, even if they find themselves in an MMORPG, approach the game as if it were any other MMO - they care about gaining levels, skill acquisition, the best gear, the most efficient way to blast through a dungeon, etc. To them, they would likely make no distinction between a random player-killer who kills often and a role-played evil character who, in keeping with his/her alignment, might sometimes kill. From their perspective, based on how they approach the game, either case represents another player killing them and delaying their progression in whatever endeavor they were currently undertaking. But this is far more a cause of how they approach the game, not because there is no distinction between the two.
As you expressed, you appreciate the value of evil in any RPG, and likely would acknowledge that evil controlled by a player (the game master in table top, and other players in an MMORPG) make for far more fascinating game-play than do AI controlled NPCs or monsters. Your concern seems to be that role-played evil characters would be no more memorable or beneficial to the community's role-play enrichment and entertainment than someone who killed his neighbors for his own twisted enjoyment (i.e. a random player killer).
I can only speak from personal experience here. Certainly, some random player-killers may become well known (read infamous) due to how much of a jerk they are being. However, I have played in games (mainly Ultima Online) where individual role-played evil characters were very well known in the community and respected for their power, intelligence, the organizations they rule over, etc. Besides these evil community icons, there were several "freelance" bad guys with noteworthy reputations. I personally ran a plot where I played an evil character who was rightly accused of several murders in the community. This lead to a server-wide manhunt, a bounty that at its height reached 50,000 gold, his capture and imprisonment, and a scheduled trial. Given the number of people who were pulled into this open-to-all story-line, I can only assume that my villain's name became rather well known. Likewise, the entertainment it seemed to afford those who participated would seem to validate the existence of such a villain.
Certainly, those who role-play evil well tend to be mindful of the privilege that their RP community is giving them - the opportunity to make other role-player's lives a bit more difficult now and again in exchange for the realism of meaningful player-to-player conflict which they are providing by their evil actions. Abuse that privilege, and you will find yourself marked as an annoying random player-killer.
As I've stated before in this thread, I never randomly killed anyone. My targets always had a purpose in a larger plot, and quite often, I knew my targets' players out-of-character. Do I think you can commit spontaneous role-played acts of evil without abusing your RP community privilege - yes. Bluudwolf, for instance, plans to role-play a bandit, which means he may be accosting character's he's never met and has no clue who their players are OOC. But even then, he has already said he will be using something like a "Stand and Deliver" mechanism, thus giving his victims a chance to role-play the encounter and pay up without committing what would seem like a random player-killing. Will he become a "memorable" name in the game for his evil acts - I certainly think so. And by playing that role, he will likely find himself the target of wonderfully entertaining, long running conflicts with those who will be role-playing caravan guards and do-gooders. I look forward to their clashes, their cat-and-mouse maneuverings, and the stories that will rise from all of it.
I hope this perspective helps.
Hobs
No Guys, I was not trolling. I am quite serious.
I understand that a portion of the community must be evil.
I just completely disagree that acting in the manner that you guys are describing will, in ANY way, result in, and I quote, "Memorable evil characters".
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
So how do you guys propose to circumvent apathy by the other players? If they do not care who you are/were, then how will you be memorable?
On a side note: I am purchasing Way of the Wicked to RUN sometime next year. I am currently RUNNING Kingmaker. I have not PLAYED in more than a decade. Just correcting Jimini's assumptions there.
Carry on, please. Not trolling. Just lurking...and learning.
Well I'm glad your open to learning what will make PFO (Pathfinder Online) stand out from the other MMOs being made nowadays. :)
If I could make a suggestion, ask your PnP group to tell you about PvP in the games they play, have played. Chances are what they describe will be large masses of players all fighting 1 on 1 battles, or instanced scenarios like CTF (Capture the Flag) where two groups are pitted against each other with the winner receiving some points or maybe some type of coin, these types of fights have no lasting impact on the game world and often players just repeat these scenarios over and over for hours on end. In PFO battles between players usually end in something memorable or a goal that can be recognized by everyone, like a group of players turning back an assault on their settlement, or a group winning the rights to harvest a node of rare material their crafters need to create stuff.
Another important feature in PFO is loot in PvP. The winner of a fight between players receives the right to loot some amount of items from the loser. It won't be that the winner gets all of the losers stuff though. As a player you will have "threads" that you can use to "bind" items to your character making it (nearly) impossible for a player to lose these items. This brings up another important point, gear. In pretty much all MMOs gear is horribly difficult to acquire often taking hours of dungeon crawling just for the chance of getting 1 piece. To lose a piece of gear that took 8 hours to get would be horrible. In PFO gear will be MUCH cheaper and easier to get. The majority of gear a player possesses will be crafted by another player. Most players will keep replacement gear in their bank vaults so when they lose a piece, they can just go grab a replacement.
Another feature of PFO is the leveling curve, which will be much narrower then in other games. In other games a level 15 player can take on and totally obliterate 5 level 4 players. In PFO the narrowed level curve will mean that the level 4's might not be able to defeat the level 15 player, but chances are if they work together they can hold them off and enable most of them to escape the encounter. I would suggest asking your PnP group to describe the outcome of the same sort of battle in their games.
Sorry this is so wordy, just trying to provide you with enough information to help you understand how PFO will differ from other games like Wow or Stqr Wqrs TOR.
All this matters because the evil players won't be unbeatable even if they are higher "level" then you. They won't be able to just walk all over you and take all your stuff, and I'm trying to describe the reasons why.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
At the same time, I think truly playing Lawful Good is going to be extremely challenging. Not only will game mechanics smack you hard if you do anything bad, but trying to be that good should be a constant battle for the character - a continuous self-conflict of wanting to right wrongs and do what's best without using unbridled force to accomplish that goal. In my view of Lawful Good, these people are one step away from potential tyrants - when the lawfulness of their actions begins to overshadow their good intentions - when enforcing that law finds you justifying the use of extreme force and questionable preemptive strikes.
I think of characters like the Knights Templar - certainly viewed by medieval Europe as doing the lawful and good thing by charging off to save the holy land, yet slaughtering thousands and justifying their actions with the call, "God wills it." I tend to like my Lawful Good always needing to question the righteousness of their actions lest they tip too far over the edge in their quest to enforce that goodness. Picture the paladin, who after a day of battle, spends the evening in the chapel sanctuary, praying for the wisdom to make the right choice, doing penance for those he has killed who, without his knowledge, may not have been as deserving of death as he thought, and struggling to reassure himself that his cause is worth those possible mistakes and lost innocent lives.
As soon as you start using the sword before offering a chance of redemption, each life you take moves you a little closer to the edge of the cliff, where the law becomes more important than the goodness it is supposed to ensure. So playing Lawful Good, in my mind, should often be more of a struggle than playing a well crafted villain. Then again, I like my knights in shining armor being a bit tormented lest they become too one-dimensional and thereby less human.
Yes, that can be a very interesting dimension. It really depends upon what sort of Fantasy I'm in the mood for. Sometimes I enjoy the level of complexity that you describes. Many times, though, I prefer a much more black and white and simplistic model. Where the forces of Law and Good are Just and Right and True, simply because they are. Where they excersize no self-doubt of the absolute neccesity of taking the sword to smite down Evil without hesitation and no contrition for doing so. Where the only doubt is perhaps thier strenght in prevailing against the odds and where Evil is irredeemably so and "other".
Fantasy IS supposed to be a form of escapism for players, is it not? Speaking for myself, the binary simplicity of such a scenario is often a welcome escape from the complexities of the world as it is. I'm not saying one is better or more fitting then the other, but clearly there is room for both in fantasy?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No Guys, I was not trolling. I am quite serious.
I just completely disagree that acting in the manner that you guys are describing will, in ANY way, result in, and I quote, "Memorable evil characters".
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
For me, this couldn't be further from the truth. STORYTIME! (TL;DR at bottom)
For me, EQ is the MMO that made the most lasting impression (even over WoW, despite playing it for a longer period of time). I don't remember much of the GM-created holiday events or guild events. I don't remember how I got my Flowing Black Silk Sash (I think I camped Najena for weeks?), I don't remember any bosses.
The only things I remember with any clarity are some old PvP hotspots of mine and a few specific PvP encounters. Some of them were even matches, some of them I was grossly outmatched.
I remember killing players that waltzed onto the sands of Ro thinking they could camp *my* dervish camps (it was common courtesy to ask which mobs were being camped when entering a zone). Actually, this is the biggest reason I went to a PvP server in EQ: on the 'blue' (PvE) servers, the PvE griefing was terrible. People would just run in and start killing your mobs and kill steal, just because they had a higher-damage nuke or whatever. On the PvP server, I could fight for what was mine.
I remember using the typical slow-swing-timer 2-handed weapon PvP strategy of 'jousting' on my gnome Shadowknight in the caves outside of the Bazaar on Luclin. One time, a troll Shadowknight killed me while I had a bunch of mosquito-like mobs on me. I died. I yoinked my corpse while he was attacking some mobs, and for the next hour or so we must have 1v1 jousted to the death a dozen times. I don't even remember if I ended up winning most of the bouts... I just remember that it was awesome. We both wanted to camp that tiny cave, and we had a good fight over it.
I remember being hunted by characters of much higher level that were camping the Spectres at the Oasis. I remember that I was sometimes able to evade them for awhile by using Shadowstep (a random 50m(?) teleport) repeatedly, sometimes getting placed out-of-sight on the other side of a dune or out in the water. More often, I would die. Then I would sneak back near my corpse, wait for them to get distracted by chasing somebody else or a mob, and run in and drag my corpse away. I then stalked this much higher-level character, waiting (sometimes for more than 15-30 minutes) for an opportune moment to be able to safely do some harm. Usually one of the other persons he killed would log on their higher-level toon, or get a buddy to come help kill him; sometimes I would wait until he/she pulled a particularly difficult mob or group of mobs. That's when I would pop out and throw out some slows/debuffs/dots/nukes to tip the balance against him/her.
In general, I remember constantly panning my camera around while I was sitting to regen mana/health, checking for both PvE and PvP threats. I remember scouting a large area around the area I intended to level in, to check for these NPC and PC threats before I got started. In some zones, I would check the higher-level areas that were often camped: If there was a person there that I had seen PKing lower levels while they waited for it to spawn, I would go to another zone or be extra careful to hide after each fight. I would pull mobs to just below the crest of a hill before I actually started fighting so I could see anybody coming up from the other side and run away before they got to me.
I guess I mostly spent hours not leveling, but instead simply playing. I fostered a general reputation as a BAMF, almost never letting somebody kill me without repurcussions, even if they were much higher-level and impossible for me to kill. I would simply watch and wait for long periods of time until I could cause them some harm... then run far away. If I had had several engagements with a character, when I found them in my leveling zone (from my scouting habits) I would simply make my presence known by standing still on a hill nearby, looking at them with them targeted. Eventually, they would notice me, and if they didn't run over to kill me, I didn't bother stalking them.
TL;DR: Meaningless PvP in WoW is meaningless. You don't stay in the same area for weeks/months at a time (to get to know adversaries there), and there is no reason to PvP. I will love PvP in PFO because I will remember 'that guy that took my harvesting node - and my new helm, to boot!' and when I see him next (since we are each based out of nearby settlements) I will make him/her remember ME =D
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
While I would echo the sentiments that many others have expressed here in terms of the goals PFO has as a game and it's differences from other (Themepark) MMO's.... I certainly wouldn't dismiss anyone who enjoyed Pathfinder PnP but had expressed no interest in PFO.
Lets be honest, the focuses and capabilities of the 2 games and mediums are quite different. The things one can do and the experience one has with a small group of players and a human GM will be vastly different then what PFO has to offer. It's also probably unfortunately true that some of the more "notorious villians" in PFO will not by people who RP thier characters as one (Though hopefully we will have a healthy share of those and I've experienced many excellent and enjoyable ones in MUD's) but individuals who resort to extreme meta-gaming without a thought to the sort of things a villian would actualy have to do, if RP'd.