| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've searched some of the previous threads pertaining to this issue, especially the ones revolving around the use of the ring of revelation and the holy avenger, but have failed to find a conclusive answer to this matter. It would really be helpful if a member of the design team could clarify this issue.
1) Does emulating a class feature include emulating the class itself? Can UMD be used to activate a ring of revelation or the paladin-specific abilities of a holy avenger?
2) Must it be used to emulate the abilities of a class that the character does not have levels in (for instance, can a heavens oracle use UMD to activate a ring of revelation with a nature revelation)?
3) Can you use UMD to emulate a class ability THAT YOU HAVE, but at a higher level? (This would mainly apply to multiclass characters, I assume).
Edit: question 3 added.
Just for starters I wanted to warn you that calling out the Dev's to make a call on something rarely goes well on these boards. You're better off calling for advice in general and hoping a Dev drops their say into the mix.
As to your question, I'm only going to reference the RAW and tell you how I'd run it.
Use Magic Device[/b]]
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. (see above).
If I'm running the game you can use UMD to emulate the Paladin class and make a subsequent separate UMD check for an alignment requirement of that class to activate a magic item. I'm pretty sure the RAW listed above makes that pretty clear. It doesn't mean you are temporarily a Paladin or any other class you don't have levels in. It just means you are emulating the specifics of that class necessary to activate whatever item you're attempting to use.
Just for starters I wanted to warn you that calling out the Dev's to make a call on something rarely goes well on these boards. You're better off calling for advice in general and hoping a Dev drops their say into the mix.
As to your question, I'm only going to reference the RAW and tell you how I'd run it.
If I'm running the game you can use UMD to emulate the Paladin class and make a subsequent separate UMD check for an alignment requirement of that class to activate a magic item. I'm pretty sure the RAW listed above makes that pretty clear. It doesn't mean you are temporarily a Paladin or any other class you don't have levels in. It just means you are emulating the specifics of that class necessary to activate whatever item you're attempting to use.Use Magic Device[/b]]
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. (see above).
Ah, but is there a distinction between emulating a "class feature" and emulating a "class"? That is the crux of the question.
And insofar as this is a genuine question concerning the rules of the game, I do not see why it would be unreasonable to request a clarification. I am not demanding that they attend at my beck and call, but I would surely appreciate if one of the team could give a comment as to how they intended the rules to run, if for no other reason than customer support.
There is no catch-all answer. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Generally speaking you can emulate a class ability to activate an item unless it says you can't, such as with the ring of revelation.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.
As for the holy avenger it does not require a paladin feature. It requires you to be a paladin, and there is no UMD check that simulates an actual class so you could not use that.
After reading this I guess that takes care of the ring also.
The golem manual activates as a spell trigger item from the way I read it so that should work.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
There is no catch-all answer. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Generally speaking you can emulate a class ability to activate an item unless it says you can't, such as with the ring of revelation.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.As for the holy avenger it does not require a paladin feature. It requires you to be a paladin, and there is no UMD check that simulates an actual class so you could not use that.
After reading this I guess that takes care of the ring also.
The golem manual activates as a spell trigger item from the way I read it so that should work.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
Which leaves the rather curious fringe case of an oracle attempting to emulate the class ability of an orable of a different mystery. Do the words "another class" prevent a character from emulating an alternative class ability?
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Which leaves the rather curious fringe case of an oracle attempting to emulate the class ability of an orable of a different mystery. Do the words "another class" prevent a character from emulating an alternative class ability?There is no catch-all answer. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Generally speaking you can emulate a class ability to activate an item unless it says you can't, such as with the ring of revelation.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.As for the holy avenger it does not require a paladin feature. It requires you to be a paladin, and there is no UMD check that simulates an actual class so you could not use that.
After reading this I guess that takes care of the ring also.
The golem manual activates as a spell trigger item from the way I read it so that should work.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
RAW I would say no Oracles are not restricted if they have UMD, since it does not say that Oracles need to have the exact mystery needed, and that it can not be bypassed with UMD. I don't think it is RAI however. I think this is one to FAQ.
edit:edited.
Actually, it says "The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring". It is precisely for this reason, and future potential similar situations, that I have asked my second question.
There is no catch-all answer. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Generally speaking you can emulate a class ability to activate an item unless it says you can't, such as with the ring of revelation.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.As for the holy avenger it does not require a paladin feature. It requires you to be a paladin, and there is no UMD check that simulates an actual class so you could not use that.
After reading this I guess that takes care of the ring also.
The golem manual activates as a spell trigger item from the way I read it so that should work.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
This is good logic. I'm sorry I never actually took a look at the specifics of the ring or the holy avenger, and was just going off of UMD in general. The fact that the ring without a doubt says it has no effect on a non-oracle is pretty clear. As for the Holy Avenger, that seems less clear to me. I could see it being allowed by some GM's and disallowed by others.
It's tricky because the RAI of UMD is to allow someone to overcome just about anything that would prevent them from "activating" a magical device. Of course "activating" in some instances really becomes the key concept. Are you "activating" the +5 holiness of the holy avenger? Or is that magic that can't be "fooled" by your ability to emulate other races/class features/alignments etc. Like I said I could see some GM's allowing it, and others not. Because of that I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a clear answer from the Dev's. If they are of the mindset that they don't care if you allow it or not, they're unlikely to offer up anything. Of course I've been surprised in the past. :)
There is no catch-all answer. It really depends on what you are trying to do. Generally speaking you can emulate a class ability to activate an item unless it says you can't, such as with the ring of revelation.
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself; for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the oracle can use that ability one additional time per day. The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.As for the holy avenger it does not require a paladin feature. It requires you to be a paladin, and there is no UMD check that simulates an actual class so you could not use that.
After reading this I guess that takes care of the ring also.
The golem manual activates as a spell trigger item from the way I read it so that should work.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.This is good logic. I'm sorry I never actually took a look at the specifics of the ring or the holy avenger, and was just going off of UMD in general. The fact that the ring without a doubt says it has no effect on a non-oracle is pretty clear. As for the Holy Avenger, that seems less clear to me. I could see it being allowed by some GM's and disallowed by others.
It's tricky...
For the record, "GMs should adjudicate this on their own depending on their game" is a perfectly reasonable response. What I am interested in finding out is whether this is the view of the developers (that is, that it was left intentionally vague), or if they had intended it to work in a specific way.
As it stands, the second limb of my question remains unanswered. =(
Actually, it says "The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring". It is precisely for this reason, and future potential similar situations, that I have asked my second question.
I saw that, but UMD allows you to emulate class features. That is why I said RAI is no. The only complete RAW answer is that you must be an oracle and UMD can't bypass that. In my games I would not allow it though.
1) Does emulating a class feature include emulating the class itself? Can UMD be used to activate a ring of revelation or the paladin-specific abilities of a holy avenger?
2) Must it be used to emulate the abilities of a class that the character does not have levels in (for instance, can a heavens oracle use UMD to activate a ring of revelation with a nature revelation)?
1. No. Use Magic Device doesn't let you emulate a class. It only lets you emulate class features.
2. Yes, but in your example the ring states that it doesn't do anything for non-oracles. . . in that case, see 1).
3.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
This is good logic. I'm sorry I never actually took a look at the specifics of the ring or the holy avenger, and was just going off of UMD in general. The fact that the ring without a doubt says it has no effect on a non-oracle is pretty clear. As for the Holy Avenger, that seems less clear to me. I could see it being allowed by some GM's and disallowed by others.
It's tricky because the RAI of UMD is to allow someone to overcome just about anything that would prevent them from "activating" a magical device. Of course "activating" in some instances really becomes the key concept. Are you "activating" the +5 holiness of the holy avenger? Or is that magic that can't be "fooled" by your ability to emulate other races/class features/alignments etc. Like I said I could see some GM's allowing it, and others not. Because of that I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a clear answer from the Dev's. If they are of the mindset that they don't care if you allow it or not, they're unlikely to offer up anything. Of course I've been surprised in the past. :)
The holy avenger says you must be a paladin. There is no getting around that. UMD also has specific rules on how it allows you to activate items. Emulating a class is not one of them.
For the sake of argument let's say a GM allows it. How long until the next UMD check? Is it 1 swing of the sword, 1 round? I ask because each use of a magic item requires its own check.
Of course you can fool these things into thinking you're an oracle or a paladin. That's the whole point of UMD - you can use magical devices that your class can't normally use.
No you can't. The point of UMD is to activate magic items, but certain ones were made for class X only, and were written to be that way. There is no pretend to be a class _____ paragraph. This skill is written with very precise language on how to use it, and nothing in it could tell you how to use the holy avenger as an example.
Actually, it says "The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring". It is precisely for this reason, and future potential similar situations, that I have asked my second question.I saw that, but UMD allows you to emulate class features. That is why I said RAI is no. The only complete RAW answer is that you must be an oracle and UMD can't bypass that. In my games I would not allow it though.
With due respect sir, I do not think either you or my humble self are qualified to comment independently on what the rules as intended are, though we may surely offer reasoned and intelligent *guesses*. I can see the merit of your view, for sure. I merely suggest that the only people qualified to declare RAI are the developers themselves.
Incidentally, this line of discussion has prompted a third question on the use of this interesting skill:
Can you use UMD to emulate a class ability THAT YOU HAVE, but at a higher level? (This would mainly apply to multiclass characters, I assume).
Can you use UMD to emulate a class ability THAT YOU HAVE, but at a higher level? (This would mainly apply to multiclass characters, I assume).
Yes.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.
Actually, it says "The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring". It is precisely for this reason, and future potential similar situations, that I have asked my second question.I saw that, but UMD allows you to emulate class features. That is why I said RAI is no. The only complete RAW answer is that you must be an oracle and UMD can't bypass that. In my games I would not allow it though.With due respect sir, I do not think either you or my humble self are qualified to comment independently on what the rules as intended are, though we may surely offer reasoned and intelligent *guesses*. I can see the merit of your view, for sure. I merely suggest that the only people qualified to declare RAI are the developers themselves.
Incidentally, this line of discussion has prompted a third question on the use of this interesting skill:
Can you use UMD to emulate a class ability THAT YOU HAVE, but at a higher level? (This would mainly apply to multiclass characters, I assume).
I think I am qualified(with most rules). Being a dev is not a requirement to be able to interpret rules. Sometimes they have to consult each other. I will admit the ring is something I don't have a clear answer on though. :)
As to your last question I would say yes. UMD says you can emulate a class ability. It does not say having the ability naturally means you can't emulate a higher version of it. Now if the wording of the magic item says you must be level ____ of class ____ then that is different since you have no way to emulate class levels.
Lets say you are a level 3 paladin, and you need to activate aura of resolve(level 8 pally) for a magic item.
Then you need a 28 UMD check. This is possible at level 3, but not likely so you better roll high. :)
As a house rule I would allow your actual class level to count towards the check
This is good logic. I'm sorry I never actually took a look at the specifics of the ring or the holy avenger, and was just going off of UMD in general. The fact that the ring without a doubt says it has no effect on a non-oracle is pretty clear. As for the Holy Avenger, that seems less clear to me. I could see it being allowed by some GM's and disallowed by others.
It's tricky because the RAI of UMD is to allow someone to overcome just about anything that would prevent them from "activating" a magical device. Of course "activating" in some instances really becomes the key concept. Are you "activating" the +5 holiness of the holy avenger? Or is that magic that can't be "fooled" by your ability to emulate other races/class features/alignments etc. Like I said I could see some GM's allowing it, and others not. Because of that I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a clear answer from the Dev's. If they are of the mindset that they don't care if you allow it or not, they're unlikely to offer up anything. Of course I've been surprised in the past. :)
The holy avenger says you must be a paladin. There is no getting around that. UMD also has specific rules on how it allows you to activate items. Emulating a class is not one of them.
For the sake of argument let's say a GM allows it. How long until the next UMD check? Is it 1 swing of the sword, 1 round? I ask because each use of a magic item requires its own check.
Honestly I'm not sure how I would even rule this. It's never come up. If I were going to rule in favor, my adjudication of it would be that you need to make a UMD check to emulate whatever class feature it is that the sword is "reading" (in this case I would say you are pretending to have whatever "paladin-ness" required to activate the enhanced bonuses of the sword) and a subsequent UMD alignment check (unless of course you were lawful good already) every hour.
My rules backup would be this:
Use Magic Device[/url]]If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
I think I am qualified(with most rules). Being a dev is not a requirement to be able to interpret rules. Sometimes they have to consult each other. I will admit the ring is something I don't have a clear answer on though. :)
Oh I do not question your ability to interpret rules. However, speaking about rules as intended is another matter entirely, since you are then making an assertion regarding another person's intent. That is, RAW can be conclusively discussed based on the actual words and application of proficiency with the English language. RAI however is purely speculative unless the person who formed the intention actually voices what the intent is. (Sorry if this seems to be overly pedantic. It's the curse of a law grad. =p)
The proverbial bugbear in the skill description is the term "another class", which taken literally means that the class features emulated using the UMD skill can only be used to emulate features of classes that the user has no ranks in. Due to the anomalous nature of this in application, however, a clarification is arguably warranted.
I think I am qualified(with most rules). Being a dev is not a requirement to be able to interpret rules. Sometimes they have to consult each other. I will admit the ring is something I don't have a clear answer on though. :)Oh I do not question your ability to interpret rules. However, speaking about rules as intended is another matter entirely, since you are then making an assertion regarding another person's intent. That is, RAW can be conclusively discussed based on the actual words and application of proficiency with the English language. RAI however is purely speculative unless the person who formed the intention actually voices what the intent is. (Sorry if this seems to be overly pedantic. It's the curse of a law grad. =p)
The proverbial bugbear in the skill description is the term "another class", which taken literally means that the class features emulated using the UMD skill can only be used to emulate features of classes that the user has no ranks in. Due to the anomalous nature of this in application, however, a clarification is arguably warranted.
I knew what you meant. I just figured since I am right most of the time(over 90%*) I pretty much see things the same way they do.
*Sadly enough I was keeping track at one point. I wanted to know how well I knew the rules. There are other posters here that are also very good at figuring out intent. It is not just about guessing at what someone means. It is often using precedent in various other situations and/or logic that allows me to figure it out. It is really hard to explain.
RAI however is purely speculative unless the person who formed the intention actually voices what the intent is. (Sorry if this seems to be overly pedantic. It's the curse of a law grad. =p)
Lack of proof that you are not right does not mean you are not right. :)
Even if the announcers had not chimed in to agree with me on some of these posts I still would have been correct. I just would have had no proof.
PS:I get your point though. :)