Is leadership broken?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally, I use a hacked-together combination of Ultimate Charisma from Everyman Gaming and Ultimate Relationships from Legendary Games, so they can take a single cohort adventuring with them (and any others aren’t working for the party in their off-time), have to develop their relationship with the NPCs enough for the NPC to want to even be a cohort, and have only NPCs who exist in the campaign already available.

Which has meant that, for example, the paladin has managed to attract (heh) a nymph as a possible cohort... if he ever thinks to ask her.

Liberty's Edge

You might check out the alternate Leadership feats in the expanded and updated New Paths Compendium hardcover.

Leadership is split out into two separate feats which can be taken individually. This reduces some of the potential for abuse and the GM can even choose to only allow one but not the other if he / she wants.

A recent review of the New Paths Compendium wrote:

The Alternate feats section sees the Leadership feat broken down into two feats: Leadership (Cohort) and Leadership (Followers). I think it may be the solution to the question about whether or not the original Leadership feat is too powerful. These will be the default versions of Leadership in my campaign should anyone choose to go that route.

Liberty's Edge

It depends on the campaign I think, if your in a kingdom building campaign then leadership makes sense. Less so in a random dungeon crawl campaign.


I have an Iron Gods campaign in which the “should” behind leadership’s text became completely understandable. The party got the end boss of book one as a cohort, after having looted her two books ago and having her follow them around since. She didn’t exactly have time to regather appropriate WBL gear.


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Personally, I have no problem with the party getting NPC help, but I prefer it to be the sort of thing that happens naturally through roleplaying or because I (as the GM) deemed that they needed someone around who can fill a gap in the party- knowing about certain things, able to pick locks, the ability to cast water breathing or plane shift, etc.

In my experience, people are more apt to treat a cohort as akin to "property" if it's something they invested resources into, whereas a helpful NPC gets treated more like an actual person.

Scarab Sages

I'm with the Cabbage.

I see it as a large part of my job, as GM, to run the NPCs of the world as if they were real people, with realistic motives (fantastic races and powers notwithstanding).

In which case, I can't see a valid reason why an NPC wouldn't want to help PCs who have saved their village/flock/spouse/children/kingdom from a bad end. To the limits of their abilities, of course.

That can take many forms, from free board and lodging, a sack of supplies for your journey, improved gear, minor magic, free future healing, or other favours, like keeping your true identities secret and lying to the evil Baron's troops which way you went; it makes sense for these people to help their own cause, by helping the Big Damn Heroes who helped them.

And sometimes, that means some of them may decide to wander after the PCs.
Some of these people may be big damn heroes in their own right, some may have more modest abilities, some may be complete novices, or even hero-worshipping children.

By retaining GM control of these NPCs, I can reward those PCs and players who deserve them, and withold them from those who refuse to interact with the inhabitants of the setting, such as murderhobos, monosyllabic loners, the guy who enters every town 'in Stealth mode, no-one can ever see me, did I mention my Stealth is really high, I got +10 from armour, +4 from X, +2 from Y, +6 from...<yawn, yes, you may have mentioned it...>'.

I dislike having players who avoid all contact with NPCs, from session 1 onwards, or worse, act like a giant, pulsating dick to everyone they meet, suddenly decide that NPCs are going to love him and follow him around, just because he had a spare feat.


Shifty wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
"Well, my cohort just reached level six. Hey, he should take Leadership too, and get a cohort himself! Wait...." *begin breakage*
Don't plant those seeds man... nothing good will come of it.

Been there, done that.

Years ago, I was a player in a long-running game. The GM was a bit of a hard-ass (especially with his house-rules), and even though everyone but him agreed that I had earned (through role-playing) the devotion of several NPCs, the DM would not allow me to consider them followers. Leadership was mandatory to have ANY, in his opinion.
Having these followers would have in no way afforded me great power or anything. It was basically thematic, and would have been cool for the story. The character was a cleric, and they would have essentially been my 'flock'.

He explained how he ran the leadership feat, and (being an experienced/salty player at the time), I saw some pretty juicy exploitable opportunities.
Did I mention, we were 15th level?
So, in full compliance with his rules, I took the leadership feat and put together my now 'legal' followers.

Got myself a cohort (14th level)----with leadership, who had himself a cohort, and so on, and so on. And all the while, the followers were adding up as well.
Keep in mind, that at higher levels (in his rules), even some of the followers are high enough to take leadership too.

I spent a great deal of time compiling the 'holy army', and presented it to him at the next game.

Hilarity ensued.


PodTrooper wrote:

Got myself a cohort (14th level)----with leadership, who had himself a cohort, and so on, and so on. And all the while, the followers were adding up as well.

Keep in mind, that at higher levels (in his rules), even some of the followers are high enough to take leadership too.

I spent a great deal of time compiling the 'holy army', and presented it to him at the next game.

Hilarity ensued.

Sounds like an ACKS game I was in, where every player had followers, and the followers had followers, and the followers of the followers often had a group of soldiers to lead. A gang of 200 bandits was something you ran over on the way to the profit.

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