I have a ranger with 2 natural claw attacks and two-weapon fighting in my game, and the player is thinking about getting improved two-weapon fighting. He wants to know how (or if) the feat would interact with his natural weapons.
The rules as written are very murky on this. Would someone mind double-checking my math in the following situations?
The Character
He has a BAB +6/+1 with a 14 STR (+2). In addition to his natural attacks, he carries a pair of +2 shortswords. He already has the two-weapon fighting feat.
1. Full Attack with claws
+8/+8
2. Full Attack with one shortsword
+10/+5
3. Full Attack with both shortswords
+8/+3/+8
4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)
Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...
5. Full Attack with both shortswords and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+8/+3
6. Full Attack with claws and Imp 2WF
+8/+8/+3
(Is this right? The rules for Imp 2WF say "In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty." Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat? I'm not sure.)
7. Full Attack with shortsword and claw and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+1/-4
(If #4 is true, AND #6 is true, then this seems to be the logical conclusion.)
4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)
Nope, only the sword attacks are treated as two-weapon fighting. The natural attacks are standard secondary weapon attacks (BAB-5, 1/2 str) so it's sword +8/+3, claw +3.
Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes.... all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting"
Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat?
Nope, they are not iterative attacks. ITWF doesn't affect natural attacks. ITWF with 1 sword 1 claw is the same as with only TWF.
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4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)Nope, only the sword attacks are treated as two-weapon fighting. The natural attacks are standard secondary weapon attacks (BAB-5, 1/2 str) so it's sword +8/+3, claw +3.
Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes.... all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting"
Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat?
Nope, they are not iterative attacks. ITWF doesn't affect natural attacks. ITWF with 1 sword 1 claw is the same as with only TWF.
+1
Grick has the truth of it here mixing 2 weapon fighting and natural attacks is overly complicated and a DPR loss at his level. Tell him to pick one (my vote is Natural Attacks) and ignore the other till 12th level. Also tell him to pick up a bite attack and go Claw/Claw/Bite, it's a far superior fighting style.
His damage will go through the roof and it's a LOT easier to track the rules/dice for.
The rules as written are very murky on this. Would someone mind double-checking my math in the following situations?
My pleasure.
1. - 3.
All good here.
4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
This should be +10/+5/+5 (claw gets -5, there is no two-weapon fighting).
Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...
5. Full Attack with both shortswords and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+8/+3 Yes.6. Full Attack with claws and Imp 2WF
+8/+8/+3 No, just +10/+10 - he can't get extra attacks with natural weapons from two-weapon fighting (or improved)7. Full Attack with shortsword and claw and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+1/-4 No, still +10/+5/+5