# Natural weapons + Improved TWF

### Rules Questions

I have a ranger with 2 natural claw attacks and two-weapon fighting in my game, and the player is thinking about getting improved two-weapon fighting. He wants to know how (or if) the feat would interact with his natural weapons.

The rules as written are very murky on this. Would someone mind double-checking my math in the following situations?

The Character
He has a BAB +6/+1 with a 14 STR (+2). In addition to his natural attacks, he carries a pair of +2 shortswords. He already has the two-weapon fighting feat.

1. Full Attack with claws
+8/+8

2. Full Attack with one shortsword
+10/+5

3. Full Attack with both shortswords
+8/+3/+8

4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)

Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...

5. Full Attack with both shortswords and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+8/+3

6. Full Attack with claws and Imp 2WF
+8/+8/+3
(Is this right? The rules for Imp 2WF say "In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty." Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat? I'm not sure.)

7. Full Attack with shortsword and claw and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+1/-4
(If #4 is true, AND #6 is true, then this seems to be the logical conclusion.)

Michael Gentry wrote:

4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)

Nope, only the sword attacks are treated as two-weapon fighting. The natural attacks are standard secondary weapon attacks (BAB-5, 1/2 str) so it's sword +8/+3, claw +3.

Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes.... all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting"

Michael Gentry wrote:

Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...

Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat?

Nope, they are not iterative attacks. ITWF doesn't affect natural attacks. ITWF with 1 sword 1 claw is the same as with only TWF.

Grick wrote:
Michael Gentry wrote:

4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1
(This is where I'm less sure of myself. He gets his iterative attacks with the shortsword, -2 from two-weapon fighting. That's where the +8/+3 comes from. Then his claw attack gets -5 because he's mixing it with a regular weapon, plus another -2 from two-weapon fighting, so it ends up at +1. Is that right?)

Nope, only the sword attacks are treated as two-weapon fighting. The natural attacks are standard secondary weapon attacks (BAB-5, 1/2 str) so it's sword +8/+3, claw +3.

Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes.... all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting"

Michael Gentry wrote:

Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...

Does the claw count as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this feat?

Nope, they are not iterative attacks. ITWF doesn't affect natural attacks. ITWF with 1 sword 1 claw is the same as with only TWF.

+1

Grick has the truth of it here mixing 2 weapon fighting and natural attacks is overly complicated and a DPR loss at his level. Tell him to pick one (my vote is Natural Attacks) and ignore the other till 12th level. Also tell him to pick up a bite attack and go Claw/Claw/Bite, it's a far superior fighting style.
His damage will go through the roof and it's a LOT easier to track the rules/dice for.

Michael Gentry wrote:
The rules as written are very murky on this. Would someone mind double-checking my math in the following situations?

My pleasure.

Michael Gentry wrote:
1. - 3.

All good here.

Michael Gentry wrote:

4. Full Attack with one shortsword in one hand and one claw
+8/+3/+1

This should be +10/+5/+5 (claw gets -5, there is no two-weapon fighting).

Michael Gentry wrote:

Now, if he had improved two-weapon fighting...

5. Full Attack with both shortswords and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+8/+3 Yes.

6. Full Attack with claws and Imp 2WF
+8/+8/+3 No, just +10/+10 - he can't get extra attacks with natural weapons from two-weapon fighting (or improved)

7. Full Attack with shortsword and claw and Imp 2WF
+8/+3/+1/-4 No, still +10/+5/+5