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So I just got into pathfinder a few months ago. I have been looking at the subscriptions and been somewhat enticed by the free pdf offered with them. The problem is when I look on Amazon for pathfinder books they are usually cheap enough that I could buy the book on Amazon and the PDF from Paizo and still come out a few dollars ahead.
The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit so Paizo is selling the book to Amazon for even less. So I think Paizo would come out more than a few dollars ahead if they gave free PDFs with purchase to anyone.
Of course the subscription is a nice steady stream of income so they will still need some benefit. A discount or small perk could make the difference for subscribers. They could also continue the same model and only offer the book + PDF after a month or two. This gives subscribers exclusivity.
Subscribing to the AP line gives you 15% off mostly anything except PDFs by other companies at the Paizo store in, and also 30% off the APs themselves AFAIK. Also Amazon reportedly is selling with a loss and making profit through 3rd party sellers, or so they say (how that is legal is beyond me). Amazon also has much cheaper shipping costs due to the larger volume they ship at the same time.
Not to mention I think its safe to say that if you subscribe via Paizo vs. purchasing from Amazon, you will almost ALWAYS get your product SIGNIFICANTLY sooner (as in days to weeks sooner). AND... you get the PDF the day your book physically ships. A nice perk.
I agree that even non-subscribers should get some kind of deal for the PDFs. I don't know if they could give them away with a physical purchase, but a far better price than 30% off should be in order.
Subscribers still get some perks - if you subscribe to the Adventure Paths, you get 30% off the APs and 15% off everything else; maybe they could give the 15% (or at least some discount) for all subscribers for the lines they subscribe to (so a player who won't touch the APs but will get the companions will get them cheaper.
And subscribers get the stuff sooner than other customers, which is quite neat - many people want their stuff quite soon.
Note that if you want stuff soon, amazon is the last place to get stuff. They have huge delays when it comes getting RPG stuff.
If it's something that has been out a while, they're great - you get great prices and depending on your location and the total value of your order, they'll probably throw in free shipping as well. And since you don't get to subscribe to stuff that has been out for a while, you're back where you started: Get print copy from amazon and PDF from Paizo.
The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit so Paizo is selling the book to Amazon for even less. So I think Paizo would come out more than a few dollars ahead if they gave free PDFs with purchase to anyone.
I don't think that game store owners would like that very much. Some of them already aren't that crazy about the subscription option.
CEO
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The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit...
There is where everyone makes the same mistake. They assume that Amazon is making a profit selling our books. They don't. They lose money on every sale they make. Sounds ridiculous you say? Well, they make all their money from taking a percentage from third party sellers on the website. And now e-books, which surpassed print book sales recently.
Not exactly a business model that Paizo wishes to emulate. :)
-Lisa
The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit so Paizo is selling the book to Amazon for even less. So I think Paizo would come out more than a few dollars ahead if they gave free PDFs with purchase to anyone.I don't think that game store owners would like that very much. Some of them already aren't that crazy about the subscription option.
If they, however, figured out a way to give everyone who buys a print version a free (or discounted) PDF version (with some sort of code card or whatever), the gaming store owners would be ecstatic.
Or not, considering that those stores that complain about the great online deals are often those too lazy or incompetent to compete. If that PDF thing involves too much work for them, they won't do it - they'll just keep complaining.
Lisa: Since we've cornered you in this thread: Can you tell us anything about Paizo's efforts on the PDF frontier? Any ideas, plans or oracular visions about bringing PDFs into stores or as a package deal with print products you can buy in stores?
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The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit...There is where everyone makes the same mistake. They assume that Amazon is making a profit selling our books. They don't. They lose money on every sale they make. Sounds ridiculous you say? Well, they make all their money from taking a percentage from third party sellers on the website. And now e-books, which surpassed print book sales recently.
Not exactly a business model that Paizo wishes to emulate. :)
-Lisa
That makes sense when it is shipped from third parties. However when Amazon ships and sells it Amazon APG I don't see how they are not making a profit on the sale. I am usually not in a rush to buy game books because I like to see how the online consensus shakes out on how good is the supplement. That takes a couple months.
All I am saying is that if you want me to buy from you instead of Amazon I need value for my money. Half off the PDF or something like that. Amazon's profit and loss really does not matter in the equation. If you can get full price plus shipping and throw in a PDF (free or at a discount) then that has to be better for Paizo.
If you can get full price plus shipping and throw in a PDF (free or at a discount) then that has to be better for Paizo.
This is pretty much what Paizo offers to subscribers. If they offered that to everyone, what would be the incentive to subscribe?
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They also give subscribers early access, discounts etc (or that is what other's said). My point is if they sell to me at a full and higher price then I expect something to make up for the difference. I can buy at Amazon all the time if I want.
They could try it on just one book and see if it increases sales enough to warrant a free or discounted PDF. If it works then great, if not then never do it again.
I'll chime in here that I get the book + PDF for less than I'd spend to get the book from Amazon and the PDF from Paizo.
Case 1: hardcover from Amazon for $26.39 + PDF from Paizo for $9.99; total = $36.38.
Case 2: hardcover from Paizo for $33.99 + PDF from Paizo for free; total = $33.99.
Shipping from Amazon is typically free, but since I get shipments from Paizo all together, the shipping is much less than it would be per item. For example, in my APG shipment, it was less than $1/item. So let's be unforgiving and say it was $2.
STILL, that's $35.99 for the book + PDF from Paizo, AND I get the PDF on the day of release, even before I get the actual book, AND I get the book pretty much as soon as is humanly possible.
Not sure what the big deal is. Now, if you have no interest in the PDF, it's a totally different story, but the PDFs are vital to me.
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You're going at it backwards.
You're saying 'Paizo sells at a higher price than Amazon so there should be more!'
What's really happening is 'Amazon sells at a lower price so there should be less!'
Amazon gives you the lower rate at the cost of later fulfillment. Paizo gives you earlier fulfillment at a higher rate. And you expect them to offer more than that?
I don't see why you can't get a PDF with hardcover purchase.
I have no problem with Paizo not offering freebies to people trying to save a couple of bucks by buying from Amazon. I like getting my books and PDFs right from the source because I get it as soon as possible.
What I would like to see Paizo do is support the little guy in this economy. I don't like buying Paizo products from my Friendly Local Game Store (FLGS) because of the discount and free PDF I get from Paizo.
I want to support my FLGS. I hope everyone else wants to keep the lights on in their FLGS. If I buy from my FLGS, no free PDF. This makes me unhappy. :-( So, I tend to buy other non-Pathfinder products from my FLGS.
The FLGS helped build this hobby. The FLGS continues to help build this hobby by hosting games and serving as a meeting place. How many people have seen someone first introduced to Pathfinder at a FLGS?
I would love to see Paizo work with the FLGS and be able to offer a free PDF if you bought from your FLGS instead of a big nameless Internet store.
I'll be honest, I don't know how the logistics would be carried out. Sealed coupon codes sent to game store distributors or directly to the stores themselves.
What do you say, Lisa, you got a bunch a smart people working for you, I bet you could come up with an answer.
What I would like to see Paizo do is support the little guy in this economy. I don't like buying Paizo products from my Friendly Local Game Store (FLGS) because of the discount and free PDF I get from Paizo.
Store-owner Drogon made a really great post here, in which he says,
Ditto for Gary, owner of Black Diamond Games, who talks about some of the really smart things he does as a retailer on the Black Diamond Games blog.
And other people have talked about how their FLGS has its own "subscription" program: you sign up for all products from a line and get a 10-15% discount for it.
What I would like to see Paizo do is support the little guy in this economy. I don't like buying Paizo products from my Friendly Local Game Store (FLGS) because of the discount and free PDF I get from Paizo.Store-owner Drogon made a really great post here, in which he says,
Ditto for Gary, owner of Black Diamond Games, who talks about some of the really smart things he does as a retailer on the Black Diamond Games blog.
And other people have talked about how their FLGS has its own "subscription" program: you sign up for all products from a line and get a 10-15% discount for it.
Which is initiative on THEIR part, not Paizo's.
If you can get full price plus shipping and throw in a PDF (free or at a discount) then that has to be better for Paizo.This is pretty much what Paizo offers to subscribers. If they offered that to everyone, what would be the incentive to subscribe?
Pathfinder Advantage is one thing. Then there's early access.
And, frankly, I like the convenience. Don't have to keep ordering the stuff I want. They do a shipment each month with the stuff that's new and send it to me. And, best of all, there's no commitment. I don't have to pay anything up front, I can cancel them any time I want.
That would be enough for me, really.
And other companies give away free PDFs with their print products. Or at least give a nice discount.
I'd think it would be good if Paizo gave away PDFs (or at least give huge discounts for them) with every physical purchase. And that should include books sold everywhere (though they'd have to come up with a way to do that)
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CEO
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Lisa: Since we've cornered you in this thread: Can you tell us anything about Paizo's efforts on the PDF frontier? Any ideas, plans or oracular visions about bringing PDFs into stores or as a package deal with print products you can buy in stores?
Nothing has changed. We still have all the same issues that we've had in the past. Trust me, if that EVER changes, you guys will be the first to know!
-Lisa
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Expecting Paizo to be exactly like a super-retailer like Amazon is crazy. I could choose to save a couple bucks and order from Amazon ( I am a prime member and get free 2 day shipping all year), but I choose to support a company that puts out products I truly enjoy. I will not put unrealistic expectations on them. They do a great job of making sure they treat their customers well and put out great products.
Which is initiative on THEIR part, not Paizo's.
True.
So, other than offering some sort of in-store or in-book coupon for the PDF (which, as we've explained many times, isn't feasible for many reasons), what can Paizo do to support local game stores? Other than offering inexpensive PFS scenarios, participating in Free RPG Day, and so on. I'm not being flippant—I've never run or worked in a game store, so I don't know what store-owners would like Paizo to do.
I think paizo supports local game stores VERY well. How? By producing a popular product, which people want, and is in demand. Thus bringing people in to their stores, and driving sales.
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Which is initiative on THEIR part, not Paizo's.True.
So, other than offering some sort of in-store or in-book coupon for the PDF (which, as we've explained many times, isn't feasible for many reasons), what can Paizo do to support local game stores? Other than offering inexpensive PFS scenarios, participating in Free RPG Day, and so on. I'm not being flippant—I've never run or worked in a game store, so I don't know what store-owners would like Paizo to do.
Well, there's the flash drive concept for selling PDFs. You don't even have to put them on the flash drive when shipping them.
Custom flash drive with PF logo on it and a code inside the box redeemable for certain core PF books via the PF website. Retailer can sell it alongside his hardcopies of books and players still get their PDFs and a flash drive to put them on to carry from place to place.
It would probably be a nice, fairly inexpensive starter set for those that are too advanced for the Beginner Box, but aren't necessarily ready to invest the $100 bucks to get hard copies of the books they'll need. Also, it helps those that aren't either willing or able to pay online at Paizo's site for whatever reason (cash, parent's credit card, etc).
If they decide they want to get the physical books, they can revisit their FLGS and buy them.
That makes sense when it is shipped from third parties. However when Amazon ships and sells it Amazon APG I don't see how they are not making a profit on the sale. I am usually not in a rush to buy game books because I like to see how the online consensus shakes out on how good is the supplement. That takes a couple months.
Amazon buys the book from Paizo at $x. They sell it to you for $x-y where y is a positive number. That's a loss. Amazon regularly does this for it's new book distribution. The do this to drive increased traffic and all-in-one shoppers to their site. They then make their money as a percentage from the other portions of their business. The point is that new book sales are lost-leaders for them, like that $1 USB memory stick at a Best Buy. They want to drag you into the store, so losing a couple bucks on a memory stick is worthwhile when they can sell you some Monster Cable speaker wire for 1000% mark-up.
All I am saying is that if you want me to buy from you instead of Amazon I need value for my money. Half off the PDF or something like that. Amazon's profit and loss really does not matter in the equation. If you can get full price plus shipping and throw in a PDF (free or at a discount) then that has to be better for Paizo.
They do, as others have pointed out. Paizo can't match Amazon's price because they'd literally be losing money on each sale. They instead offer you things Amazon can't. If that's not good enough for you and you insist on buying at the lowest possible price, fine... Amazon it is. There's no shame in that and Paizo is still making a profit... at Amazon's cost. Just don't expect price equality without Amazon stopping selling for a loss.
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Ah but my point is that I do not expect price equality. I expect value equality. I am not even asking for free shipping. I am just proposing that they give regular non-subscriber customers some reason to buy from Paizo rather than Amazon. Amazon does not sell the PDF (as far as I know) and offering a discount on the PDF when buying the hard copy book is something I feel could drive business to the Paizo.
Now, Lisa undoubtably knows Paizo's business and costs better than I do but I have found that business owners often lock themselves into a certain way of doing business; even when a different way could be more profitable. It would not hurt them to try on one product. Especially a mature product whose sales could use a boost.
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Sorry if I seem like an angry grognard, but seriously people, you want Paizo to cut into their profit so you can save $10? I know I make a good deal more money than the average Joe, but $10?
What you fail to take into account is how much it costs to hire quality people to write all those books, adventures and more, Paizo cranks out at low cost. I want Lisa, Jacobs, et.al. to actually be able to do this as a full time job and turn out books at the highest level of quality, instead of them having to lower the quality of the products.
So, I don't mind paying $10 for the PDF product plus the cost in the shop for the hard copy (which is much more expensive where I live than in the US, for instance), if that keeps Paizo at the top of their game.
+1
Also, I'm lazy and having everything roll around once a month as part of a subscription makes things easier.
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Sorry if I seem like an angry grognard, but seriously people, you want Paizo to cut into their profit so you can save $10? I know I make a good deal more money than the average Joe, but $10?
What you fail to take into account is how much it costs to hire quality people to write all those books, adventures and more, Paizo cranks out at low cost. I want Lisa, Jacobs, et.al. to actually be able to do this as a full time job and turn out books at the highest level of quality, instead of them having to lower the quality of the products.
So, I don't mind paying $10 for the PDF product plus the cost in the shop for the hard copy (which is much more expensive where I live than in the US, for instance), if that keeps Paizo at the top of their game.
I do not want them to cut into their profit. Amazon buys the book at a wholesale price from Paizo. Let us assume they always sell the book at a loss on that wholesale price. The point is that each purchase by Amazon and related sellers is at a lower price than retail. Paizo can sell me the book at full retail price if they give me additional value.
Now a PDF has lower production costs than a book, that is why Paizo throws it in for free to subscribers. I am just saying that if they provide a discount on the PDF when buying the book then I would be more likely to buy from them than Amazon.
So the questions becomes how much of a discount on the PDF is good for Paizo in that it drives enough sales directly to Paizo at full retail price to make up for the discount?
To restate: I am saying they could make MORE money by offering a discount on the PDF with purchase of a book. They just have to find what discount rate makes more money possible. They have a lot of products out and testing this concept on one or more of them is not an unreasonable concept.
Which is initiative on THEIR part, not Paizo's.True.
So, other than offering some sort of in-store or in-book coupon for the PDF (which, as we've explained many times, isn't feasible for many reasons), what can Paizo do to support local game stores? Other than offering inexpensive PFS scenarios, participating in Free RPG Day, and so on. I'm not being flippant—I've never run or worked in a game store, so I don't know what store-owners would like Paizo to do.
Well, there's the flash drive concept for selling PDFs. You don't even have to put them on the flash drive when shipping them.
Custom flash drive with PF logo on it and a code inside the box redeemable for certain core PF books via the PF website. Retailer can sell it alongside his hardcopies of books and players still get their PDFs and a flash drive to put them on to carry from place to place.
It would probably be a nice, fairly inexpensive starter set for those that are too advanced for the Beginner Box, but aren't necessarily ready to invest the $100 bucks to get hard copies of the books they'll need. Also, it helps those that aren't either willing or able to pay online at Paizo's site for whatever reason (cash, parent's credit card, etc).
If they decide they want to get the physical books, they can revisit their FLGS and buy them.
I'd say distribute coupons for books to FLGS distributors to give out with books that would cover the cost of the PDF of said book.
I know other publishers provide free PDFs for purchased books..
Amazon buys the book from Paizo at $x. They sell it to you for $x-y where y is a positive number. That's a loss. Amazon regularly does this for it's new book distribution. The do this to drive increased traffic and all-in-one shoppers to their site. They then make their money as a percentage from the other portions of their business. The point is that new book sales are lost-leaders for them, like that $1 USB memory stick at a Best Buy. They want to drag you into the store, so losing a couple bucks on a memory stick is worthwhile when they can sell you some Monster Cable speaker wire for 1000% mark-up.
Amazon buys it's books from Diamond, as Vic has mentioned.
Is Diamond selling books to Amazon for more than the 47%-50% off cover price that they sell to the FLGS?
Because I doubt that. I doubt that very much.
Assuming Amazon buys a CRB from Diamond for $25.00 (50% off $49.99 cover), then sells it for $31.49 - that's a $6.49 markUP.
They MIGHT be taking a loss on free shipping (be it Super Saver or Prime), but, in the case of Paizo books that Amazon sells, all of them are marked up more than the cost an FLGS pays, so they're not selling them for less than they paid, at least, not until shipping is figured in.
Paizo direct sales not meeting Amazon's price has far less to do with selling for less than cost, and far more to do them not wanting to undercut the direct sales channels.
This is pretty standard with just about any product that you can buy locally and direct from the manufacturer at the same time - the manufacturer typically sells for MSRP so they don't anger the retailer.
Sorry if I seem like an angry grognard, but seriously people, you want Paizo to cut into their profit so you can save $10? I know I make a good deal more money than the average Joe, but $10?
Truth be told, that for some that $10 represents a good chunk of their disposable income they can afford to spend on a hobby. I know I've been there.
What you fail to take into account is how much it costs to hire quality people to write all those books, adventures and more, Paizo cranks out at low cost. I want Lisa, Jacobs, et.al. to actually be able to do this as a full time job and turn out books at the highest level of quality, instead of them having to lower the quality of the products.
So, I don't mind paying $10 for the PDF product plus the cost in the shop for the hard copy (which is much more expensive where I live than in the US, for instance), if that keeps Paizo at the top of their game.
I have no problem with what Paizo charges, as you say you get what you pay for. I also like subscribing because then Paizo knows with a little degree of predictability their market and income on a new product.
My concern is that Paizo offers such a good deal to subscribers that they cut into the sales at the local FLGS. I'm fortunate enough that I can spend money on my hobby, but I also don't make so much as to not care about getting a good deal.
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I do not want them to cut into their profit. Amazon buys the book at a wholesale price from Paizo. Let us assume they always sell the book at a loss on that wholesale price. The point is that each purchase by Amazon and related sellers is at a lower price than retail. Paizo can sell me the book at full retail price if they give me additional value.
Then they would be undercutting the FLGS, and loose 1000s of outlets for setting their products (offering PDFs has already cost them some stores support.
Now a PDF has lower production costs than a book, that is why Paizo throws it in for free to subscribers. I am just saying that if they provide a discount on the PDF when buying the book then I would be more likely to buy from them than Amazon.
Actually, Paizo PDFs cost almost the same as the book does: Writing, Art, Cartography, Editing, Continuity checking, and Layout all still need to be done, and these cost more than printing (this is according to employee posts in the past)
To restate: I am saying they could make MORE money by offering a discount on the PDF with purchase of a book. They just have to find what discount rate makes more money possible. They have a lot of products out and testing this concept on one or more of them is not an unreasonable concept.
Again, this undercuts the FLGS, is making $10 more on 20% of the sold books better when it costs them 50% of purchases (I'm guessing about numbers, but if 1000 businesses stopped buying the products, it would hurt a lot more than 500 additional purchases through paizo.com instead) Its a delicate balance.
Amazon buys it's books from Diamond, as Vic has mentioned.Is Diamond selling books to Amazon for more than the 47%-50% off cover price that they sell to the FLGS?
Diamond routinly sells FLGS a 49.99 item for 25 to 30 dollars each (This was 2 years ago,and more for action figures than books, so my numbers may be a bit out of date). Amazon then sells it for $31.95.
I'd say distribute coupons for books to FLGS distributors to give out with books that would cover the cost of the PDF of said book.
and when coupons get swiped? or FLGS owners forget to give them out, or they get lost in the piles of stuff the FLGS get on a weekly basis?
Well, there's the flash drive concept for selling PDFs. You don't even have to put them on the flash drive when shipping them.
same issues as above with the coupons. and since all of the paizo PDFs out there have to be linked to a paizo.com account for the security measures (watermarks, ect) to work correctly, the way they have successfully worked in the past means that they CAN'T load them on the flash drives beforehand
and when coupons get swiped? or FLGS owners forget to give them out, or they get lost in the piles of stuff the FLGS get on a weekly basis?
I fail to see how that is a counterargument. So Paizo can't make an effort because some store owners might be incompetent or lazy and some purchasers ignorant?
Why wouldn't the coupons be bundled with book deliveries? Send them a standee to put out to notify customers and remind sellers that purchasing a hardcover book in store warrants a coupon for a free PDF of said book?|
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The costs on the PDF are undoubtably lower. All that crap has to be done for the actual book. Put it in a PDF, quality check it and call it a day.
They don't have to implement this idea across the board. Use it on low selling items to boost sales. Use it on one item at a time.
As far as local game stores I have not gone to one in years and years. The owners are usually crusty SOBs who act like they are doing me a favor. Most of the time they do not have a good selection, usually only the latest stuff. The rise of Internet sales has not improved their attitude. I love buying game stuff from Amazon. I can read reviews (and often the distribution of reviews tells me more) and get a low price and with Prime I get free two day shipping. I can buy even the old stuff. Heck it even saves me gas.
I am sure that more than 500 people fall into the same category and I think Paizo could pick up sales by offering some bonus to people who buy only 3 or 4 game related things a year.
So I just got into pathfinder a few months ago. I have been looking at the subscriptions and been somewhat enticed by the free pdf offered with them. The problem is when I look on Amazon for pathfinder books they are usually cheap enough that I could buy the book on Amazon and the PDF from Paizo and still come out a few dollars ahead.
The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit so Paizo is selling the book to Amazon for even less. So I think Paizo would come out more than a few dollars ahead if they gave free PDFs with purchase to anyone.
Of course the subscription is a nice steady stream of income so they will still need some benefit. A discount or small perk could make the difference for subscribers. They could also continue the same model and only offer the book + PDF after a month or two. This gives subscribers exclusivity.
Yeah, I mean I looked over my options for about a month, then decided to go with Paizo Subscription over Amazon, because when you add in the 15% discount on all products, and the 30% off on the adventures, PLUS the free PDFs, Paizo is the best deal. Now, if you totally have 0 interest in the PDFs (Which when a new printing is done, you can download the new PDF for free, all PDFs you purchase are saved on your account forever free to download), then Amazon might be a slightly better deal.
As for FLGS, I had a great one for years, even went so far as to forgo getting a book I wanted because they couldn't obtain it when it first came out, finally they were able to. Plus, they ran two other stores out of business with their superior customer service, making them the only gaming store in town. Others tried to make it, but they just couldn't pull us away from them cause they were such great "friends" to their customers. But, with the rise of 3.5-4.0 making it so other games pretty much are a "special order" only, then the owners got divorced, one sold his half of the company to her. She got remarried and spent less time actually working at the store, then she finally sold the whole store... and alot of the "friendly" left when she did. They both always knew every customer's name, and said "Hi, Name!" when you walked in... when they sold the store, the new owner(s) just don't do that.
As for PDF costs, yeah they are cheaper to make, however they still have to pay the writers, plus the programmers that know how to use the PDF creator software , and so while it's cheaper than a book cause there is no paper or printer to pay, it still has to cost money to pay those that DID work on it.
Diamond routinly sells FLGS a 49.99 item for 25 to 30 dollars each (This was 2 years ago,and more for action figures than books, so my numbers may be a bit out of date). Amazon then sells it for $31.95.
Alliance/Diamond and the other distributors had a similar discount when I inquired about setting up a new account for a store I was looking at purchasing.
I'd imagine that Amazon gets a BETTER deal than the average FLGS or bookstore, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume the same, which is, on average, 50% of cover (new accounts pay around 53% of cover for RPG books, generally - some lines are different, and non-book products are different).
So, Amazon (and your local FLGS) get the CRB for about $25, and Amazon marks it up to $31.49.
I'm going to have to see some kind of proof that Amazon pays more than $31.49 per copy of the CRB to buy the "everything they sell direct is sold at a loss" statement.
(Please note - as I mentioned earlier, when accounting for the free Super Saver shipping, or even Prime, this may be the loss that is being discussed, but it's not on the product itself.)
I fail to see how that is a counterargument. So Paizo can't make an effort because some store owners might be incompetent or lazy and some purchasers ignorant?
Why wouldn't the coupons be bundled with book deliveries? Send them a standee to put out to notify customers and remind sellers that purchasing a hardcover book in store warrants a coupon for a free PDF of said book?
I understand that you likely don't agree with the reason, but Vic has stated in the past that Paizo's official issue with this particular method is that there's no way of guaranteeing that these coupons actually make their way to the purchaser of the book - that the coupons could get lost, stolen, sold separately, etc.
It's not that they can't make an effort, it's that they're unwilling to utilize this method as they don't find it at all satisfactory.
I fail to see how that is a counterargument. So Paizo can't make an effort because some store owners might be incompetent or lazy and some purchasers ignorant?
Why wouldn't the coupons be bundled with book deliveries? Send them a standee to put out to notify customers and remind sellers that purchasing a hardcover book in store warrants a coupon for a free PDF of said book?I understand that you likely don't agree with the reason, but Vic has stated in the past that Paizo's official issue with this particular method is that there's no way of guaranteeing that these coupons actually make their way to the purchaser of the book - that the coupons could get lost, stolen, sold separately, etc.
It's not that they can't make an effort, it's that they're unwilling to utilize this method as they don't find it at all satisfactory.
As I know there are some publishers who offer free PDFs with purchase of hardcovers, perhaps a conversation can be held to figure out what they do?
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I fail to see how that is a counterargument. So Paizo can't make an effort because some store owners might be incompetent or lazy and some purchasers ignorant?
Why wouldn't the coupons be bundled with book deliveries? Send them a standee to put out to notify customers and remind sellers that purchasing a hardcover book in store warrants a coupon for a free PDF of said book?I understand that you likely don't agree with the reason, but Vic has stated in the past that Paizo's official issue with this particular method is that there's no way of guaranteeing that these coupons actually make their way to the purchaser of the book - that the coupons could get lost, stolen, sold separately, etc.
It's not that they can't make an effort, it's that they're unwilling to utilize this method as they don't find it at all satisfactory.
Plus the fact that storing RPG books takes more warehouse space than regular books, plus the manpower to unpack and stack thousands of RPG books, then pack them in those amazon boxes, plus electricity for the warehouse, plus gas for the fork lift when they get the pallet in from Diamond, plus postage since the hardcover is over the free shipping limit...
I'd say this adds up to close to the $10 or so profit margin you're giving them (especially since shipping a hardcover is normally $4, even if their USPS discount is 50%, that's 20% of their margin gone right there)
Lisa: Since we've cornered you in this thread: Can you tell us anything about Paizo's efforts on the PDF frontier? Any ideas, plans or oracular visions about bringing PDFs into stores or as a package deal with print products you can buy in stores?Nothing has changed. We still have all the same issues that we've had in the past. Trust me, if that EVER changes, you guys will be the first to know!
-Lisa
Oh, so you found my bugs?
Then they would be undercutting the FLGS, and loose 1000s of outlets for setting their products (offering PDFs has already cost them some stores support.
I think that works the other way around. (F)LGSs are on their way out.
Paizo can do all their business with their own site, and amazon, and other big venues and probably do fine enough - especially since new players probably find out about the game over the internet, and if they can't get it in some game store, they'll get it on amazon and save some money. The internet also does the job of informing people about the game and helping them make buying decisions.
The stores, on the other hand, need to sell product, or they will be shut down. Things aren't exactly rosy for them. So throwing a tantrum and not selling one of the best-selling games in the industry is not a good move.
and when coupons get swiped? or FLGS owners forget to give them out, or they get lost in the piles of stuff the FLGS get on a weekly basis?
Lisa said (on this very thread) that they still don't have a good way to sell PDFs anywhere than on their own servers.
It's a crying shame, sure, but it's the way it is.
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The Amazon price reflects their cost plus profit...There is where everyone makes the same mistake. They assume that Amazon is making a profit selling our books. They don't. They lose money on every sale they make. Sounds ridiculous you say? Well, they make all their money from taking a percentage from third party sellers on the website. And now e-books, which surpassed print book sales recently.
Not exactly a business model that Paizo wishes to emulate. :)
-Lisa
This is the Gospel truth. Amazon looses money on many of much of their inventory because their traffic volume attracts buyers to their market place platform.
Lisa said (on this very thread) that they still don't have a good way to sell PDFs anywhere than on their own servers.It's a crying shame, sure, but it's the way it is.
That is really unrelated to providing credit for the free purchase of a PDF from Paizo's site contingent on buying a hardcover book of the same.
I think that works the other way around. (F)LGSs are on their way out.
Paizo can do all their business with their own site, and amazon, and other big venues and probably do fine enough - especially since new players probably find out about the game over the internet, and if they can't get it in some game store, they'll get it on amazon and save some money. The internet also does the job of informing people about the game and helping them make buying decisions.
The stores, on the other hand, need to sell product, or they will be shut down. Things aren't exactly rosy for them. So throwing a tantrum and not selling one of the best-selling games in the industry is not a good move.
I agree with your last point, but I think the FLGS still plays an important role in introducing new players to the hobby, far more than the internet does.
That is really unrelated to providing credit for the free purchase of a PDF from Paizo's site contingent on buying a hardcover book of the same.
How's that?
Paizo doesn't find any method of distributing coupons or providing PDFs acceptable, short of actual direct subscriptions.
Providing credit for the free purchase of the PDF is included in that.
That is really unrelated to providing credit for the free purchase of a PDF from Paizo's site contingent on buying a hardcover book of the same.How's that?
Paizo doesn't find any method of distributing coupons or providing PDFs acceptable, short of actual direct subscriptions.
Providing credit for the free purchase of the PDF is included in that.
Providing credit to buy PDFs from Paizo is not "selling PDFs somewhere else."
I agree with your last point, but I think the FLGS still plays an important role in introducing new players to the hobby, far more than the internet does.I think that works the other way around. (F)LGSs are on their way out.
Paizo can do all their business with their own site, and amazon, and other big venues and probably do fine enough - especially since new players probably find out about the game over the internet, and if they can't get it in some game store, they'll get it on amazon and save some money. The internet also does the job of informing people about the game and helping them make buying decisions.
The stores, on the other hand, need to sell product, or they will be shut down. Things aren't exactly rosy for them. So throwing a tantrum and not selling one of the best-selling games in the industry is not a good move.
I imagine you would be exceedingly wrong. Few, if ANY, people go to local gaming stores unless they MEAN to be going there and if they MEAN to be going there, then they are already in the hobby in general. They may not be playing Pathfinder, but the chance they are unfamiliar with it if they are familiar with their local gaming store is between 0 and 0. Now, MAJOR RETAILERS are probably more important in introducing new players to the hobby than the internet. Far more new blood is going to come across a D&D or Pathfinder book in a Barnes & Noble or Books a Million or Borders than are going to go into a gaming store.
Comic shops doubling as gaming stores are probably between the internet and gaming exclusive stores.