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I stand corrected, that's 2 years and 8 months.
Still a bit far from 4.
And yeah, I'm being anal, but I deal with people exaggerating things to support their (vaild or invalid) claims daily, and I've developed an auto-immune reaction.
Yup, counted 2008 twice for some reason... But still it is a long time
Never, ever post approximated dates next to a lawyer with too much spare time on Sunday evening.
You are an ATTORNEY!!!! THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!!!!!
I'm just saying:
I have a list of high-priority items we need to add to the FAQ.
Jason has seen this list.
We decided to start blogging about them on the Tuesday designer blog.
And got several of them done.
Then Ultimate Magic preview blogs took over the Tuesday design blog the past few weeks.
And we've been working extra hard to get the Beginner Box done (I literally haven't taken a vacation day since New Year's Day, which is the week we started working full-time on the Beginner Box).
So suggesting that I, or anyone else on staff, consider the FAQ system to be "of no priority at all" is false, and assumes that I don't have anything else to do except address the FAQ. Thus, the statement mischaracterizes what I do every damn day. What I do every day is work hard to make good products--and, when there's time, to get significant issues added to the FAQ with the consensus of the design team.
Thank you for all the hard work. If there is a way that you or someone else can include regular FAQ updates as a priority then many of us would salute you!!! As that will add to the quality of our overall gaming experience with Pathfinder.
So suggesting that I, or anyone else on staff, consider the FAQ system to be "of no priority at all" is false, and assumes that I don't have anything else to do except address the FAQ. Thus, the statement mischaracterizes what I do every damn day. What I do every day is work hard to make good products--and, when there's time, to get significant issues added to the FAQ with the consensus of the design team.
Fair enough. I retract no priority at all. I replace it with 'Lowest priority of all'. Do you agree with that statement? Your own post backs it up. Anything that comes along bumps it off the table. In other words, the FAQ is worked on at any point when someone doesn't have something else to do. Since any company (rightly) tries to keep everyone employed 100% doing things that bring in money (understandable), this means that the FAQ system languishes.
FAQ :
CRB : Last updated: August 13, 2010
B1 : Last updated: August 13, 2010
GMG : Last updated: August 13, 2010
APG : Last updated: August 13, 2010
B2 : Never Updated
UM : Never Updated (obviously, just came out)
I understand you are busy Sean, but it's been 9 months since anyone updated the FAQ's, and there's lots of stuff you personally have posted in threads in the intervening 9 months that hasn't been addressed in the FAQ or errata (monks use of brass knuckles, item crafting, etc).
Can you at least see why we would assume the FAQ system is dead? Since it's been 9 months since anyone bothered with it? And yes, you guys did what, 2 blog posts in those 9 months, and didn't add those to the FAQs?
EDIT : Fixed the last sentence in the first paragraph.
i humbly suggest(no sarcasm at all this time) that folks step back for a bit and take a few deep breaths to relax.
i humbly suggest(no sarcasm at all this time) that folks step back for a bit and take a few deep breaths to relax.
Yeah, probably a good idea.
That's a website issue, not Sean K Reynolds being lazy issue.In my job, reading the header date and not looking at what follows can lead to horrible mistakes that cost money and lives. :)
It's a Paizo issue, in that it makes them look bad. It makes it look as if either it's not being updated at all (which was how I took it, since I go check it about once a month, see the same date, curse, and go back to the forums to do search fu on the forums to see if I can find a dev response on some bit of inconsistency in the rules).
And as to your job, that's fine. If I make a mistake in my job, companies can lose millions of dollars. That makes it my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen. That makes it Paizo's responsibility to make sure that their products are up to snuff, or they lose money. It's not my responsibility to do so. If the website isn't working right, then you get the website people to fix it, you don't require your customers to fix it for you. That's pretty much business 101.
None of that is snark, it's serious. In my job, if I put something on a website, and it doesn't work or is perceived wrong by the customers, if I were to go on the website and tell the customers they were idiots for not understanding it, I'd be fired. If I just posted on it and said they were unappreciative and didn't understand the work I do everyday, I'd get fired. What I'd have to do is contact the website admin people, tell them the problem, and they'd fix it. Or if it was my screw up, I'd fix it.
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That's a website issue, not Sean K Reynolds being lazy issue.In my job, reading the header date and not looking at what follows can lead to horrible mistakes that cost money and lives. :)
It's a Paizo issue, in that it makes them look bad. It makes it look as if either it's not being updated at all (which was how I took it, since I go check it about once a month, see the same date, curse, and go back to the forums to do search fu on the forums to see if I can find a dev response on some bit of inconsistency in the rules).
And as to your job, that's fine. If I make a mistake in my job, companies can lose millions of dollars. That makes it my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen. That makes it Paizo's responsibility to make sure that their products are up to snuff, or they lose money. It's not my responsibility to do so. If the website isn't working right, then you get the website people to fix it, you don't require your customers to fix it for you. That's pretty much business 101.
None of that is snark, it's serious. In my job, if I put something on a website, and it doesn't work or is perceived wrong by the customers, if I were to go on the website and tell the customers they were idiots for not understanding it, I'd be fired. If I just posted on it and said they were unappreciative and didn't understand the work I do everyday, I'd get fired. What I'd have to do is contact the website admin people, tell them the problem, and they'd fix it. Or if it was my screw up, I'd fix it.
I've gone and made a thread about this issue in the Website Feedback forum. Can we now hug Sean so that he won't cry at night?
Fair enough. I retract no priority at all. I replace it with 'Lowest priority of all'. Do you agree with that statement? Your own post backs it up. Anything that comes along bumps it off the table.
"Anything that comes along" actually being "anything of a higher priority that comes along." I apologize, but getting what may be the second-most important RPG product in the company's history finished in time for xmas this year is a higher priority than updating the FAQ. For me, at least--the guy who is responsible for finishing said product.
Fair enough. I retract no priority at all. I replace it with 'Lowest priority of all'. Do you agree with that statement? Your own post backs it up. Anything that comes along bumps it off the table."Anything that comes along" actually being "anything of a higher priority that comes along." I apologize, but getting what may be the second-most important RPG product in the company's history finished in time for xmas this year is a higher priority than updating the FAQ. For me, at least, the guy who is responsible for finishing said product.
Can someone help you update the faq?
I've gone and made a thread about this issue in the Website Feedback forum. Can we now hug Sean so that he won't cry at night?
Nope, sorry. I make it a personal rule to never hug anyone I know only from posts on the internet. Usually it turns out to be an overweight guy with bad personal hygiene*.
:)
*Blatant reference to the movie Surrogates.
Can someone help you update the faq?
FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.
Fair enough. I retract no priority at all. I replace it with 'Lowest priority of all'. Do you agree with that statement? Your own post backs it up. Anything that comes along bumps it off the table."Anything that comes along" actually being "anything of a higher priority that comes along." I apologize, but getting what may be the second-most important RPG product in the company's history finished in time for xmas this year is a higher priority than updating the FAQ. For me, at least--the guy who is responsible for finishing said product.
As I said, Sean, I can understand it having a low priority. But it seems like anytime it's asked about, there's always something higher priority. Getting out the APG, or the B2, or UM, or UC, or B3... There will always be a rush to get something to market. And the more things you put on the market, the more things need clarification.
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I've gone and made a thread about this issue in the Website Feedback forum. Can we now hug Sean so that he won't cry at night?Nope, sorry. I make it a personal rule to never hug anyone I know only from posts on the internet. Usually it turns out to be an overweight guy with bad personal hygiene*.
:)
*Blatant reference to the movie Surrogates.
Sean is bald, skinny and vegetarian. Should be fine.
Oh wait, his G-F dresses up as Amiri and kicks butt. Might not be fine...
Removed some posts.
This thread is heading downward very quickly. I suggest everybody involved take a step away from the forums for a bit.
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The only solution to speed up the FAQ is to buy more Paizo books, so that they will have the money to hire another person for this job. Capitalism ho!
And yes, that's one of the reasons I'm sometimes such an unapologetic fanboy. The faster Paizo grows, the faster they will fix some things like the dreaded "GenCon Schedule" or FAQs.
Can someone help you update the faq?FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.
Which is why I assume there's never been any responses on the +5 DC questions about caster level for weapon/armor enhancements. The problem I see, is that until this sort of thing is given an actual priority other than 'When you can', things will only get worse, as each new book increases the number rules interactions by an entire factor.
Please don't take this as someone who's demanding everyone drop everything to do this as a priority over everything else. It's just a customer expressing a HUGE amount of frustration over arguments about things that have been FAQ'd since the CRB was published, and still no response on them. Even though I can make any rule in my own home games, it causes strife and feelings that the GM is being arbitrary if there's no clarity on a CRB entry that's in open dispute.
The only solution to speed up the FAQ is to buy more Paizo books, so that they will have the money to hire another person for this job. Capitalism ho!
And yes, that's one of the reasons I'm sometimes such an unapologetic fanboy. The faster Paizo grows, the faster they will fix some things like the dreaded "GenCon Schedule" or FAQs.
Actually, that's not true. The more books they publish, the more rules interactions there are, and the more things become a giant swampy mess. Each rule in each new book can interact with each rule of each previous book. It's a multiplier issue, if you publish one rules book, you have one set of interactions. If you publish a second, you have each feat, spell, class ability, etc in the second one possibly interacting with every crb rule. Then the third interacts with every CRB and every APG. And adnauseum. This is part of the problem WoTC had at the end of 3.5. They were putting out as many books as possible, and no one was worrying about FAQs, or interactions between Bo9S, Incarnum Magic, Magic Item Compendium, Stormwrack, and Complete Adventurer. And each book multiplied the number of rules intersections as a multiplier against every book that had come out before it.
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Actually, that's not true. The more books they publish, the more rules interactions there are, and the more things become a giant swampy mess. Each rule in each new book can interact with each rule of each previous book. It's a multiplier issue, if you publish one rules book, you have one set of interactions. If you publish a second, you have each feat, spell, class ability, etc in the second one possibly interacting with every crb rule. Then the third interacts with every CRB and every APG. And adnauseum. This is part of the problem WoTC had at the end of 3.5. They were putting out as many books as possible, and no one was worrying about FAQs, or interactions between Bo9S, Incarnum Magic, Magic Item Compendium, Stormwrack, and Complete Adventurer. And each book multiplied the number of rules intersections as a multiplier against every book that had come out before it.The only solution to speed up the FAQ is to buy more Paizo books, so that they will have the money to hire another person for this job. Capitalism ho!
And yes, that's one of the reasons I'm sometimes such an unapologetic fanboy. The faster Paizo grows, the faster they will fix some things like the dreaded "GenCon Schedule" or FAQs.
You know, I still am under the impression that Paizo makes most of their money on APs and Golarion books. So the more of that goes to the public, the more resources for the rule books will be available.
I also do think that it's all suffering from GenCon deadlines and the fact that in this (not that profitable) industry you have to swim (read: publish books) to survive.
And of course, Paizo has some 5 to 10 times less staff than WotC.
The only solution to speed up the FAQ is to buy more Paizo books, so that they will have the money to hire another person for this job. Capitalism ho!
And yes, that's one of the reasons I'm sometimes such an unapologetic fanboy. The faster Paizo grows, the faster they will fix some things like the dreaded "GenCon Schedule" or FAQs.
Sounds like a solid theory, but one of the tenants of economy is the customer's approval of a business by using their 'dollar votes'. Meaning the higher approval a customer has of a product, the more of it they will buy. This is constrasted with the price associated with producing higher quality. Paizo isn't out of business yet. So we must assume that their particular pricing/resource allocation is at the very least profitable! What it sounds like, though, is that Paizo (and the good folk constituating) wish to have a higher quality product at the same price, but don't have the resources or perhaps the organizational structure to make that happen.
Well, guys and girls, I love your product line; and I'll say it's definitely best in class. I do, however, get frustrated at the implementation of the FAQ; and it definitely has an effect on my spending habits.
Creative Director
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Just thought I'd say one thing about the Core Rulebook and brand-new-to-roleplaying folks—we know that the Core Rulebook isn't very user friendly to new gamers. And that's the #1 reason we've been spending a significant portion of our resources this year to build the Beginner Box, which will be out later this year. THAT product will be the one that new gamers should check out if they're interested in getting into Pathfinder.
We'll have more information about the Beginner Box in a few weeks at PaizoCon.
Just thought I'd say one thing about the Core Rulebook and brand-new-to-roleplaying folks—we know that the Core Rulebook isn't very user friendly to new gamers. And that's the #1 reason we've been spending a significant portion of our resources this year to build the Beginner Box, which will be out later this year. THAT product will be the one that new gamers should check out if they're interested in getting into Pathfinder.
We'll have more information about the Beginner Box in a few weeks at PaizoCon.
Excellent. I have several gamers who are new to 3.5/PF. They're coming from 1st/2nd, or never played D&D at all. I'll suggest they look at the Beginner Box (which I will probably pick up as well, just so my collection is complete). :)
Any chance that the beginner box clarifies some of the really confusing stuff, like magic item creation, etc? I'm convinced most of the issues with it are copy/paste from 3.5 not meshing well with PF changes to the system.
Just thought I'd say one thing about the Core Rulebook and brand-new-to-roleplaying folks—we know that the Core Rulebook isn't very user friendly to new gamers. And that's the #1 reason we've been spending a significant portion of our resources this year to build the Beginner Box, which will be out later this year. THAT product will be the one that new gamers should check out if they're interested in getting into Pathfinder.
We'll have more information about the Beginner Box in a few weeks at PaizoCon.
I'm planning to buy three 'Beginner Boxes' and give them as presents for xmas.
Two to nephews, and one to a friend (which I will secretly read. wha ha haa.)
Just so mdt doesn't feel lonely... you are not alone in this. Many, MANY of us (I speak for many of the folks at d20pfsrd.com) hold this as our pretty much ONLY issue with Paizo. This FAQ mess is a continual farce and its one excuse after another that we've been hearing for YEARS now. Well wait, its not really one excuse after another, its always the same one. "We don't have the time because X is taking all of our attention right now. But we promise, right after X is out the door we're REALLY going to focus on this." and then X comes out, followed by all sorts of ooohing and ahhhing and "look how pretty it is" and people forget about the fact that there basically is no real attention paid to the FAQ. I've brought this up so many times I've already concluded there's almost no point in bringing it up again. However, when others do, I'll make a point of adding in a "+1" or a "ditto" simply to let you know that others do not think you are being unreasonable. It's just that its almost pointless to keep beating this dead horse. If it weren't for Paizo's other pluses I doubt highly that very many people who still be buying their products.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The only solution to speed up the FAQ is to buy more Paizo books, so that they will have the money to hire another person for this job. Capitalism ho!
And yes, that's one of the reasons I'm sometimes such an unapologetic fanboy. The faster Paizo grows, the faster they will fix some things like the dreaded "GenCon Schedule" or FAQs.
Actually, that's no joke. Hiring someone takes a LONG time if you take the time to make sure you get the right person. I think Paizo has done pretty good at the rate they've hired people based on their overall size. I know a my job there's an open position in my department, and my boss won't have time for at least 2-3 months to even start looking at resumes.
Which is why I assume there's never been any responses on the +5 DC questions about caster level for weapon/armor enhancements.
That FAQ/errata issue is on the list I gave to Jason, BTW.
Would PAIZO accept FAQ submissions from customers?
Any chance that the beginner box clarifies some of the really confusing stuff, like magic item creation, etc? I'm convinced most of the issues with it are copy/paste from 3.5 not meshing well with PF changes to the system.
Almost everything in the Beginner Box has been rewritten for improved clarity.
Any chance that the beginner box clarifies some of the really confusing stuff, like magic item creation, etc? I'm convinced most of the issues with it are copy/paste from 3.5 not meshing well with PF changes to the system.Almost everything in the Beginner Box has been rewritten for improved clarity.
Sounds like EVERYONE should by the beginner box...even old pros :-)
Until you get a chance to see some of the raw turnovers they get to sift through and turn into actual language that can be read, or actually understand what it is they do as opposed to what we expect designers and developers do, you're not really in a position to judge them accurately.our in-house editors, more or less... who do a fantastic job, by the way.I disagree, I would say they do an adequate job...but not a 'fantastic' job.
I've got to call BS on this. One judges work by the final product, not the starting product.
I've worked as a software developer that used third party programmers, and I've seed output that would make you vomit. But when it comes to putting my name, or my company's name on the final product, there is no passing the buck and saying "look what we started with". Either the product is worthy or release, or it's not. For me, this has in the past resulted in 80-100 hour weeks, and delayed product rather than release something that would hurt our reputation for quality.
If the third party designers/developers are handing you bags of rotten fruit, then you need to stop going to them for more. Your customer (me, at least) does not care who you bought the seeds from, they care that the fruit isn't rotten.
Would PAIZO accept FAQ submissions from customers?
I think adding another layer of text to sort out (on top of the FAQ-flagged threads with all of the followup discussion) would probably just add to the confusion at this point, but thanks for suggesting/offering that. :)
Can someone help you update the faq?FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.
Um...Shouldn't the designers and developers agree upon how a rule should work before publishing the rule?
Um...Shouldn't the designers and developers agree upon how a rule should work before publishing the rule?
Wow...fantastic point.
Can someone help you update the faq?FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.Um...Shouldn't the designers and developers agree upon how a rule should work before publishing the rule?
In the optimal world I would suggest that the answer for this should be yes, but given the size of a book like Ultimate Magic, I would say that the amount of additional time required would end up being incredible to meet that goal. I suspect it would lead to the product having a much larger price point that the books have currently. If they could be doing something more efficiently at a similar cost, I would expect them to be doing that way.
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In the optimal world I would suggest that the answer for this should be yes, but given the size of a book like Ultimate Magic, I would say that the amount of additional time required would end up being incredible to meet that goal. I suspect it would lead to the product having a much larger price point that the books have currently. If they could be doing something more efficiently at a similar cost, I would expect them to be doing that way.
I would not say it would affect the price, but it would affect the production time if they had to have a group meeting for every singlr thing that went into the book.
In the optimal world I would suggest that the answer for this should be yes, but given the size of a book like Ultimate Magic, I would say that the amount of additional time required would end up being incredible to meet that goal. I suspect it would lead to the product having a much larger price point that the books have currently. If they could be doing something more efficiently at a similar cost, I would expect them to be doing that way.Can someone help you update the faq?FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.Um...Shouldn't the designers and developers agree upon how a rule should work before publishing the rule?
I agree on this for the concept of the expansion rule books. But for the outstanding FAQ stuff for the CRB... well... And not trying to make Sean mad again, just saying that while I can accept that not everything in an expansion book would get discussed as a group until something comes up, by this point in time, I would expect all the CRB issues to have been hammered out, at least by the 3 principles. However, it sounds like they have, and we can expect the new box set to clarify a lot of issues. I just hate buying the rules over again to get those clarifications. :(
Shouldn't everyone working on the books understand the rules and be able to properly explain any new rules they are adding to the system?
Optimal world I would suggest that the answer for this should be yes, but given the size of a book like Ultimate Magic, I would say that the amount of additional time required would end up being incredible to meet that goal. I suspect it would lead to the product having a much larger price point that the books have currently.Can someone help you update the faq?FAQ issues are handled by myself, Jason, and Stephen, and all three of us have some pretty intense demands on our time every single day. It isn't the actual typing of the FAQ entry that's time-consuming, it's the discussion of and agreeing upon how a rule should work (because we don't want to have to errata an errata) that's time consuming.Um...Shouldn't the designers and developers agree upon how a rule should work before publishing the rule?
I'm trying very hard not to read the above as "For a $40 book, you shouldn't expect good quality control."
I bought a $40 hard drive from Newegg a couple of months ago. It has a 3 year warranty, and I can reasonably expect it to work for three times that long, given my past experience with products from this company. It's got uncountable man-hours of design/development/engineering time invested in it, and has to meet manufacturing specifications and tolerances that were only available to NASA twenty years ago. Yet, if I applied the above standard (if you want quality, you'd have to have a much larger price point) to my expectations, it would probably have started a fire inside my PC and burned my house to the ground.
As a customer, you and I have the right to expect and demand a quality product for the money we spend. It is only because we allow companies to sell inferior product to us and we keep coming back for more that the company feels they are meeting an acceptable standard.
[sitting at my desk looking suspiciously at my copy of Ultimate Magic, hoping that it doesn't decide to at spontaneous combustion to its long list of defects]