I'm searching for a higher level of understanding here... If any of the points below are wrong, please correct me.
source
So let's say that our mighty hero, "Two-Shay", has a Masterwork Longsword. Being a responsible fellow, he's managed to amass a considerable fortune and wants to enchant his sword. Let's also assume that Two-Shay has Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and has a CL of 15.
* If it was not masterwork, he wouldn't be able to enchant it
* Regardless of what he wants to enchant onto the weapon, he must first pay 2k for a +1 Magical Enhancement.
* To add a special ability after adding the +1, Two-Shay would have to pay the difference in cost between a +1 and a +2 enchant (8k-2k=6k). If he is just adding this as an added enhancement bonus, the weapon goes from +1 longsword to a +2 longsword. If he is adding this as a special ability (ex: Flaming), the weapon becomes a +1 Flaming longsword.
* Two-Shay cannot simply convert the base +1 Magical Enhancement bonus into a special ability. (This part doesn't make sense to me... why can't you simply have a "Flaming Longsword", it has to be a "+1 Flaming Longsword"...)
* If Two-Shay wanted to add a Vorpal enchant onto his +1 Longsword, he would have to wait 3 levels until he was CL18. The Vorpal enchant is a +5 equivalent, and the sword already has a +1 bonus on it, so the total end bonus would be a +6. Based on the rules for Craft Magic Arms and Armor associated with enchants, you must have a CL of 3 times the total bonus in order to do the enchant.
* If Two-Shay wanted to enchant his weapon to the maximum possible enchant level (+5 enhancement bonus with a +5 special ability), he would have to wait until CL30 to do so.
Almost all right, except the last part.
The caster level of the creator has to be 3x the enhancement bonus, not the total effective bonus, OR the prerquisite caster level for the given enhancement, whichever is higher.
So for example a +1 weapon you would need to be CL 3 (1x3)
for a +2 you would need CL 6 (2x3)
but for a +1 Vicious you would need CL 9 (as stated in the Vicious entry)
or a +4 Vicious would require CL 12 (4x3 is higher than the vicious one)
and for the +1 Vorpal example you would need CL 18 (shown in Vorpal entry)
Other than that you were right about everything.
Almost all right, except the last part.
The caster level of the creator has to be 3x the enhancement bonus, not the total effective bonus, OR the prerquisite caster level for the given enhancement, whichever is higher.
Ohh! Thank you so much for that clarification! I remember reading that "whichever is higher" rule when dealing with armor, I guess it just didn't click in my brain that it applies here as well.
Interzone is correct.
One other slight mistake, he wouldn't have to pay the full amount for the upgrade since he is adding the magic himself.
This is true... I had originally written this as if Two-Shay was paying an NPC for the enchants, and then I realized that that wouldn't play into determining the rules for required CL's as easily as having him do it himself.
but for a +1 Vicious you would need CL 9 (as stated in the Vicious entry)
or a +4 Vicious would require CL 12 (4x3 is higher than the vicious one)
and for the +1 Vorpal example you would need CL 18 (shown in Vorpal entry)Other than that you were right about everything.
Actually, a couple follow-up questions...
When multiplying the enhancement bonus for required CL, you don't include the bonus equivalent of the special ability? I see in your example of "+4 Vicious" that you only multiply the +4 part by 3, you don't factor in that Vicious counts as a +1.
So a +1 Keen Merciful Longsword would be...? Keen is CL10, Merciful CL5.
Further... do you actually need to meet the CL of the special ability (since you have to meet 3*enhancement) or do you just use it as the DC to beat?
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The other points were correct. You're off on the CL requirements.
"Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus.If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
* Two-Shay cannot simply convert the base +1 Magical Enhancement bonus into a special ability. (This part doesn't make sense to me... why can't you simply have a "Flaming Longsword", it has to be a "+1 Flaming Longsword"...)
More specifically, you cannot convert any enhancement to a special ability. Rather, you can upgrade a magical weapon with an enhancement to also have a special ability. For example, if Two-Shay had a +2 longsword and wanted it to have the flaming property, he would add flaming to make it into a +2 flaming longsword; there is no way to change that +2 longsword to a +1 flaming longsword without an additional rules resource beyond the core rules.
* If Two-Shay wanted to add a Vorpal enchant onto his +1 Longsword, he would have to wait 3 levels until he was CL18. The Vorpal enchant is a +5 equivalent, and the sword already has a +1 bonus on it, so the total end bonus would be a +6. Based on the rules for Craft Magic Arms and Armor associated with enchants, you must...
Weapons have a special CL requirement that is the enhancement * 3. Not the price equivalent, but rather, the plus. For a +1 vorpal longsword, this CL requirement is CL3, just like any other +1 weapon. Vorpal does not have a CL requirement; the CL listed for most magic items is for reference when dealing with a typical item, it is not a prerequisite for making the item. The vorpal property requires that the user provide the prerequisite spells circle of death and keen edge.
In Pathfinder, there is also a Spellcraft skill requirement. The DC for that is based on the CL of the item created and other factors. But, the CL for the item created, upon which the DC is based, is not necessarily the CL listed in the item description. Nor is it explicitly related to the spells that are prerequisites. What the CL is of the created weapon, and thus what the DC is to create it, is an unclear area of the PF rules. However, it very clearly is NOT CL= +6 price equivalent *3.
Weapons have a special CL requirement that is the enhancement * 3. Not the price equivalent, but rather, the plus. For a +1 vorpal longsword, this CL requirement is CL3, just like any other +1 weapon. Vorpal does not have a CL requirement; the CL listed for most magic items is for reference when dealing with a typical item, it is not a prerequisite for making the item. The vorpal property requires that the user provide the prerequisite spells circle of death and keen edge.
In Pathfinder, there is also a Spellcraft skill...
Ok... So based on this...
If Two-Shay was CL7, he could place a maximum of a +2 Enhancement bonus on a weapon (2*3=6, 6<7). The CL for +2 is 6, so DC11.
But based on what you're saying, he can add special abilities to the weapon on top of that without having any other CL requirements, he only needs to make a spellcraft check. So to add Keen (CL10), he needs to beat a DC15 check. Adding Merciful (CL5) after that would be a DC10. I could keep adding enchants (provided I have the funds and can beat the DC) until the bonus equivalent total of the special abilities totals +5. Right?
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Almost all right, except the last part.
The caster level of the creator has to be 3x the enhancement bonus, not the total effective bonus, OR the prerquisite caster level for the given enhancement, whichever is higher.
So for example a +1 weapon you would need to be CL 3 (1x3)
This is correct.
for a +2 you would need CL 6 (2x3)
This is correct.
but for a +1 Vicious you would need CL 9 (as stated in the Vicious entry)
This is not correct. The CL9 for Vicious is not a prerequisite for making it, it is merely a description of the typical Vicious sword you might find.
or a +4 Vicious would require CL 12 (4x3 is higher than the vicious one)
This is correct, it is CL12.
and for the +1 Vorpal example you would need CL 18 (shown in Vorpal entry)
This is not correct for the same reason as vicious.
An example of a weapon where the CL of the special property would figure in is the spell storing property. Spell storing includes the prerequisite, "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level." A +1 spell storing longsword would require a CL that is the higher of (+1 enhancement*3) or (CL12 for a caster of 12th level). So, the CL requirement would be CL12. For a +5 spell storing sword, the CL would be CL15 (the CL15 for the +5 is greater than the CL12 for spell storing).
Spell storing includes the prerequisite, "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level."
Can't you bypass that special prerequisite by adding 5 to the DC?
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Weapons have a special CL requirement that is the enhancement * 3. Not the price equivalent, but rather, the plus. For a +1 vorpal longsword, this CL requirement is CL3, just like any other +1 weapon. Vorpal does not have a CL requirement; the CL listed for most magic items is for reference when dealing with a typical item, it is not a prerequisite for making the item. The vorpal property requires that the user provide the prerequisite spells circle of death and keen edge.
In Pathfinder, there is also a Spellcraft skill...
Ok... So based on this...
If Two-Shay was CL7, he could place a maximum of a +2 Enhancement bonus on a weapon (2*3=6, 6<7). The CL for +2 is 6, so DC11.
This is correct. However, the ability to buy-off the CL requirement via a higher Spellcraft DC to make a higher enhancement item might allow it to be higher. I'll leave this to others to explain...I don't keep up with the debates about what can be bought off by a higher CL and what cannot.
But based on what you're saying, he can add special abilities to the weapon on top of that without having any other CL requirements, he only needs to make a spellcraft check. So to add Keen (CL10), he needs to beat a DC15 check. Adding Merciful (CL5) after that would be a DC10. I could keep adding enchants (provided I have the funds and can beat the DC) until the bonus equivalent total of the special abilities totals +5. Right?
To make a +2 keen longsword, or to add the keen on, he has to make a Spellcraft check. The DC of that check is based on the CL that is the higher of the CL for +2 enhancement or or the CL for keen. What is unclear is what the CL for keen is. The CL10 listed for keen is only descriptive of typical keen weapons found. There is no good answer that is consistent with the rules that I know of.
...My head hurts.
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Can't you bypass that special prerequisite by adding 5 to the DC?
Spell storing includes the prerequisite, "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level."
This gets to the limit of where I get involved in magic item creation discussions in PF. I find the system from here forward to be ambiguous and inconsistent with the magic system as a whole.
The CL10 listed for keen is only descriptive of typical keen weapons found. There is no good answer that is consistent with the rules that I know of.
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Note it says is given in the item description. Not typical, is given. The CL for keen is set. A weapon's CL is that of the enchantment bonusx3 or the highest special ability. This isn't to be confused with other types of magic items that can have a variable caster level. The weapon rules are quite clear and consistent.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
I would argue that the special caster level prerequisite cannot be bypassed by increasing the craft DC. Otherwise why call it out as a special prerequisite that must be met?
I will admit that there is room for debate on that, but I would rule in my game that caster level is a must.
Can't you bypass that special prerequisite by adding 5 to the DC?
Spell storing includes the prerequisite, "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level."
Here is where things get complicated, the "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level" requirement can be overcomed by adding +5 to the crafting DC BUT if the CL12 (which means that you must have a 12 caster level) can be overcomed or not is debatable.**
To explain further:As others have said in order to craft a +3 longsword you must have a minimum caster level of 9 (3*3), and the rules aren't clear if this requirement can be overcomed by taking a +5 to the crafting DC.
Now if you wanted to craft a +5 vorpal longsword you must have a caster level of 18 (the +5 requires 3*5=15 but the vorpal requires a 18), now if that requirement can be overcomed or not is unclear. My personal opinion is that you can't.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.I would argue that the special caster level prerequisite cannot be bypassed by increasing the craft DC. Otherwise why call it out as a special prerequisite that must be met?
I will admit that there is room for debate on that, but I would rule in my game that caster level is a must.
You mean that caster level requirement or caster level as a prerequisite in general?
You mean that caster level requirement or caster level as a prerequisite in general?
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.I would argue that the special caster level prerequisite cannot be bypassed by increasing the craft DC. Otherwise why call it out as a special prerequisite that must be met?
I will admit that there is room for debate on that, but I would rule in my game that caster level is a must.
I mean that and armor CL, which are both called out as special.
Actually, now that I think about it I'm pretty sure I'd make CL a hard requirement in my game in general, but that's probably stricter than the overall rules require. Not that some items can't be made at a lower CL (Pearls of Power come to mind), just that whatever the CL of the item ends up being, it can't be higher than your own caster level. If you can't cast fireball at higher than your CL, why would you be able to make a staff of fireball with a higher CL?
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Note it says is given in the item description. Not typical, is given. The CL for keen is set. A weapon's CL is that of the enchantment bonusx3 or the highest special ability. This isn't to be confused with other types of magic items that can have a variable caster level. The weapon rules are quite clear and consistent.
This is the sort of thing why I generally swear off magic item creation discussions. Time for me to crawl back in my "no magic item creation discussion" cave. :)
Deinol is correct in the quote above. It's not part of the magic item creation rules. It's not part of the errata'd magic item description. It comes just just before the weapon section itself. It is internally consistent within the weapons rules, which themselves are a bit of an exception. I overgeneralized.
So, Interzone was correct in the second post in the thread and most of what I've said about the weapon CL stuff is wrong.
You mean that caster level requirement or caster level as a prerequisite in general?
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.I would argue that the special caster level prerequisite cannot be bypassed by increasing the craft DC. Otherwise why call it out as a special prerequisite that must be met?
I will admit that there is room for debate on that, but I would rule in my game that caster level is a must.
I mean that and armor CL, which are both called out as special.
Actually, now that I think about it I'm pretty sure I'd make CL a hard requirement in my game in general, but that's probably stricter than the overall rules require. Not that some items can't be made at a lower CL (Pearls of Power come to mind), just that whatever the CL of the item ends up being, it can't be higher than your own caster level. If you can't cast fireball at higher than your CL, why would you be able to make a staff of fireball with a higher CL?
If you make it a requirement in general yes it would be very strict.
Keep in mind that staves as spell-trigger items can't be created if you don't have the spell, and you can't make spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items at a higher CL than your own caster level.
OK... so then the consensus is that that the CL of the desired ability is what determines what CL is required to add that ability to the weapon. The number of other abilities already on the weapon doesn't matter except for calculating how much it costs to perform the enchant. The Spellcraft DC of the enchant is CL+5. To determine which one is used (CL vs 3*Enhancement), calculate both and take the higher one.
Did I miss anything?
So a CL7 PC can make a +2 Merciful Holy Grayflame Longsword (all CL's of 7 or below), but can't make a +1 Flaming Longsword (Flaming=CL10)...
Can't you bypass that special prerequisite by adding 5 to the DC?
Spell storing includes the prerequisite, "creator must be a caster of at least 12th level."
Yes.
As others have said in order to craft a +3 longsword you must have a minimum caster level of 9 (3*3), and the rules aren't clear if this requirement can be overcomed by taking a +5 to the crafting DC.
Now if you wanted to craft a +5 vorpal longsword you must have a caster level of 18 (the +5 requires 3*5=15 but the vorpal requires a 18), now if that requirement can be overcomed or not is unclear. My personal opinion is that you can't.
The minimum caster level based on enhancement bonus (9 or 15 in the above examples) can be overcome by adding +5 to the craft DC. The only exceptions to the ability to overcome prerequisites are feat prerequisites, and access to the spell for scrolls, potions, wands and staves.
The CL18 listed on the Vorpal entry is not a prerequisite. The prerequisites are listed immediately following the caster level, the highest of which is what sets the DC of the crafting check. Thus it does not even need to be overcome.
Example: 14th level caster attempting to make a +5 Vorpal weapon.
Base DC is 18 (Vorpal caster level) + 5 = 23. Since the caster does not meet the 15th caster level requirement (3 * +5 enhancement bonus), he must add +5 to the DC, for 28. If he was also missing circle of death, but had access to keen edge, the DC would raise to 33. And if he tried to accelerate the crafting, the final DC would be 38. Since our caster is a cleric with a 12 int and max spellcraft, his total modifier is +18, and he needs to roll a 20 to avoid failing or cursing the item.
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OK... so then the consensus is that that the CL of the desired ability is what determines what CL is required to add that ability to the weapon. The number of other abilities already on the weapon doesn't matter except for calculating how much it costs to perform the enchant. The Spellcraft DC of the enchant is CL+5. To determine which one is used (CL vs 3*Enhancement), calculate both and take the higher one.
Did I miss anything?
(peeks out from cave)
You've got it. The CL for the enhancement is (enhancement*3). The CL for the each special ability is the CL for that special ability as [given] in the description of that ability. The CL for the weapon overall is the greater/greatest of those. The Spellcraft DC is 5+(CL of weapon overall) (assuming you don't buy off any prerequisites, etc.)
A examples examples to illustrate:
You have a +2 longsword and want to add keen, to make it a +2 keen longsword. The CL for the enhancement is CL 6. The CL for keen is CL 10. The CL for the weapon is thus CL 10.
You have a +4 longsword and want to add keen, to make it a +4 keen longsword. The CL for the enhancement is CL 12. The CL for keen is CL 10. The CL for the weapon is thus CL 12; you would have to be be CL 12, even though you're adding keen, which is only CL 10, because the resulting weapon would be CL 12 overall. The Spellcraft check is DC 17.
You have a +4 longsword (CL 12) and want to add keen (CL 10) and flaming burst (CL 12). The resulting +4 keen flaming burst longsword would be CL 12. You would need to be CL 12 and the Spellcraft check would be DC 17.
All DCs assume you provide all the prerequisites (whatever they are). You can take 10 on the Spellcraft checks (usually making them trivial for most characters who would make the items, if they have the prerequisites).
Sorry for confusing it earlier; we both learned.
(crawls back into cave)
Rearranging paragraph to correct:
"OK... so then the CL of the desired ability has nothing to do with the prerequisites to add that ability to the weapon, only the DC. The enhancement bonus and specific prerequisites ("creator must be a caster of level X") do affect the prerequisites. Simply add +5 to the DC if a caster level prerequisite is not met. The number of other abilities already on the weapon doesn't matter except for calculating how much it costs to perform the enchant. The Spellcraft DC of the enchant is CL+5. To determine which one is used (CL vs 3*Enhancement), calculate both and take the higher one."
Rearranging paragraph to correct:
"OK... so then the CL of the desired ability has nothing to do with the prerequisites to add that ability to the weapon, only the DC. The enhancement bonus and specific prerequisites ("creator must be a caster of level X") do affect the prerequisites. Simply add +5 to the DC if a caster level prerequisite is not met. The number of other abilities already on the weapon doesn't matter except for calculating how much it costs to perform the enchant. The Spellcraft DC of the enchant is CL+5. To determine which one is used (CL vs 3*Enhancement), calculate both and take the higher one."
Wrong, sorry. You cannot add +5 to bypass special requirements. Special requirements are called out in the weapon creation and armor creation sections. Those are :
Caster Level 3*Enhancement bonus
Higher of Caster Level 3*Enhancement Bonus or CL of special property, if both are present.
You can't bypass those as they are not requirements, they are special requirements laid out in the creation rule section, not in the statblock. Yes, the CL of the power is in it's stat-block, but the text calling it a requirement is not in the statblock (IE: It's not in a section of the stablock labeled 'requirements').
EDIT : Just to be perfectly clear, a 1st level caster cannot create a +1 sword by taking the DC and adding 5, no more than he could create a +5 by adding 5 to the DC for that check. A caster at CL 1 is simply incapable of making a +1 sword. When he hit's 3rd level, he is, but is not capable of making a +2 sword.
Wrong, sorry. You cannot add +5 to bypass special requirements. Special requirements are called out in the weapon creation and armor creation sections.
So then my previous post was correct:
Did I miss anything?
So a CL7 PC can make a +2 Merciful Holy Grayflame Longsword (all CL's of 7 or below), but can't make a +1 Flaming Longsword (Flaming=CL10)...
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Rearranging paragraph to correct:
"OK... so then the CL of the desired ability has nothing to do with the prerequisites to add that ability to the weapon, only the DC. The enhancement bonus and specific prerequisites ("creator must be a caster of level X") do affect the prerequisites. Simply add +5 to the DC if a caster level prerequisite is not met. The number of other abilities already on the weapon doesn't matter except for calculating how much it costs to perform the enchant. The Spellcraft DC of the enchant is CL+5. To determine which one is used (CL vs 3*Enhancement), calculate both and take the higher one."
(the cave is good...stay in the cave....crawls out of the cave and blinks in the light)
"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities."
I'm not sure I know for certain, which is why I normally stay out of these discussions. It looks to me that the higher of the two caster levels forms the special prerequisite. It is a level of deconstruction and removal from context that I'm not comfortable with otherwise. The paragraph is headed with the topic sentence that magic items have a special prerequisite. The paragraph describes what that special prerequisite is. The bolded word above is "requirements" not "prerequisites," which gives the ambiguity a leg to stand on. In this context, I find it really hard to say that the two are not equivalent.
I am keenly aware of the general issue about the descriptive CL not being a prerequisite and how that has filtered through errata going back to 3e.
(Where is the cave? Who took the cave?)
posted stuff:(the cave is good...stay in the cave....crawls out of the cave and blinks in the light)"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities."
I'm not sure I know for certain, which is why I normally stay out of these discussions. It looks to me that the higher of the two caster levels forms the special prerequisite. It is a level of deconstruction and removal from context that I'm not comfortable with otherwise. The paragraph is headed with the topic sentence that magic items have a special prerequisite. The paragraph describes what that special prerequisite is. The bolded word above is "requirements" not "prerequisites," which gives the ambiguity a leg to stand on. In this context, I find it really hard to say that the two are not equivalent.
I am keenly aware of the general issue about the descriptive CL not being a prerequisite and how that has filtered through errata going back to 3e.
(Where is the cave? Who took the cave?)
I agree with the crowd that says that you can't add 5 to the DC to overcome the CL requirements... I feel that those were put in place to control how quickly you can gain access to powerful items. The reason I asked about adding 5 to the DC earlier was due to the way that Spellstoring is listed:
Aura Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.It seems to be the only enchant which specifically lists a required CL as part of the creation requirements.
This raises a very obvious question. Why is this the only one to list that level requirement? One interpretation is that we're all completely wrong in how magic weapon creation functions. The other explanation is that it was just extra information. Third explanation is... That requirement is in there so that a player using Master Craftsman (who isn't actually a spell caster) cannot add Spell Storing to a weapon.
Anomalies are a problem.
This raises a very obvious question. Why is this the only one to list that level requirement? One interpretation is that we're all completely wrong in how magic weapon creation functions. The other explanation is that it was just extra information. Third explanation is... That requirement is in there so that a player using Master Craftsman (who isn't actually a spell caster) cannot add Spell Storing to a weapon.
Sorry to say, it's Option 1. Caster level is *NOT* a pre-req, except under the "special prerequisite" as quoted above by Howie.
mdt/Howie: There is nothing to indicate that prerequisite is exempt from being overcome. ["requirement" not withstanding]
There's nothing anomalous about a few specific items (spell storing weapons, ioun stones, along with bracers of armor, cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, and magic weapons/armor) from having an additional caster level prerequisite that makes it harder to make them early on. Harder, not impossible.
I am keenly aware of the general issue about the descriptive CL not being a prerequisite and how that has filtered through errata going back to 3e.
Thank you for that. Soooo frustrating sometimes - I envy you your cave... I mean my cave...
The minimum caster level based on enhancement bonus (9 or 15 in the above examples) can be overcome by adding +5 to the craft DC. The only exceptions to the ability to overcome prerequisites are feat prerequisites, and access to the spell for scrolls, potions, wands and staves.
Actually, it only applies to spell completion or spell trigger items. In other words, potions should NOT be on your list as they are neither spell completion or spell trigger items. My wizard can easily craft cure potions with but a +5 to the DC.
It's one of the few things making Brew Potion worth getting.
Wrong, sorry. You cannot add +5 to bypass special requirements. Special requirements are called out in the weapon creation and armor creation sections. Those are :
Caster Level 3*Enhancement bonus
Higher of Caster Level 3*Enhancement Bonus or CL of special property, if both are present.You can't bypass those as they are not requirements, they are special requirements laid out in the creation rule section, not in the statblock. Yes, the CL of the power is in it's stat-block, but the text calling it a requirement is not in the statblock (IE: It's not in a section of the stablock labeled 'requirements').
EDIT : Just to be perfectly clear, a 1st level caster cannot create a +1 sword by taking the DC and adding 5, no more than he could create a +5 by adding 5 to the DC for that check. A caster at CL 1 is simply incapable of making a +1 sword. When he hit's 3rd level, he is, but is not capable of making a +2 sword.
I disagree. You can bypass requirements by adding +5 to the DC. It doesn't really matter where the requirements are coming from. It doesn't specify anywhere that you can ONLY bypass those listed in the requirements line of various magic items.
I disagree. You can bypass requirements by adding +5 to the DC. It doesn't really matter where the requirements are coming from. It doesn't specify anywhere that you can ONLY bypass those listed in the requirements line of various magic items.
OK, regardless of whether or not you can bypass the CL requirement by adding 5 to the DC, is this methodology correct?
* CL required = 3 * enhancement bonus OR CL of special ability, whichever is higher
* The +X equivalent for special abilities is not factored in to the enhancement bonus when multiplying for CL. The +X bonus is simply there to indicate how many "slots" the enchant takes up, and thus how much it costs.
As far as the CL bypassing discussion...
I've followed several of these +5 DC discussions over the past few months, and I'm already aware that everyone has their interpretation of the rules as far as which direction this falls in the gray area. It's one of the "the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence" type of situations. In the end, DM's discretion. The way the rules are written support it going in either direction (allow +5 to bypass CL, don't allow +5 to bypass CL).
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mdt/Howie: There is nothing to indicate that prerequisite is exempt from being overcome. ["requirement" not withstanding]
I didn't say it was. In fact, I've sidestepped the whole issue of what prerequisites can be bought off. I've been wrong on some stuff in this thread and learned from it. I'm not wrong on this because I haven't stated an opinion about what can be bought off. :P
That is how they were presented during the Beta when they were introduced, that is how they were discussed. Taking 10 turns them into the same thing as Epic spells were - if you can Take 10 to get it, you learn it, otherwise you would NEVER try, since who's going to risk over 50% chance of failure?
Developer forum posts are not official. That said, SKR has posted that you can take 10 on the Spellcraft checks for crafting items. If it wasn't intended, the developers don't know that; by whom was it intended? You can take 10 anytime you are not in immediate danger and not distracted. Crafting an item provides no immediate danger and the crafting environment is kinda designed to prevent being distracted. Thus you can take 10.
In addition, as we've agreed, caster level isn't a prerequisite in the general case. In addition, while I've been corrected in this thread regarding the specific case of weapons, CL of an item is generally something chosen by the caster, under some restrictions. This is true for the resulting item; and that choice, not the item description, is what sets the CL for the Spellcraft check as well. While developer forum posts are not official, the FAQ is (Jason said so...in an unoffical forum post (grin)). And this bit on choosing the CL, and that the chosen CL sets the DC, is in the FAQ. Convenient Link.
@AerynTahlro
As you can see there isn't a consesus on this thing (that's why i said that it's debatable).
A couple of things about magic item creation aren't clear, you just happended to stumble at one of those few things.
My advice is to pick an opinion yourself about that thing and move on.
This raises a very obvious question. Why is this the only one to list that level requirement? One interpretation is that we're all completely wrong in how magic weapon creation functions. The other explanation is that it was just extra information. Third explanation is... That requirement is in there so that a player using Master Craftsman (who isn't actually a spell caster) cannot add Spell Storing to a weapon.
I want to say it's either a typo or forward compability, but i might be wrong.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
OK, regardless of whether or not you can bypass the CL requirement by adding 5 to the DC, is this methodology correct?
* CL required = 3 * enhancement bonus OR CL of special ability, whichever is higher
* The +X equivalent for special abilities is not factored in to the enhancement bonus when multiplying for CL. The +X bonus is simply there to indicate how many "slots" the enchant takes up, and thus how much it costs.
If it is a straight up enhancement bonus (rather than an ability), your CL needs to be 3 x that of the bonus.
If your weapon has both enhancement bonuses AND equivalent abilities, you use the higher caster level. For example, a +1 vorpal sword requires you to have a CL 3 for the enhancement bonus and a CL 18 for the vorpal property. As such, you would need to have CL 18 to create the vorpal weapon (as it is the higher CL of the two). They do not factor at all, you simply use the higher CL.
Whether you can bypass either CL requirement by adding +5 to the DC is, obviously, up to debate. I hope that helps.
OK, regardless of whether or not you can bypass the CL requirement by adding 5 to the DC, is this methodology correct?
* CL required = 3 * enhancement bonus OR CL of special ability, whichever is higher
* The +X equivalent for special abilities is not factored in to the enhancement bonus when multiplying for CL. The +X bonus is simply there to indicate how many "slots" the enchant takes up, and thus how much it costs.If it is a straight up enhancement bonus (rather than an ability), your CL needs to be 3 x that of the bonus.
If your weapon has both enhancement bonuses AND equivalent abilities, you use the higher caster level. For example, a +1 vorpal sword requires you to have a CL 3 for the enhancement bonus and a CL 18 for the vorpal property. As such, you would need to have CL 18 to create the vorpal weapon (as it is the higher CL of the two). They do not factor at all, you simply use the higher CL.
Whether you can bypass either CL requirement by adding +5 to the DC is, obviously, up to debate. I hope that helps.
Ravingdork is correct.
I really really really wish the devs would put someone on FAQ duty. There's been little or no updates on most of them. And stuff like this keeps coming up in the forums every week or so. It's actually a fairly short FAQ entry, less than 10 minutes to type up. :(
I really really really wish the devs would put someone on FAQ duty. There's been little or no updates on most of them. And stuff like this keeps coming up in the forums every week or so. It's actually a fairly short FAQ entry, less than 10 minutes to type up. :(
To my understanding, the devs aren't touching magic item creation rules with a ten foot pole for quite some time now, why do you think that this will change now?
I really really really wish the devs would put someone on FAQ duty. There's been little or no updates on most of them. And stuff like this keeps coming up in the forums every week or so. It's actually a fairly short FAQ entry, less than 10 minutes to type up. :(To my understanding, the devs aren't touching magic item creation rules with a ten foot pole for quite some time now, why do you think that this will change now?
I don't. I just feel like if you put something out, and it's obviously messed up (which it obviously is) you should do your job and fix it. I guess that's too much to expect now a days.