With no rarity scheme, you end up with as many beholders in existence as ogres. Since beholders are generally solo encounters there is a lot more supply then demand and they end up costing $5-$10 on the secondary market. But DMs need a lot of ogres for ogre encounters making the demand much greater than supply and driving up the secondary market price to $15-$20 per ogre. That's not a good thing for DMs.
Or they're equally frustrated at having to buy MORE random packs to fill out the numbers of what should be common critters.
I am tending to agree about the chasing of rares being a good thing, but the problem comes with "crap rares" that no one wants. Examples of this include some of the later sets in DDM. Also, see MTG for several examples of rares that they made, were terrible, and no one wanted.
Rarity will only be useful if a secondary game is attached to it. Since Paizo isn't producing these products and Wizkids is, I wouldn't be surprised, assuming that they decide to do more, that a skirmish minis game will be in the works shortly thereafter.
Although, I still think my plan for "rarity" would be the best of both worlds. Have a smaller amount of figures in a set, but all of the "commons" have a higher production number than the other rarities allowing for duplicates in the processing. This will be useful as you don't have to develop that many figures for a set.
I'm falling in the "lets see a boxed set for each Adventure Path" group.
I don't want to have to buy 4 boxed sets with lots of duplicates just to get the one mini that I need for next weeks game session.
Also, releasing groups of standard mob monsters (Kobolds, goblins, orcs, skeletons etc.) would be useful too.
I don't like the concept of "collectible or rare minis". Price them based on the amount of plastic used to make them. Don't price them based on an artificial rarity because you made a smaller batch to sell.
And for Cayden's sake, please make some decent vampires.
I'm falling in the "lets see a boxed set for each Adventure Path" group.
While a nice dream, it's not practical. There are a huge number of minis that would be needed for all the encounters in an AP. The required production time from the last module being finished to the minis reaching stores is too long. Many groups would be finished with the AP before the minis were available. Lastly, and most importantly, some APs are less popular then others. Boxed sets for these would sell poorly and result in a loss for the company putting out the minis.
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I'm falling in the "lets see a boxed set for each Adventure Path" group.While a nice dream, it's not practical. There are a huge number of minis that would be needed for all the encounters in an AP. The required production time from the last module being finished to the minis reaching stores is too long. Many groups would be finished with the AP before the minis were available. Lastly, and most importantly, some APs are less popular then others. Boxed sets for these would sell poorly and result in a loss for the company putting out the minis.
just to show you what Mandor is saying, this is a quote from Reaperbryan in another thread:
On a lark, Ed & I sat down and crunched numbers. Just to Run Kingmaker :the Stolen land required over 100 miniatures, and at projected MSRP would cost over $400.
And that's just one book of the AP.
Granted, I'm guessing he's talking about metal and not pre painted plastic. But from what I've read, the cost is similar if you are looking at non-random. are you ready to spend $1800 a adenture path (plus 120 for the books, plus anything else you need to buy brings it easily over 2K)
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Since Paizo isn't producing these products and Wizkids is, I wouldn't be surprised, assuming that they decide to do more, that a skirmish minis game will be in the works shortly thereafter.
I highly doubt that WizKids would develop a skirmish game based on Pathfinder minis. WizKids is a small company that is busy enough with HeroClix and the other games they are putting out that I don't think they would want to take the time to create a skirmish game based on someone else's licensed property.
And if WizKids wanted to make a fantasy miniatures game I would think that they would use their own Mage Knight property, and that the game would once again be based on the clix dial. And, of course, the clix dial is set to use 1.5 inch squares and might not be as useful to Pathfinder players.
Now if Paizo wanted to develop the skirmish game and partner with WizKids to use their sculptors and let them worry about creating and selling the actual minis, I could see WizKids possibly doing it, but I don't necessarily think that it would be fully worth the time and effort that the Paizo employees might have to put in it.
I can see other figures being made if these ones are successful, but I'm not holding my breath for a skirmish game attached to them.
Reaper Miniatures
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I'm falling in the "lets see a boxed set for each Adventure Path" group.While a nice dream, it's not practical. There are a huge number of minis that would be needed for all the encounters in an AP. The required production time from the last module being finished to the minis reaching stores is too long. Many groups would be finished with the AP before the minis were available. Lastly, and most importantly, some APs are less popular then others. Boxed sets for these would sell poorly and result in a loss for the company putting out the minis.just to show you what Mandor is saying, this is a quote from Reaperbryan in another thread:
Granted, I'm guessing he's talking about metal and not pre painted plastic. But from what I've read, the cost is similar if you are looking at non-random. are you ready to spend $1800 a adenture path (plus 120 for the books, plus anything else you need to buy brings it easily over 2K)On a lark, Ed & I sat down and crunched numbers. Just to Run Kingmaker :the Stolen land required over 100 miniatures, and at projected MSRP would cost over $400.
And that's just one book of the AP.
In that same Thread, Liz Courts showed that the Paizo staff had found the exact same thing - and they further extrapolated that while 100 minis covers book one of Kingmaker, 600 minis would be needed for the entire AP. Even WOTC wasn't doing 600 mini runs in the DDM heyday.
I know now what "I" want to see in these. I want GOLARION specific character types/weapons.
People may have hundreds of gnomes/elves/humans.... "I" don't, and never can find one I want... so I want MORE of them... As a player, I want PCs.
REGARDLESS....
NOW... NOW I want pc style characters... with EARTHBREAKERS, and SAWTOOTH SABERS... Varisian Scarf dancers, alchemist characters... Things that we DON"T already have from the D&D sets...
FYI, crap pieces like the 'pile of gold' we got in one set... PLEASE lose those!!!
FYI, crap pieces like the 'pile of gold' we got in one set... PLEASE lose those!!!
I've used the common Hoard Scarab Larva Swarm twice in encounters. It's one thing to read a room description saying coins are scattered all over the floor. It's much more fun to cover the room with 'pile of gold' minis and have the PCs worried about why the minis are there.
The random method allowed WotC to produce a wide range of figures (1300+). Sure, some figures were not liked by some people but others liked them and were able to meet their needs through trading of the secondary market.
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I'm confident that PAIZO will select to pursue this in an amazing way that is new and fresh.
If there is one thing I enjoy is the lack of smell of wotc-style decision-making.
One such fresh way to do things is to create a new climate of mini-players, not through marking exploits but rather from pure love of PATHFINDER RPG.
The "3.5 Thrives" motto was a great example of bunking the current trends and continuing a succession of the latter game.
With minis, it would sure be nice to see PAIZO support the current game, something that wotc never did well i.e. as soon as a version came out, they were off trying to support all kinds of other things.
If you think about our game (PFRPG), you see that it involves the Monte Cook style of mini play, as much as it supports pure rp, or DM handwaiving - in short, v.3.5 had gotten the overall balance right to be a game for everyone of all kinds of styles... yet, it was struck down in its prime, and the company never really supported the ACTUAL game it was selling in a 1:1 way.
Something fresh, and holistic, would be to see the game supported as it is. For example, we will soon be using the Bestiary 3. It would follow that creatures from the bestiary 3 would be a great companion to that book.
The old regime (the wotc) never really supported customers like PAIZO does. For example, I can now receive an adventure path delivered to my door, and also pick up a deck of cards matching the path at my flgs. This, I believe is a great way PAIZO continues to understand gamers, especially game masters. I love how the map pack tiles such as graveyard, supports the flip mat for grave yard, for example.
This, I feel, would be the most natural way to proceed, with focus not on greed, or models of years past, but with new fresh look holistically at the gamer, and supporting their needs. This is the integrity that keeps me soulbound to PAIZO.
*just my 2cp*
Thanks for listening.
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Right hereI might point out that you can purchase individual miniatures on this very site. So if you are interesting in giving Paizo money directly, well you don't get much more direct than that.Pre-painted individual miniatures?
Thanks for sharing - but they are still 'rarity' priced. And also largely unavailable. But, still, thanks for pointing it out.
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I have 2012 prepainted wotc minis (924 unique sculpts) I have used over half of them in pathfinder society games.
That being said, I have over 200 sculpts of humans/elves/dwarves, and don't want any more other than the iconics, so these would all be 'bad minis' in my eyes... is that what you were meaning as well?
I bet if you asked wizards why they never made a flumph mini they'll say 'because it's a bad mini' but look at how a fan uprising of flumph support caused a awesome paizo book like misfits redeemed.
You have multiple points in your post, so I will break them apart to respond.
'over 200 sculpts... 'bad minis'...as well.'
Yes, to me, those would be bad. And I should have the option of not buying them in the first place.
'I bet... redeemed.'
I never said they shouldn't make them in the first place. I said I shouldn't have to purchase them to get to the ones I actually want. And as for making flumph minis, if that is what people ask them to make, then by all means, make them and sell them, just don't bundle them up such that I have to buy a flumph to get a guardsman or an orc.
I'm confident that PAIZO will select to pursue this in an amazing way that is new and fresh.
If there is one thing I enjoy is the lack of smell of wotc-style decision-making.
One such fresh way to do things is to create a new climate of mini-players, not through marking exploits but rather from pure love of PATHFINDER RPG.
The "3.5 Thrives" motto was a great example of bunking the current trends and continuing a succession of the latter game.
With minis, it would sure be nice to see PAIZO support the current game, something that wotc never did well i.e. as soon as a version came out, they were off trying to support all kinds of other things.
If you think about our game (PFRPG), you see that it involves the Monte Cook style of mini play, as much as it supports pure rp, or DM handwaiving - in short, v.3.5 had gotten the overall balance right to be a game for everyone of all kinds of styles... yet, it was struck down in its prime, and the company never really supported the ACTUAL game it was selling in a 1:1 way.
Something fresh, and holistic, would be to see the game supported as it is. For example, we will soon be using the Bestiary 3. It would follow that creatures from the bestiary 3 would be a great companion to that book.
The old regime (the wotc) never really supported customers like PAIZO does. For example, I can now receive an adventure path delivered to my door, and also pick up a deck of cards matching the path at my flgs. This, I believe is a great way PAIZO continues to understand gamers, especially game masters. I love how the map pack tiles such as graveyard, supports the flip mat for grave yard, for example.
This, I feel, would be the most natural way to proceed, with focus not on greed, or models of years past, but with new fresh look holistically at the gamer, and supporting their needs. This is the integrity that keeps me soulbound to PAIZO.
*just my 2cp*
Thanks for listening.
TL;DR
What?
:P
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I am looking forward to these minis and will pick them up. I grew up without using minis because they were rather pricey "back then" (where the value of "back then" = way more time than the author wishes to admit to in any sort of written format) so I have all of two at the moment. While I would love the time to paint metal minis, I do not have it. Between my career, keeping up my home, the gaming I can fit in, and school to stay up to date in my career... time is special so if the minis ended up being well done (and it appears that they are) I will definitely pick up with whatever is released that meets my wants.
Thanks to Paizo for trying something new (for them) and yes, please stay away from that rarity crap.
~:FV:~
I never said they shouldn't make them in the first place. I said I shouldn't have to purchase them to get to the ones I actually want. And as for making flumph minis, if that is what people ask them to make, then by all means, make them and sell them, just don't bundle them up such that I have to buy a flumph to get a guardsman or an orc.
Although, I agree in principle that you should only have to buy the minis you want, if they don't do random packs they will never make a number of the creatures in the bestiaries. I would really like to have a set of all of the outsiders (angels, aeons, proteans, devils, demons, daemons, etc), and they will never be able to make all of those without some sort of collectible mini line. Now, I do really hope that we see things like a clamshell pack of 6 to 10 goblins, where you can see every sculpt in the pack. I looked at some of the Whizkids minis this weekend and I like the way they did the mix between random packs and visible sets.
Not really. Regardless of how WotC bungled the "end" of DDM, they didn't do a bad job of the overall run.I find it strange for people to say the DDM were a failure, despite having 5 years and 17 really good sets and then falling the last year or two.
I would never say that the DDM line was a failure, however I do think WotC did make some mistakes in sculpt selection, and rarity levels, that they got away with for quite awhile, because of the number of creatures that got minis that most of us thought we would never see. Also, you could only get away with continual price increases, decreased paint quality (near the end of the run it was rather bad, and then improved finally right before the end), and fewer minis per pack, for so long.
EDIT: In fact as I mentioned to Erik at PaizoCon last weekend, I would be willing to bet that Paizo hopes they fail at PPMs as well as WotC did.
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I never said they shouldn't make them in the first place. I said I shouldn't have to purchase them to get to the ones I actually want. And as for making flumph minis, if that is what people ask them to make, then by all means, make them and sell them, just don't bundle them up such that I have to buy a flumph to get a guardsman or an orc.Although, I agree in principle that you should only have to buy the minis you want, if they don't do random packs they will never make a number of the creatures in the bestiaries. I would really like to have a set of all of the outsiders (angels, aeons, proteans, devils, demons, daemons, etc), and they will never be able to make all of those without some sort of collectible mini line. Now, I do really hope that we see things like a clamshell pack of 6 to 10 goblins, where you can see every sculpt in the pack. I looked at some of the Whizkids minis this weekend and I like the way they did the mix between random packs and visible sets.
I'm not a fan of reality, but I get that the 'random route' is a way to increasing quantity of minis. It may be that a compromise will be attempted, which at the very least to me would be an improvement.
I myself don't want 1 of everything - but I would desperately love more 'staple' minis.
I saw it mentioned in the thread about doing every miniature from an AP - that wasn't what I was going for though. There are some things you can hand wave to an acceptable standard, such as goblins, orcs, guardsmen, bandits, etc. You don't need to have exactly the right one for everything, but some sort of mixer pack is a great idea. I hadn't considered it to be honest.
And I wasn't even aware Reaper was doing pre-painted plastic minis until this thread, so thanks for that whoever pointed it out.
I just know for myself that I will likely skip most of the line of minis if I don't know what I will be getting.
This has been a good discussion for me though. I feel more knowledgeable for participating in it. (I can't say the same for many of the threads I have seen though...)
I never said they shouldn't make them in the first place. I said I shouldn't have to purchase them to get to the ones I actually want. And as for making flumph minis, if that is what people ask them to make, then by all means, make them and sell them, just don't bundle them up such that I have to buy a flumph to get a guardsman or an orc.Although, I agree in principle that you should only have to buy the minis you want, if they don't do random packs they will never make a number of the creatures in the bestiaries. I would really like to have a set of all of the outsiders (angels, aeons, proteans, devils, demons, daemons, etc), and they will never be able to make all of those without some sort of collectible mini line. Now, I do really hope that we see things like a clamshell pack of 6 to 10 goblins, where you can see every sculpt in the pack. I looked at some of the Whizkids minis this weekend and I like the way they did the mix between random packs and visible sets.I'm not a fan of reality, but I get that the 'random route' is a way to increasing quantity of minis. It may be that a compromise will be attempted, which at the very least to me would be an improvement.
I myself don't want 1 of everything - but I would desperately love more 'staple' minis.
I saw it mentioned in the thread about doing every miniature from an AP - that wasn't what I was going for though. There are some things you can hand wave to an acceptable standard, such as goblins, orcs, guardsmen, bandits, etc. You don't need to have exactly the right one for everything, but some sort of mixer pack is a great idea. I hadn't considered it to be honest.
And I wasn't even aware Reaper was doing pre-painted plastic minis until this thread, so thanks for that whoever pointed it out.
I just know for myself that I will likely skip most of the line of minis if I don't know what I will be getting.
This has been a good discussion for me though. I feel more knowledgeable...
And thank you for contributing to the discussion it has been quite interesting and informative. And honestly I would really like them to release a PPM of every creature they have done, and let me pick the ones I want and have them cost like $1 a piece. ;) My biggest wish for this discussion is to throw out some of the things that WotC did and say what can we do to improve on the line well still getting the quantity of miniatures.
I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.
Reaper enjoys a huge advantage -- "free" sculpts. Even so, they have been rather slow to get out new models. The line is what...three, four years old, and you still can't get more than a handful of sculpts. I think they're a great product, and I've bought a few dozen, but the range really needs to be better. Oddly, if they got to a critical mass selection wise, I'd buy a lot more.
Since Paizo isn't producing these products and Wizkids is, I wouldn't be surprised, assuming that they decide to do more, that a skirmish minis game will be in the works shortly thereafter.I highly doubt that WizKids would develop a skirmish game based on Pathfinder minis. WizKids is a small company that is busy enough with HeroClix and the other games they are putting out that I don't think they would want to take the time to create a skirmish game based on someone else's licensed property.
And if WizKids wanted to make a fantasy miniatures game I would think that they would use their own Mage Knight property, and that the game would once again be based on the clix dial. And, of course, the clix dial is set to use 1.5 inch squares and might not be as useful to Pathfinder players.
Now if Paizo wanted to develop the skirmish game and partner with WizKids to use their sculptors and let them worry about creating and selling the actual minis, I could see WizKids possibly doing it, but I don't necessarily think that it would be fully worth the time and effort that the Paizo employees might have to put in it.
I can see other figures being made if these ones are successful, but I'm not holding my breath for a skirmish game attached to them.
Well if they do decide to make more of these, what is the incentive to do so? If they only make AP sets or something of that nature, then it falls into the problem of the non-random minis where they will not sell enough to keep the line going. By making a minis game to go with it they will potentially get a sub-section of the purchasing group buying them in an effort to keep the line going. If DMs only purchase a handful of the minis for the encounters they use, the skirmish gamers will keep buying in an effort to get what they want.
I'm convinced that if we argued and complained less, Paizo would make more products for us.
I'm convinced that if we argued and complained less, Paizo would make more products for us.
Squeeky wheels get the grease.
I'm convinced that if we argued and complained less, Paizo would make more products for us.
And I'm convinced that's nonsense. YMMV.
In that same Thread, Liz Courts showed that the Paizo staff had found the exact same thing - and they further extrapolated that while 100 minis covers book one of Kingmaker, 600 minis would be needed for the entire AP. Even WOTC wasn't doing 600 mini runs in the DDM heyday.Granted, I'm guessing he's talking about metal and not pre painted plastic. But from what I've read, the cost is similar if you are looking at non-random. are you ready to spend $1800 a adenture path (plus 120 for the books, plus anything else you need to buy brings it easily over 2K)On a lark, Ed & I sat down and crunched numbers. Just to Run Kingmaker :the Stolen land required over 100 miniatures, and at projected MSRP would cost over $400.
And that's just one book of the AP.
This is all very true - but who says it has to include every mini? I'd much rather see a set with, say, 12 iconic minis from the Adventure Path than a complete set that gives me another those 12 plus 100 uncommon figures and 500 common figures.
Let the common figures be part of the general market, and make the Adventure Path line small (in quantity, but likely large in size) and cool.
I'm convinced that if we argued and complained less, Paizo would make more products for us.Squeeky wheels get the grease.
And if they continue to squeek, they get replaced.
In that same Thread, Liz Courts showed that the Paizo staff had found the exact same thing - and they further extrapolated that while 100 minis covers book one of Kingmaker, 600 minis would be needed for the entire AP. Even WOTC wasn't doing 600 mini runs in the DDM heyday.Granted, I'm guessing he's talking about metal and not pre painted plastic. But from what I've read, the cost is similar if you are looking at non-random. are you ready to spend $1800 a adenture path (plus 120 for the books, plus anything else you need to buy brings it easily over 2K)On a lark, Ed & I sat down and crunched numbers. Just to Run Kingmaker :the Stolen land required over 100 miniatures, and at projected MSRP would cost over $400.
And that's just one book of the AP.
This is all very true - but who says it has to include every mini? I'd much rather see a set with, say, 12 iconic minis from the Adventure Path than a complete set that gives me another those 12 plus 100 uncommon figures and 500 common figures.
Let the common figures be part of the general market, and make the Adventure Path line small (in quantity, but likely large in size) and cool.
I actually really like this idea. For Kingmaker I can think of 10 or so characters I would want unique minis for. 2 per book/month would probably work well, and would be a production schedual I think they could maintain.
I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.Most in the business would disagree with you. I know that Lisa Stevens has already made public comments to that effect.
Reaper may be doing a satisfactory (to them) business in selling pre-painted plastic minis, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they never have, and never will, sell in the numbers that DDM sold in.
Sadly Reaper is intent on applying their lead mini marketing experience to their Pre-Painted Minis (PPM's). I still believe this is a big mistake not only for Reaper but for us as well since this means fewer PPM's on the market.
What are Reaper's mistakes (according to me)?
1. Single unit packaging
2. Not mounted on a geometric base
3. Few paint steps
4. Not collectable
5. Visible minis
1. Single unit packaging is a mistake because some minis can cost quite a bit more than others... in fact some can cost dramatically more especially as the number of paint steps go up. Its hard to justify asking $10.00 for a single mini, but in a set its easier to recoup the costs, especially if that set has a very cheap figure in it (like a 1 color "shadow" mini or such).
2. People buy PPM's to use them in a game. As a game piece, the mini should come on standard gaming base, not a piece of plastic broccoli. Yes you can glue it onto a base, but PPM buyers are buying the item because they do not want to paint the mini, so they probably do not want to take the time to mount it either. (Add in the fact that the glued on base is invariably going to pop off after a couple uses in the game anyways).
3. To keep the per mini price reasonable Reaper limits the paint steps. Hurray for us, but many look as bad as WotC's after they started to cheap out. I'm not expecting a professional paint job, but as per #1 if you started packaging in sets at least you could paint the occasional one better than others.
4. Non-collectable = less sales. Period. You need to limit the production run to help hype the sales of the minis and place a sense of "urgency" to buy the mini before its no longer available. The more sales you have and the quicker you make money, the quicker you can justify the production of new sets. Long gone are the days of people calling PPM's "Plastic-crack". Collectable sets (especially the randomized & rarity sets) really appeal well to impulse buyers and collectors. So many times I saw people in my FLGS wavering on how many DDM's to buy. It was like watching someone with a gambling addiction habit. Most entertaining.
5. Visible mini's appeal to many people. The reason for this though is because these people don't understand the PPM business. I'm sure if you surveyed these people and told them that they could have 10 visible minis to select from or 60 non-visible to select from, that these people would go for the non-visible because they recognize the value of having a lot more to select from. (Plus with eBay around and other online stores, non-visible minis soon become visible minis for sale). This is also great for the manufacturer, since now you have these "secondary sellers" buying VAST quantities of the minis. Additionally, when mini's are visible (and non-collectable) now people do not feel any urgency to buy them. They know that maybe if in 1 year from now IF they are going to play a female elven archer, they know that Reaper has one, so perhaps they will come back in 1 year to buy it when they need it. Need-based selling works fine for metal minis since the production costs are so low. As mentioned previously, PPM's are very expensive to make and higher sales and rapid sales helps to justify the production costs and a profit can be realized far quicker -- and this is key since the longer it takes to finally make a profit on the item, the less likely more will be produced.
Summary:
For the reasons above sales of Reapers PPM's will continue to be mediocre at best. (No, their sales are not "great"). Because of this we will never see many new PPM's from Reaper. Sadly, I don't think Reaper even cares though as they are not a big risk taker type of company. As long as the line is making "some" profit, then they are happy since at the core they are hobbyists running a business and not the other way around (and that has been a cheif factor in the huge success of their lead minis -- but it just doesn't work for plasic minis, unless the intent was never to produce an extensive line of them).
What are Reaper's mistakes (according to me)?
1. Single unit packaging
2. Not mounted on a geometric base
3. Few paint steps
4. Not collectable
5. Visible minis
My take:
1. I like this, even though it drives the price up. Note that some common "group" monsters do come in packs of three.2. Completely agree.
3. I am satisfied by the painting; imo they remain on par with the better D&D minis.
4. I like this.
5. And this.
YMMV. :)
I think barking at Reaper saying they run their business like gamers rather than a businessmen is wrong. I think they are making a concious and smart decision to focus on their metal minis over the ppm. I think they want to do more ppm (ReaperBryan has said so to that effect) the issue is just plain, that it isnt a priority for them. You see metal minis are their bread and butter, and much like Paizo they only have so much staff. So they have the option of take people or resouces from our money maker to try something that may not work or keep in business by making what works and is wanted. Paizo is in the same place with their Aps and all the random things we the customers ask for. They would LOVE to make all the wacky stuff we want (they say so all the time :P) but frankly they already tax their resouces to the maximum as is and there just isnt a time or money budget available. Repaer falls in the same catagory, they live minis plain and simple. Sure they could reuse sculpts, but from what Ive heard plastic mini molds and metal molds are highly different and on a different cost level. Also if they just reused the metal sculpts then why would someone pay 5 or 6 bucks for a metal seoni if they can have the pre painted plastic one for about the same price? It is kind of the same reason Paizo doesnt want to do massive collected volumes of APs, why compete with yourself?
*(Please note I am no way an expert, or affiliated with anyone anywhere in anyway. I am just a fat old grognard of a gamer who is opinionated and often wrong. However, these are my honest opbservations on the subject. Oh yea Get off my lawn and all that...)
Sure they could reuse sculpts, but from what Ive heard plastic mini molds and metal molds are highly different and on a different cost level. Also if they just reused the metal sculpts then why would someone pay 5 or 6 bucks for a metal seoni if they can have the pre painted plastic one for about the same price? It is kind of the same reason Paizo doesnt want to do massive collected volumes of APs, why compete with yourself?
Reaper does currently reuse the sculpts. Obviously they have to use different molds for plastic and metal, but the designs are reused as far as I can tell.
I think barking at Reaper saying they run their business like gamers rather than a businessmen is wrong.
I hope it didn't sound that way. I am just saying that similar to Paizo, Reaper is run by gamers with a passion for the industry and the business savy to pull it off. However, the almighty dollar is not the driving force of Reaper (as told to me by a very senior Reaper person :)
To effectively market PPM's and keep new product coming out and in substancial quantities -- the ONLY way to do that is randomized, non-visible collector sets with rarities. I wish this wasn't so... I really do, but making PPM's is just so expensive, and the initial costs are very significant. It takes a lot of sales until you start to realize a profit on PPM's. They are very high risk -- but marketed correctly, they don't need to be.
I think they are making a concious and smart decision to focus on their metal minis over the ppm. I think they want to do more ppm (ReaperBryan has said so to that effect) the issue is just plain, that it isnt a priority for them.
Yes, this is exactly the case. They have the talented artists and the resources to produce PPM's on par with what WotC did, but they are choosing not to, since that sort of risk taking is not in their business philosophy. (I guess I just wish it was :)
Also if they just reused the metal sculpts then why would someone pay 5 or 6 bucks for a metal seoni if they can have the pre painted plastic one for about the same price? It is kind of the same reason Paizo doesnt want to do massive collected volumes of APs, why compete with yourself?
I believe that metal mini buyers and PPM buyers are looking for 2 very different things, so I don't think they would be competing with themselves. I think the reason I critisized them so heavily is that they have the capability of building a great brand with PPM's but they are not really all the interested, for the reasons you indicated.
I'm still suffering withdrawal that my plasti-crack has been taken away from me and I can't find another supplier. There is a market for plasti-crack. A very big market as WotC identified. I'm just looking for a new supplier and not for someone like Reaper to tease me by just dangling a little in front of me :)
I believe that metal mini buyers and PPM buyers are looking for 2 very different things, so I don't think they would be competing with themselves.
I agree with this. Where I always appreciated a well painted metal mini (a couple of my friends really enjoy painting them), I just don't have the inclination (or talent) for painting to justify it for me to buy a metal mini. Nevermind the assembly that is required sometimes. Another thing I don't want to deal with.
Then there is always the factor of having to be more careful when carrying the metal minis from location to location, having to put them in a container with padding.
And again, that’s just the nature of the beast for metal minis, and don’t look down on those who like them better, they just are not my preference.
I'm still suffering withdrawal that my plasti-crack has been taken away from me and I can't find another supplier. There is a market for plasti-crack. A very big market as WotC identified. I'm just looking for a new supplier and not for someone like Reaper to tease me by just dangling a little in front of me :)
You and me both. :) Where I didn’t buy too many WotC PPM in the later sets, when I heard the line was completely disappearing, I was saddened because I wasn’t going to see more of the actual ‘sets’ of prepainted minis.
I was one of the poster buyers for WotC in regards to DDM. Not only did I buy the minis for the skirmish game, I bought them for our gaming group and to ‘have them all’, or as many as I could get. When a new set came out, I would usually buy a booster case (yes, a case). I am one who actually liked the randomized aspect of the game. Opening each booster box to see what minis I received and if I got that ultra cool rare. Brought me back to my MTG days in buying booster packs to see what cards I got. I was like a kid in a candy store.
So like you, I miss my plasti-crack. And I really hope this 4 Iconic set takes off and if it does, then I’ll keep my fingers crossed to see the 40-60 PPM sets again. :)
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Lisa is a beacon of integrity - so say we all.
Now, back to the minis...
Would it help if we pre-ordered cases of minis? I still wish to keep my subscriptions, but I would be willing to buy in cases rather than little 4 or 6-packs. I'm not a collector, just someone who plays PATHFINDER RPG and would love to see the beasts come to life as minis. If grouping is a valuable way to distribute, and if we can eliminate random, I would be willing to buy large cases to offset production costs. I would be willing to buy multiples, even without the silly randomizations that supposedly lead people to buy more than they normally would.
One ideal way would be to sell sets, so the purchaser knows what they're getting. I don't need a lot of fancy packaging at all, if it would help reduce costs and get more minis. The quality of the minis is key - by quality I mean design and verisimilitude to the bests within PATHFINDER BESTIARY and any other PFRPG sources. While I love the very strong plastic, even softer plastic with good design appeals to me. In short, maybe the community can figure out how to cut costs... and share what they would buy to help make more efficient choices in production.
I probably own thousands of minis - I haven't counted. Some of my rows are 6-12 deep of the same figure. But my point is that I would still purchase PATHFINDER RPG minis without being a "collector". The value is the "gaming value", especially when it comes to those which spark the imagination or bring classic or new PFRPG beasts and people to life. I should note, the majority of my figures I purchased aftermarket - at costs lower than retail. I figure its worth saying that premium prices could be prohibitive, even if I love the items. So whatever new arrangement we can innovate that avoids random, I'm happy to help with.
Gaming on a battlemat/paizo maps etc. has never been easier than with this rule system. Miniatures such as "complete token sets" would be of value as well. Its true that different GMs play PFRPG differently,...
That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.
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I always seem to be in a hurry to answer posts and it always comes out strange. Anyway, as far as random packs go, if they are done right then I have no problem with them. By “done right” I mean (as I have said before) having miniatures that are useful to gamers.
I have seen others talk about the viability (or rather lack thereof) of Adventure Path specific sets. Well, in my opinion, it can be viable if it just includes the Major NPCs while the “regular critters and mooks” can be in the random packs. I don’t see needing a set containing a “gazillion” figures to fill and AP if it is done that way. If I am wrong then please show me how I am.
I know that future figures are only a pipe dream right now but here is what I’d like to see: The next Iconic set to contain: Lem, Seltyiel, Seoni, and Seelah. The third I would be great if it contained: Amiri, Harsk, Lini, and Sajan. Well, you get the picture! This is what I’d like to see ALONG WITH the random minis.
Like many have said…”I too miss the Plasti-Crack”. I am glad that WizKidz is taking up the mantle! Hopefully, the Iconics will sell well enough (actually ,I hope it is a smashing success!!!) to justify further production.
Well I have wasted you time derailed this discussion long enough. Sorry for the rambling. Carry on!
That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.
Given the number of superscribers I see on this site, I think the number of people that have the available funds probably is more than you might think.
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That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.Given the number of superscribers I see on this site, I think the number of people that have the available funds probably is more than you might think.
considering something like 80% of the purchases during DDM's prime were 1/2 case or more at a time, I agree with pres man (I'm looking for the article I read that in now)
considering something like 80% of the purchases during DDM's prime were 1/2 case or more at a time, I agree with pres man (I'm looking for the article I read that in now)That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.Given the number of superscribers I see on this site, I think the number of people that have the available funds probably is more than you might think.
I'd love to see it.
At a time, or over the release period of the set? Given that DDM sets were released 12-16 weeks apart, a half case is really only a booster every couple of weeks (or less).
If it's the latter, it makes it sound as if casual purchasers were the majority.
Casual purchasers don't strike me as the type to buy an expensive mega-set.
considering something like 80% of the purchases during DDM's prime were 1/2 case or more at a time, I agree with pres man (I'm looking for the article I read that in now)That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.Given the number of superscribers I see on this site, I think the number of people that have the available funds probably is more than you might think.I'd love to see it.
At a time, or over the release period of the set? Given that DDM sets were released 12-16 weeks apart, a half case is really only a booster every couple of weeks (or less).
If it's the latter, it makes it sound as if casual purchasers were the majority.
Casual purchasers don't strike me as the type to buy an expensive mega-set.
Considering most people I know who purchase magic cards do it by the box, and boxes make up a majority of my friends magic sales at his FLGS, I do not doubt that to be the case. 1 customer who buys a case = 10 customers who buy a couple packs.
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considering something like 80% of the purchases during DDM's prime were 1/2 case or more at a time, I agree with pres man (I'm looking for the article I read that in now)That may be true for you, but how many people have the ability or willingness to shell out large sums of cash for cases of pre-painted minis? I'd have to say, not too many.Given the number of superscribers I see on this site, I think the number of people that have the available funds probably is more than you might think.I'd love to see it.
At a time, or over the release period of the set? Given that DDM sets were released 12-16 weeks apart, a half case is really only a booster every couple of weeks (or less).
If it's the latter, it makes it sound as if casual purchasers were the majority.
Casual purchasers don't strike me as the type to buy an expensive mega-set.
I wanna say it was a ICDV2 or whatever the industry quarterly magazine was, about the time Blood Wars came out.
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Very excited by this. I'd really like to see a non-random sales model. When I buy minis, I buy them with certain adventures and encounters in mind. I don't need random, I need specific. I tend to buy all my minis individually from the sites that bust open the boxes and sell them individually. But I always notice that the re-sale sites have dozens of certain common minis available and never enough mooks like goblins and orcs. I don't mind paying more for bigger and rarer (i.e., less frequently encountered and, thus, less in demand) critters.
I do the same. It was easier back around 2005 when you could find guys selling lots of 10 orcs at a time on Ebay. I bought a horde of orcs and goblins that way and use them often. I have often wondered why none of the miniature companies ever wised up and realized that there was a market for non-random packages of orcs or goblins. Even if they'd been a brown plastic with no paint, I still would've been buying the little buggers if I could've bought them aplenty.
I do the same. It was easier back around 2005 when you could find guys selling lots of 10 orcs at a time on Ebay. I bought a horde of orcs and goblins that way and use them often. I have often wondered why none of the miniature companies ever wised up and realized that there was a market for non-random packages of orcs or goblins. Even if they'd been a brown plastic with no paint, I still would've been buying the little buggers if I could've bought them aplenty.
Well, for Skeletons and Orcs specifically, Dwarven Forge has pre-painted sets of 12 or so.
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Well, for Skeletons and Orcs specifically, Dwarven Forge has pre-painted sets of 12 or so.
I do the same. It was easier back around 2005 when you could find guys selling lots of 10 orcs at a time on Ebay. I bought a horde of orcs and goblins that way and use them often. I have often wondered why none of the miniature companies ever wised up and realized that there was a market for non-random packages of orcs or goblins. Even if they'd been a brown plastic with no paint, I still would've been buying the little buggers if I could've bought them aplenty.
Those were really fragile. Or at least the ones I got. Nicely done but fragile.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think some of the later "D&D" Heroscape packs were themed "orc" or "goblin." My local game store (Card Kingdom) has a whole wall of these, and while they are far from perfect, some of them are pretty cool (most are DDM repaints), and definitely fit the bill for people looking for "common" mook minis.
Of course, the line is now canceled.
Those were really fragile. Or at least the ones I got. Nicely done but fragile.
Seconded. I had forgotten about those!
They looked great, but in my experience they didn't hold up to even light use.
