First off the Nat. weapons with Haste question.
So as I understand Haste a character with +6/+1 with haste gets a full attack of +6/+6/+1 Right?
So I have a creature that has (numbers are just examples, I don't remember the real values)
Tail +5 AND 2 claws +4 AND bite +7
That would leave a normal full attack as +5/+4/+4/+6 right?
Now what happens when that creature is Hasted? 2 bites? at +6 plus all the other attacks?
Then the Mirror Image..
I have a monster that has Mirror Image as an At Will cast.. Isn't that pretty much invulnerability?
Tail +5 AND 2 claws +4 AND bite +7
The creature gains an additional attack with her primary weapon, normally the bite.
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.
Wrong. See the spell description. There's no mention of manufactured weapons, let alone as a requirement. See; Haste
|
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.Wrong. See the spell description. There's no mention of manufactured weapons, let alone as a requirement. See; Haste
Wrong?
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
|
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.
Says who?
I have a monster that has Mirror Image as an At Will cast.. Isn't that pretty much invulnerability?
No, it still takes a Standard action to cast it. If the creature wants to do some attacking of its own, it won't be able to keep recasting MI each round. Also, it remains vulnerable to area effects and probably to all spells that don't require a physical attack (such as Hold Person?).
I'm with Jadeite on this.
Says who?
The rules.
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.
Do we really need to nerf the monk any further? :(
|
|
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.Do we really need to nerf the monk any further? :(
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
And what monk doesn't use a temple sword or brass knuckles anyway?
|
|
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
Ah, that is a rather unfortunate wording. It doesn't mention manufactured weapons (natural "weapons" are also called weapons), but the "holding" sure sounds like it.
Either way, this could profit from some rewording in the next edition.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.And what monk doesn't use a temple sword or brass knuckles anyway?
If Haste specifically precludes them if they don't, not a lot? Unarmed Strikes count as weapons. Natural weapons ARE weapons. Haste doesn't mention manufactured weapons anywhere. If you want to argue that one isn't 'held', neither is the other.
Whether or not you like brass knuckles is irrelevant.
|
|
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.And what monk doesn't use a temple sword or brass knuckles anyway?If Haste specifically precludes them if they don't, not a lot? Unarmed Strikes count as weapons. Natural weapons ARE weapons. Haste doesn't mention manufactured weapons anywhere. If you want to argue that one isn't 'held', neither is the other.
Whether or not you like brass knuckles is irrelevant.
The question of haste is not the main reason for brass knuckles.
If anything nerfed monks before brass knuckles were introduced, it was the price of an amulet of mighty fists.
Thanks for the input. I would say a natural weapon is "held", so what would we end up with then?
They'd get one additional attack with the natural weapon of their choice. It could be the bite (since it's the highest to hit), but it could be a sting if they have one (and want to use it instead).
If you give a monk with a temple sword in one hand, and a pair of brass knuckles on the other hand a haste, he get's one extra attack at full BAB, he can use the sword, the knuckles, or his feet to kick.
Same with the creature, he picks one natural attack and makes an attack with it at his normal BAB for that attack. Simple, sweet.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.Ah, that is a rather unfortunate wording. It doesn't mention manufactured weapons (natural "weapons" are also called weapons), but the "holding" sure sounds like it.
Either way, this could profit from some rewording in the next edition.
All right. Jadeite has a better case than I thought; I've FAQ'ed his response as a result. Good work?
I'll point out that one doesn't hold brass knuckles, one wears them, if we're going to get extremely fine in our parsing of grammar.
Another way to go about this would be to look to see how the APs and modules treat haste when it comes to natural attacks and monk's strikes. Anyone have any evidence from there?
Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.
Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
If you don't want to believe him, you could also just say you're holding your claws right before you whack someone.
Broken link. It leads me to the front page.
Then the Mirror Image..
I have a monster that has Mirror Image as an At Will cast.. Isn't that pretty much invulnerability?
Close your eyes and have blind fight -- now it's just a 50% miss chance rolled twice. Or simply hit him with AoE spells. True Seeing is nice as well, or blind sight. Blind sense will land you at the same position as having your eyes closed but leave you more situational awareness.
|
|
Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
If you don't want to believe him, you could also just say you're holding your claws right before you whack someone.
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
If you don't want to believe him, you could also just say you're holding your claws right before you whack someone.
So you are saying that a Paizo developer's word doesn't override the book?
That sounds completely backwards.
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).
You're reading the text "any weapon he is holding" in a literal sense. Holding a weapon and wielding a weapon are confusingly switched around in the rules with different semantic meanings. Sometimes holding a weapon means you aren't wielding it (like in your light shield off-hand). In the case of haste, you are wielding it (they both mean the same thing).
So it's not that you're wrong in a literal reading, it's just the same text means different things in different contexts.
|
Tail +5 AND 2 claws +4 AND bite +7
That would leave a normal full attack as +5/+4/+4/+6 right?
I'm curious what kind of monster would have attacks like that?
Usually creatures have Primary attacks which are at their full BAB+STR and secondary attacks at minus five. Having 4 attacks that are scattered around like that is strange.
Now what happens when that creature is Hasted? 2 bites? at +6 plus all the other attacks?
Pick an attack and use it again with no penalty. Ignore the noise about manufactured weapons. That topic was beaten up previously and the developers pretty clearly came out on the side of natural weapons getting an extra attack under haste.
Then the Mirror Image..
I have a monster that has Mirror Image as an At Will cast.. Isn't that pretty much invulnerability?
How is he casting it at will? It should specify there. It's either an Su (Supernatual Ability) or a Sp (Spell-like Ability). Either way look here -> Universal Monster Rules.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
So unless it's listed as a "Constant" Spell Like ability it's a standard action to use. Supernatural abilities are similar but I'll leave it up to you to chase those down. It's in the same section.
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).
Sorry, but "holding" doesn't have any RAW meaning related to weapons. Unless you can point to the PF text that says that natural weapons are not held, then your interpretation is not RAW.
Now, "wielding" has meaning, and includes natural weapons. The most logical reading here is to interpret "holding" to mean "wielding".
Unless you have rules text that disagrees with it, the most direct RAW reading would allow this.
RAI also obviously allows this.
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
If you don't want to believe him, you could also just say you're holding your claws right before you whack someone.
I would think that since this interpretation of RAW hoses any monk not holding a monk weapon so blatantly (you don't hold knucks, you wear them) that would make it a pretty lousy interpretation.
Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.Wrong. See the spell description. There's no mention of manufactured weapons, let alone as a requirement. See; HasteWrong?
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
S'alright...doesn't apply to female characters, phew had me worried there for a minute...
|
|
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).Haste grants you one bonus attack, including natural attacks.Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
If you don't want to believe him, you could also just say you're holding your claws right before you whack someone.
So you are saying that a Paizo developer's word doesn't override the book?
That sounds completely backwards.
Yes. I think James Jacobs is a great designer, but he sometimes makes dubious decisions when it comes to the actual rules. Even Jason Bulmahn does, from time to time.
So, unless it's written in the actual errata or at least in the FAQ, I have little reason to follow their decisions, unless they coincide with my own opinion.
That's not not the spells RAW. And if it's the spell's RAI, they would have fixed it by now (like they did with Vital and Spring Attack).
Just a quick question. Why would everything about you speed up--movement, reflexes, weapon attacks--but not your natural attacks? Is there anything in the description of the spell that supports a literalist reading or is this purely a literalist interpretation?
|
|
Yes. I think James Jacobs is a great designer, but he sometimes makes dubious decisions when it comes to the actual rules. Even Jason Bulmahn does, from time to time.
So, unless it's written in the actual errata or at least in the FAQ, I have little reason to follow their decisions, unless they coincide with my own opinion.
Everyone should run their game how they feel best. However I think with most people Jason's or James' interpretation of a rule is more interesting than yours (or mine, or any other random poster) and if you are aware it's different you should probably mention that.
|
|
S'alright...doesn't apply to female characters, phew had me worried there for a minute...Haste grants no extra attack unless the creature wields a manufactured weapon. It would still gain the bonus on attack rolls, though.Wrong. See the spell description. There's no mention of manufactured weapons, let alone as a requirement. See; HasteWrong?
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
LOL! +1