To skip to the point, does anybody have any insights or theories on how kingdom building would go if none of the buildings produced magic items for the PCs to buy or convert to Build Points?
Basically, I'm part of that subsect of D&D gamers who doesn't like turning something fantastic like magical items into a common enterprise, and I don't like seeing them just popping up on the city market as if the local hedge wizard thought one of his fellow townsfolk would be in need of a flaming battle axe.
My instinct, then, is to just declare buildings don't produce magic items as described in the kingdom building rules and leave it up to PCs to craft their own, consign someone to do it for them, or even quest for ones they've heard legends about.
Because I've heard from a few people who've played Kingmaker that the magic item rules make for a windfall of build points, I feel it would even be beneficial to the game to remove that Easy Street option.
Any thoughts?
You're going to have to watch out then, because the last two modules basically require gobs of BPs and high, high stats to support a largish army and deal with some massive disruptions. Alternatively, you can give the kingdom an outrageous amount of time to grow, making your PCs old when the going gets tough. So, you can have magic-item Wal-marts, Gold Rush California or a TPK at high levels. You pick.
Still, take a look through the archives and the mass combat and Kingdom-building threads in particular, as others have tried what you want to do and they've had some successes with it.
Instead of removing magical items from buildings, simply make the buildings themselves rare. Buildings that produce minor items can be exempt - there's a normal economic need for +1 items and the like and that would be catered for. Buildings that produce a medium item produces two minor items instead - while a building that produces two medium item produces one medium item. Naturally a building that produces a major item now instead produces two medium items. However, buildings that normally allow a medium or major item can now be *commissioned* to produce a medium or major item.
Change the availability of "high end" magic producers like the Black Market to only be available when a town is large enough to support such a place. I'd say once the population reaches 8000 the first "major" item producer is possible, and then another one for every additional 2000 population.
This ruling applies only to normal "organic" cities that grow in a manner that sustains them. It is possible to create buildings that are intrinsically too large at the current city size by paying a monthly maintenance tax of 2 BP per 1000 population that the city is short (that is for 1 building that is out-of-place, increase the tax by 1 BP per 1000 population for each additional building).
Kingdoms would grow much slower. Right now the "Magic Item Economy" accounts for 80% of our kingdoms BP each turn, and we aren't even trying to abuse it (we have balanced cities and only 2 Black Markets). Assuming 1 BP=+5eco, maybe a little less (due to the odds of not getting an appropriate item in the slot);
minor = +10 eco
medium = +40 eco
major = +95 eco
Like the others above me said, adjust your expectation for this and you are fine. But you do need to adjust things, just like in a low magic game where things like DR and magical abilities make some monsters harder to deal with.
Ways of adjusting;
- farms give bp instead of reducing consumption
- have eco buildings provide a higher eco bonus
- longer time (= bigger kingdoms) between modules
- lessen the cost of things (armies, buildings, etc...)
To skip to the point, does anybody have any insights or theories on how kingdom building would go if none of the buildings produced magic items for the PCs to buy or convert to Build Points?
Fantastically well. Having read the horror stories of ridiculous BP-generating kingdoms - and having a bunch of cheesy master-munchkin min-maxers for players - I promptly ditched the entire 'sell kingdom-produced magic items for BP' section of the rules and it's working great.
The kingdom grew a bit more slowly than you might expect, but that's fine. I didn't want a Westcrown-sized economic superpower erupting out of the wilderness in five years. Standing armies were deemed too expensive to maintain, so when they needed some it was a major dramatic event as some PCs rushed to harass & delay the opponent while others scrambled to raise a militia and hire River Kingdom mercenary companies. Fighting a war was a major drain on the economy and the players were watching their bottom line with nail-biting intensity the entire time - the leaders were well aware they could win the war on the battlefield yet still lose it in the counting house. A couple of them were even making plans to liquidate their personal fortunes to donate enough cash to keep the kingdom running.
To skip to the point, does anybody have any insights or theories on how kingdom building would go if none of the buildings produced magic items for the PCs to buy or convert to Build Points?
Basically, I'm part of that subsect of D&D gamers who doesn't like turning something fantastic like magical items into a common enterprise, and I don't like seeing them just popping up on the city market as if the local hedge wizard thought one of his fellow townsfolk would be in need of a flaming battle axe.
My instinct, then, is to just declare buildings don't produce magic items as described in the kingdom building rules and leave it up to PCs to craft their own, consign someone to do it for them, or even quest for ones they've heard legends about.
Because I've heard from a few people who've played Kingmaker that the magic item rules make for a windfall of build points, I feel it would even be beneficial to the game to remove that Easy Street option.
Any thoughts?
Erik Freund had mention that he has worked out a system which replaced magic item sales for special resources ( gold mines, rare herbs, etc. ) which could be mined for a steady income. Sadly he refuses to even respond to inquiries asking to share his houserules.
I am working now on a similar system, but I am not ready yet, since I got to see how much of those special resources I can put into the game, how many are too much and how difficult to find I am going to make them.
I've given my opinion on the matter in other threads, but the crux of it is that even if magic items are completely removed (or at least don't produce BP for the kingdom), there is still ample resources to raise and maintain armies which are required in the later books.
My PCs only earn 0/1/2 BP for minor/medium/major magic items and they already have a standing army only part way through book 4.
The AP assumes that the PCs will raise the equivalent of a CR 11 army to meet the challenges of book 5. This can be done at very little cost if you look up the consumption of the sample armies (say one CR 9 and two CR 7s).
The far bigger problem is that the PCs have too many resources at their disposal. If they can raise armies which total CR 14+ without any consequence, much of book 5 becomes a walk in the park. Even if they can maintain a CR 11 army indefinitely, there's no reason for them to hurry. A war should (and is intended) to be a drain on the kingdom. If it isn't, the point is lost.
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Without the magical item Economy, Armies would be supported thusly:
GENERIC ESTATE ITEM
20 Acre Tennant Farm
POPULATION: 5 - Peasant Family (5)
EXPORT: 2 Tons (4,480lb) Wheat Surplus
IMPORT: 22 Tons firewood/year, Guild Produce
60 Acre Knight's Estate
POPULATION: 10 - Knight (Light Horseman) & Family(4), Servants (5)
EXPORT: 6 Tons Roofing Thatch
IMPORT:45 Tons Firewood/year, Guild Produce
6 &1/2 Acre Bishop's Vineyard
POPULATION: 5 - Servants
EXPORT: 1512 Gallons White Wine
IMPORT: 22 Tons Firewood, 1 Ton Wheat, Guild Produce
1600 Acre Woodlot
POPULATION: 5 - 1 Woodsman, Family (4)
EXPORT: 263 Tons Firewood/year
IMPORT: 1 Ton Wheat/year, Guild Produce
So a 1600 acre woodlot would support up to five Knights estates with firewood. A second Woodlot supports 11 Tennant Farms with a grain surplus supplying both woodsmen, leaving a 20 ton grain surplus which is traded/used to support the Knights in Battle.
So lets say this 115 population 'isolated farming village' works 5.8 square miles of land. and ships its grain to the Guild town where the Bishop governs. This small amount of grain surplus supports 20 families. Nine such rural farming villages support the Guild Town (945 pop) along with 18 more Woodlots supporting it with firewood and would provide the Bishop with an army of 45 Knights. Effectivly two 8-mile Hexes of light wood (one dominated by our Market town). Thats pretty much a Bishop's Estate.
Without the magical item Economy, Armies would be supported thusly:
GENERIC ESTATE ITEM
20 Acre Tennant Farm
POPULATION: 5 - Peasant Family (5)
EXPORT: 2 Tons (4,480lb) Wheat Surplus
IMPORT: 22 Tons firewood/year, Guild Produce60 Acre Knight's Estate
POPULATION: 10 - Knight (Light Horseman) & Family(4), Servants (5)
EXPORT: 6 Tons Roofing Thatch
IMPORT:45 Tons Firewood/year, Guild Produce6 &1/2 Acre Bishop's Vineyard
POPULATION: 5 - Servants
EXPORT: 1512 Gallons White Wine
IMPORT: 22 Tons Firewood, 1 Ton Wheat, Guild Produce1600 Acre Woodlot
POPULATION: 5 - 1 Woodsman, Family (4)
EXPORT: 263 Tons Firewood/year
IMPORT: 1 Ton Wheat/year, Guild ProduceSo a 1600 acre woodlot would support up to five Knights estates with firewood. A second Woodlot supports 11 Tennant Farms with a grain surplus supplying both woodsmen, leaving a 20 ton grain surplus which is traded/used to support the Knights in Battle.
So lets say this 115 population 'isolated farming village' works 5.8 square miles of land. and ships its grain to the Guild town where the Bishop governs. This small amount of grain surplus supports 20 families. Nine such rural farming villages support the Guild Town (945 pop) along with 18 more Woodlots supporting it with firewood and would provide the Bishop with an army of 45 Knights. Effectivly two 8-mile Hexes of light wood (one dominated by our Market town). Thats pretty much a Bishop's Estate.
From where did you get these figures from ?
Best would be link or document for reference...
Fighting a war was a major drain on the economy and the players were watching their bottom line with nail-biting intensity the entire time - the leaders were well aware they could win the war on the battlefield yet still lose it in the counting house.
That sounds exactly like the campaign I'm looking for. Thanks, Troll.
Well, I finalized the version I am going to use in my campaign. Resource hexes will of course be more abundant, but this will hopefully get the players to like exploring the map more enthusiastically after they've founded their kingdom.
Step 1: Eliminate magic item sales for BP completely.
Step 2: Introduce these new ( or changed ) non-city improvements:
Mine (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build a mine on special resource hexes in hills or mountains. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury. Resources which can be mined are: Starmetal (15 BP), Mithral (10 BP), Iron (5 BP), Copper (3 BP), Gold (10 BP), Silver (5 BP) and Gems (15 BP).
Special Resources Camp (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build on special resource hexes a logging camp for rare woods (5 BP) in forests, a fishing camp for rare fish (3 BP) in swamps and rivers, a harvesting camp for rare herbs (3 BP) in plains and swamps. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury.
If I get to run this for a different group (currently playing), I'm definitely going to have farms simply produce 2 BP per turn instead of merely offsetting consumption. Farms are supposed to be rare and precious in the River Kingdoms due to monsters and bandits, any surplus farm production will be gratefully purchased by needy neighbors. There's plenty of cities and towns to trade with just off the edges of the given maps, from Mivon to the gnomish city of Jovvox, even the Iobarian city of Vladmirr if the players are feeling ambitious to head east from the Nomen Hills.
(I'm working to build a map of not just the Stolen Lands but one map sheet on all sides to show just how close those neighbors are, which should help give players an idea of what's out there to trade with / visit / conquer. This isn't helped by the Kingmaker maps being 30 degrees off every single other map put out by Paizo of the surrounding area. Argh.)
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Without the magical item Economy, Armies would be supported thusly:
GENERIC ESTATE ITEM
20 Acre Tennant Farm
POPULATION: 5 - Peasant Family (5)
EXPORT: 2 Tons (4,480lb) Wheat Surplus
IMPORT: 22 Tons firewood/year, Guild Produce60 Acre Knight's Estate
POPULATION: 10 - Knight (Light Horseman) & Family(4), Servants (5)
EXPORT: 6 Tons Roofing Thatch
IMPORT:45 Tons Firewood/year, Guild Produce6 &1/2 Acre Bishop's Vineyard
POPULATION: 5 - Servants
EXPORT: 1512 Gallons White Wine
IMPORT: 22 Tons Firewood, 1 Ton Wheat, Guild Produce1600 Acre Woodlot
POPULATION: 5 - 1 Woodsman, Family (4)
EXPORT: 263 Tons Firewood/year
IMPORT: 1 Ton Wheat/year, Guild ProduceSo a 1600 acre woodlot would support up to five Knights estates with firewood. A second Woodlot supports 11 Tennant Farms with a grain surplus supplying both woodsmen, leaving a 20 ton grain surplus which is traded/used to support the Knights in Battle.
So lets say this 115 population 'isolated farming village' works 5.8 square miles of land. and ships its grain to the Guild town where the Bishop governs. This small amount of grain surplus supports 20 families. Nine such rural farming villages support the Guild Town (945 pop) along with 18 more Woodlots supporting it with firewood and would provide the Bishop with an army of 45 Knights. Effectivly two 8-mile Hexes of light wood (one dominated by our Market town). Thats pretty much a Bishop's Estate.
From where did you get these figures from ?
Best would be link or document for reference...
I calculated them using three descriptions from the Doomsday Book and a book on Agriculture.
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I don't have a problem with the magical items being produced, but I do have an issue with the PCs being able to convert assets that are not technically theirs, into BPs they can use. I'm still analysing the system and have quite a few ideas and ways of tweaking it.
The way how I was looking at addressing this magical item issue was rather than securing BPs by selling MIs, instead such places provide magical services that can partially offset the cost of building certain structures. With an appropriate check/save (mirroring that for minor, medium and mjor items), the PCs manage to convince the magic-users involved to assist in certain endeavours, reducing the BP cost of certain projects by the same amount as if they had sold an MI of the same amount. In this way, I don't have to suddenly allow "ye olde magick shoppes" in my game, yet mechanically the game runs almost exactly the same (except you cannot save the BPs from these endeavours, they must be spent or lost).
At the same time, you still have a range of items in a city that the PCs are more than able to purchase. Thoughts?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I don't have a problem with the magical items being produced, but I do have an issue with the PCs being able to convert assets that are not technically theirs, into BPs they can use. I'm still analysing the system and have quite a few ideas and ways of tweaking it.
The way how I was looking at addressing this magical item issue was rather than securing BPs by selling MIs, instead such places provide magical services that can partially offset the cost of building certain structures. With an appropriate check/save (mirroring that for minor, medium and mjor items), the PCs manage to convince the magic-users involved to assist in certain endeavours, reducing the BP cost of certain projects by the same amount as if they had sold an MI of the same amount. In this way, I don't have to suddenly allow "ye olde magick shoppes" in my game, yet mechanically the game runs almost exactly the same (except you cannot save the BPs from these endeavours, they must be spent or lost).
At the same time, you still have a range of items in a city that the PCs are more than able to purchase. Thoughts?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
From a magic item shop perspective, the magic item shops just provide a mechanism for the existing magic items in cities rules to be implemented. Not all of the magic item "producing" buildings are actually production. Many are just large shopping areas where one could find a magic item. Merchants come in hoping to find a buyer in a large market, and the single large purchase helps drive the ecconomy forward like luxury item sales do now.
The way I handle it is different than the normal rules. I am allowing the players to sell every item slot they have in the city (the check doesn't fail on a 1, to cut down on number of rolls). Item slots do not add straight BP though. Each one adds a bonus to their ecconomy check. Minor +3, Medium +7, Greater +11. The slot produces that, because I assume that a greater slot that only rolls a medium item or a minor slot that rolls nothing would get refilled half-way through the month and sell annother. This makes more sense to me overall because it creates a more obvious direct link between your ecconomy and the magic item sales. I also say that they are not necessarily magic items, but can be art objects or other luxury items. I only roll up what is in the slots when the PCs want to go buy something.
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I've significantly neutered the published rules on selling Magic Items. They earn only about 20% of the BP that the rules are established to do so; but I have put in other ways in which to earn some additional fundage, but still not nearly as much as the campaign would allow itself if left to run amok. So in my campaign, they're probably earning about 25% of what the book would allow, and I will admit it's a bit too slow at this point - but not nearly as much of a problem if it was way too much too fast.
Some of the issues my players are having is just poor planning; no matter how much I've tried to give them direction, they still seem to make decisions based on what is the most "good", but unfortunately not the most pragmatic decision. So they hinder themselves on top of my restricting of the bennies.
To answer the OPs question - the campaing could be done without ever selling magic items, but would be a very slowly developing kingdom, and I think the armies would be close to non-existant. However this can be offset if you add back in SOME measure of other advantages.
For instance -- add in mines and make resources count for a lot more. Make political alliances with neighboring lands a common fixture to the game, benefitting eco via trade. Perhaps roads and rivers provide a larger eco bonus. Have farms provide larger bonuses or flat 2 BP every turn instead of reducing Consumption. Allow for things to be "enhanced" such as technology learned (spend BP on) to make mines/farms/buidings even MORE effective. Imagine learning some irrigation techniques to improve farms. Or imagine learning some other mining techniques, or acquisition via agreement of dwarves to head up certain mines to increase the productivity. Have organizations, religions, etc, offer to split the cost of certain buildings for specific roleplaying storyline reasons - perhaps as reward to doing something for the religion, allowing for these organizations to have some say in policy, have a voice on the council etc.
Finally - have the stores and buildings not provide sales of magical items, but instead crafts of expert quality, and
Instead of 7 BP for a +2 sword for instance, why not 2 BP for some masterwork swords. Why not an armorer that provides BP every month. A luxury store that builds chariots, or coaches. Jewelers, taxidermists that specialize in fantastic creatures, jewelers that make exotic pieces, artists that make grand sculptures or paintings, Stables that breed exotic beasts of burden, or enhanced horses (such as adding the advanced "+2 to all" template to them). Alchemical wares, magic supply shops (components, reagents, bookbindings, ink etc),
Basically swapping out magic items for more conventional but exotic items. And theres many many hexes that could potentially be a "resource" that could be "mined" in some way.
Coachwood tree hex
Fishing hole where snapping turtle was
Rattlecap mushrooms
Fangberries
MoonRadishes
or more exotic
Spidersilk - if they can find a way to harvest it.
To me - so long as the PCs are earning about 5BP/month througout the majority of book 2, it should suffice. Increased to about 10BP/month in book 3, and perhaps 20 in book 4 and 30 in book 5; they should do well.
My group is averaging 4 right now - we're almost through book 2 - like I said earlier, they've been a little slower than I think they should be - a slight increase to 5 or 6 per turn, would put there in a really good sweet spot.
Robert
To sum up, it's doable to cut out the magic item BP income, but could potentially slow the game down quite a bit and it's advisable to provide another, slightly smaller source of BP income as a little booster.
Extra BP from resources such as mines and logging camps are a mundane way to boost the kingdom's monthly BP income while still keeping it low enough to maintain that nail-biting "expensive war" described by Troll which appeals to me.
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To sum up, it's doable to cut out the magic item BP income, but could potentially slow the game down quite a bit and it's advisable to provide another, slightly smaller source of BP income as a little booster.
Extra BP from resources such as mines and logging camps are a mundane way to boost the kingdom's monthly BP income while still keeping it low enough to maintain that nail-biting "expensive war" described by Troll which appeals to me.
Indeed.
You can also provide a bit of a boost to NPC-filled leadership roles contributions to the kingdom.
For instance, ensure good stats, and perhaps even "advance" them peridoically.
Such as increasing their stat modifier by +1 when the PCs reach 6th level and again at 12th or some other equation.
Robert
To sum up, it's doable to cut out the magic item BP income, but could potentially slow the game down quite a bit and it's advisable to provide another, slightly smaller source of BP income as a little booster.
Extra BP from resources such as mines and logging camps are a mundane way to boost the kingdom's monthly BP income while still keeping it low enough to maintain that nail-biting "expensive war" described by Troll which appeals to me.
Indeed.
You can also provide a bit of a boost to NPC-filled leadership roles contributions to the kingdom.
For instance, ensure good stats, and perhaps even "advance" them peridoically.
Such as increasing their stat modifier by +1 when the PCs reach 6th level and again at 12th or some other equation.
Robert
Really, those are drops in the bucket for the older kingsdoms. 6 or so +1s equates to ~30BP in investment. It will do nothing to offset the hundreds of points in economy you will need to offset not having magic items.
Really, those are drops in the bucket for the older kingsdoms. 6 or so +1s equates to ~30BP in investment. It will do nothing to offset the hundreds of points in economy you will need to offset not having magic items.
That's kind of the point. The "hundreds of points in economy" produced by magic items is something that we're trying to remove so as to make the waging of war a challenge rather than a walk in the park.
Quite simply, you don't need the magic item sales to have a successful kingdom or even to wage war. They don't need to be replaced by anything which (IMO) makes for a more realistic kingdom and provides an actual challenge when you get to book 5 of the AP.
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Really, those are drops in the bucket for the older kingsdoms. 6 or so +1s equates to ~30BP in investment. It will do nothing to offset the hundreds of points in economy you will need to offset not having magic items.That's kind of the point. The "hundreds of points in economy" produced by magic items is something that we're trying to remove so as to make the waging of war a challenge rather than a walk in the park.
Quite simply, you don't need the magic item sales to have a successful kingdom or even to wage war. They don't need to be replaced by anything which (IMO) makes for a more realistic kingdom and provides an actual challenge when you get to book 5 of the AP.
Well a more realistic kingdom in a world where magic items and high-magic isn't so common, I suppose.
In the Forgotten Realms on the other hand, I would argue that the standard system of have magic everywhere is par of the course.
Robert
Really, those are drops in the bucket for the older kingsdoms. 6 or so +1s equates to ~30BP in investment. It will do nothing to offset the hundreds of points in economy you will need to offset not having magic items.That's kind of the point. The "hundreds of points in economy" produced by magic items is something that we're trying to remove so as to make the waging of war a challenge rather than a walk in the park.
Quite simply, you don't need the magic item sales to have a successful kingdom or even to wage war. They don't need to be replaced by anything which (IMO) makes for a more realistic kingdom and provides an actual challenge when you get to book 5 of the AP.
Well a more realistic kingdom in a world where magic items and high-magic isn't so common, I suppose.
In the Forgotten Realms on the other hand, I would argue that the standard system of have magic everywhere is par of the course.
Robert
Yeah, but supposedly Golarion is still a bit lower-magic than the FR, with much less high-level NPC's running around. So the question remains, to whom are all those major items going? High CR monsters?
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I too am considering removing or seriously reducing the level of BP from magic items sales.
What about using something like trade agreements with other kingdoms as a source of recurring BP? Or allowing a building like a trading house, that creates recurring BP?
We haven't used the kingdom building rules so far, so a question for those who have- Does anyone foresee problems with subbbing in recurring BPs as a replacement?
I thought this might allow bandits along merchant roads and treaty negotiations to carry more weight in the eyes of the rulers as well.
I too am considering removing or seriously reducing the level of BP from magic items sales.
What about using something like trade agreements with other kingdoms as a source of recurring BP? Or allowing a building like a trading house, that creates recurring BP?
We haven't used the kingdom building rules so far, so a question for those who have- Does anyone foresee problems with subbbing in recurring BPs as a replacement?
I thought this might allow bandits along merchant roads and treaty negotiations to carry more weight in the eyes of the rulers as well.
I would give those trade agreements and such a startup cost, but you could easily replace the BP from magic item sales with something else. I'm not sure what Tem says is true, that you don't even need any BP from the sales, since I am not to those chapters yet, but I think he may very well be correct.
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Here's a simple WIP of what I am currently implementing for my KM campaign (they have just finished part 2) to alleviate somewhat the removal of the magic item economy.
This expands the 'farm' hex development into three different types and adds the Trade edict which allows for the conversion of excess 'farm' resources into monthly BP. Magic item slots remain but can no longer be sold for BP though they can add a small economy bonus.
My group will be play-testing this 'live' in our KM campaign so I highly value any feedback or experiences anyone may have using this system.
Hexes may be developed for resources in the following 3 ways:
1. Farm/Fishery (Plains, Hills, Swamp, or Lake Hex)
2. Logging Camp (Forest Hex)
3. Mine (Hills or Mountain Hex)
All three developments will act in all ways as farms do now (swamp and mountain hexes cost double BP to develop) by reducing kingdom consumption by 2 BPs but for different hexes. Total kingdom consumption will be divided by 3 to represent the need for each of the three sectors:
Example 1
Kingdom Total Consumption = 11
Farm (4), Log (4), Mine (3)
Example 2
Total Consumption = 22
Farm (8), Log (7), Mine (7)
Additionally, I will be adding the Trade edict. The Trade edict represents trade negotiations with neighboring lands and can be set to convert an amount of excess consumption in one resource sector into BP.
Changing the trade edict level will require a successful Loyalty check by the Kingdom Diplomat (adding their ranks in diplomacy to the roll) against the kingdom's Control DC. This represents the breaking/negotiating of trade agreements and lobbying the kingdoms merchants to accept whatever deals are made.
As the amount of trade increases in your kingdom so does the need for safe and secure trade routes! This is represented by the stability penalty to your kingdom as the pressures on security forces mount and crime arises due to the higher volume of trade between your kingdom and other lands.
Edict Level_______Resources Converted______Stability Penalty
None____________________0______________________0
Low_____________________6______________________2
Moderate________________12______________________4
High____________________24______________________8
The impact of the Trade edict also increases as your kingdom grows larger:
1. Baron (one sector may be converted)
2. Duke (two sectors may be converted)
3. King (all three sectors may be converted)
* * * * * *
Magic item slots remain. The ability to sell them for BP has been removed. To cycle through the magic item slots each month the kingdom may choose to roll to 'move' (i.e. sell) an item slot per the original rules for selling magic items though no BPs are earned for doing so. Magic item slots may also be converted into a small economy bonus rather than filling them (+1 for minor, +3 medium, and +5 major) as an option.
The ability for the kingdom leadership to 'take' a magic item from a slot for themselves remains. This automatically incurs 1/2 the normal unrest (as if the check was failed) and shuts off all magic item access purchased by the leadership through the kingdom until a settlement for the item is made either by (1) paying for the item and all returns to normal (2) or negotiating a settlement for half price (though the unrest remains).
Note: For medium and major magic items, this is often one of the few ways (besides discovering items somewhere or crafting them) to access powerful and expensive magic items and it is always a good idea to have these slots and cycle through them.
Mine (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build a mine on special resource hexes in hills or mountains. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury. Resources which can be mined are: Starmetal (15 BP), Mithral (10 BP), Iron (5 BP), Copper (3 BP), Gold (10 BP), Silver (5 BP) and Gems (15 BP).Special Resources Camp (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build on special resource hexes a logging camp for rare woods (5 BP) in forests, a fishing camp for rare fish (3 BP) in swamps and rivers, a harvesting camp for rare herbs (3 BP) in plains and swamps. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury.
Have you found these numbers make up well for the lack of magic item BP? I'm planning on adapting this if it's working well.
Have you found these numbers make up well for the lack of magic item BP? I'm planning on adapting this if it's working well.
Mine (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build a mine on special resource hexes in hills or mountains. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury. Resources which can be mined are: Starmetal (15 BP), Mithral (10 BP), Iron (5 BP), Copper (3 BP), Gold (10 BP), Silver (5 BP) and Gems (15 BP).Special Resources Camp (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build on special resource hexes a logging camp for rare woods (5 BP) in forests, a fishing camp for rare fish (3 BP) in swamps and rivers, a harvesting camp for rare herbs (3 BP) in plains and swamps. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury.
So far it's going well, but we only played one session yet with the system. Kingdom size is about 11 and those extra BP's from mines and rare woods are adding up to 20 extra BP's per month at this time. When we ended the session, it seemed that the group could easily afford one building per month without any danger of going broke. We'll have to see how it works out when more mines and resource camps are added. We will continue to campaign on the 21st of June, so that may take a while yet.
Mine (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build a mine on special resource hexes in hills or mountains. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury. Resources which can be mined are: Starmetal (15 BP), Mithral (10 BP), Iron (5 BP), Copper (3 BP), Gold (10 BP), Silver (5 BP) and Gems (15 BP).Special Resources Camp (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build on special resource hexes a logging camp for rare woods (5 BP) in forests, a fishing camp for rare fish (3 BP) in swamps and rivers, a harvesting camp for rare herbs (3 BP) in plains and swamps. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury.
If I am reading this right, my 1st thought is those numbers are a bit high. To get a Major Item (worth 15BP) you must invest at least 56BP in a Black Market + 2 houses. Then you have a chance each month that you get a "worthless" item or fail the Econ roll to sell, or you can spend 8BP to get 15BP per month for a Gem Mine. I like the basic idea, but IMHO, too many BP for too little investment.
If I am reading this right, my 1st thought is those numbers are a bit high. To get a Major Item (worth 15BP) you must invest at least 56BP in a Black Market + 2 houses. Then you have a chance each month that you get a "worthless" item or fail the Econ roll to sell, or you can spend 8BP to get 15BP per month for a Gem Mine. I like the basic idea, but IMHO, too many BP for too little investment.
I wondered that. My initial instinct was to have a Silver Mine be 1 BP and a Gold Mine produce 2 BP. Then I saw these numbers and figured mine were waaaay too low. Maybe somewhere in the middle? Say 3 BP for Silver and 6 for Gold?
If I am reading this right, my 1st thought is those numbers are a bit high. To get a Major Item (worth 15BP) you must invest at least 56BP in a Black Market + 2 houses. Then you have a chance each month that you get a "worthless" item or fail the Econ roll to sell, or you can spend 8BP to get 15BP per month for a Gem Mine. I like the basic idea, but IMHO, too many BP for too little investment.
Mine (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build a mine on special resource hexes in hills or mountains. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury. Resources which can be mined are: Starmetal (15 BP), Mithral (10 BP), Iron (5 BP), Copper (3 BP), Gold (10 BP), Silver (5 BP) and Gems (15 BP).Special Resources Camp (8 BP): Instead of building a farm hex, you can build on special resource hexes a logging camp for rare woods (5 BP) in forests, a fishing camp for rare fish (3 BP) in swamps and rivers, a harvesting camp for rare herbs (3 BP) in plains and swamps. This provides a fixed amount of BP per month into your kingdom’s treasury.
Its offset by the number of mines that you can actually make. Late game it will end up producing fewer BP, since you can have 1 black market/city. It will speed up the early game alot though. Since you don't need to worry about BP/month until armies start geting involved (unless your players are withdrawing rediculous ammounts), you will likely be in about the same position as if you go with magic items.
By comparison to magnusn's group, my group is 1/2 way through RRR, is size 11, and is making ~10BP/turn.
Our Houserule on special resources is you can "mine" them (mine, fishing camp, farm plants, logging camp, etc...). It costs 4 BP and gives +3 Econ.
I'm thinking of doing a similar thing with magic sales in a Serpent Skull/KM mashup I'm doing. Rather than granting BP, it grants a bonus to the Economy check to generate income, +2, +8, +15. Effectivly this nerfs the sales to 1/5th the value in BP, but provides a bonus to guarantee the generate income check. This is also balanced by cuts in the costs for troops. This is relevant to the OP as this puts the magic market mechanic more in the background - there is a magic market out there and it's highs and lows affect the larger economy, and the treasury can see a benefit from that, but not as overtly as individual magic item sales going right into the king's coffers as the primary source of the nations GDP.
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In my game, magic items cannot be sold for BP. Period. PCs may still buy them with GP if they wish. This gives a one-time bonus to Econ equal to +1 per 1k of GP. This is a concession to "it had to have some sort of impact", without said impact being very deep.
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Instead, I have special resource points. They work kinda like this:
It costs 2, 4, or 8 BP to develop the point (same as building a farm on plains, hills, or "special"). This makes it so that you can use the resource point in spring->autumn. (I have special winter rules in my game.)
Then it requires a DC 25 Economy check to extract d6 BP from a resource point. Eventually, the resource point starts to run low on resources (you have to dig deeper), and I simulate that by bumping up the DC by 5 or 10. So, eventually the mine runs too deep to be feasible, and the PCs have to find new resource points.
When I say "eventually" they run dry: this is total GM ad-hoc-ery. The mine runs dry when it's time for the PCs to start exploring for more mines.
If this is ever not enough BP output, then I will declare that the PCs have struck "the motherload" and the mine will begin outputting at 2d6 (or 3d6).
Yes, it's very ad-hoc (but aren't all the rolls on the event table as well?). It's designed to be simple, and let me keep my hand firmly on the tiller at all times, so I can guide things if they start to get out of whack.
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Special winter rules (if you're curious, this is largely unrelated to the above):
- Winter events are hard. If you get a "good" result on the table, I reroll it once. If the second result is still good, it stays.
- Winter economy sucks. Divide your Econ result by 10 (instead of 5) to determine BP earned.
- Winter operations are hard. Resources points don't produce in winter, unless you pay the construction cost again (ie doubling the overal cost), then it works for all 12 months of the year, but even then, it's at a +10 DC to the Econ check.
- Adventuring in winter is hard. If the PCs try and "go on quests" I smack them down through various means. However, if all they do is sit at home, I reward them with a few skill points, a nonoptimum feat, a magic item, or some social boon (their choice) - to represent the time spent indoors.
- Yes, these are inspired from the Pendragon rules. Great game.
That's... by far more complex than what I did. :p But thanks, that sounds like an awesome system. I think I'll stay with my (well, essentially the idea came from you) system and see what happens. Can't be worse than the magic item economy min-maxing and also, in this case I control how many special resources there even are on the map.
I'm thinking of doing a similar thing with magic sales in a Serpent Skull/KM mashup I'm doing. Rather than granting BP, it grants a bonus to the Economy check to generate income, +2, +8, +15. Effectivly this nerfs the sales to 1/5th the value in BP, but provides a bonus to guarantee the generate income check. This is also balanced by cuts in the costs for troops. This is relevant to the OP as this puts the magic market mechanic more in the background - there is a magic market out there and it's highs and lows affect the larger economy, and the treasury can see a benefit from that, but not as overtly as individual magic item sales going right into the king's coffers as the primary source of the nations GDP.
I did some cost ballancing the other day for this method. I am using it too. I found that 2/4/8 or 2/5/9 bring the large magic item production buildings more in line with other buildings, assuming a +1 bonus costs ~3 BP. I was running it at 3/7/12 and decided to tone it down some after looking at the cost effectiveness of some of the larger buildings.
edit: To be clear, 2/4/8 brings them more in line with the target, but I am running with 2/5/9 because I felt like the larger buildings needed more. I am also letting the players attempt to sell all magic items in a district instead of just 1.
(snip) Special winter rules (if you're curious, this is largely unrelated to the above):(snip)
Yes, these are inspired from the Pendragon rules. Great game.
Nice to know I'm not the only person out there borrowing from it :)