|
I myself favor fluff over crunch. Sure, crunch is important, but optimizing characters, to me, just kills some of the feel of an organic, real thing. Sure, that optimized fighter will kick a little more ass than an un-optimized, fluffed up one, but the fluffed up one will be much more fun, because he will have flaws, and be different.
When somebody brings me a lvl10 character, perfectly optimized in every way, and i ask him about the character's name, and he is silent for ten minutes, that character, to me is not a character but a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper.
What is your opinion>? What do you favor? Fluff or crunch?
It really depends.
If it's something related to a published or established homebrew setting, I like fluff supported by crunch and crunch that makes sense with (and it's eventually limited by) fluff.
A symbiotic relationship of sorts between the two elements.
If it's a generic ruleset, I like a large amount of crunch with minimal fluff, and a cheat sheet full of boxes to tick off, selecting which options to keep and which to discard.
The fluff - necessary both to develop a gaming setting and a good PC - is afterwards fully in the hands of the GM and the players alike.
|
Again, people on this boards tend to take things too literaly sometimes. I guess it's normal, after all, none of you know me, you only have my posts to go on. Well, let's answer.
Or maybe they can find a GM that is more inline with their goals and likes for a RPG. No reason for a player to stop playing RPGs merely because some GM has their own preferred method.
In fact, I am always sad to learn of an RPG player that is turned off from these games by a over-zealous GM who has their own true way.
I didn't actually mean that they should stop playing. I know it "sounded" like that, but i did not mean it. And as i said before, i am willing to work with my players, even outside of sessions to help them make their characters more flavorful and interesting.
Thankfully, i never turned off a player from an rpg to this day.Right here. You didn't say "If I'm the GM, they better roleplay or find a different GM." You said "If I'm GM, they better roleplay or play another game entirely."
Again, too literal. What i meant is that they better roleplay or find a game in which nobody will be bothered by them just rolling dice and yawning while people rp.
And that's fine as a personal preference. But you need to understand that your attitude, whether you've noticed it or not, goes well beyond the point of personal preference into One True Way territory.
Not really. When i am GM, i expect a certain amount of commitment and roleplay, because i invest hours into preparing the game so that they can play fictional characters in a fictional world and have fun while doing it. I am not saying that all my players should be theater level performers, but should at least try to act out their characters and take their personalities as something important. I tell that to all my players beforehand. When i play with other GMs i do not accost other players on not roleplaying. It annoys me, yes, but if the GM has no problem with it, neither do i. Every GM has a right to demand not using a specific alignment or class, or to demand more or less roleplaying.
This is, of course, another problem that I hadn't even touched on yet. You clearly believe that a player who spends very little time on his background is lazy, no matter how much time he spends working on the mechanical side of his character. I bet, though, that you don't call players lazy when they spend a ton of time on their character's back story but very little time on the mechanical side of the character.
Putting effort into crunch but not into fluff is, to you, lazy. Putting effort into fluff but not into crunch is, to you, probably not lazy. Are you starting to see how calling it "lazy" might not actually be accurate at all, and how you are passing judgment on someone else's personal (and unrelated, apparently) qualities because they have preferences that differ from your own?
You cannot spend too much time working on the crunch part. And yes, they are lazy. Mechanical stuff are all there. In three-four big books. You just have to flip through them or type in a page number in your pdf reader. Coming up with a background takes effort, time and actual imagination.
Oh, if a player doesn't have everything they need written on their sheet or some notes because they didn't wanna bother, yes they are also lazy. They should spend as much time as they need on both aspects of their character. They should put effort in both.
The rest of your players' fun will not be killed by a shy player who is more comfortable tweaking his character mechanically than he is deciding exactly which noble lineage his magical elf is descended from. That player's fun, however, will be killed, without a doubt, if you send him packing in a misguided attempt to safeguard an imagined, precious, inviolate immersion.
Did you see me saying shy player? No. If he's new, of course i'll give hem breathing room. And talk to him about roleplay and why doesn't he do it. And, yes the fun can be killed very easily by a player not roleplaying. Especially if there is a tense scene at the king's court and we are all so into it at the moment. Every player is enjoying the scene immensely, except for one player who twiddles his thumbs and looks at the ceiling, starts browsing the web on his phone or listens to music. And when asked why isn't he participating says that he is bored by our acty-talk and that we should go kill something. Heck yeah i will send that player packing in an instant.
Stuff
I'll take nothing literally, and give only my impressions of the concepts you've been offering.
It seems to me your players are getting bored. Perhaps those players aren't meant to be in your campaigns.
Also it doesn't appear that you're very willing to adapt your playstyle to fit your players. Why should they always adapt to yours?
In any single GM's campaign, theirs is the One True Way. I'd hope that most of us would adapt to suit players, but given how much work GMing is you're entitled to GM in the style which you like. If you end up with no players, well, you might have to come to the conclusion that yours is the One True Way in the way that Xtianity was the One True Way in early Imperial Rome.
Players who have never read the rules and rely on others to tell them what their character can do irritate me, as do players who try to help crunch-light players optimise themselves, as do players who can't tell you what their character does in his spare time and just don't get that they might want to spend some of their recently acquired loot on going shopping for clothes instead of p@mping their magic sword. Actually, a lot of different sorts of players irritate me. It's a wonder anyone ever lets me sit behind the screen.
Fluff, definitely. Although that doesn't stop me planning my feat and spell acquisitions six levels in advance.
|
|
StuffI'll take nothing literally, and give only my impressions of the concepts you've been offering.
It seems to me your players are getting bored. Perhaps those players aren't meant to be in your campaigns.
Also it doesn't appear that you're very willing to adapt your playstyle to fit your players. Why should they always adapt to yours?
Nope, they aren't...most of them bother me to play more often then once a week. I'd like that, but i can't prepare that much stuff in two or three days. Guys who stare at the ceiling and look up stuff on the web, get the axe from my players faster then they get the axe from me. They just don't call them to the next session or tell them not to come. We axed four players like that last year.
I am willing to GM a slaughterfest if the players want that. But, if all of them, save one want to rp more and fight less, but he wants to kill stuff, well, that player has no place in that game because he'll get bored and will annoy others to amuse himself. I'd rather avoid that and have fun with one less player.
And, they should adapt to mine because I'm the GM and because i tell them what style of game it is going to be before the first session. If they have issue with that, they can tell me before the session. Because i can't change the whole campaign in 5 minutes, if they suddenly remember that they don't want that style of play.
How about we start by not using the loaded word Fluff which can imply ephemeral, or unnecessary and use the word Cloud or Flavor or something like that.Well, it's the word for it. We can try teach people use new words for it, but that will be an uphill struggle.
Anyway, it could be worse: They could call the guys who like the ephemeral stuff "fluffers".
OMG THAT'S SO WRONG LOL
And yes, they are lazy. Mechanical stuff are all there. In three-four big books. You just have to flip through them or type in a page number in your pdf reader. Coming up with a background takes effort, time and actual imagination.
This is the sort of response I would expect to hear from someone who has never really gotten into char-op. Working out effective synergies, scouring books for the most effective options, coming up with a laser-sharp mechanical focus for your character - these are all aspects of character optimization that take effort, time, and actual imagination.
I mean, do you not realize that by saying "Coming up with a background takes effort, time and actual imagination," you are implying that coming up with an effective character - mechanically - does not take effort, time or actual imagination? And that saying this to a board full of people who have engaged in char-op makes you look a little silly, because we all know how inaccurate that is?
By the way, coming up with a character background can be as easy as flipping to a page in a book. Every time you characterize char-op as being lazy, effortless, or lacking in creativity, that can be just as easily turned around and pointed at the character-fluff-development that you love.
I like crunch - but I like *fluffy* crunch the most. Good examples are the three fighter archetypes in the Inner Sea Primer.
|
|
And yes, they are lazy. Mechanical stuff are all there. In three-four big books. You just have to flip through them or type in a page number in your pdf reader. Coming up with a background takes effort, time and actual imagination.This is the sort of response I would expect to hear from someone who has never really gotten into char-op. Working out effective synergies, scouring books for the most effective options, coming up with a laser-sharp mechanical focus for your character - these are all aspects of character optimization that take effort, time, and actual imagination.
I mean, do you not realize that by saying "Coming up with a background takes effort, time and actual imagination," you are implying that coming up with an effective character - mechanically - does not take effort, time or actual imagination? And that saying this to a board full of people who have engaged in char-op makes you look a little silly, because we all know how inaccurate that is?
By the way, coming up with a character background can be as easy as flipping to a page in a book. Every time you characterize char-op as being lazy, effortless, or lacking in creativity, that can be just as easily turned around and pointed at the character-fluff-development that you love.
Really...look up a thread in the general discussion called classed drow stats and look up two characters that are level 20 that i made...both in under 30 minutes...maybe 40. And they are pretty optimized...not laser sharp but pretty well. To most people, it is much easier to do math then to write a background.
I'm a writer, so it isn't too much of a problem for me to come up with a good backstory in ten minutes. Most of my friends/players however aren't blessed with too much of an imagination. Trust me, for them it is very difficult to write a backstory. They all find it much easier to make characters, because they are all math oriented people.Now, to clarify, i have nothing against optimisation for optimisation's sake...i do it myself for fun and discussion. What i am against however is optimisation getting in the way of a good story. Of good roleplay.
What i really hate is when i say that i will run a combat lite game which will mostly feature roleplay, and then one of the players comes with a meat grinder who communicates in grunts and whines. No thanks.
Your final paragraf is completely true, but from where i stand, almost all the people i game with (over 40, not at the same time of course) have problems with coming up with fluff. Crunch is easy compared to that to them.
To clarify, all you people who prefer optimisation, there is nothing wrong with that. Have fun, and i apologize if i offended you. But that is just not the way i game, and i do not run games for optimizers...sorry.
|
|
I banned point buy a long time ago. We go 4d6 drop the lowest, a single reroll if the roll is abysmal, but you MUST keep the second roll even if worse.
No thanks on the traveller, i prefer PF.
AS for classes, they can play whatever they want, as long as they have a backstory to back that character up.
|
I much prefer Fluff to Crunch I dont want to get bogged down in rules. I love having a rules book to follow but I love the idea of taking a world and making it your own. Maybe it's the difference between older gamers and newer ones. Roleplaying right. Interesting backgrounds, a reason for you to be with your party, and creating that living breathing character that you are emotionally invested in cause he's like that model you worked on when you were smaller and invested the time and effort into it. Dont get me wrong as a DM Ive had to adapt to a party full of rules lawyers and that made for a great challenge too. The idea of giving a wolrd and a fantasy the living breathing aspects of life...now there's the love.
I like both, as long as it is not cheese, but I don't like when one is used at the expense of the other, as both can be abused.
If your cheese is crunchy, then it might be time to throw it out.
I like both, as long as it is not cheese, but I don't like when one is used at the expense of the other, as both can be abused.If your cheese is crunchy, then it might be time to throw it out.
A good, well-aged English-style farmhouse cheddar ought to have slightly crunchy bits to it.
A good, well-aged English-style farmhouse cheddar ought to have slightly crunchy bits to it.
I do believe that you sir, are the first person I've seen on this board refer to a cheese as "good".
A good, well-aged English-style farmhouse cheddar ought to have slightly crunchy bits to it.I do believe that you sir, are the first person I've seen on this board refer to a cheese as "good".
Are you kidding! Cheese is the PPEW Food. I am becoming more enamored of Italian goat cheeses as I get older.
Cheese is the PPEW Food.
Sorry, my acronym-fu is weak... I have NO idead what PPEW is...
I am becoming more enamored of Italian goat cheeses as I get older.
I appreciate a good cheese, don't get me wrong... But if we were to equate the cheese usually referenced on these boards to edible cheeses, it'd more likely be a Limburger, or Head Cheese.
I do believe that you sir, are the first person I've seen on this board refer to a cheese as "good".
That's because this board is full of Kraft Singles.
Cheese is the PPEW Food.Sorry, my acronym-fu is weak... I have NO idead what PPEW is...
I am becoming more enamored of Italian goat cheeses as I get older.
Mary Poppins: Practically Perfect in Every Way
I appreciate a good cheese, don't get me wrong... But if we were to equate the cheese usually referenced on these boards to edible cheeses, it'd more likely be a Limburger, or Head Cheese.
LOL
The Fluff is the amazing piece of art that we call the body of the Camaro, the Crunch is the burbling beast under the hood.
Its yin-yang baby, they both need to coexist in harmony.
From a developer I am happy with a lot of crunch, as that becomes the chasis over which we can build our layers of fluff and know that there is actual functionality. Fluff books are also nice.
What I am cautious of, however, is rules bloat.
I am rather fond of when both come together seamlessly, each supporting the other.
OMG! at last common sense. One does not need to be exclusive of the other by any means.
|
Cheese is the PPEW Food.Sorry, my acronym-fu is weak... I have NO idead what PPEW is...
I am becoming more enamored of Italian goat cheeses as I get older.Mary Poppins: Practically Perfect in Every Way
I appreciate a good cheese, don't get me wrong... But if we were to equate the cheese usually referenced on these boards to edible cheeses, it'd more likely be a Limburger, or Head Cheese.LOL
The reason cheese is PPEW is that cheese has morphine in it.
The reason cheese is PPEW is that cheese has morphine in it.
That is really cool to know and makes sense on the child mother relationship angle. Thanks for the article.
See, the title of this thread made me think it was about crunch (rules) and fluff (flavor text).
Instead, I see it about optimization. Power gaming. Rules lawyering.
I'm fond of crunch. Crunch gives my fighter weapon training and bonus feats. More crunch gives me more feats to pick from. It gives me hit points, and skills and everything else I do in the game.
I'm fond of fluff. Fluff gives me ideas, stories and in some cases, lists of things that I don't need to come up with myself, like ship names, or fancy meals.
I'm not too big on high levels of optimization. I'm at that level where I usually pick Str as a high or second high stat on fighters, but that's about as far as it goes. I'm not going to make a weapon choice based on its DPR.
But none of that has anything to do with whether I feel fluff or crunch is more important. It's something completely different.
I don't like it when people (usually my players) get locked into a box of "this is the only possible choice of actions." I like them to improvise and take non-optimal actions in combat to make it more fun and cinematic. I don't care to hear that 'we don't have enough wealth to fund X non-optimal magic item'. At the same time, the guy who pees in the corner of the throne room because 'his character would do it' is equally as stupid and disruptive to the game.
Crunch, fluff...both are needed or you don't have a game. Fun is the one factor I feel is indispensable to the game.
The Fluff is the amazing piece of art that we call the body of the Camaro, the Crunch is the burbling beast under the hood.
Its yin-yang baby, they both need to coexist in harmony.
^This
Coming up with a mechanically sound character isn't that difficult; just stick with a core class all the way and rock hard. Coming up with character who's made all the right choices, at all the right times, takes a lot of reading and comprehension. Same thing applies to a character's background. It's not hard to come up with a name and pick an alignment. It takes a lot more time to understand what that alignment means and how it effects the kind of choices you'll make, and why.
As Shifty, and many others have said, crunch and fluff go hand-in-hand.
BTW - to all you optimizers who read the books and scour 'em for every last advantage, my hat is off to ya. I respect you guys a lot. The mechanical aspect is a huge part of this game and shouldn't be ignored.
|
|
BTW - to all you optimizers who read the books and scour 'em for every last advantage, my hat is off to ya. I respect you guys a lot. The mechanical aspect is a huge part of this game and shouldn't be ignored.
I call that being a munchkin...why do their characters have to have every last advantage? This is not freaking wow or any other mmo. This is a tabletop RPG.
Really...look up a thread in the general discussion called classed drow stats and look up two characters that are level 20 that i made...both in under 30 minutes...maybe 40. And they are pretty optimized...not laser sharp but pretty well. To most people, it is much easier to do math then to write a background.
Actually generating mechanics are not as easy as you make it sound. The temple guardian has a low will save and reflex save is not all that good either.
It seems as though you did not factor in the ability scores for leveling.The sorcerer also has low will saves. The spell selection is decent though.
Optimization does not get in the way of RP or a good story. As I always say they are not at opposite ends of the spectrum. Everybody optimizes. That is not the same as powergaming.
PS:How long it takes to create a character also depends on how much you have to look rules up, do you have something like herolabs, what the class is and many other factors.
I will never understand the attitude of flavor vs crunch as if people have to choose one or the other.
|
|
Actually generating mechanics are not as easy as you make it sound. The temple guardian has a low will save and reflex save is not all that good either.
It seems as though you did not factor in the ability scores for leveling.
The sorcerer also has low will saves. The spell selection is decent though.Optimization does not get in the way of RP or a good story. As I always say they are not at opposite ends of the spectrum. Everybody optimizes. That is not the same as powergaming.
PS:How long it takes to create a character also depends on how much you have to look rules up, do you have something like herolabs, what the class is and many other factors.
I will never understand the attitude of flavor vs crunch as if people have to choose one or the other.
Well, he can't be good at everything. I did factor the leveling abilities, i just spread them over what i considered important abilities. And the saves are as high as they go without ioun stones and feats.
I don't use herolab i make stuff by flipping through two books and have one or two more open on my pc...
Also i never said one had to choose one. Without fluff, crunch would be boring. Without crunch, fluff wouldn't make sense. I just asked which one do you favor. Do you see fluff as more important or crunch?
|
|
as far as flavor goes, I bought the 2e Forgotton Reals box set & 3e Livig Grayhawk Gazzetteer both for full price. No regrets but I am not buyng fluff books again for only fluff, not at full price. Bought the Golarion hardcover when I found a damaged one at 1/2 off while the store was gong out of busness. Bought 3e FR settng when I found it @ 1/2 off. Bought a lot of 3e Eberron fluff books at dscont at Boarders, which does not sell soft cover Pazo books so I can`t justfy buyng them. They don`t accept ther coupons on special orders if I wanted to buy Pazo soft covers from Boarders. Bought all three hardcover CRB, APG, UM for full prce at local gamestore. Not nterested in buyng new settng hard cover @$50 & the crunch inside is not good enough to justfy the $10 pdf though I am leanng more and more towards convertng to pdf for huge savng and likly would if I had a laptop. Worst part is most have some crounch but LG gaz had none at all. I rarely ever used it and never actually needed it. My $ s mostly for crunch
BTW - to all you optimizers who read the books and scour 'em for every last advantage, my hat is off to ya. I respect you guys a lot. The mechanical aspect is a huge part of this game and shouldn't be ignored.I call that being a munchkin...why do their characters have to have every last advantage? This is not freaking wow or any other mmo. This is a tabletop RPG.
So reading the rules and making value assessments is tantamount to being a munchkin? Hmm, I don't think that term means what you think it means.
To me, a Munchkin, in the realm of Pathfinder and D&D, is someone who always wants more of everything. It's not that he's read the rules and worked out a solid plan for the future. Oh no, the Munchkin says "hey, I found a loophole in Vow of Poverty! See, it says items just have to be simple. My +5 bracers just look like bits of leather, so that qualifies!" That's the Munchkin attitude at it's finest.
A good optimizer recognizes VoP, or Toughness, or whatever, for what it is and moves on. Optimizing is not Munckining.
BTW - to all you optimizers who read the books and scour 'em for every last advantage, my hat is off to ya. I respect you guys a lot. The mechanical aspect is a huge part of this game and shouldn't be ignored.I call that being a munchkin...why do their characters have to have every last advantage? This is not freaking wow or any other mmo. This is a tabletop RPG.
Okay, now I'm curious. What is it about WoW that justifies "having every last advantage" where D&D does not?
I play WOW myself and people can go overboard on crunch even in that game as well, to the point where they make it into a job instead of an avenue to have fun in.
Right, I mean, there are guilds aimed at server firsts who really know their stuff and gem/forge/spec for the ideal combination, but those are not your average WoW player. Your average WoW player probably doesn't even know what his hit cap is.
Crunch. I make up my own fluff to fit my settings. There's nothing wrong with fluff, because often times it is fun to read, and I've yoinked many an idea from it. But it's not a necessity for me.
I started the thread and i am not american...not only americans think they ale always right...most people do.
While true, the difference between America and many other parts of the world is that large segments of American culture actively encourage that sort of black-and-white attitude.
I started the thread and i am not american...not only americans think they ale always right...most people do.While true, the difference between America and many other parts of the world is that large segments of American culture actively encourage that sort of black-and-white attitude.
And punish, mock, belittle and ruin attitudes that run counter to it.