I recently told my DM about the create demiplane spell that came out in Ultimate magic, telling him how you could create your own plane and add to it with higher level spells and make it perminate.
His response? "Thats broken as hell!"
His argument is that a player should not be allowed to do so because that is something that deity's can do and there are rules for that in the Deities and Demigods and that you need Divine Rank to be able to do that and the fact that he cannot screw with my things if i put them on a my own demiplane and he cannot challenge me if i have it. His complaint as well is that I could just go on creating more and that the money cost of the permanency is negligible considering the wealth that i could accrue at that level. He also commented that the nine hells were apart of the astral see so if i create one on there that they can see it and would just attack it because "hey i want to be master of that plane too" How do the planes work? If you are on the astral sea can you see the other planes? I thought that the only way to even know of a plane was to be told of it and try to planeshift there. failing that finding a gate that leads there. Is there any other way for something else to get into my demi plane baring these methods?
Another concern i told him that Paizo does not equal wizards of the coast so Deities powers are not stated out and it does not mean that creating demiplanes is only there province. His response was that since they have not printed a Epic level handbook and not made a manual of planes or Deities and Demigods. That since it only goes to 20 levels that the spell is fine if the game only ever goes up to 20 levels. And that it is BS if i have plane at 17th when that should be an Epic Level Ability. He is going to use those 3.5 rules. In which case Creating a Demiplane is only something Gods can do and will be removing this spell from the game.
Now i'm an 11th level cleric with leadership, i have a small keep from the deck of many things (DM ruled that the keep doesn't have to be put down immediately, but instead i get a card with a keep on it and it will appear when i put the card down at the spot i want) and So the idea of creating my own demiplane for my keep and for the adventuring party to return to between adventures is HUGE for me and the fact that he's removing it is frustrating.
Can anyone help me out here? Is this spell OP? is plane creation only for the gods?
I'd appreciate any comments, especially any from the development staff.
I think terms like 'broken' and 'overpowered' are being tossed around waay too much these days.
Create Demiplane is, mechanically speaking, a glorified Rope Trick. It doesn't really do anything. It doesn't overpower a character who picks it, or 'break' the game in any way (far as I can tell, anyway).
Now, whether the existence of such a series of spells in the hands of mortals make cosmologically sense, that's something else entirely. Not to mention rather setting specific. A GM is perfectly within his rights to say that this is an ability that only gods have access to in his game setting, but that doesn't equal broken or overpowered.
Creative Director
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We've got several established in Golarion canon examples of mortal wizards creating demiplanes. The Runelords did it. Nex was a master of it. And now, finally, in this book we have rules that show HOW these folks did it.
Create demiplane is hardly overpowered. It's a HIGH level spell, and if you want to make your (relatively small) demiplane permanent, you'll be spending over 20,000 gp to do so. There's a lot of restrictions to what you can and can't do with this spell (and its lesser and greater versions). Whether or not it's "broken" is something that each GM needs to decide for his/her own game... but I'd hope they'd wait until they have a chance to actually read how the spells work before they make that decision!
As far back as 3rd ed. creating your own demiplane has not been a "deity only" thing. It is a 9th level spell in the Epic Level Handbook (meaning any wizard of 17th level or higher could use it) and and was reprinted as a 9th level spell in 3.5 It is possible to get into the plane with plane shift or similar magic, it would take several castings to be able to hold a keep, and there are spells that could be used to find it. It does provide benefits, but I, as both a (former) DM and a (former) player (I'm between campaigns right now) see it as fair and balanced.
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Even in 3.0, there was the Genesis spell, (9th I believe). As far as I remember off the top of my head, it was a permanent demiplane with less cost, so this is actually more restricted.
Personally, I like it. I want more ability to jump, adventure, or explore other "worlds", and there are a lot of ways to get into said plane. In an Epic game I was in, the DM handed out an artifact from Vile Darkness that wound up infiltrating out HQ. Random mishaps with Planeshift or similar magic, or the ever fun Portible Hole + Bag of Holding + other coolness. Or an enemy that tracks/studies their prey, (ie the PC's). Or Ravenloft is a Beyotch!!! Or a deity comes a-knocking. Or you lose you set of planer keys. Somebody turns traitor.
There are ways around it.
Besides, it really isn't that much different from lower level spells like Magnificient Mansion, Rope Trick, Wish/Miracle, Timestop, Teleport, etc. . . It just allows a lot more RP coolness.
I think this sounds pretty cool, too. Regardless of the actual mechanics of it (I don't have the book yet), being able to create demiplanes is an awesome way to cap off a high-level spellcaster's career. Even if such a spell may not be the most efficient way to use your spellcasting powers, creating a demiplane is certainly among the most fun and creative ways to flaunt those powers to the world :)
The spell genesis and the more balanced psionic genesis existed in 3.0 and 3.5 both, and are part of the system reference document. Genesis was first printed in the Manual of the Planes, prior to the Epic Level Handbook where it was merely reprinted, and is in no way, shape, or form, only in the realm of deities to create.
Genesis and Psionic Genesis. The second is more appropriately balanced, by the way, because unlike the magic version, it is far more restrictive on exactly what you can do with the plane.
So this is by no means new, nor was it the stuff of gods. Creating a demiplane is not quite like creating a true plane. By true plane, I mean an infinite expanse, such as the astral, ethereal, positive, negative, or various elemental planes. I could be wrong, but I think the heavens and hells were infinite as well (I know the abyss was supposedly infinite).
I don't see how this spell is that big of a deal. I mean, my group is level 16 and I'm fairly certain they could conquer a demi-plane if they wanted to. In fact, they basically did when I ran A Paladin in Hell for them. 2 of them, actually.
A demi-plane isn't going to be noticed right away. If a character really starts using it as a base of operations and it becomes an important resource, then potent enemies are likely to notice and do something about it. Even if you are the only one with a tuning fork to plane shift, gate would work to get there. And many high level demons or devils can do that.
So if you really want a nice demi-plane to yourself, leave some protections to guard it while you are gone.
Especially since extradimensional spaces are in the same family as demiplanes, and wizards are poopin' them things out at 3rd level.
Create Demiplane is cool and all, but I don't know... This just brings me back to something Cirno was saying in another thread.
As it stands, every single level 13 or higher Cleric now automatically has the ability to create (essentially) permanent planes of existence just by giving up 2 hours of their time once every two weeks and a one time cost for a fork that costs less than 1% the average WBL.
On the other hand, Rangers finally get something cool with the addition of traps. Except they suck, and they have to give up all their spell casting in order to do it (or a feat for an even more extremely limited version). At thirteenth level when that Cleric is making a demiplane, the Ranger is making traps do pitiful damage or negligible effects that can be spotted and disabled with DC 20 checks (oh wait, I meant DC 18 if you actually want the trap to last more than an hour). Pure Rangers at that level can already buy better traps for cheap, or cast the spell Snare with better DCs... why would you ever want to be a trapper?
I guess the point is that both creating demiplanes and traps are cool abilities I would like to see in my games. But in UM, full spellcasters (particularly divine casters) are getting a whole bunch of new, cool, and powerful abilities at (often) no or marginal cost, whereas traps are simply not much benefit for a huge, huge cost.
It just seems like another case of the spellcasters pulling ahead of the more martial characters in terms of cool options and abilities. I know this is Ultimate Magic and all, but how many things are every single martial class going to get for free in Ultimate Combat?
Agreed. Sean K. Reynolds was complaining on the gunslinger boards a while back about how his cleric couldn't melee like a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, and that wasn't fair. I've been terrified ever since.
Oh, and just 'cause it's funny...
Did you know that a core wizard can play god by 15th level? By "play god", I mean he could create all the animals of the world, all the plants, and even make brad new people out of dirt, put one of them in a coma, rip a rib out of them, heal them, and then make a second human from the rib of the first.
I suppose it is up to your GM to rule that different planes of reality are solely the domain of deities, but it's only overpowered if one considers a character having a private, restricted-access area the size of a small manor house.
Personally, since seeing that spell I've been wondering what sort of areas it can be used to create. If I were to use this, I'd probably play it out as looping back on itself in every direction rather than having a physical border, which kind of dampens the idea that it's a closed universe unto itself. (Plus, it's kind of difficult to visualize a universe that's 50 feet on a side.)
I think it has the potential to be breaking the game, and that is all to do with the Timeless proporty, you can give them.
Yes, it is at level 17, where you are able to do insane things, but this makes the ability to leave combat, getting healed and rest up for new spells and abilities , and returning to said combat at the next initiative count.
He could even cast Timestop in his plane, interplanetary teleport to the combat, cast a spell or two, interplanetary teleport to safety. Rinse and repeat
Basically it has the potential to destroy any normal encounter structure. I would want to have to make everywhere that is important in the game, be no-teleport zones.
Mind you, it is a pretty easy GM fix. But it is one of the few occasions where a spell (or a spell combo) clearly has the potential for breaking the game.
I don't think that creating demiplanes is overpowered at all. Mainly because someone can destroy pretty easily. This wouldn't (probably) happen with demiplanes created by a real god (or at least the person would very much regret destroying the plane).
It's a great spell "to look forward too" when you're in early levels. You can bring your folks (with Leadership) to the promised land, where wine will flow as water and gravity is such that it will flow right into your mouth (better not do that, you might suffocate).
What might be overpowered a bit is that it has it's own permanancy included, no need to pay, just make it timeless. Per description all spells that aren't immediate are permanent. Create demiplane is 1day/lvl :)
Also you can make the best ambushes, just timeless antimagic field all around the entry portal, and as many big golems as you can afford, I would like to see who can survive that.
To make sure nobody destroys your precious, timeless antimagic field everything but a single 5x5x5 spot only you know about, possible in the middle of a wall. People who want to destroy it, must be on the plane and cast something, too bad :)
Anyhow, it's a great spell, NPCs will get most use out of it, but PC's will feel awesome when simply having it in their spellbooks.
I think it has the potential to be breaking the game, and that is all to do with the Timeless proporty, you can give them.
Yes, it is at level 17, where you are able to do insane things, but this makes the ability to leave combat, getting healed and rest up for new spells and abilities , and returning to said combat at the next initiative count.
He could even cast Timestop in his plane, interplanetary teleport to the combat, cast a spell or two, interplanetary teleport to safety. Rinse and repeatBasically it has the potential to destroy any normal encounter structure. I would want to have to make everywhere that is important in the game, be no-teleport zones.
Mind you, it is a pretty easy GM fix. But it is one of the few occasions where a spell (or a spell combo) clearly has the potential for breaking the game.
Which is why the psionic version is sooooooo much better.
Which is why the psionic version is sooooooo much better.I think it has the potential to be breaking the game, and that is all to do with the Timeless proporty, you can give them.
Yes, it is at level 17, where you are able to do insane things, but this makes the ability to leave combat, getting healed and rest up for new spells and abilities , and returning to said combat at the next initiative count.
He could even cast Timestop in his plane, interplanetary teleport to the combat, cast a spell or two, interplanetary teleport to safety. Rinse and repeatBasically it has the potential to destroy any normal encounter structure. I would want to have to make everywhere that is important in the game, be no-teleport zones.
Mind you, it is a pretty easy GM fix. But it is one of the few occasions where a spell (or a spell combo) clearly has the potential for breaking the game.
If it functions as the described in GM guide, Timeless doesn't actually stop time at all. Individuals just don't feel the effects of it it until they leave the place. It specifies that time still flows.
Side note, Create Demi-plane was a spell in 2nd edition, so precedent is fairly well established.
If it functions as the described in GM guide, Timeless doesn't actually stop time at all. Individuals just don't feel the effects of it it until they leave the place. It specifies that time still flows.
I am glad to hear that :)
I have some memories from earlier editions, where it was possible to have planes which effectively stopped time outside it. Don't quite recall where and when though.
If it functions as the described in GM guide, Timeless doesn't actually stop time at all. Individuals just don't feel the effects of it it until they leave the place. It specifies that time still flows.
I am glad to hear that :)
I have some memories from earlier editions, where it was possible to have planes which effectively stopped time outside it. Don't quite recall where and when though.
The erratic time quality can do this, but it can also do the opposite. Very risky.
I could see abuses in the traits (how does work the time?) + planeshift. Maybe.
But the gain in RP, adventure hooks, alternatives to "yet another dungeon room" are enormous.
Also remember that when you create a Demiplane it is just an empty space, you have to pay 20kgp to make it permanent then another 20/23k each for each additional trait. So a 15th lvl Wizard would have to pay 40k gp for a 1500squ feet plane that makes enough food to sustain up to 150 creatures, but you have to use planar travel spells just to get their. If you want something like night and day then that's another 20k. And god forbid you'd want to mess with something like time or magic it costs anther 23k on top of that.
yes 20k isn't that bad for a 15th level player but 100k is. Also you have to remember if he spends 100k+ on his fantastic personal demiplane he's not spending it on his Metamagic Rods or Staffs etc.
Also remember that when you create a Demiplane it is just an empty space, you have to pay 20kgp to make it permanent then another 20/23k each for each additional trait. So a 15th lvl Wizard would have to pay 40k gp for a 1500squ feet plane that makes enough food to sustain up to 150 creatures, but you have to use planar travel spells just to get their. If you want something like night and day then that's another 20k. And god forbid you'd want to mess with something like time or magic it costs anther 23k on top of that.
yes 20k isn't that bad for a 15th level player but 100k is. Also you have to remember if he spends 100k+ on his fantastic personal demiplane he's not spending it on his Metamagic Rods or Staffs etc.
You only pay to make the size increases permanent. Adding traits to the plane is instantaneous effects, and as such does not require permanency.
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From the gmg
Timeless : On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
Edit: on another note it would make an excellent prison assuming you could keep something in the plane past their natural lifespan. If they ever leave they die.
Also, how does cumulative hunger work? If you leave after not having eaten for a year are you just really hungry or do you die?
They way that modifying the time trait can be abusive is by speeding time up drastically. The manual of the planes basically described that some planes have time that passes slower or faster than others, and actually noted that someone could planeshift to a plane with a very fast time trait and spend days or more, only to return to the material plane to find that only a round or so had passed.
It's not the timeless aspect that's an issue. It's the modification of the time trait itself, which the psionic version expressly forbids (because 3.5 psionics were generally far more balanced than 3.x magic ever was).
By the time characters are 17th level, they make Princes of Amber look like patsies. I have no problem with them having personal Shadows as their demesnes.
Is this spell OP?
It's arguable, which this thread should cover quite nicely. (Though doing so at 13th level is too much for me.)
is plane creation only for the gods?
If your GM says it is. End of story.
They way that modifying the time trait can be abusive is by speeding time up drastically. The manual of the planes basically described that some planes have time that passes slower or faster than others, and actually noted that someone could planeshift to a plane with a very fast time trait and spend days or more, only to return to the material plane to find that only a round or so had passed.
It's not the timeless aspect that's an issue. It's the modification of the time trait itself, which the psionic version expressly forbids (because 3.5 psionics were generally far more balanced than 3.x magic ever was).
The spell describes the ability to speed up relative time by a maximum of 50%. Two days spent on Demiplane equates to one day on material.
The spell describes the ability to speed up relative time by a maximum of 50%. Two days spent on Demiplane equates to one day on material.They way that modifying the time trait can be abusive is by speeding time up drastically. The manual of the planes basically described that some planes have time that passes slower or faster than others, and actually noted that someone could planeshift to a plane with a very fast time trait and spend days or more, only to return to the material plane to find that only a round or so had passed.
It's not the timeless aspect that's an issue. It's the modification of the time trait itself, which the psionic version expressly forbids (because 3.5 psionics were generally far more balanced than 3.x magic ever was).
Hmm. It looks like timeless doesn't change time; it just stops time for those inside and 'real time' returns to them once they leave. However, erratic and flowing time seem to actually change time. ...in which case you can at least replenish your spells every 12 hours? I think this is the only RAW way to get around the usual 1 day limit on class abilities. Could be wrong? Meh.
Hmm. It looks like timeless doesn't change time; it just stops time for those inside and 'real time' returns to them once they leave. However, erratic and flowing time seem to actually change time. ...in which case you can at least replenish your spells every 12 hours? I think this is the only RAW way to get around the usual 1 day limit on class abilities. Could be wrong? Meh.The spell describes the ability to speed up relative time by a maximum of 50%. Two days spent on Demiplane equates to one day on material.They way that modifying the time trait can be abusive is by speeding time up drastically. The manual of the planes basically described that some planes have time that passes slower or faster than others, and actually noted that someone could planeshift to a plane with a very fast time trait and spend days or more, only to return to the material plane to find that only a round or so had passed.
It's not the timeless aspect that's an issue. It's the modification of the time trait itself, which the psionic version expressly forbids (because 3.5 psionics were generally far more balanced than 3.x magic ever was).
Time is relative. For the individual in the pocket plane with a 50% relative increase 24 hours have passed for him/her even though only 12 hours have passed on the prime material plane.
So you're correct, sort of. only 12 hours passed in the prime, but the character experienced a full day. I'd say the character can prepare spells every 24 hours he/she experiences regardless of what's happening in the rest of the multiverse.
Hmm. It looks like timeless doesn't change time; it just stops time for those inside and 'real time' returns to them once they leave. However, erratic and flowing time seem to actually change time. ...in which case you can at least replenish your spells every 12 hours? I think this is the only RAW way to get around the usual 1 day limit on class abilities. Could be wrong? Meh.The spell describes the ability to speed up relative time by a maximum of 50%. Two days spent on Demiplane equates to one day on material.They way that modifying the time trait can be abusive is by speeding time up drastically. The manual of the planes basically described that some planes have time that passes slower or faster than others, and actually noted that someone could planeshift to a plane with a very fast time trait and spend days or more, only to return to the material plane to find that only a round or so had passed.
It's not the timeless aspect that's an issue. It's the modification of the time trait itself, which the psionic version expressly forbids (because 3.5 psionics were generally far more balanced than 3.x magic ever was).
Time is relative. For the individual in the pocket plane with a 50% relative increase 24 hours have passed for him/her even though only 12 hours have passed on the prime material plane.
So you're correct, sort of. only 12 hours passed in the prime, but the character experienced a full day. I'd say the character can prepare spells every 24 hours he/she experiences regardless of what's happening in the rest of the multiverse.
I does raise an interesting question concerning divine spellcaster. Since they prepare spells at a fixed time of day, how do they function on a plane that does not have night and day (through the seasonal trait) and perhaps a unnatural flow of time?
I does raise an interesting question concerning divine spellcaster. Since they prepare spells at a fixed time of day, how do they function on a plane that does not have night and day (through the seasonal trait) and perhaps a unnatural flow of time?
They have to prepare their spells at the same time every 24 hours. Whether or not there is a day is irrelevant to that.
Edit: and the question isn't new. It's been around for as long as there has been an astral plane. Or planes in general.
I does raise an interesting question concerning divine spellcaster. Since they prepare spells at a fixed time of day, how do they function on a plane that does not have night and day (through the seasonal trait) and perhaps a unnatural flow of time?They have to prepare their spells at the same time every 24 hours. Whether or not there is a day is irrelevant to that.
Edit: and the question isn't new. It's been around for as long as there has been an astral plane. Or planes in general.
Mechanically that is the best way to go.
But the rules suggest that the time of day, rather than 24 hours intervals, is the important part. "The time is usually associated with some daily event."
Mechanically that is the best way to go.
But the rules suggest that the time of day, rather than 24 hours intervals, is the important part. "The time is usually associated with some daily event."
Yes, time of day is symbolically important and coincides with rituals. An hour before dawn, etc. I still posit that your cleric's internal divine clock is tuned to that time of day on their home plane and that they continue to use that time relative to their own timeline until they return home and can re-orient themselves. Unless you really don't want your players to spend time on other planes.
As a GM for a planar campaign, I can say that every 24 hours really is the easiest and fastest way to handle it.
Also, how does cumulative hunger work? If you leave after not having eaten for a year are you just really hungry or do you die?
It's just academic at this point, but does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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I would go with accelerating hunger. It will appear immediately after leaving the plane and start growing very fast. After an hour, that person would start losing a pound of weight per ten minutes, slowly wasting away. They would also have to eat as much as they haven't eaten. So if they were there for a year, they would have to eat a year's worth of food in at least two weeks to stave of degeneration and dying from hunger.
I would go with accelerating hunger. It will appear immediately after leaving the plane and start growing very fast. After an hour, that person would start losing a pound of weight per ten minutes, slowly wasting away. They would also have to eat as much as they haven't eaten. So if they were there for a year, they would have to eat a year's worth of food in at least two weeks to stave of degeneration and dying from hunger.
Interesting. Best to wear a ring of sustenance or be prepared to eat all the food in a large village.
The endless meat spell combo would be particularly helpful here.
Can someone actually explain how the
Erratic Time
Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between such planes and any others. To the denizens of such a plane, time flows naturally and the shift is unnoticed. The following is provided as an example.
d% Time on Material Plane Time on Erratic Time Plane
01–10 1 day 1 round
11–40 1 day 1 hour
41–60 1 day 1 day
61–90 1 hour 1 day
91–100 1 round 1 day
works?
How often do you check, how often does the speed shift?
Checking every round would be..... I really donn´t see why or how I would allow/use this specific trait.
Can someone actually explain how the
Erratic Time
Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between such planes and any others.
As it read the above, you make the check when leaves the plane (or enters it, which shouldn't matter), to see how long the time he spend in the plane is equivalent of in the 'real' world.
I wouldn't allow/use it either, unless it was some very accomodating campaign... If the players (or worse, one of them) spends a day in there, it bears a 10 % risk that when they return almost 40 years has passed.. That could really destroy a timeline for my game.
"His argument is that a player should not be allowed to do so because that is something that deity's can do and there are rules for that in the Deities and Demigods and that you need Divine Rank to be able to do that"
Well, your GM has the final say in his game.
However, justifying it by saying that it contradicts a rules supplement from a different game by a different publisher is pretty dang spurious.
Maybe you can't do it in Empire of the Petal Throne either, but who cares?
-Kle.
his GM IS right - but undesrtimates IMHO an important thing.
high level characters challenge deites somewhat. In magical power someone, in physical prowess someone else.
Now, if the GM thinks the spell is not suitable for the setting, he has the last word. So one point it out this thing, and move on regardless the answer..
"His argument is that a player should not be allowed to do so because that is something that deity's can do and there are rules for that in the Deities and Demigods and that you need Divine Rank to be able to do that"
Well, your GM has the final say in his game.
However, justifying it by saying that it contradicts a rules supplement from a different game by a different publisher is pretty dang spurious.
Maybe you can't do it in Empire of the Petal Throne either, but who cares?
-Kle.
It's already been show that even in 3.0 D&D, same source as the above assumptions, you have spells that do basically the same thing for much less cost I may add. Additionally it has been show that the line of product leading to pathfinder supports mortal creation of Demi-planes.
You can't completely call 3.0 D&D a different game. Part of many folks objection to 4e was/is exactly that kind of blanket dismissal of this game/hobby's past.
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While the GM has the final say in-game, it would be worth noting outside of game time that he is wrong according to RAW. I've had similar problems in the past with GMs that haven't fully read the Pathfinder rules, and still operate largely from half-remembered 3.0/3.5 rules. Two of them still don't understand how magic item creation works at all, specifically magical weapons and armor. They think that you can simply take a masterwork item and create a sword with the flaming property. No +1 needed, because flaming counts as +1 . . . *right*
It sounds to me like your GM hasn't read UM yet, so you would be doing him a great favor by loaning him that book and maybe even going over that section with him; the two of you should be able to work out a compromise from there.
I personally think the the demiplane line of spells is totally balanced; casting time is in hours, so you generally have to do it in your down time. The area is fairly limited; at 17th level create greater demiplane only creates 340 10ft cubes. That's a demiplane 100ft x 100ft x 30 ft with an extra 40 miscellaneous cubes to round it out with some more sky or maybe a little lake. The cost for permanency isn't inconsiderable; 22,500gp. Sure, the average character wealth at 17th level is 410,000gp, but that's usually encompassed by important gear that many PCs would be loathe to part with. Some folks have mentioned this cost every time you recast the spells to modify the plane, but that is incorrect. It is also incorrect to think that you need multiple tuning forks; the 500gp tuning fork is a focus, and therefore not expended.
So, long story short, the spells are balanced as they stand, your GM needs to read material he plans on excluding from his game before making decisions, especially if those decisions are going to directly impact the enjoyment and playstyle of his players, and marmosets are amazing creatures.
Agreed. Sean K. Reynolds was complaining on the gunslinger boards a while back about how his cleric couldn't melee like a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, and that wasn't fair. I've been terrified ever since.
Ditto, Ashiel. I'm firmly behind Cirno's interpretations on most things as well.
At 13th level, a fighter's money has been sunk into save-boosters, weapons, armors, stat-boosters, etc. He can swing a sword three or four times per round, make a few skill checks really well (if he's spent his paltry points in a smart fashion), hit things for nice damage all day long. OK. I won't deny that being the big tough guy is fun, but ...
The 13th level cleric or wizard chucks some money into demiplane creation and can then chill in his own personal mini-world.
Why the hell would I ever want to play a character that isn't a straight caster?
EDIT: I know it's hard to tell over the Internet, so I'd like to call out that I am exaggerating. Of course there is room in my heart for Fighters and half-casters like the Magus (which is probably my favorite class after Cleric).
Why the hell would I ever want to play a character that isn't a straight caster?
Well.. because he might be as fun to play as the caster... ?
Well.. because he might be as fun to play as the caster... ?
Why the hell would I ever want to play a character that isn't a straight caster?
I understand that. I was being more than a little hyperbolic - there's definitely love in the Cowjuicer juice-sack for Fighters, I promise. It just seems like there are so many more crazy interesting things to be done with spells. Take your Fighter buddies along for the ride, too, but all the cool effects are focused on Bob Wizardly. It ties into Cirno's "narrative power" hypothesis.
Thank you for reminding me that I should call out my hyperbole though. I changed the other post.