Actually, upon further reflection I can agree that sorcerers don't necessarily need a bunch of non-bloodline archetypes, but I also agree with Ogre that it's a bit sad that wizards get a list of 10 wizard-only feats (a.k.a. "arcane discoveries") to choose from, but sorcerers only get one sorcerer-only feat.
Not counting, of course, that they've got nearly 50 bloodlines to choose from, each with its own set of powers.
Actually, upon further reflection I can agree that sorcerers don't necessarily need a bunch of non-bloodline archetypes, but I also agree with Ogre that it's a bit sad that wizards get a list of 10 wizard-only feats (a.k.a. "arcane discoveries") to choose from, but sorcerers only get one sorcerer-only feat.Not counting, of course, that they've got nearly 50 bloodlines to choose from, each with its own set of powers.
From Ogre's initial post:
Now Ultimate Magic comes out and introduces... more bloodlines! Grrr. Essentially we now have something on the order of 50 choices for what path to choose for new sorcerers but ZERO interesting options for existing sorcerer characters.
We could reduce the sorcerer's spells known by 1 at every other class level and give the class a new ability-choice-fork at every other level (just like rogue talents, hexes, and so on), which would allow for more class customization like with archetypes, but I suspect people would gripe about losing those spells known....
I would LOVE to see a sorcerer with the ability to cast hexes!
Personally, I have no problem with more blood lines.
Animal/beast/lycanthropic blood line please!
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So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.
You could say the same of wizards, yet wizards got new special wizard only abilities and special spellbooks.
Anyhow, water under the bridge at this point. Suffice to say I'd like to see more sorcerer only options in future products.
To me, the sorc at my tables is almost never played. We had one guy run one and to say he explored all the possibilities is preposterous. He did run an ice sorc, which was fun to watch.
I like the new options for sorcerers because I see the wizard has a little more oomph than them with a bonded item. I might be wrong, and I encourage some creative showcasing as to what you can do.
I like the new possibilities with the archetypes from the APG, coupled with the bloodlines, you have a viable character. I just as a player would prefer to play a conjurer wizard instead.
I was considering a Dhampir sorcerer with the sanguine bloodline (Dhampirs appear as potential player races in Bestiary 2). He's half-undead and he drinks blood to heal himself-but am shelving the idea because it seems that negative energy affinity, whilst fine for a monster, is a rather severe drawback for a player character since a the cleric who heals the rest of the party would need to specifically prepare inflict spells to heal you.
Conceptually, pretty darn cool, I reckon. Might make an interesting villain, but really only feasible if you can somehow produce negative energy yourself at later levels, when you need more than just the occasional 1d6 healing between fights.
I have a dhampir in my Kingmaker AP game. Granted, there have been issues...but she hasn't died yet.
So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.You could say the same of wizards, yet wizards got new special wizard only abilities and special spellbooks.
I'd be totally fine with allowing a sorcerer to select arcane discoveries.
As for spellbooks, that's gear, and wizards are a gear-dependent class (those books are there actually to make it easier to create a wiz character, as picking spells for an NPCs spellbook is time-consuming and annoying). What sort of nonmagical gear would cater to a sorcerer and not also wizard?
So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.You could say the same of wizards, yet wizards got new special wizard only abilities and special spellbooks.I'd be totally fine with allowing a sorcerer to select arcane discoveries.
As for spellbooks, that's gear, and wizards are a gear-dependent class (those books are there actually to make it easier to create a wiz character, as picking spells for an NPCs spellbook is time-consuming and annoying). What sort of nonmagical gear would cater to a sorcerer and not also wizard?
Whoah, wait, spellbooks aren't considered class abilities? So a wizard who goes into a spell-advancing prestige class (such as mystic theurge) still gets his 2 free wizard spells each level he advances his wizard spellcasting in the prestige class?
An arcane bloodline sorcerer or similar character who can take arcane bond (item) can get a spellbook, fill it with a bunch of spells and cast from it once per day using his arcane bond ability?
Is it really so? Please let it be so!
So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.You could say the same of wizards, yet wizards got new special wizard only abilities and special spellbooks.I'd be totally fine with allowing a sorcerer to select arcane discoveries.
As for spellbooks, that's gear, and wizards are a gear-dependent class (those books are there actually to make it easier to create a wiz character, as picking spells for an NPCs spellbook is time-consuming and annoying). What sort of nonmagical gear would cater to a sorcerer and not also wizard?
Whoah, wait, spellbooks aren't considered class abilities? So a wizard who goes into a spell-advancing prestige class (such as mystic theurge) still gets his 2 free wizard spells each level he advances his wizard spellcasting in the prestige class?
An arcane bloodline sorcerer or similar character who can take arcane bond (item) can get a spellbook, fill it with a bunch of spells and cast from it once per day using his arcane bond ability?
Is it really so? Please let it be so!
Heheh, such are the ripples on a lake. :P
As for spellbooks, that's gear, and wizards are a gear-dependent class (those books are there actually to make it easier to create a wiz character, as picking spells for an NPCs spellbook is time-consuming and annoying). What sort of nonmagical gear would cater to a sorcerer and not also wizard?Whoah, wait, spellbooks aren't considered class abilities?
From the context he's referring to the spellbooks from Ultimate Magic. A wizard doesn't have a class ability called Apprentice Chapbook of Rul Thaven, for instance, just like a sorcerer doesn't have a class ability called Robes of Arcane Heritage.
From the context he's referring to the spellbooks from Ultimate Magic. A wizard doesn't have a class ability called Apprentice Chapbook of Rul Thaven, for instance, just like a sorcerer doesn't have a class ability called Robes of Arcane Heritage.
Correct.
From the context he's referring to the spellbooks from Ultimate Magic. A wizard doesn't have a class ability called Apprentice Chapbook of Rul Thaven, for instance, just like a sorcerer doesn't have a class ability called Robes of Arcane Heritage.Correct.
*cries*
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So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.You could say the same of wizards, yet wizards got new special wizard only abilities and special spellbooks.I'd be totally fine with allowing a sorcerer to select arcane discoveries.
As for spellbooks, that's gear, and wizards are a gear-dependent class (those books are there actually to make it easier to create a wiz character, as picking spells for an NPCs spellbook is time-consuming and annoying). What sort of nonmagical gear would cater to a sorcerer and not also wizard?
I don't think there is really any non-magical gear that would cater to sorcerer over the wizard. I don't think I would classify spellbooks as non-magical gear though. (For what it's worth the spellbooks are a great addition).
I can think of a fair number of feats/ archetypes that would be interesting for sorcerers though.
Besides Ogre`s ideas (his second is more or less a specific example of what I envisioned earlier),
Why don`t we see abilities similar to Eldritch Heritage in the first place,
but allowing Sorcerors to add the Bloodline Spells known from the selected `additional` Bloodline.
And why couldn`t that also be an item, either on a single Spell Level basis, or for the whole deal (1st-9th)?
Sorceror only, since it only works if you have Sorceror Spellcasting Slots.
And not to `force` multi-Bloodline Sorcerors, have `advanced` Bloodline Spell Lists,
that are lists of MORE thematic spells, but only `accessed` by these methods...?
(ignoring normal spell learning that any sorceror automatically does on level-up)
I don't think there is really any non-magical gear that would cater to sorcerer over the wizard.
I agree.
I don't think I would classify spellbooks as non-magical gear though.
IMO, a regular spellbook with no extra abilities isn't gear, it's a tool for using a wizard class feature (spells).
However, the spellbooks in UM give additional abilities that aren't related to or dependent upon the spells in them, thus I consider them gear, as in "I don't need this to perform my basic duties as a wizard, but having them gives me additional options/abilities."
I can think of a fair number of feats/ archetypes that would be interesting for sorcerers though.
I agree that all of those would be interesting options for sorcerers.
I'm working on a thing for sorcerers here.
Come and join in! :D
It lets sorcerers exchange spells known for additional powers that may improve their other spells or add other abilities that aren't fueled by spells per day.
Simply put, you trade breadth of spells known for extra bonuses.
Oh, I agree. I'm basically giving up on Paizo until they come out with "Ultimate everything-I-wanted-on-a-silver-platter-because-I'm-the-only-gamer-in-the-w orld"
*smacks forehead in frustration*
Oh, I agree. I'm basically giving up on Paizo until they come out with "Ultimate everything-I-wanted-on-a-silver-platter-because-I'm-the-only-gamer-in-the-w orld"
*smacks forehead in frustration*
Wonderful way to overstate other people's opinion. Honestly it's this sort of stupid that continues to cause so much trouble in USA politics -- the inability to acknowledge the other person's side has any merit at all.
Personally I think it points to character flaws in the people involved.
I let my sorcerers switch out more than one spell every even level.
It can be done at any level, as long as it's not of your highest known spell level, and beyond the first, the spell must be switched out when you gain the higher level version of the spell.
I.E. you can switch out Dragon form I for another spell, but only if you gain dragon form II at the same level. This allows more versatility, and the spells you use level up with you.
I also give them their bloodline spell two levels earlier, giving them spell level access at the same rate as a wizard, and making the bloodline more relevant to the character. they get it 0 times per day, adjusted by ability scores.
I find these simple changes are enough to make the sorcerer more than worth playing and as good as any wizard.
Personally, I like all of the bloodlines. I ran a 3.5 Sorceror from FR who was from Calimshan and I may be converting him someday and the Efreeti bloodline works like a champ for him.
To each their own really.
Oh, I agree. I'm basically giving up on Paizo until they come out with "Ultimate everything-I-wanted-on-a-silver-platter-because-I'm-the-only-gamer-in-the-w orld"
*smacks forehead in frustration*
honestly, i dont think its too much to ask for more sorcerer options that existing sorcerers can take in a book all about character options for spellcasters, seeing as how every other class (save the martial characters, they get their own book) got plenty of options for players.
personally, ill never use crossblooded, although my other buddy loves the idea. and the wildblooded are just more bloodlines, since its been said that people can take them with Eldritch Heritage, which they "shouldnt" be able to since they are supposed to be an "archetype." they just seem like more bloodlines to me.
thats all we got, and a few new spells that maybe useful for sorcerers, but not all of the new spells compliment a sorcerer very well since they can be highly situation specific. and WOP but anyone can use those. I now believe that wizard is better than sorcerer (although i hate the wizard) but it is true after taking into account all of the new options they can have. ill still playing sorcerers over wizards, since now they are the underdogs.
and i think what the posters over in Umbral linked thread above are doing a great job with new options. instead of griping, you should come help us out. more fun than brooding over other peoples' posts. ;)
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Personally, I like all of the bloodlines. I ran a 3.5 Sorceror from FR who was from Calimshan and I may be converting him someday and the Efreeti bloodline works like a champ for him.
To each their own really.
Isn't the efreeti bloodline about 80% identical to the fire elemental bloodline?
I guess I shouldn't get so frustrated about the bloodlines because a lot of people do like having a bunch. At this point we've gotten two major books since core and bloodlines are still all we see. I'd like to see some more options for existing characters and other ways to customize sorcerers
I do like the Wildblood because it gives a good set of new options and fixes some of the perceived issues with existing bloodlines.
and the wildblooded are just more bloodlines, since its been said that people can take them with Eldritch Heritage...Where has that been said, and by whom?
I think it`s just based on people saying `wildblooded are just like new bloodlines`, and thinking that they are therefore legit for anybody to take via EH.
Wildblooded ARE pretty much like new bloodlines (that count as their base BL for other affects, just like variant Fighters count as Fighters), but they are only `activated` by a SORCEROR alternate class feature. So the only people taking Wildblooded Eldritch Heritage Bloodlines are SORCERORS who already have the Wildblooded alt. class feature.
Anyhow, hopefully the Wizard-only Arcane Discoveries WILL be Errata`d to be open to Sorcerors as well, as SKR agreed made sense. In fact, I can see them NOT being open to Witches, who have plenty of their own stuff, but being available to Sorcerors just seems decent.
and the wildblooded are just more bloodlines, since its been said that people can take them with Eldritch Heritage...Where has that been said, and by whom?I think it`s just based on people saying `wildblooded are just like new bloodlines`, and thinking that they are therefore legit for anybody to take via EH.
Wildblooded ARE pretty much like new bloodlines (that count as their base BL for other affects, just like variant Fighters count as Fighters), but they are only `activated` by a SORCEROR alternate class feature. So the only people taking Wildblooded Eldritch Heritage Bloodlines are SORCERORS who already have the Wildblooded alt. class feature.
Anyhow, hopefully the Wizard-only Arcane Discoveries WILL be Errata`d to be open to Sorcerors as well, as SKR agreed made sense. In fact, I can see them NOT being open to Witches, who have plenty of their own stuff, but being available to Sorcerors just seems decent.
i also see no reason why druids couldnt take multimorph, other than being that they are divine caster.
@Epic Meepo
i didnt say this was fact, i just noticed someone somewhere had stated this and that it was discussed. i just wasnt that interested in pursuing the answer with them. sorry for the confusion.
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Wildblooded ARE pretty much like new bloodlines (that count as their base BL for other affects, just like variant Fighters count as Fighters), but they are only `activated` by a SORCEROR alternate class feature.Actually, I'm looking at the book right now, and that's not correct. A wildblooded sorcerer selects both a normal sorcerer bloodline and a mutant bloodline associated with that sorcerer bloodline. The mutant bloodline doesn't count as its associated bloodline. It's a second ability that you select in addition to the associated bloodline, which you also possess.
You are more or less right... but they work essentially the same as Cleric Sub-Domains and subdomains are open to everyone who can get domains.
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You are more or less right... but they work essentially the same as Cleric Sub-Domains and subdomains are open to everyone who can get domains.Subdomains are open to everyone because, per the rules, if you want a subdomain, you simply select a subdomain. Making that decision is a one-step process. But the rules do not say you simply select a mutant bloodline. They explicitly state that you first select a bloodline, then, as a second step, select a mutant bloodline after selecting your bloodline. Eldritch Heritage says select a bloodline. It does not allow for a second step in the selection process.
Again, I don't disagree with you. I'm just pointing out that the two mechanisms are very similar and there was similar confusion when sub-domains came out.
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Anyhow, hopefully the Wizard-only Arcane Discoveries WILL be Errata`d to be open to Sorcerors as well, as SKR agreed made sense. In fact, I can see them NOT being open to Witches, who have plenty of their own stuff, but being available to Sorcerors just seems decent.
+1
Although i think that this is a false hope.
Speaking of bloodlines, I'm trying to puzzle out which one to pick for the Eldritch Heritage feat for my natural-weapons warrior. So far the main contenders are Abyssal for the claws (which don't stack with my current claws but essentially adds flaming to my attacks for 8 rounds a day) and a (soon-to-be) +4 to strength, or Serpentine for an extra attack with some really nasty poison.
The main disadvantage of the Serpentine bloodline is that I need to pick skill focus (diplomacy). I already stopped boosting my diplomacy because it's 'more than enough' as is.
So many things to pick from though! Gaah! And I haven't even started worrying about what would make the most in-character sense yet!
I love Sorcerers, its my stand-by class. If I don't know what to make, its a Sorcerer. I want to branch out and play some different blood lines, but I gravitate to the Draconic. I always come up with some of the best lines while playing a Sorcerer as well. Right now I have a black dragon blooded kobold sorcerer who is a little on the dumb side and I keep everyone at the table laughing. (I worship Tiamat, 5 heads, 5 times the power!)
I can't really get into the Wizard, the whole preping spells each morning kills it. I don't feel like I have any freedom in the spell choice. Some how I always prep the wrong spells, then the killer GMs steal my spell book or sunder my component pouch.
I can't really get into the Wizard, the whole preping spells each morning kills it. I don't feel like I have any freedom in the spell choice. Some how I always prep the wrong spells, then the killer GMs steal my spell book or sunder my component pouch.
Always have a second (and maybe a third) spell component pouch in your handy haversack, they only cost 5 gp (plus the cost of any focuses), there is no reason why you shouldn't carry more than one.
Also it's a very good idea for a wizard to have a copy of his spellbook(s) hidden somewhere safe, and remember the empty spellbook costs only 15gp and the inscribing costs for coping a spellbook are halved.Also you might want to talk to your DM because unless everybody got his equipment stolen (for example the weapon and armor of the fighter) then the DM is trying to get either you (as a person) or the wizard (as a class).
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The thing I want for sorcerers are interesting bloodlines. I'm not talking about mechanics. For me, the only ones that have any interest at all would be rakshasa, draconic, and maybe arcane, but those are still a stretch for me. The bloodlines just don't hold much interest for storline or fluff for me. However, I do like the idea of bloodlines.
Personally, I like all of the bloodlines. I ran a 3.5 Sorceror from FR who was from Calimshan and I may be converting him someday and the Efreeti bloodline works like a champ for him.
To each their own really.
Isn't the efreeti bloodline about 80% identical to the fire elemental bloodline?
I guess I shouldn't get so frustrated about the bloodlines because a lot of people do like having a bunch. At this point we've gotten two major books since core and bloodlines are still all we see. I'd like to see some more options for existing characters and other ways to customize sorcerers
I do like the Wildblood because it gives a good set of new options and fixes some of the perceived issues with existing bloodlines.
It is very similar, yes. But like I said to each their own. I like fluff... My character is from Calimshan and is a descendant of an Efreet. So, I would've taken the Fire Element but now I can take Efreeti. It's the little things I guess.
But, I do agree that Archtypes or whathaveyou for Sorcerors would be nice, too.
You know, back in 3.5 sorcerers had certian spells they could cast at +1 caster level or spells they could only cast.
It relied on being dragonblooded..
Why not a list of spells that are very much for certain bloodlines of sorcerer?
Like.. Many spells that deal with undeath for example, if you take the undead bloodline, cast at +1 caster level for a sorcerer of that bloodline. (require the arcana, so only sorcerers can have this.)
My problem with bloodlines is they don't do much period.
I mean really lets compare to say the oracle:
Sorcerer:
4 bonus feats, bonus spells known, 4 powers, a capstone and an arcana.Oracle:
6 powers, bonus spells known, extra bonus spells known, a capstone, choice of powers, 'curse', extra usage of powers through feats, extra powers through feats and magic items.I'm completely leaving the base line out on purpose -- just on class abilities alone the oracle kills the sorcerer -- then the oracle gets extra spells known on top of it, and gets the bonus spells known earlier than the sorcerer does.
Some people will say that's an unfair comparison though -- so lets go with the wizard:
5 bonus feats, better casting stat, 1 school special, 2 school powers, capstone, arcane bond, ability to trade out feats for more powers, feats that allow them to duplicate everything that supposedly makes the sorcerer better as well as magic items that do the same.
Consider for the wizard, spell specialization and greater spell specialization.
Take spell specialization 4 times, then take greater spell specialization once. Now you have four spells that you can spontaneously cast whenever you want. Also you can trade all four of them out at the same time every even level -- as opposed to the sorcerer's ability to trade out one spell at a time every even level.
All the other full spell casters also rip the sorcerer apart.
His abilities are regularly being stolen from him and given to everyone else, on top of everything else the other classes already get.
In fact most of his powers are a complete waste of time -- Another blasting power? Great too bad I can only use it once compared to the flame oracles 3 times a day per power. Oh, claws how quaint -- in case I want to insult the goblins once I'm level 10 right? Because I have such great ability in melee combat I should seek it out to claw people.
It's insulting what has been done to the sorcerer.
I agree, it's the same comparing the wizard to the Cleric too. The argument I've heard though is Arcane spells are more powerful. I don't think that's true, used be in 2E but not since 3E came out.
You know, back in 3.5 sorcerers had certian spells they could cast at +1 caster level or spells they could only cast.
It relied on being dragonblooded.. Why not a list of spells that are very much for certain bloodlines of sorcerer?
Like.. Many spells that deal with undeath for example, if you take the undead bloodline, cast at +1 caster level for a sorcerer of that bloodline. (require the arcana, so only sorcerers can have this.)
I could definitely see something like this working out... To allow a broader range of `thematic` spells outside the smaller range that the BL`s already tend to boost. Anybody (Wiz/Sorc) could cast them, but if you have the correct BL, you get an extra bonus. Of course, anybody with the appropriate Eldritch Heritage would also get this benefit, but since Sorcerors get it automatically, and can have 2 (or 3) BL if they so choose, it disproportionately benefits them... Even have the benefit depend on BL level, and those who aren`t really appropriate BL Sorcerors need to invest all the way into the Eldritch Heritage chain to get full advantage, or perhaps DON`T ever get the full advantage as the real deal (i.e. trail in power by levels or something, never getting `capstone` scaling effect).
Of course, there could also just be BL-specific spells, but your idea seems more viable to actually be printed because most casters CAN use the spells, rather than 5-10% of Sorcerors only.
At this point, I hope Inner Sea Magic does Sorcerors good, because I can`t really support more magic-focused crunch in general at this point. Really, it`s kind of wierd that Paizo did both UM and ISM before melee/mundane focused crunch products...
Really, it`s kind of wierd that Paizo did both UM and ISM before melee/mundane focused crunch products...
UC = Gen Con release = big deal
UM = spring release = less hooplah
That's why they're the order they are.
UC = Gen Con release = big dealUM = spring release = less hooplah
That's why they're the order they are.
I thought it was well established that "non-casters can't have nice things". Don't you have your priorities wrong? :)
The one thing that I thought was very odd was the new Wildblooded Sorcerer Archetype. To me, they're just Subdomains, but you need a specific bloodline to take them. I agree that it would have been cooler to have a list of "Wild Powers" associated with each bloodline and you could pick the ones you want. For example, I play an Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer. I think the Arcane Bolt ability of the Sage is cool (I play a caster-type and I have no problem giving up Arcane Bond for the ability to shoot eldritch blasts), but my character is not an intellect, nor would I want to alter his stats to make him one, causing the Bloodline Arcana to be, well, useless.
I agree that something more flexible like Mysteries would have been nice, but at the same time I do like new bloodlines. To me, the blood line is the only REAL class feature the Sorcerers have and each bloodline basically is its own archetype. What else are they going to give up? Bonus Spells? Bonus Feats? I guess you could, but it would be weird to say the least.
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Quite frankly I think they should remain as Wizards only. Wizards are THE definitive researchers and experimenters in magic.Anyhow, hopefully the Wizard-only Arcane Discoveries WILL be Errata`d to be open to Sorcerors as well, as SKR agreed made sense. In fact, I can see them NOT being open to Witches, who have plenty of their own stuff, but being available to Sorcerors just seems decent.
+1
Although i think that this is a false hope.
Many of them make sense only for wizards, some of them like Multimorph actually make more sense to sorcerers.
Ultimately you could use your argument to limit nearly any spell related abilities to wizards. Making them better and better relative to the sorcerer.
I agree that the wildblooded archtype should of had a list of abilities for each bloodline that you could pick and choose.