Arcane Archer as a mage with a bow, or How to optimize the unoptimized


Advice


It seems like there are two ways you can play an Arcane Archer; you can focus on combat, taking lots of fighter, Ranger or Zen Archer Monk levels and using spells and class abilities to augment the character's combat skills, or you can go for maximum caster levels, and be a "mage with a bow." Most builds and discussions seem to focus on the former; I am interested in the latter.

My basic build is Sorcerer 12/Arcane Archer 8, although I have toyed with Sorcerer 12/Arcane Archer 4/Eldritch knight 4. Either will give me 9th level spells and a BAB of +14 at 20th level. The Eldritch Knight build gives me Weapon Spec. and Point Blank Master, but I get them so late in the game that it hardly seems worth it, so I am leaning towards the straightforward Sorcerer/Arcane Archer path.

I plan on taking the Elemental (Fire) bloodline and focusing on blasting. I am aware that Arcane Archers and blasters are considered suboptimal at best, but there are some mitigating factors that make this concept more viable than it might otherwise be.

1) Right now, our party consists of a Chavelier that will likely take a level of Bard and then take levels of Battle Herald, and a Sorcerer focusing on enchanments and illusions (think 3.5 Beguiler).

The final character is not determined, but according to the player, "something primal," maybe a druid. With so little to go on, I'm not really factoring that character into my build concept.

So, we have a Tank/Leader and a Controller. Someone who can do damage seems appropriate.

2)Much of the planned campaign involves wars between various human principalities and a Goblin empire that eventually must unite to combat an army of demons bent on destroying the world. So, for most of the campaign, until high levels (12+), most of my opponents will be humanoid. in the end game, we will be fighting hordes of demons, which i know means lots of fire resistance and immunity, but by then I will have Arcane Archer to help out with damage dealing.

I am looking for help building my character. I don't usually build this sort of character as either a PC or NPC so I will need a lot of help. For starters, since most of my feats, particularly the early ones, will be Archery related, which 1 or 2 metamagic feats are best? Is Spell Penetration or Spell Focus more important? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, Sorcerer seems thematically and mechanically better for a blaster style, but would a Wizard be better?

Scarab Sages

Well, this kind of depends on the usage you want.

First off, while sorcerer gives you immediate access to all the spells you know, wizard will give you versatility for your caster, as well as quicker access to higher spell levels. Much of the strength of a caster is in having the right spell for any situation, so in this regard a wizard would be better.

If you have access to non-core material, then consider the arcane trickster as an additional prestige class to synergize with. Imbue arrow a fireball, for example, and deal sneak attack damage against all the targets with surprise spells.

But in order to make this feasible, you need a feat that grants sneak attack damage. The only one I'm currently aware of exists in the oriental adventures 3.5 splat material.

Think about how to synergize best with arcane archer. The arcane archer has a lot of abilities that negate concealment, follows targets, or attacks everyone in range. Since the enhance arrow ability only works on non-magical ammunition, you're looking at using your spells to improve the bow itself and provide you with stat/attack bonuses. Gravity bow from the APG is an automatic choice. Cat's grace/bull's strength, the invisibility chain of feats, flight, true seeing, polymorph spells, and battlefield control spells like fog cloud, black tentacles, and the such are big beans to increasing your damage, keeping you from sight, and locking your opponents down so they can't come looking.


I've got one of these as a PFS character, and it's been great fun.

I decided to build around the question "What spells would an archer want?"

So, for example, I've got darkvision, see invisibility, and scorching ray as my 2nd level spells. I haven't come across an opponent that I couldn't shoot arrows at, which is fine with me.

Haste and fly are the third level choices, both of which make it easier to shoot arrows at people.

And, many of my spells can be cast on others, which is good for having a stronger party. Darkvision on the rogue, mage armor on the monk, fly on the fighter are all great ways to go.


As for your character, you're going to start out with sorceror, and be there for quite a while. As you play, you'll get a sense of where you want to head. You don't have to plan EVERYTHING out.


Thank you for your help so far. We have limited access to noncore material. In our campaign that means that if an option exists in official 3.5 material that will help you build your character concept, then you can use it. For instance, if I wanted to play this character as a servant of Sarenrae who uses fire spells and a bow to simulate the clensing rays of light of the Dawnflower, I could probably have access to the Silver Pyromancer from Eberron's Five Nations sourcebook.

I won't really be much of an archer until very high levels, the character will play like a standard Sorcerer for the first 12 levels. The only difference is I will use a shortbow instead of a crossbow as my backup weapon.

Feats: H:PBS, 1:Pr. Shot, Sor: Eschew Materials, 3: MWP (Shortbow), 5: Rapid Shot, 7: Weapon Focus (Shortbow), 9: Racial Heritage (Elf), 12: ??

I haven't fully worked out my spells known yet, but below is my tentative spell list, levels 0-3.

0: Resistance, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Ray of Frost, Spark
1: Mage Armor, Sleep, Burning Hands, Color Spray, Ex. Retreat, Grav. Bow
2: Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Spont. Immolation
3: Magic Circle, Fire Ball, Fly, Haste


Elf, Human or Half-Elf Wizard 12 / Arcane Archer the rest of the way. You want your Dex to ramp up to 19+, Int is secondary.

1st - Point Blank Shot
Wiz 1st - open
3rd - Weapon Focus (longbow)
5th - Precise Shot
Wiz 5th - open
7th - open
9th - Quicken Spell - the better to pepper your foes with arrows, my dear (via quickened true strikes).
Wiz 10th - open
11th - open
13th [Arcane Archer 1st, BAB 7] - Vital Strike <-- one shot, one hit, one kill OR Manyshot if you picked up Rapid Shot earlier on.
15th - [BAB 9] Improved Critical (longbow)
17th - [BAB 11] Improved Precise Shot <-- need Dex 19 or higher by this point.
19th - [BAB 13] Improved Vital Strike OR open.

Consider Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Heighten Spell. Take finger of death as a spell at 14th (when you are Arcane Archer 2nd and gain access to 7th level spells) - now you can craft slaying and greater slaying arrows at cost.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The niftiest trick I see the arcane archer having is that imbue arrow power, particularly with spells that normally center around the caster (imbue arrow, antimagic field, detonate [from the Advanced Player's guide]).

If you're wanting to go with a (Pathfinder) elf sorcerer and have access to Ultimate Magic, consider the Sage wildblood archetype (like a subdomain for bloodlines- lets you use Intelligence instead of Charisma for determining your spellcasting).


Turin, your build is similar to mine. I take PBS and Pr. Shot at 1st level because the -4 shooting into melee kills a half BAB character. I am using Heirloom Weapon to get around the lack of bow proficiency until I take Martial Weapon Proficiency Shortbow at 3rd level.

I like Quicken True Strike /snipped.

Psion, Imbue Arrow is one of those things that looked cool until read it, then looked weak until I understood it and accepted its limitations; chiefly, it only works with area effect spells, so it only works with a relatively small number of spells. Detonate was one I was counting on, also Ice Storm and Black Tentacles. I can't quite figure out if it would work with Cloudkill or not.

I'm going with Human and taking Racial Heritage as a feat. I know it is essentially a feat tax, as most players seem to wave the racial restriction, but I have not seen the racial restriction actually removed in erreta.

As of right now, I have my stats penciled in:
Str 11 Dex 17 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Char 16 from a 20 pt buy.

I'll post a more complete build in order to consolidate the ideas to make it easier for people to review.


posternutbag wrote:

Turin, your build is similar to mine. I take PBS and Pr. Shot at 1st level because the -4 shooting into melee kills a half BAB character. I am using Heirloom Weapon to get around the lack of bow proficiency until I take Martial Weapon Proficiency Shortbow at 3rd level.

I like Quicken True Strike /snipped.

Psion, Imbue Arrow is one of those things that looked cool until read it, then looked weak until I understood it and accepted its limitations; chiefly, it only works with area effect spells, so it only works with a relatively small number of spells. Detonate was one I was counting on, also Ice Storm and Black Tentacles. I can't quite figure out if it would work with Cloudkill or not.

I'm going with Human and taking Racial Heritage as a feat. I know it is essentially a feat tax, as most players seem to wave the racial restriction, but I have not seen the racial restriction actually removed in erreta.

As of right now, I have my stats penciled in:
Str 11 Dex 17 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Char 16 from a 20 pt buy.

I'll post a more complete build in order to consolidate the ideas to make it easier for people to review.

Going Sorcerer eh? You do know elves get longbows (and other nice weapons) for free ? ^_^ No need for an heirloom weapon or burning a valuable feat on Martial Weapon proficiency.

Wizard or Arcane Sorcerer have the option (although the latter not as a Sage-blooded Arcane Sorcerer) to have their bonded item be a weapon ... who suspects the pointy-eared bugger with a bow to be lobbing fireballs at 5th level ? :)


Sorcerer 12/Arcane Archer 8 NG Human Sorcerer (Elemental/Fire Bloodline)
Starting Stats: Str 11 Dex 17 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Char 16

Traits: Heirloom Weapon, Focused Mind

Feats: Sorc: Eschew Materials, Human: PBS
1: Pr. Shot
3: MWP: Shortbow
5: Rapid Shot
7(BL): Improved Initiative, 7: Weapon Focus: Shortbow
9: Racial Heritage
11: Metamagic, Spell Focus (Evoc) or Spell Penetration
13: Same as above
15: Imp. Critical Shortbow
17: Imp. Pr. Shot

Spells of note:
0: Read magic, Detect magic, Ray of Frost, Spark
1: Sleep, Color Spray, Burning Hands (BL), Mage Armor, True Strike
2: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray(BL), Acid/Fire Arrow, Spont. Immolation
3: Fireball, Protection from Energy(BL), Haste, Fly, BlackLight
4: Ice/Fire Storm, Elemental Body(BL), Black Tentacles, Scrying, Detonate
5: CloudKill, Cone of Cold, Teleport, Elemental Body II(BL)
6: Gr. Dispel Magic, Contageous Flame, Sirocco
7:FireBrand, Mass Fly, Gr. Polymorph
8:Incendiary Cloud, Polar Ray
9: Meteor Swarm

OK, so there is my basic build, thoughts, criticisms, ideas, very welcome.

Edit:
Turin, thank you for your help on multiple occasions. I really do appreciate feedback. Even if it doesn't end up in my build, please know I consider every relevant point. The main reason I am avoiding Wizard is to avoid Arcane Bond. I fear that some of my metagaming colleagues would target my bonded weapon, amulet or ring.

I do know Elves get Bows and Longsword proficiencies free. I have thought about Elf, but it doesn't fit with my backstory. Half-elf is a possibility. I think Half-elf might be strickly better after 3rd level. Free MWP from Ancestral Arms balances the free Human feat, and with no need for Racial Heritage, I actually wind up a feat ahead. Getting Precise Shot 2 levels later is pretty much the only downside from a design perspective.


Good stuff!

Just building on my idea in reply - do with it as you see fit. :)

NG Elf Wizard 12 / Arcane Archer 8
Racial Traits: use the CRB ones, they're best for this build. Favored class will go into hp or skills at your discretion, although hp are probably best.

Traits: Magical Knack (+2 Wizard CL), one of choice - recommend one that gives Perception as a class skill w/ +1 trait bonus on top of it (if you can find one).

20 point buy: 11 Str (1 pt), 17 Dex (7 pts for 15 +2 elf), 11 Con (3 pts for 13 -2 elf), 17 Int (7 pts for 15 +2 elf), 12 Wis (2 pts), 10 Cha (0 pts).

MWP Longbow, Shortbow, Longsword and Rapier proficiencies are free.
Level advancement ability score points are invested into Dex at 4th and 8th; Int at 12th, 16th and 20th.

Tactical Reminder: Well-aimed shots are Your Friend.

FEATS

1st - Point Blank Shot
Wizard 1st - Scribe Scroll or Arcane Builder - Magic Arms and Armor (UM Arcane Discovery) or something else your GM is willing to let you swap out for it. Spell Mastery would be particularly appropriate!
3rd - Weapon Focus (longbow)
5th - Precise Shot
Wizard 5th - Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Spell Mastery or Fast Study (depending upon the campaign)
7th - Silent Spell <-- for True Strike; can swap for WF from 3rd.
9th - Quicken Spell <-- for True Strike. At 11th you can prepare Quickened Silent True Strike. Just make sure you have several of the arcane foci secured on important bits of your garments or something, wear a pair as bling.
Wizard 10th - Heighten Spell if you are going to be able to make your own slaying arrows, otherwise "open" or Threnodic Spell (UM).
11th - Skill Focus (perception) <-- given how important Perception is as a skill, this is worth considering at this point, presuming one has invested full ranks. Presuming True Strike is your primary spell memorized, having several variations of it available to you certainly adds greatly to your tactical flexibility.
13th - Arcane Archer 1st gives light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, shields proficiency as well proficiency with all simple weapons, all martial weapons and all "elven" weapons for free. Such as that elven curve blade you've been eyeing all these levels. And celestial armor ... mmmm ... celestial armor ... and a force shield ring ...
13th - Vital Strike double base weapon damage on a well-aimed shot - YES PLEASE! The extra +5 attack bonus is a Good Thing15th - Improved Critical (longbow)
17th - Improved Precise Shot
19th - Improved Vital Strike triple base weapon damage on a well-aimed shot - YES PLEASE! The extra +5 attack bonus is a Good Thing
21st - Pinpoint Targeting


I'm not an expert on the rules. I would love to know if any of you had a build that got a wizard or sorcerer using a bow competent by 6th level, without being a half orc.

I tried making a couple of them, high strength and int with some precision damage and dah dah dah but it all came out so sub par. I mean, they were still full spell casters so they were still more powerful than most characters, but I always felt like the bow was decoration.


cranewings wrote:

I'm not an expert on the rules. I would love to know if any of you had a build that got a wizard or sorcerer using a bow competent by 6th level, without being a half orc.

I tried making a couple of them, high strength and int with some precision damage and dah dah dah but it all came out so sub par. I mean, they were still full spell casters so they were still more powerful than most characters, but I always felt like the bow was decoration.

Well-aimed shots add +5 attack bonus as your full-round action every round as I understand it. With PB Shot at 1st you're plinking away very reliably even at close range. If the foe is well armored, true strike and shoot every other round, falling back on spells as they get too close for comfort. Squeeze Deadly Aim into either of the above builds will steadily increase damage output over time, which you can do as early as 3rd level. Early on your big investments will be in a +1 longbow, an efficient quiver and as many energy or bane or holy arrows as you come across. Feel out your foes on the first shot or two along with any free action Knowledge checks you can make. Doing so let's you know what "heavy artillery" you need to bring to bear.

The biggest weakness is against incorporeal foes, since ghost touch seems to be intended as a melee weapon enhancement. Prepare magic weapon as a matter of course, along with True Strike, See Invisibility and Glitterdust. Invest fully in ranks of Perception, everything else is secondary. Mage Armor and Shield - especially the latter - are very handy, but your primary defense is shoot and move. With Dex and Int/Cha eating up your two best ability scores, you have little wiggle room to spare for Con and Wis. The bow is reliable, but not spectacular, until you're about 8th level when Deadly Aim hits the "sweet spot" of -2 attack/+4 damage. The Flame Arrow spell (presuming that it is still a 3rd level spell) and - again at the 8th level sweet spot - GMW starts pulling some serious weight for you.

Scarab Sages

Couple notes here --

Not sure where you're getting well-aimed from. Feat? Splat book?

True strike affects your *next* attack, which means you only apply it to one attack/round.

That being the case, it seems likely to me that the most effective thing to do would be a full-attack action with the bow, followed with a quickened spell.

Imbue arrow says: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time." The standard casting time of a quickened spell is a swift action.

With an arcane archer build, you're looking at strength, dex, and intelligence/charisma for your primary stats. Strength will add damage to your composite bow, dex for attack bonus, and of course your casting stat.

Incorporeal targets are where you pull out the force (magic missile) spells :/ The real issue is going to be damage reduction, though greater magic weapon helps a lot with that. You'll still probably need to carry around a bunch of special material arrows.


I'm currently playing a level 1 character that I'm hoping to build up to AA. I've done A LOT of research, speculative builds, etc, and have decided to go Wizard 1/Ranger 6 for mine (I decided I wanted a combat focused skill specialist/naturalist - in the end, the flavor was the determining factor).

Were I to go caster heavy, I would go Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer X (probably AA 3, then back to EK). I don't have the numbers on hand, but this build results in a high caster level (you lose one CL at 10 if you take magical knack), and gets you into AA faster than straight Wizard or Sorcerer, with a higher BAB (plus the two extra combat feats). I would definitely recommend this route if you want to focus on your casting, but still be a functioning archer.

Personally, my order of feats would be thus: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Many Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim being exchangeable.

I personally prefer Wizard to Sorcerer because of the synergy with the elf racial bonuses (plus the elf gets the longbow proficiency), but that aside, swapping in Sorcerer for Wizard would work with this build. Either way you're focusing on Dex, with save DCs (and therefore casting stats) being a secondary consideration.

Hope this helps some; again, I think this is the way to go if you're wanting to be caster heavy.


Magicdealer wrote:

Couple notes here --

Not sure where you're getting well-aimed from. Feat? Splat book?

True strike affects your *next* attack, which means you only apply it to one attack/round.

That being the case, it seems likely to me that the most effective thing to do would be a full-attack action with the bow, followed with a quickened spell.

Imbue arrow says: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time." The standard casting time of a quickened spell is a swift action.

With an arcane archer build, you're looking at strength, dex, and intelligence/charisma for your primary stats. Strength will add damage to your composite bow, dex for attack bonus, and of course your casting stat.

Incorporeal targets are where you pull out the force (magic missile) spells :/ The real issue is going to be damage reduction, though greater magic weapon helps a lot with that. You'll still probably need to carry around a bunch of special material arrows.

Imbu

Well-aimed shots are buried in the combat section of the CRB somewhere. It came to my attention in preparing for a certain tournament in Chapter 5 of Kingmaker.

Most archery builds rely on riffing off as many arrows as possible per round. The arcane caster as archer doesn't get the BAB to make this work, so the approach is to make that one shot per round or every other round count as much as possible. DR is always an issue. Ironically, due to the limitations of the concept, ammo expenditure is substantially less.

And yes, Magic Missile is Your Friend as always starting about 5th level. Before that you're pretty hosed unless you luck into a wand of it along the way.

The major strength of the arcanist-arcane archer is the imbue arrow ability. Specifically in that either version is set to rip lose with the nastiest stuff you can muster at ranges potentially exceeding even Long range for all but casters of the highest levels. Such as Anti-Magic Field. All those nasty Close range and Personal or Emanation spells are safely deliverable at about a thousand feet. Two thousand with a Distance bow. Quickened True Strike all but guarantees the bad guy eats that spell too. :)

As the "standard" Fighter or Ranger 6th / Sorc or Wiz 1 / Arcane Archer your concern for a high Strength is necessary, as you won't be casting spells above 4th level for your career until AFTER 17th level (at which point you have a base casting ability of 8th level). And that's only if you resume advancing in your spellcasting class and don't head right over into Eldritch Knight. Juggling AA & EK can probably net a bit better spell chuckage, but not enough to really matter.

By contrast, the 12 Sorc/Wiz into Arcane Archer sees you enter the PrC casting 6th level spells for certain and ends up at 20th with 20th CL - assuming the Magical Knack trait - and base spells as if you were 18th level in either class. Power Word arrows, Meteor Swarm arrows, Disintegration arrows, Prismatic Sphere arrows, Imprisonment arrows ...

I can live with that. :)

Scarab Sages

Oh, the wizard arcane bond thing -- take a familiar. If you don't want a familiar, take the familiar but leave him in the wild. Eventually, when something eats it, don't bother to replace it.

Sadly, at distances of 1000-2000 feet, you start getting into conversations about whether you can even perceive your target. Yeah, been there :( Not much to do if you can't find something to shoot at.

If all you're looking for from the arcane archer is the imbue ability, then there isn't a good reason to take arcane archer beyond that point when eldritch knight opens up weapon specialization and such.

I did a pdf search of "well aimed" and "well-aimed", neither of which got a hit from the CRB before I asked :/ Also, I just finished reading through the combat chapter and couldn't find.

Magic missile is useful whenever you run into an incorporeal creature, whether that's 5th level or first. Of course, you can't quicken it until fifth level slots but...

The wiz/aa idea that the OP seems to be interested in might get more mileage from a bunch of arrows + a quickened spell/imbued arrow each round instead of an imbued arrow every round/every other round.
Human: traits - heirloom weapon: longbow

1wiz point blank shot, precise shot
2wiz
3wiz rapid shot
4wiz
5wiz far shot
6wiz
7wiz (deadly aim? or extend spell)
8wiz
9wiz quicken spell
10wiz
11wiz intensified spell
12wiz
13aa focused shot
14aa
15aa Spell perfection
16aa
17aa ...
18aa
19aa ...
20aa

The eldritch knight build is nice for including weapon specialization and point blank mastery.
Though for the one imbue attack/round, wizard + focused shot would go nicely together.

I'd probably go more along the lines of -
Str 14
Dex 15 (add +2 racial and +1 level total 18)
Con 10
Int 15 (add +4 from levels total 19)
Wis 10
Cha 7

That's a 15 point buy, which I believe is what the OP has to work with.

1fighter point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot
2wizard (1st lvl spells)
3wizard weapon focus
4wizard (2nd lvl spells)
5wizard extend spell
6wizard (3rd lvl spells)
7eldritch knight far shot, intensify spell
8eldritch knight
9eldritch knight manyshot (4th lvl spells)
10 arcane archer
11 arcane archer quicken spell
12 eldritch knight (5th lvl spells)
13 eldritch knight weapon specialization
14 eldritch knight (6th lvl spells)
15 eldritch knight greater weapon focus
16 eldritch knight (7th lvl spells)
17 eldritch knight spell perfection
18 eldritch knight (8th lvl spells)
19 arcane archer point blank mastery
20 arcane archer (9th lvl spells)

Feats could probably be moved around a bit. You end up with bab +17, which means 4 bow attacks from bab, one from rapid, one from many, and one with an attached spell when using a quickened spell.

So on a non-magical bow with haste at 20 you would have... bab 17+2 focus/gfocus+4 gmw+4 dex)
25*2/25/25/20/15/10 + (25/imbued arrow)

So you're shooting a total of eight arrows and one spell each round. 4 from bab, one from rapid, one from haste, one from manyshot, one with imbue as a swift action. You have 9th level spells. You get a free quickened spell on a critical hit thanks to eldritch knight, and you get a bunch of attacks to help you crit. With the practiced spellcaster trait and the caster ioun stone, your caster level is equal to 20.

Power Word arrows, Meteor Swarm arrows, Disintegration arrows, Prismatic Sphere arrows, Imprisonment arrows ... Better bab, more action/output each round, weapon specialization *which opens up point blank mastery*...

Not too shabby looking, overall. Of course, the drawbacks are somewhat slower spell progression from 7th to 10th. Of course, these are the levels where you get to merge your bow attacks with your spells, so it's not too bad.


Turin has most of the same ideas I do, so I won't repeat him. I will say getting Precise Shot ASAP should be a priority for any archer, unless you are soloing. The -4 for shooting into melee is a tremendous hit, and even worse for a half BAB character.

I think a combat archer focused Arcane Archer builds will always be sub-par. The flavor is great, but I keep thinking, why am I not a Zen Archer Monk, which can pretty much be the Tetragrammaton Cleric of Pathfinder. Even better, Zen Archer 9/Fighter 11 (Archer or Weapon Master).

I think that if you are going for a combat flavored archer, Zen Archer has so much going for it. Flurry of Bows negates the need for Rapid and Many Shot, you get Perfect Strike at 1st level, Weapon Focus at 2nd, and Weapon Spec at 6th both essentially for free, plus Point Blank Master as a free feat at 3rd, and finally Reflexive Shot at 9th. Plus all of the Monk goodies that really matter, speed and AC, and the ability to threaten with unarmed strikes while holding on to your bow until you pick up Reflexive Shot. The class is so frontloaded that everything you need is wrapped up conveniently in the first 9 levels, then take 1 level of Arcane Caster, and into Arcane Archer. Borrowing a bit from MagicDealer, Zen Archer 9/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 4/Eldritch Knight 5 is also a good way to go.


Nice stuff! :)


If you want to be a damage hose with an Arcane Archer you need to go with the style build that Qik already posted.

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1

Start out with an Int of 13 or 14, max. Don't bother putting points in it, just use Headbands of Int to eventually get it to 19. Put your Dex up as high as you can instead, and any Strength you can also add will help with your damage.

Take Ring as your arcane bond.

Also, posternutbag, a combat focused AA style build is still one of the best damage builds around while also having the versatility of wizard spells. I think it actually outdamages the Zen Archer style builds.

I should point out to Magicdealer that you won't be able to shoot a quickened spell and ALSO benefit from the Eldritch Knight's Spell Critical function as they both used swift actions. Also, one of the best bets in builds like this is actually the feat Arcane Strike, which is also a swift action. By the end, arcane strike adds 5 damage per arrow, which works out to a really nice amount of damage overall.

In the end, your DCs will not be very high, so you are much better off making a build that buffs itself and then just hoses things down with damage. I'm playing an 11th level version of this build and he regularly can drop around 150 damage per round....plus he has Overland Flight, which is just ridiculous for an archery based character.

Edit: I hate the title of this thread! The Arcane Archer build, when done correctly, ends up with full iterative attacks and 9th level spells off the wiz/sorc list. How is that unoptimized?!?!?! It's actually the best way to get the highest mix of BAB and Casting. No other build ends up with those numbers.


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Turin the Mad wrote:
Well-aimed shots are buried in the combat section of the CRB somewhere.

Where? Can you find that for me? I can't find it anywhere, nor searching the PRD.


Sylvanite wrote:
Also, one of the best bets in builds like this is actually the feat Arcane Strike, which is also a swift action. By the end, arcane strike adds 5 damage per arrow, which works out to a really nice amount of damage overall.

I'm actually curious where you would recommend taking Arcane Strike. In my number crunching, I've never really found a place to take it earlier than lvl 9 unless I was going Wizard 1/Fighter 6. What would you forgo in place of it?


As an AA I'd probably take Arcane Strike in lieu of an early metamagic feat, and use a metamagic rod instead. Extend spell is rather suspect to me, in particular since so few buffs really seem to warrant it.

I might also shift a feat like manyshot or deadly aim back a little to move Arcane Strike up, so that I could 'absorb' the -AB from those feats a bit better with items or higher dex by then.


I can't find mention of well aimed shot either. (or well-aimed, or wellaimed, or aimed shot, or anything like it).

Citation perhaps? link or book and page number would be awesome as I'm currently playing an archer bard..

-S


Selgard wrote:

I can't find mention of well aimed shot either. (or well-aimed, or wellaimed, or aimed shot, or anything like it).

Citation perhaps? link or book and page number would be awesome as I'm currently playing an archer bard..

-S

This shouldn't spoiler anything ...

In the tournament that takes place in Chapter 5 of the Kingmaker AP, during the archery tournament one of the NPCs makes specific use of this tactic. James Jacobs has confirmed that this is in the CRB. I would cite if I wasn't doing this post on my smell phone.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I can't find mention of well aimed shot either. (or well-aimed, or wellaimed, or aimed shot, or anything like it).

Citation perhaps? link or book and page number would be awesome as I'm currently playing an archer bard..

-S

This shouldn't spoiler anything ...

In the tournament that takes place in Chapter 5 of the Kingmaker AP, during the archery tournament one of the NPCs makes specific use of this tactic. James Jacobs has confirmed that this is in the CRB. I would cite if I wasn't doing this post on my smell phone.

Found it. Post is here

The important point to note that you get a +5 when aiming against stationary, unattended OBJECTS. That's what these archers were doing in Kingmaker 5 (archery contest). This doesn't have any affect whatsoever in a battle.


Qik wrote:
Sylvanite wrote:
Also, one of the best bets in builds like this is actually the feat Arcane Strike, which is also a swift action. By the end, arcane strike adds 5 damage per arrow, which works out to a really nice amount of damage overall.
I'm actually curious where you would recommend taking Arcane Strike. In my number crunching, I've never really found a place to take it earlier than lvl 9 unless I was going Wizard 1/Fighter 6. What would you forgo in place of it?

Feats are fairly tight in a good AA build, as archery has a lot of good feats. I should mention that I'm allowed to go into AA as a human in the campaign world I'm in (I took the Acopted trait and made it by elves...it makes sense storywise and no one in the group can understand why that prestige class is the only racially exclusive one in PF.)

However, here is how I would build, featwise, as an elf:
Build: Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 6/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +4/Arcane Archer +1

1: Point Blank, Precise Shot
3: Weapon Focus
5: Rapid Shot
6: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7: Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim
9: Manyshot
11: Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master
13: Quicken Spell
15: Improved Initiative?
17: Greater Weapon Focus
18: ?
19: ?

Explanation: I prefer to wait to take AA so I can grab the extra feats EK offers, as well as get Overland Flight as soon as I can. I take EK all the way to 12 to get the extra +1 from GMW as I don't anticipate having an Orange Ioun Stone by then. Besides, I ban Evocation, so the only thing I really want Imbue Arrow for is Anti-Magic Field, which I won't get till 14 no matter how I shuffle the levels of this build around. The only way my Human build differs is that it has Improved Initiative a little earlier, at 7 I believe and Arcane Strike is pushed forward to 5, rapid shot at 3 and weapon focus at 1.

I honestly haven't planned out the feats at the very end of the build, and would welcome suggestions. I'm not really sold on Improved Precise Shot by the time this build can take it, as I always grab the Seeking enhancement with archers. Things also don't tend to have cover from allies by the time I can take Imp. Precise, simply because I'm always flying and can take good angles. That said, I may take it eventually just in case. I dunno. Opinions?

Metamagic wise, a rod of lesser extend covers greater magic weapon and mage armor. That's really all I need it for, as hour buffs by the time I get later level ones are already lasting almost all day (11 to 12 hours when you get Overland Flight). I really think that Quicken is the most essential to get Shield up, or True Strike right before that Imbue'd AMF arrow. You can also quicken a low spell and use it with imbue arrow to grab an extra attack if you really want to blow 4th and 5th level spells for that.

Also, with Point Blank Master, if you find that will never really be useful in the way your campaign has gone (I go multiple sessions in a row without getting hit at this point, let alone sitting in a threatened area, thanks to Improved Invisibility, having good tanks, and flying all the time) you can drop that and take whatever you want in that second level 11 slot.


Merkatz wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I can't find mention of well aimed shot either. (or well-aimed, or wellaimed, or aimed shot, or anything like it).

Citation perhaps? link or book and page number would be awesome as I'm currently playing an archer bard..

-S

This shouldn't spoiler anything ...

In the tournament that takes place in Chapter 5 of the Kingmaker AP, during the archery tournament one of the NPCs makes specific use of this tactic. James Jacobs has confirmed that this is in the CRB. I would cite if I wasn't doing this post on my smell phone.

Found it. Post is here

The important point to note that you get a +5 when aiming against stationary, unattended OBJECTS. That's what these archers were doing in Kingmaker 5 (archery contest). This doesn't have any affect whatsoever in a battle.

Well paint my mini-onions purple and call 'em beets ... thanks for the catch!


Just a note, Arcane Archer is not restricted to elves. Can't find the post, but it's been said several times it was never intended to be in PF, which is why the Dwarven Defender got changed to Stalwart Defender.


Talynonyx wrote:
Just a note, Arcane Archer is not restricted to elves. Can't find the post, but it's been said several times it was never intended to be in PF, which is why the Dwarven Defender got changed to Stalwart Defender.

Considering the rules are in their fourth printing and it still says Elf or Half Elf, I'd say it is restricted.

But it's not like someone's gonna come arrest you for bending it (except in PFS perhaps).

There's always the racial heritage feat, though.


My group waves a lot of requirements...you don't have to be evil to be an assassin, you don't have to be an elf for arcane archer, monks don't necessarily have to be lawful if there is a good story reason...we tend to err on the side of letting people play the characters they really want to play.

But as far as I know it's a "message board legend" that the elf/half-elf requirement was waived at some point.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
But as far as I know it's a "message board legend" that the elf/half-elf requirement was waived at some point.

I don't know if it's true, but I can't really see why it wouldn't. :)

Liberty's Edge

I observe that AAs still have the worst set of skills of any "prestige" class carried over from 3.5 -- and the three bow feats requirement is sheer murder* on anyone attempting to also be a reasonably competent spellcaster who does anything beyond low-level buff and utility.

(*As an elven or half-elf wizard, this is 100% of your feats at 5th level, the earliest point at which you'll meet all of AAs prerequisites IF you're going "most magic as possible" route.)


Mike Schneider wrote:

I observe that AAs still have the worst set of skills of any "prestige" class carried over from 3.5 -- and the three bow feats requirement is sheer murder* on anyone attempting to also be a reasonably competent spellcaster who does anything beyond low-level buff and utility.

(*As an elven or half-elf wizard, this is 100% of your feats at 5th level, the earliest point at which you'll meet all of AAs prerequisites IF you're going "most magic as possible" route.)

Arcane Archer IS a terrible class. However, as 4 filler levels to simply get to 9th level spells and 17 BAB, it's not to shabby, especially on a build designed to be an archer first and caster second. And AMF on an arrow is absolutely gamebreaking versus BBEG casters....though you are right that the class has no real awesome abilities. Just the situationally amazing Imbue Arrow. That's why AA should NEVER be taken past 4, and it really shouldn't even be taken unless your character is a dedicated archer.


Sorry, I was away from my computer road-tripping yesterday and I hate posting from my phone.

I wanted to quickly address the topic/thread title. I still don't think that Arcane Archers are optimized; however, my intention with the name of this thread was not meant to be a swipe against the AA PrC in any way, which I think that Paizo has improved to the point of viability. Rather, it was meant to acknowledge out that "MY" concept, a blaster Scorcerer focused on damage-dealing fire spells, is highly suboptimal, but it is what I wanted to play when I opened the post. I was looking for people to help me with my build; I didn't need people telling me a blaster archetype was suboptimal, I already knew this. To that effect, I think that this thread has been tremendous help, and I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to help me out.

The reason I use Zen Archer is that the class abilities wind up being useful to me. I suspect that my games are different than the ones other people play. I almost never need to pump out 100+ hps of damage in a single round. On the other hand, unless I take Precise Shot, I pretty much constantly miss shooting into melee, and without Point Blank Master, I get shredded with AoO. I find the universally strong saves and AC bonus of a Monk a boon to the survivability of a caster.

Maybe it is just the way that we play, we tend to have relatively few dungeon crawls, and almost no true big bads at the end of APs. Most of our APs are heavily role-playing oriented with lots of mass combat against humanoids, which means a target-rich environment with lots of relatively week opponents. WE also do lots of sieges, which is where I see Imbue Arrow coming into its own.

So, all of the Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/ AA X/ EK X builds have prompted me to totally rethink my Character. I still think a Sorcerer 12/AA 8 has merit as a "Mage with a bow", but my take-away from this is that I simply prefer nonmagical builds.

Three plus days of thinking about a magical archer has me itching to build my Tetragrammaton Cleric: Zen Archer Monk 9/Archer Fighter 11.

Thanks again to everyone who helped work on this. I think that there are enough good builds sprinkled throughout the thread that aspiring Arcane Archers will find lots of help buried in here.

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