No offense, you're creating a false dichotomy between role playing and "not sucking"; it is not a zero-sum game, you can be bad a$$, flavorful,and role play all at the same time.
You can, but by a similar token, you don't have to be super optimized or push at the upper limits of power to not suck. The play style of your group will have a lot to say about what sorts of characters get along well with each other. Having a hard core optimizer in the group, whether he's good at role playing or not, with non-hard core optimizers can be a bigger problem than a pack of semi-optimized, flavor-picking PCs.
vow of poverty should be renamed vow of sucking.Yeah, funny thing about poverty, it sucks.
That? That right there?
The Vow of Poverty Monk can't have that... cause it's PURE GOLD!
This book is what the wizards need to finally get their groove on with the flavor options of spell-research, secrets-of-the-universe research, planar allies, and a host of new methods and methodologies to assist in the making-of-uber of the magical side of DnD gameplay.
Even if I never play with Vow of Poverty (And face it, I probably will) this book is so loaded with useful fluff and crunch I can't see anyone actually negatively reviewing it. I've gone from Spellblight to the back of the book, and am now moving back to the front to read archetypes and thoroughly deconstruct the final build on the Magus, and I haven't found anything I haven't liked so far.
Rock on. Excelsior. Etc, etc.
That's precisely my point. My point is directed toward people who want the UM VoP monk to be amazing despite having no equipment. They solved the hurdle the only way they could. Try to make a VoP monk as good as a level appropriate fighter with gear, and then let me know how you solve the problem I'm referring to.I'm not confrontational, here. I'm saying there really isn't a good way to do it. If you have an idea, I'd love to hear it, it's an interesting puzzle.
+1/6 Levels.
Stand PC = Level
PC sans gear = level - 1 (and more as the game progresses, realistically... since even NPCs have a certain amount of wealth)
So sixth level fighter? Eighth level monk.
House rule it. Problem solved-ish. Let me know how it turns out.
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That's precisely my point. My point is directed toward people who want the UM VoP monk to be amazing despite having no equipment. They solved the hurdle the only way they could. Try to make a VoP monk as good as a level appropriate fighter with gear, and then let me know how you solve the problem I'm referring to.I'm not confrontational, here. I'm saying there really isn't a good way to do it. If you have an idea, I'd love to hear it, it's an interesting puzzle.
+1/6 Levels.
Stand PC = Level
PC sans gear = level - 1 (and more as the game progresses, realistically... since even NPCs have a certain amount of wealth)
So sixth level fighter? Eighth level monk.
House rule it. Problem solved-ish. Let me know how it turns out.
I didn't understand what you said. If you could possibly posit the solution in a decodable format?
:-p
You can, but by a similar token, you don't have to be super optimized or push at the upper limits of power to not suck. The play style of your group will have a lot to say about what sorts of characters get along well with each other. Having a hard core optimizer in the group, whether he's good at role playing or not, with non-hard core optimizers can be a bigger problem than a pack of semi-optimized, flavor-picking PCs.No offense, you're creating a false dichotomy between role playing and "not sucking"; it is not a zero-sum game, you can be bad a$$, flavorful,and role play all at the same time.
The issue is that some people here, not all, but some, are insisting that VoP is fine because it makes you weaker, and intentionally handicapping yourself is the only way to truly role-play. They accuse us that want more mechanical benefit of being optimizers or power-gamers, as if you must be one or the other.
I personally become very invested in my characters at creation. I spend hours pouring over feats, skills, spells, etc., but I also spend hours figuring out his/her personality, inspirations, and motivations. In short, I want my cake and to eat it too.
There are current examples of flavor and mechanics complementing each other within Pathfinder. For example, most of the Oracle's curses add flavor and add beneficial mechanics. The current VoP offers flavor with little net mechanical advantage (it tries to offer something but it doesn't offset the negatives).
This actually brings up another point where "monks can't have nice things". It was stated by a dev that VoP must suck because poverty sucks, but I'd argue that being blind, deaf, or lame also sucks but for some reason the Oracle is compensated for their disadvantages (gaining power from their disabilities) but the monk is told to suck it up and deal?
Well, if you choose to live like a beggar and ask the world to give you something in return, you'd probably get a good laugh in the first place.Maybe in America of the present day as well as most of Europe, you'd be right. But classically that's exactly how Buddhist monks in Asia are supposed to live.
And... do they get superpowers? Please note that poverty would keep them morally pure and at very best it gives them new insights. Or do you think they do it to be able to better beat up people? The ascethic life is not done for the benefits in current life, but for an improvement in the life that comes after this one or for the hope of better understanding of the world or something like that. I can't imagine a monk whose fighting prowess is destroyed by merely equipping him with a useles (but not cheap either) magic item that would have a minor curse - not being removeable.
If there is to be any solution, then it would have to be something universal, not for monks only.
A quick fix would be to give PCs a +1 heroic bonus to attack, damage, saves, AC,... on level 5 and raise it after every 5 levels. Magic item bonuses would then be weak +1, strong +2 and epic +3 (not really available till lvl 20).
As Shar Tahl pointed out in the other thread: magical items are masterwork by definition - even if they are mere rags they are special masterwork rags :PJust living up to the spirit of the thread. It is called "Getting Use Out of Ultimate Magic" you know.
In any case, I'm surprised that no one has even considered that maybe it wasn't ever meant to limit your wealth of items, but rather the number of items you carry. Only being able to carry six items, rather than the 14 that magic item slots normally allow IS a fairly big limiting factor and would be about on par with what you get in return.
You get to keep the BIG SIX while giving up everything else.
You get six items. You need the BIG SIX to stay afloat in the game. Nobody noticed this? Really?
If all your items are of cheap make (wood, bone, tin, whatever), then you have indeed followed the rules of the Vow. You still can't carry anything not your own worth more than 50gp and you still can't carry more than enough money needed to support yourself (modestly).
Considering all this, it's about in line with all the other vows.
FAQ this post if you agree, or even if you simply "want" to believe it's true.
Only weapons, armor, and shields have to be MW. Wondrous items, on the other hand (a monk's bread and butter), are free to be plain and simple.
That's a debate for the other thread, however.
Hey LoreKeeper, since no once else has really given any comments on your build, I'm going to give a few (even though I'm totally not qualified to).
Build is here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/gettingUseOutOfUltimateMagic&page=4#161
So here are the issues-
1. If have a level 6 Wizard in the party. He is blowing 1 or 2 of his highest spells per day on you (assuming he learns it for your sake).
2. If have a level 6 Sorcerer in the party. He only knows one 3rd level spell. It's probably not Greater Magic Weapon.
3. If you have a Witch, Summoner, Bard, or Magus as your primary arcane caster (or you don't have one)- none of them knows Greater Magic Weapon at this level (unless they are doing something really wonky).
4. Divine casters aren't getting this spell until at least 7th level.
5. Scrolls of 3rd level spells aren't cheap at this level if you plan on going through multiple a day. And a 3rd level wand would be a huge investment.
Then this isn't even to mention that barkskin is only lasting 1 hour per use. How are you using this resource? If you want to make sure it's always up- there goes ALL of your ki. If you only use it before battle, you are going to be caught quite a few times with your pants down, and either are spending your first round making sure you have passable defenses, or you just go in with a pitiful AC.
The Greater Magic Weapon issues don't apply much at this level and beyond. SOMEONE in your party likely knows it. They may be annoyed if they don't get many spells per day, and you always want this cast on them though (eg a Summoner).
But looking at your damage output, you are in a lot of trouble. With your attack routine, you are going to be doing roughly 23 points of damage around against foes with an AC of 24 (as per DPR Olympics thread). This is after you GMW buff. Your martial peers will be doing 3-4 times as much DPR before any buff. Compile this with the fact that you can't contribute to anything outside of fighting as well, things are looking rather horrible.
The biggest problems I have with these builds (aside from them still doing a pittance of damage, and nothing else) is that you are starting to include high cost items and extremely expensive consumables in your builds. By RAW, fine, there isn't any problem with this. But a few concerns do arise.
-People before had been saying that since the Monk has this vow (I think you were included), the rest of the party gets a buff because they get to split the Monk's would be loot. However, you are giving the Monk hundreds of thousands of gold in consumables and an uber item. How are you reconciling this? Does the rest of the party not get their babysitting money for taking care of the monk all those levels? Or are you just throwing a few extra hundred thousand items the monks way just to try to make him suck less? Or are you essentially letting the monk "buy" his gear via donation? IE, once he has donated 52,500 to charity he get's rewarded with a Manual?
And the biggest problem with the approach of letting the monk have an uber item and expensive consumables is that I could already play a Monk like this, just by re-fluffing his "purchasing" of gear. Seriously, I could quite easily play a base monk that lived without the luxuries of a normal life- having no possessions other than what he carried, eating simple foods, sleeping in humble rooms, and owning no land or wealth. He donates his share of the loot to some organization. In return they give him the tools he needs to slay monsters (based on how much he donated of course).
My character concept, and your character concept are almost identical. Instead of you having the one uber item, and expensive consumables, I have a few plain looking, but powerful items. But we live our lives mostly the same. Also, my character would be much more effective in combat and out. And I did this without any new rules, just some re-fluffing and roleplaying.
What people wanted was a way [i]not to be dependent on getting better and better items as you level up, and also not sucking.
Oh and far as a Vow of Poverty Monk being played at PFS, I would strongly consider leaving the table or playing a pregen. I know people have been saying this a lot lately. But honestly, playing a VoP Monk in PFS just seems discourteous. You are FORCED to leech off of other people's resources, and can't comp them in any way what soever. Courteous players purchase wands or scrolls of spells they often want cast on them, even if they can't cast it on themselves. With a VoP, you just can't do that. You can barely do any damage after getting buffs that won't always be available or active. And you can't do anything outside of combat. And you need other people to heal you. That's just totally lame. Please don't do it.
If you're vowing to live with naught but the rags on your back, shouldn't you get Survival as a class skill? Or is the idea that you get by on your own with little help, but you're not supposed to be good at doing so, either?
If your party is pumping the equivalent of thousands of gp worth of items into you via potions, scrolls and wands, I think it defeats the purpose of the vow almost to the degree of a Paladin letting his party do all the evil things so he won't have to.
Edit: These two thoughts are total non-sequitur, in case they seemed otherwise.
And... do they get superpowers?Well, if you choose to live like a beggar and ask the world to give you something in return, you'd probably get a good laugh in the first place.Maybe in America of the present day as well as most of Europe, you'd be right. But classically that's exactly how Buddhist monks in Asia are supposed to live.
You're right let's bring real life realism into D&D.
PS: Had you not moved your goalposts, that would've gone in. I call foul!
Damn. This is genuinely disheartening. :(BTW, Bulmahn murdered my monk character in yesterday's Weekly Grind session, so monk fans no longer have a "man on the inside," as it were.
It was beautiful while it lasted...
Disheartening, but not at all surprising. It was a monk, afetr all.
Snark aside, I've never witnessed a monk thrive in a D&D game. I'd like to see this, truly I would.
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Oh and far as a Vow of Poverty Monk being played at PFS, I would strongly consider leaving the table or playing a pregen. I know people have been saying this a lot lately. But honestly, playing a VoP Monk in PFS just seems discourteous. You are FORCED to leech off of other people's resources, and can't comp them in any way what soever. Courteous players purchase wands or scrolls of spells they often want cast on them, even if they can't cast it on themselves. With a VoP, you just can't do that. You can barely do any damage after getting buffs that won't always be available or active. And you can't do anything outside of combat. And you need other people to heal you. That's just totally lame. Please don't do it.
Hold a sec... with the vow you still get the money / loot share, don't you? You can buy things for the rest of the group in exchange for the buffs? And how come you can't do anything outside of the combat? Because the lack of stat boosters? I don't get this entirely.
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And how come you can't do anything outside of the combat? Because the lack of stat boosters? I don't get this entirely.
Likely based on an assumption that a VoP monk designed to function in PFS play is going to be min-maxed all to hell and thus be derpy in skills and social encounters.
Don't know if the assumption is justified or not. Don't do PFS.
If you're vowing to live with naught but the rags on your back, shouldn't you get Survival as a class skill? Or is the idea that you get by on your own with little help, but you're not supposed to be good at doing so, either?
If your party is pumping the equivalent of thousands of gp worth of items into you via potions, scrolls and wands, I think it defeats the purpose of the vow almost to the degree of a Paladin letting his party do all the evil things so he won't have to.
Edit: These two thoughts are total non-sequitur, in case they seemed otherwise.
The problem with the VoP IMO is that people think that by forsaking material the should get better at material. That counters itself and is nonsesnse. You don't get better at using the crews by forsaking the screwdriver. Normally by forsaking one thing you'd expect to get better at something else which is better in the other way. Forsaking material things should get you better at things spiritual. Current VoP is headed that way. The problem IMO is that it isn't enough and I guess that the problem comes from the assumption, that the monk will take more than just one vow. you'd get quite a few ki-points, but to make it worthwhile there would have to be additional ki point uses, like turning the attacks to touch and so on...
but to make it worthwhile there would have to be additional ki point uses, like turning the attacks to touch and so on...
Qiggong monk says hi.
Screw it! I'll go crazy
Vow of Celibacy
Vow of Chains
Vow of Fasting
Vow of Poverty
Vow of Truth
I'd be the best quigon monk evar :D
Damn. This is genuinely disheartening. :(BTW, Bulmahn murdered my monk character in yesterday's Weekly Grind session, so monk fans no longer have a "man on the inside," as it were.
It was beautiful while it lasted...
Disheartening, but not at all surprising. It was a monk, afetr all.
Snark aside, I've never witnessed a monk thrive in a D&D game. I'd like to see this, truly I would.
Had a monk in one of my games do insane amounts of damage... it was pretty crazy. My Paladin felt pretty bad whenever he turned on his Aura of Justice.
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The problem with the VoP IMO is that people think that by forsaking material the should get better at material. That counters itself and is nonsesnse. You don't get better at using the crews by forsaking the screwdriver. Normally by forsaking one thing you'd expect to get better at something else which is better in the other way. Forsaking material things should get you better at things spiritual.
Keep in mind that you're talking about a game where spiritual strength already manifests in the form of buffing spells, auras, and smites.
The notion of a monk's enlightenment and spiritual fortitude manifesting in the perfection of his physical shell, mind over matter, fits thematically and mechanically into such a setting, and is more evocative of our realworld legends and pop culture relating to the traditions that inspired the monk than enlightenment simply letting you throw another punch or spit poison.
but to make it worthwhile there would have to be additional ki point uses, like turning the attacks to touch and so on...Qiggong monk says hi.
Yes, but the Vows could have some built in addition to the granted ki points. And thus be if good use to any monk. Something like this:
Celibacy: 2 ki points - reroll a failed save vs. mind control effect.
Chains: 1 ki point - upon hitting an enemy it's speed is reduced by 10 ft untill the beginning of your next turn. You can spend any number of ki points on this effect.
Cleanliness: 2 ki points - Shield
Fasting: 1 ki point - survive 3 days without food, 1 day without water, 1 minute without breathing without suffering any ill effects.
Peace: 2 ki points - Calm Emotions
Poverty: 4 ki points - Antimagic Field for number of rounds equal to 1/2 your monk level.
Silence - 2 ki points - Silence
Truth - 3 ki points - Discern Lies
Mikaze: Yes and no. Limiting yourself in one area shouldn't get you better in the very same area. By taking the vow you distance yourself from something. The benefit needs to come from the other side. I wanted to represent that with what I wrote above. Either to give a bonus in the opposite area or to allow you to share the burden with the others.
What is the deal with Cleric spells that don't do anything if you don't have a Ki Pool class feature? Am I missing something, or is this actualy that stupid?
Perhaps the intended fix to the monk class is to multiclass cleric :P
What is the deal with Cleric spells that don't do anything if you don't have a Ki Pool class feature? Am I missing something, or is this actualy that stupid?
Maybe in preparation for a ki-using Cleric archetype? Or because they felt that divine spells were more appropriate for the qinggong monk? And it seems there is only one such spell, Ki Leech. Which is also sorcerer/wizard and witch.
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I could have sworn there were 4 or 5. I'll double check. Even if there is a a Ki Cleric, if it's not in this book, why have the spell(s) here?
There is a Monk archtype that can use spells, but it seems really odd to have a spell that only one (or two, Ninja?) can use, rather than just say it's that Monk's spell only.
For example, Blood Crow Strike. Almost awesome. But it's a Full Round Casting Time, that then requires either a Flurry of Blows or Unarmed Strike, and even the example uses a Monk? Why is this even a Cleric Only spell, (vs a Monk spell)?
Well, monk technically is not a caster. He casts the spell as a sp ability (which is detailed under quiggong archetype). Things like spell levels are there more or less important for magic item creation and spell v. spell interaction, right? They can't wrte the spell on monks spell list, because the monk does't havce any at all. If he had one it'd suddenky grant the ability to use wands and scrolls with the spells, including these, while now the monk still has to UMD them.
Or is there something else to it (no, no conspiration. I just can't claim total omniscience)?
Damn. This is genuinely disheartening. :(BTW, Bulmahn murdered my monk character in yesterday's Weekly Grind session, so monk fans no longer have a "man on the inside," as it were.
It was beautiful while it lasted...
Disheartening, but not at all surprising. It was a monk, afetr all.
Snark aside, I've never witnessed a monk thrive in a D&D game. I'd like to see this, truly I would.
I got a gnome monk that does pretty well.
Seriously.
No, I mean it.
I was the only person in the party that optimized anything.
Okay, now I know that sounds like I am being sarcastic, but I'm not.
He is really cool!
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because the monk does't have any at all.
Sorry, I didn't mean an actual Monk Spell, I mean more like an ability for the Monk. Why make this a Cleric spell when it is really only useful for the Monk? Even if there is a Ki based Cleric later.
I can understand some of the other spells listed, because they already exist, but new ones from the same book? I mean even the monk-like Cleri of Irori gets almost nothing from this spell, though it's right up their alley, thematically, (except Evil, which makes no sense, either, but that's another issue).
Alright. I got tired of everyone saying how sucky monks are and how non-optimisers simply can't enjoy playing a Vow of Poverty Monk. I never optimise. I simply don't enjoy the process. I instead come up with a character concept and make mechanical choices based on this. I once made an Elven Paladin because I thought the concept sounded really fun (and it was). I realise optimisers wouldn't enjoy playing an Elven Paladin, but I did.
As such, here is my Vow of Poverty monk. Read the background and Level 1 block and let me know if you think that's flavourful or not. Because it seems pretty damn flavourful to me.
Dwarven Monk (Ki Mystic, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) with the Vow of Poverty and Vow of Truth.
My understanding of the Vow of Poverty
You can have 1 simple outfit, 1 set of shoes OR 1 set of sandals, 1 bowl, 1 sack, 1 blanket, 1 item of some wealth.
Your 6th item can be a masterwork item if you so desire. This is the only item that can be enchanted as the rest cannot be masterwork.
Furthermore you can hold up to 50gp at one time as well as any consumables you can get your hands on (including potions, wands and scrolls).
As we all know, monks suck balls. They are the worst class evar! What's worse, I won't be buying any items whatsoever and I won't ask for my share of the loot. I will instead willingly allow the rest of you to divide my share. I also won't be asking for you to spend money to get spells cast on me permanently. I'm also not going to ask you to buy me wands, potions and scrolls of bull's strength or other good spells. I'm unable to do any of these things.
That said, if you want me to contribute to the party, I'll need you to do exactly that with my share of the loot. This is the only time I'll ask you to do that. And it is a completely out of character request. What spells I'll need, I will leave at your discretion.
I give the above warning to my players exactly once. At the start of the very first session. I then never mention it ever again.
This all came to a sudden end when years later a young woman broke into their home during dinner and attack Rogar. He was able to quickly fight her off, although he was unwilling to kill her with his children watching. She spat at Rogar and denounced him for a terrible monster. She told of the terrible monstrosities Rogar committed, how he personally killed her mother and father simply because they wouldn't give him all of their wealth. She spoke of the terrible hardships she faced as an orphan. Of the terrible things she was forced to do simply to survive.
His wife looked upon Rogar horrified. He tried to lie, but his voice caught and he simply broke down crying instead. His wife took the children that night and left. Rogar never saw them again.
Without his family, Rogar didn't know what to do. He quit his job and squandered his gold on booze, gambling and whores. He eventually returned to fighting, this time as a mere mercenary. While guarding a caravan through a mountain pass, they were attacked by a band of giants. Left for dead, Rogar was found by a monk from a nearby monastery. They brought him back to health, although he was forced to remain ther for the winter as the snow had blocked the pass by the time he was healthy enough to leave.
The monk who saved Rogar befriended him during the winter. Come spring Rogar was reluctant to leave, and so instead joined the monastery as a mere novice. Over the following years Rogar found a peace and eventually became a full fledged monk, which required him to swear a vow of poverty
Now in his dwindling years, Rogar was told to leave the monastery to try to atone for his past crimes. Rogar took on the mission wholeheartedly and made a vow to never lie until the day he died.
Rogar currently travels the world. To pay for food and find shelter, he offers his services as a hard labourer to farmers in return for a place to rest for the night and whatever food can fit in his bowl. He sometimes stays on these farms for weeks if they're particularly shorthanded and sometimes delivers letters to relatives for them. However in larger towns and cities Rogar offers his services to churches as a scribe in return for food and shelter. He rarely stays in any given church for more than a week. He hopes one day he might get to say goodbye to his children, although he has no idea where they live now.
Ability Scores
20 Point Buy
STR: 18 (+4)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 7 (-2)
WIS: 16 (+3)
CHA: 5 (-3)
HP
9
Defences and Saves
AC: 15 (get hit on a 13 or higher)
+4 to Fort
+4 to Reflex
+5 to Will
BAB
+0
Flurry of Blows
+3/+3 (hit on an 9 or higher)
Damage: 1d6+4 per hit
Feats
Improved Unarmed Strike
Dodge
Fight On
Traits
Dangerously Curious
Skills
3 Skill Points Per level:
- UMD - So that I can cast my own buffs on myself.
- Knowledge (Religion)
- Profession (scribe) - So I can fend for myself.
Speed
20 feet.
Dwarven Abilities
- Darkvision: 60 ft.
- Defensive Training: +4 dodge bonus against giants.
- Lorekeeper: +2 racial bonus to knowledge (history) on matters concerning dwarves.
- Hatred: +1 attack bonus against orcs and goblinoids.
- Hardy: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells and spell-like abilities.
- Relentless: +2 to CMD for bull rush and ovverrun.
- Stonecunning: +2 bonus on perception checks to notice stone traps or secret doors.
Supernatural Abilities
- Stunning Fist: 1 time a day
Items
- 1 Peasant's Outfit
- 1 set of shoes.
- 1 bowl.
- 1 sack.
- 1 blanket.
- 1 golden locket with a faded picture of his two children on one side and his wife on the other.
Now I noticed the DPR Olympics used the baseline of a level 10 character. So I'll post my level 10 version of my monk. However here my assumptions from previous levels:
- The majority of the share of my treasure should be going towards items that benefit me (such as Pearls of Power, Lesser Rods of Extend) and consumables I can use.
- After level 2 half my gold goes to Consumables, the other half to Items or Spellcasting Services.
- That the Wizard is casting Mage Armour on me at the beginning of each day. To help pay for this the Wizard should have purchased at least 1 Pearl of Power 1.
- Every level I need to purchase a new Wand of Cure Light Wounds cause I go through them THAT quickly. This is because I'm getting hit so often because of my poor AC.
- The Wizard has purchased a lesser rod of extend with my treasure, originally for Mage Armour.
- Around level 5 or so I got a Permanent Magic Fang.
- Around level 7 or so I got a Permanent Resistance.
- Around level 9 or so I got a Permanent Greater Magic Fang (this doesn't stack with Magic Fang and instead ovverrides it, wasting the earlier spellcasting).
Ability Scores
STR: 19 (+4)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 7 (-2)
WIS: 16 (+3)
CHA: 5 (-3)
HP
83
Defences and Saves
AC: 28 (get hit on a 10 or higher)
+10 Fort (make a save on 9 or higher)
+10 Reflex (make a save on 9 or higher)
+11 Will (make a save on 8 or higher)
BAB
+7/+2 (+10 for CMB)
Flurry of Blows
+13/+13/+8/+8 (hit on a 10 or higher)
Damage: 1d10+10
Feats
Improved Unarmed Strike
Fight On
Dodge
Scorpion Style
Toughness
Power Attack
Improved Grapple
Improved Trip
Weapon Focus
Ironhide
Medusa's Wrath
Traits
Dangerously Curious
Skills
3 Skill Points Per level:
- UMD 10 - So that I can cast my own buffs on myself.
- Perception 9
- Survival 9 - So I can fend for myself and track people.
- Knowledge (Religion) 1
- Profession (Scribe) 1
Speed
50 feet
Dwarven Abilities
- Darkvision: 60 ft.
- Defensive Training: +4 dodge bonus against giants.
- Lorekeeper: +2 racial bonus to knowledge (history) on matters concerning dwarves.
- Hatred: +1 attack bonus against orcs and goblinoids.
- Hardy: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells and spell-like abilities.
- Relentless: +2 to CMD for bull rush and ovverrun.
- Stonecunning: +2 bonus on perception checks to notice stone traps or secret doors.
Supernatural Abilities
- Stunning Fist: 10 time a day
- Ki Pool: 17 points
- Ki Mystic (1 point): +4 on an ability or skill check.
- Additional Attack (1 point): Can make 1 additional attack with flurry of blows.
- Extra Movement (1 point): Can move an extra 20 feet for 1 round.
- Dodge (1 point): Get +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
- Mystic Insight (2 points): An ally within 30 feet can reroll a save or attack roll.
- Iron Limb Defence (1 point): Shield bonus becomes +4.
- Wholeness of Body (2 points): I regain 8 HP.
- Adamantine Monk (2 points): I can double my DR for 1 round.
- Ki Strike: Unarmed attacks are considered magical and lawful for overcoming DR.
- Bastion Stance: If I don't move on my turn I cannot be knocked prone or forced to move for 1 round.
- Iron Limb Defence: If I don't move during my turn I gain a +2 shield bonus to AC and CMD for 1 round.
- Adamantine Monk: I have DR 1/-
Items (8,000 for this level)
- 0gp - Starting Items
- 750gp – Wand of Cure Light Wounds
- 4,500gp – Wand of Bull Strength
- 200gp – 4xPotion of Bull Strength
- 750gp – 1xPotion of Heroism
- 750gp – 1xWand of Enlarge Person
- 300gp – 6xPotions of Bull Enlarge Person
- 750gp – Wand of Shield of Faith (Not included above in AC).
- 8,000gp – 2xPearl of Power 2 (Barkskin 10 hours per day when used with Lesser Rod of Extend)
The Wands are for when I know I have time to buff. The potions are for if I don't have time or I've rolled a 1 on my wand. On average you'll face about 18 combats per level. That's 18 charges off my Bull Strength, Enlarge Person and Shield of Faith wands. Despite that, I've assumed I would need to purchase all of them this level
Now that said, how does it fare against another unoptimised character? Well my other Level 10 melee character is my Barbarian. So I'll use him.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Monk
I include the following buffs as I'm able to get them off fairly reliably without the aid of a wizard:
- Bull Strength (+1 damage, +1 hit)
- Enlarge Person (+1 damage, weapon becomes 2d8)
Flurry Attack: +14/+14/+9/+9; 2d8+12 damage per hit.
Flurry 1: 0.55(21)+(0.05*1*0.55*21) = 12.1275
Flurry 2: 0.55(21)+(0.05*1*0.55*21) = 12.1275
Flurry 3: 0.3(21)+(0.05*1*0.3*21) = 6.615
Flurry 4: 0.3(21)+(0.05*1*0.3*21) = 6.615
Total DPR 37.485
Barbarian
Flail Attack 1: +16; 1d8+17
Flail Attack 2: +11; 1d8+17
Claw Attack: +14; 1d6+17
Bite Attack: +9; 1d4+10
Flail 1: 0.65(21.5)+(0.05*1*0.65*21.5) = 14.67375
Flail 2: 0.4(21.5)+(0.05*1*0.4*21.5) = 9.03
Claw: 0.55(20.5)+(0.05*1*0.55*20.5) = 11.83875
Bite: 0.3(12.5)+(0.05*1*0.3*12.5) = 3.9375
TOTAL DPR 39.48
[EDIT]: Corrected starting ability score error and DPR math error.
Erm... how exactly did you obtain Str 19 as a 1st level DWARVEN monk? Was that intended to be Str 18?
D'oh! I gave myself plus 2 strength instead of plus 2 con. I also found an error in my DPR math.
New Level 10 scores:
STR 19 (+4)
DEX 14 (+2)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 7 (-2)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 5 (-3)
Putting 1 point into CON at 4th and then 1 point into STR at 8th reduces my Strength mod by 1 (reducing to hit and damage by 1).
Flurry Attack: +14/+14/+9/+9; 2d8+12 damage per hit.
Flurry 1: 0.55(21)+(0.05*1*0.55*21) = 12.1275
Flurry 2: 0.55(21)+(0.05*1*0.55*21) = 12.1275
Flurry 3: 0.3(21)+(0.05*1*0.3*21) = 6.615
Flurry 4: 0.3(21)+(0.05*1*0.3*21) = 6.615
Total DPR 37.485
Even with those corrections, this is only slightly worse then the Barbarian, and I've taken the Vow of Poverty.
Well, other than the fact that you had to make a 7 intelligence and 5 charisma character so that you could be comparable to another character that isn't built this way, I have to tell you that since a wand isn't consumed upon use you wouldn't be able to have a companion give you a wand to hold on to, another player would have to use it on you. Also, it was my understanding of the Vow's reading that when you are handed a potion you have to consume it immediately, not hang onto it until it's convenient to use.
Still, good to see that you can make it work if the entire party caters to the character. It doesn't help me build my concept of a wandering monk who donates his share of earnings and still contributes meaningfully due to his inner abilities rather than outside help, but this character may survive an AP with a decent sized party.
Well, other than the fact that you had to make a 7 intelligence and 5 charisma character so that you could be comparable to another character that isn't built this way
The other character is built with a 35 point buy system with no buy downs below 10. I've built the equivalent of a 28 point buy character, no buy down below 10. If I wanted to truly make the characters comparable I'd give my monk an additional 7 points. I'm not doing that, because there's no guarantee that I'll be given a 35 point buy when I get to one day play the monk.
What's more, my character concept for the barbarian requires him to be built a particular way. My character concept for my monk allows him to be built in a different way. Believe it or not, non-optimisers don't build all their characters in the optimal manner.
Also, it was my understanding of the Vow's reading that when you are handed a potion you have to consume it immediately, not hang onto it until it's convenient to use.
That is an interpretation. I'd be willing to talk with a DM about that.
Still, good to see that you can make it work if the entire party caters to the character.
The entire party caters the character? I've assumed:
1 WizardEither 1 druid OR 1 ranger OR 1 alchemist.
That is hardly the entire party built to cater to my character. Hell, remove 3 points of AC and I've now assumed a single wizard (OR sorcerer) that casts mage armour. You're right, that Wizard (OR sorcerer) has completely surrendered his entire spell-list to give me +4 to AC while also benefiting from it himself.
I can only conclude that some people here are determined to hate on the Vow of Poverty. To me, it has inspired and enabled me to create an interesting character that I otherwise would not have made. I am looking forward to playing my monk as I've statted him out. In my book, that's worth the 1 page it takes up in Ultimate Magic.
I get that, but for a piece of text that is roughly .06% of the book that might get used by 1%, I think we did ok.
Lets not get into micromanaging every content decision. Its just not productive and far too subject to taste.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingJason Bulmahn said this in response to someone on another thread claiming that the Vow of Poverty option was so underpowered that only about 1% of people who made monks would use the option.
I couldn't respond, as that thread has, since, been locked, so I'm responding now:
What a load of crap.
Jason, I adore your work. The Magus is fantastic, and words of power is (almost) everything I hoped it would be. I won't even make the claim that you designed this vow (actually, I would be hard-pressed to believe it, given your track record). I even consider Ultimate Magic to be a really good book (not APG caliber, but still good) with a LOT to offer, but really?
Claiming that, since it only takes up .06% of the book, and 1% of people will use it, that makes it a win is total garbage. Imagine, if you will, that you didn't include vow of poverty, and instead included...say...Jolt, one of the cantrips that were meant to be in this book but got cut for...some reason. What percentage of people do you think would be using a brand-spanking-new electric cantrip? I'm betting a helluva lot more than 1%.
We could take this further. What if we got rid of the god-awful Dragon Shaman archetype (seriously, that thing needs a thread all its own to rant about) and included another cantrip that got cut...penumbra, maybe. Or how about vitriol? How many people would use those? A lot more than those who are going to choose to play a poorly designed lizard druid that happens to sometimes get wings.
You claim that we shouldn't micromanage every content decision in the book. But what about the bad ones?
Sorry, but I needed to rant, and the fact that likely fun, interesting spells got cut while...
I didn't read "this is a win" into Buhlman's post. No idea how you got that. I read it as more of a "We're not perfect. Because Vow of Poverty isn't great doesn't mean the entire book is bad."
I agree with Buhlman.
Not everything in every book is meant to maximize player power. I might use Vow of Poverty if I want to simulate a poor monk traveling about truly giving up worldly possessions for his beliefs.
And acting as though this is somehow unusual is pretty ridiculous. There are a ton of feats that will never see use in most campaigns. Are we really supposed to raise hell over every feat that isn't designed to maximize player power?
Sounds to me like someone is mad that Vow of Poverty isn't as powerful as the Vow of Poverty in the old Book of Exalted Deeds.
Now I'll admit I don't like a Lizard Shaman being called a Dragon Shaman. Dragon is supposed to evoke draconic power and the UM Dragon Shaman does nothing of the kind. But it doesn't kill the book. Doubtful they were ever going to make a Dragon Shaman where you get a real dragon as an animal companion, though that would have been a whole lot cooler even if it was a young dragon.
None of the books have been perfect. Most of the rogue archetypes in the APG are never going to see use in any of my campaigns. I think many of them were poorly designed, especially removing trapfinding for abilities that don't make up for that loss since it is pretty much the only reason anyone plays a rogue in any of the campaigns my friends I run. I certainly didn't come on here and claim the APG was a poor book because of it.
Damn. This is genuinely disheartening. :(BTW, Bulmahn murdered my monk character in yesterday's Weekly Grind session, so monk fans no longer have a "man on the inside," as it were.
It was beautiful while it lasted...
Disheartening, but not at all surprising. It was a monk, afetr all.
Snark aside, I've never witnessed a monk thrive in a D&D game. I'd like to see this, truly I would.
I've seen two monks thrive. One a Zen Archer monk and one a Monk of the Sacred Mountain. They don't do comparable damage to fighter types, but they are effective. And they stand up to spellcasting a whole lot better than the fighter types.
Then again we don't do 15 point point buy. That may be the reason.
but to make it worthwhile there would have to be additional ki point uses, like turning the attacks to touch and so on...Qiggong monk says hi.
Hilarious.
10 more ki points for a Qiggong monk. Vow of Poverty perfect for that type of monk.
but to make it worthwhile there would have to be additional ki point uses, like turning the attacks to touch and so on...Qiggong monk says hi.Hilarious.
10 more ki points for a Qiggong monk. Vow of Poverty perfect for that type of monk.
10 more points at lvl 20. More like 4-6 at usual play levels... oooh, if I use barkskin to make up for my lack of Amulet of Natural Armour i every one of those four encounters we have I'm whopping two points above regular monk and I'm still at disadvantage.
I don't know, but the monk might be just better off without this vow as well. Sure that this archetype gets way better use of the ki points but that one item still can't make up for stat boost, magic weapons and magic defense items that can be gained from the items. You still need the buff from the group, because your ki doesn't provide nearly enough of that and doesn't provide any other way around either. That is the problem most people criticising the VoP see.
I think we should raise hell about a mechanical option which is cripplingly handicapping. I think we should raise hell about mechanical options that are brokenly powerful. That's called constructive criticism, and it's how people are able to learn from their mistakes.
"Don't like, don't use?" That's inane. The reason I dislike it is because I think the design philosophy that would inspire something like this is fundamentally flawed, and I want those flaws aired, so they can be avoided in the future, if not fixed in the present. If I find rotten produce at the grocery store, I'm not going to settle for not buying it--I'm going to tell people that it's rotten.
And I absolutely think 100% balance is not too much to ask for as the goal. I know that it won't be achieved, because nobody's perfect. But striving to maximize balance is a good goal.
I thought that pointing at what's wrong and proposing a solution is called constructive criticism ;)
...monk build...
A couple of things. First, you state right off the bat that you will only tell the other party members that you suck and need their help not to suck the first session. You promise you won't nag them constantly about what spells you need, or ask them to buy things for you. But then you assume a build that get's you everything you need at pretty much exactly the right time. Not totally believable. Also, when people play a VoP monk, they want to be less dependable on money. That does not mean "I get my full share of the loot, just that you guys got to be the one to spend it on me."
Second, you are counting on for sure having Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person. But these are pretty short duration buffs- especially since you are using a wand to cast them (min caster level- so only 1 minute for Enlarge Person). Coupled with the fact that you can't actually CARRY any of this stuff, what are you going to do when a battle breaks out that you weren't exactly prepared for (ie at least 50% of the time)? Is the 10th level Wizard using his first two actions of combat to lay down some mediocre buffs on you? Because that is the path that leads to TPK.
Third, even if we assume super optimization of the monk, that the VoP monk spends all of his wealth on himself (via the party), and that he actually can get all these buffs laid down and active on him- he's still not as good at melee as another unoptimized, unbuffed melee character with some gear. Seriously, if we are assuming wizards in the party, why can't the unoptimized Barbarian get a buff or two? If that happens, even the unoptimized Barbarian is going to run away with the DPR.
Fourth, you've created a character that is going to be pretty damn useless outside of battle. 5 Charisma and 7 Intelligence? A complete social retard. Really?
Well, other than the fact that you had to make a 7 intelligence and 5 charisma character so that you could be comparable to another character that isn't built this wayThe other character is built with a 35 point buy system with no buy downs below 10. I've built the equivalent of a 28 point buy character, no buy down below 10. If I wanted to truly make the characters comparable I'd give my monk an additional 7 points. I'm not doing that, because there's no guarantee that I'll be given a 35 point buy when I get to one day play the monk.
What's more, my character concept for the barbarian requires him to be built a particular way. My character concept for my monk allows him to be built in a different way. Believe it or not, non-optimisers don't build all their characters in the optimal manner.
Well you brought up the Barbarian without showing us anything so I had no idea you built your barbarian with beyond epic stats allowed. Still, my original point of needing the monk to be at the very lowest possible playable level for Intelligence and Charisma just to be comparable should say something about this vow. Everyone was happy to pile on people who said that the mechanics of this vow are terrible by telling us we're all optimizers ignoring the value for role play in this vow, so to see an example of how to make a survivable vow of poverty character have stats as min/maxed as possible has me scratching my head.
Also, it was my understanding of the Vow's reading that when you are handed a potion you have to consume it immediately, not hang onto it until it's convenient to use.That is an interpretation. I'd be willing to talk with a DM about that.
Well the actual text for consumables in vow of poverty reads, "He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures." which could be read a few ways. It could be read that he can accept as many of them as are offered to him, thousands of gp worth even, and carry them as needed, which is silly in my opinion since he can't carry more than 50gp in wealth at once, but the wording isn't that clear so you could interpret it that way. On the other hand, a draconian reading of the rules could be that the monk can only accept items similar to curative potions, or only consumables that cure hit points. That is going too far the other way in my opinion but it is possible. I think the "borrow" part effectively nixes taking wands from others and self buffing though, since a wand is worth more than 50gp.
Still, good to see that you can make it work if the entire party caters to the character.The entire party caters the character? I've assumed:
1 Wizard
Either 1 druid OR 1 ranger OR 1 alchemist.That is hardly the entire party built to cater to my character. Hell, remove 3 points of AC and I've now assumed a single wizard (OR sorcerer) that casts mage armour. You're right, that Wizard (OR sorcerer) has completely surrendered his entire spell-list to give me +4 to AC while also benefiting from it himself.
I was thinking more how each time you entered combat you'd need someone to hand you one of the potions your character would regularly drink, or use the wands you need to survive. Bull Strength and Enlarge person don't last long enough to keep up all day(5 minutes and 1 minute respectively for a wand, 10 minutes each if cast by a 10th level character), and without them you struggle quite a bit more to get a hit in. Mage Armor is fine, a caster at 10th level shouldn't mind spending a slot on that. The Lesser Metamagic Rod doesn't help in my games where metamagic rods aren't available but it is a legitimate option for a 10th level caster to have so Barkskin is fine. Doubling it still won't last the whole day though. Barkskin at 10 mins/level with extend is still 'just' 3 hours and 20 minutes if cast by a 10th level druid, less time and protection if used as a potion or wand or cast by a Ranger. Perfect for putting on before entering a dungeon, less good for travel heavy APs like Kingmaker.
The reason I say the party is catering to you is because your monk either has to know a fight is going to happen in less than a minute or you'll need 2 characters to spend their first actions casting spells on you alone before getting into the regular spellcasting they would be doing to help the entire party, cast out of wands they had to purchase. Also, I'm missing something on how you got a 28 AC since I've added it up to 26(10+1 dodge, +2 dex, +1 Ironskin, +2 Monk AC, +3 wis, +4 Mage Armor, +4 for a 10th Caster Level Barkskin(overcomes the +1 Ironskin), I'm going to assume the mistake is on my end though for that.
I can only conclude that some people here are determined to hate on the Vow of Poverty. To me, it has inspired and enabled me to create an interesting character that I otherwise would not have made. I am looking forward to playing my monk as I've statted him out. In my book, that's worth the 1 page it takes up in Ultimate Magic.
And I'm happy that you can make a monk you'll enjoy playing with it, truly I am. And if he survives and thrives in an AP without the DM modifying it that'll be awesome and it should be a fun character concept. Some of us though, like me, just like the monk concept of the unarmed, traveling ascetic who can donate his share of the treasure to the needy without having to have a retainer with a brace of potions and wands to buff up with every few minutes or a party of people around him who will take up the slack during ambushes, nighttime raids, and other times he'll just not be able to match their level of intensity. Anyways, my last post was unnecessarily snappy and I'm sorry for it, it's just that Pathfinder has done such amazing work and my hopes for an elegant way to play a monk who doesn't need to rely on magic and material possessions went through the roof when I saw "vow of poverty" only to come crashing down to earth after reading the actual vow.
I thought that pointing at what's wrong and proposing a solution is called constructive criticism ;)
We're in agreement then, and that's what the complainers have done. We don't always have a fully formed and complete solution to hand, because, after all, we're not award-winning designers publishing a professional rulebook. But as far as I have seen, the vast majority of those on my side of the argument, if not all of them, have explained precisely what flaws they see in the mechanics they complain about, why they see those as flaws, and generally trying to suggest ideas of how improvements could be made. And in response, we get told that we should shut up and just pretend the feat isn't there, or that we're only complaining because we "don't roleplay."
"Fourth, you've created a character that is going to be pretty damn useless outside of battle. 5 Charisma and 7 Intelligence? A complete social retard. Really?" --Merkatz
I'm trying to stay out of this VoP Monk side of the topic, but this quote caught my attention.
I do see what you are pointing out Merkatz, and am not saying your point isn't valid. I will say this though. We all know one person that are just that are just that...socially underdeveloped/lacking in all social ability. And some do make it into positions that they shouldn't have been allowed to.
Just saying they are out there, and there are folks that like to play that type of character.
Damn. This is genuinely disheartening. :(BTW, Bulmahn murdered my monk character in yesterday's Weekly Grind session, so monk fans no longer have a "man on the inside," as it were.
It was beautiful while it lasted...
Disheartening, but not at all surprising. It was a monk, afetr all.
Snark aside, I've never witnessed a monk thrive in a D&D game. I'd like to see this, truly I would.
I've seen two monks thrive. One a Zen Archer monk and one a Monk of the Sacred Mountain. They don't do comparable damage to fighter types, but they are effective. And they stand up to spellcasting a whole lot better than the fighter types.
Then again we don't do 15 point point buy. That may be the reason.
We are playing with a monk, sorcerer, druid and a fighter, and the monk is doing just fine. He has good saves, fast movement, deflect arrows, evasion, ki points, stunning fists and bonus feats. He has more HP than my fighter, he is rather stealthy, has good perception and initiative, and hits like a truck (he's strength based). He takes less damage from falling and now at 5th level he is also immune to disease.
I dont' know how good he will be at higher levels, but so far so good. He actually contributes to the party more than the fighter.Granted, he got lucky with his rolls (we don't use point buy, but rolled for our stats instead).
Regarding VoP, I'm sorry but I fail to understand why a gearless character should be as powerful as characters with powerful magic items. If it was the case, then everybody would take this vow because you'll have much less to worry about, you just level up.
Gear, loot, and magic items are a good portion of this game. This vow should never have existed in the first place.
Also, why so much stuff about monks in a book devoted to magic?
Because the archetype the monk is based on in the first place is an ascetic warrior, who,by forsaking the material, gains spiritual strength and control over his own body such that he is a formidable force in combat. Because, by printing such a mechanic, they wrote a check for a viable gearless ascetic that simply could not be cashed.
I agree with you in one respect: if the designers believe that allowing a monk to be gearless while maintaining the effectiveness of a full-WBL character, or near to it, is contrary to principles of the game, than they should have declined to print VoP at all, rather than deliberately making it bad.
I thought that pointing at what's wrong and proposing a solution is called constructive criticism ;)We're in agreement then, and that's what the complainers have done. We don't always have a fully formed and complete solution to hand, because, after all, we're not award-winning designers publishing a professional rulebook. But as far as I have seen, the vast majority of those on my side of the argument, if not all of them, have explained precisely what flaws they see in the mechanics they complain about, why they see those as flaws, and generally trying to suggest ideas of how improvements could be made. And in response, we get told that we should shut up and just pretend the feat isn't there, or that we're only complaining because we "don't roleplay."
Not exactly. A lot of the solutioins go against the spirit of the vows. By dropping something you can't expect to get the thing in the same form to come right back to you. That's not how it should work IMO. With this logic the fighters could demand iron skins on them for walking around in underwear, because they have forsaken the full plate.
There are two basic solutions for VoP (In my previous posts I was musing about the first). To offer a compensation (where I am for the sake of my own sanity crusaded for the VoP not giving the very same basic benefits it chose to drop, it should really offer something more spiritual, not worldly bonuses), or there is a second way - lowering the strict limitations somewhat.
I wonder whether making a permanent body echantment wouldn't make up for that somewhat. They can't merely dispelled, like the spells, but they are just suppressed instead and occupy an item slot. Cost would be tripple that of the usual item and if another item is placed in that slot it completely replaces the enchantment is removed. The ritual wouldn't be considered to be a material posession, wouldn't be removeable by mundane means or transferable anyhow, but otherwise behave just like items appropriate for the slot.
But these are pretty short duration buffs- especially since you are using a wand to cast them (min caster level- so only 1 minute for Enlarge Person).
It's a second level spell. Minimum caster level is 3rd level.
Is the 10th level Wizard using his first two actions of combat to lay down some mediocre buffs on you? Because that is the path that leads to TPK.
Hence UMD to give them to me myself.
Seriously, if we are assuming wizards in the party, why can't the unoptimized Barbarian get a buff or two?
Sure. Barbarian can get Mage Armour, because that's the only buff I'm expecting off the Wizard.
Third, even if we assume super optimization of the monk,
I'm not an optimiser. I'm sure an actual optimiser could produce something better.
he's still not as good at melee as another unoptimized, unbuffed melee character with some gear.
I think he is comparable to the barbarian I posted. Now is that barbarian optimised? No. But that's the point. This isn't about making a VoP that's optimised. It's about making a VoP that's playable. Everyone here CLAIMED they didn't want to play a VoP monk because it wasn't playable. This character is about exploring how true that is.
Fourth, you've created a character that is going to be pretty damn useless outside of battle.
I get 3 skill points. I quite carefully chose Perception and Survival as two skills I've put most of my ranks into. So yes, he can actually contribute to the party outside of combat. A cleric with Int 7 is going to be in the exact same boat.
5 Charisma and 7 Intelligence? A complete social retard. Really?
Roleplayers get told to stop assuming facts based on poor stats and not to punish the optimisers. The second a roleplayer does the exact same thing, suddenly our character becomes a social retard?
He's an old man, whose probably smelly (he works with his hands half the time and doesn't even own a bar of soap. Seriously, it's not in his listed 6 items he's allowed to have). He doesn't own a shaving kit so he's got an unkempt beard and hair that's been cut off with a dagger when he manages to get a hold of one. There is your charisma 5.
As for his intelligence, he's a soldier who killed and looted his way into a small fortune. He then lived off his ill gotten gains before becoming a monk, at which point he lived in the middle of nowhere contemplating the meaning of life, the universe and everything in it.
Still, my original point of needing the monk to be at the very lowest possible playable level for Intelligence and Charisma just to be comparable should say something about this vow.
No. Roleplayers realise that not all characters are created equal. You create a character concept, and then you build for that concept. I've played my share of Dark Sun Half-Giants (now there's a social retard if ever there was one). I've played my share of evil nobles who use nothing but their wits (seriously. I've played characters that never entered combat once. Not ever. Obviously it wasn't D&D, but it was a roleplaying game). Different character concepts require different stats.
so to see an example of how to make a survivable vow of poverty character have stats as min/maxed as possible has me scratching my head.
How come optimisers are allowed to min/max for no reason but they want to make the most powerful character possible. When I can't min/max in order to make a character that fits a particular concept because it's interesting from a roleplaying perspective? That doesn't seem fair.
Also, I'm missing something on how you got a 28 AC since I've added it up to 26(10+1 dodge, +2 dex, +1 Ironskin, +2 Monk AC, +3 wis, +4 Mage Armor, +4 for a 10th Caster Level Barkskin(overcomes the +1 Ironskin), I'm going to assume the mistake is on my end though for that.
Don't need to assume. Ironskin is a natural armor bonus whereas Barkskin is a natural armor enhancement bonus. What's more, my character is built around standing in the same spot (hence why I've got Scorpion Strike) and will, at most times, get a +2 for not moving (as part of Iron Limb Defence). I think most characters are built around that assumption, otherwise fighters don't get their full round action to get all of their iteratives into play.
Barkskin at 10 mins/level with extend is still 'just' 3 hours and 20 minutes if cast by a 10th level druid
You're overlooking the two Pearl of Power 2 that were purchased at level 10. The initial casting, plus the Pearls equals 10 hours. But as was rightly pointed out, I shouldn't assume both a druid and a wizard.
Some of us though, like me, just like the monk concept of the unarmed, traveling ascetic who can donate his share of the treasure to the needy without having to have a retainer with a brace of potions and wands to buff up with every few minutes
Exaggerating much? He has two wands on him (Enlarge Person, Bull Strength) and for times when it's really urgent, he has two potions as well (one per spell). I was buying multiples to signify how the party would be spending HIS SHARE of the loot to keep him comparable with a fully decked out character. He has a total of 4 consumables on him at any given time.
or a party of people around him who will take up the slack during ambushes, nighttime raids, and other times he'll just not be able to match their level of intensity.
He's still more useful then a Wizard whose out of spells and has better defences then a fighter who was asleep in his small clothes.