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I asked this question in the Vow of Poverty thread, but that thread got shut down before anyone could answer my question. So, I will ask it here.
The second introductory paragraph in the monk section states, "This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
Monks aren't the only ki-users any more. The internal alchemist archetype can take the extra ki feat and the ninja in the Ultimate Combat playtest uses ki. If they can take a vow, then what do they exchange for the right to do so? I only ask since the monk - THE primary ki-user in the game - has to trade out an ability to gain vows. They shouldn't get vows for free if the monk doesn't.
I also ask because in my games, I have seen a couple of the other players multi-class more often than you would expect in Pathfinder and they did it with monk, too. I can definitely see this coming up in the future if one of our players should multiclass with monk and take vows. I think the answer to that is pretty clear, but I raise the issue in case there is an aspect to it that I have not considered.
Personally, I feel vows should be "monk only", but it would be nice to hear an official answer.
You need the still mind feature to trade in for vows.
You need the still mind feature to trade in for vows.
Ummm... did you even read my post or just the title of the thread?
The point is: Those other classes don't have the ability to trade out, so they can't take vows even if the book says the option is available.
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Still Mind is not required to take a vow. The text states that a monk never gets Still Mind if he takes a vow. Not that he must trade Still Mind to take a vow. Which is funny, since that suggests he should take the vow before getting Still Mind, which means he must take it before he gets a ki pool, and cannot benefit from the vow.
I think it was already pointed out in the VoP thread by a dev that Still Mind must be swapped out to take vows (though I agree that the wording made me think the same thing as you). So, other users of ki cannot take vows (at least not in the game mechanic sense).
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I see where it is stated you cannot take monk archetypes that swap out Still Mind, as you no longer have it to swap. However, it does not state you must be a monk to take the vows other than referencing the monk class in the description. If the phrase 'any ki user can take' was not there i would agree they are monk only, but the text is conflicting on the subject. As it is, a ninja can take a monk vow, with the only caveat being that if he ever multiclasses monk, he will never gain Still Mind.
How about we add an option that lets a fighter trade his 3rd level fighter spells for an extra feat?
It's a bit silly to tell someone they have an option they can't take.
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"A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows." (emphasis mine)
Based upon this wording it seems clear to me that other ki users can take Vows without penalty or prejudice; the above sentence only applies to monks.
Additionally, it does not say "The taking of a vow replaces the still mind class feature." It makes it clear that by taking a Vow, if you have levels of monk, you never receive the still mind class feature.
My question on this should be simple: If a character takes the Ki Mystic archetype, which replaces the still mind class feature, can they still take Vows? Of all the existing archetypes, the Ki Mystic seems an excellent candidate (by flavor) to take Vows; does this mean they are prohibited from doing so because the still mind class feature has already been replaced? What if they take the vow before 3rd level, can they not progress in the archetype? Or do they simply not gain the Ki Mystic replacement ability (which is central to the archetype)?
Or alternatively, does this mean they can take Vows just as can any other user of ki, and since they've already negated their ability to take still mind (via archetype) negating their ability to take it again (via Vows) can be done without concern?
An example of this in the existing rules is as follows: A Paladin's code sets down requirements that the Paladin must abide by in order to maintain his class abilities. They are in effect penalties traded for more powerful abilities. Likewise, an Order of the Sword Cavalier's Edict does the same thing. Since both the Paladin Code and Order of the Sword Cavalier's Edicts requires him to Act with Honor does this mean that the character with levels in Paladin who multiclasses into Cavalier simply cannot choose Order of the Sword because his requirement to Act with Honor has already been required by another class?
Regardless, we can all agree that the wording is very poor, since the initial sentence claims that:
"This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
The devs seem to have put themselves in the uncomfortable position of answering the following question:
In this gamers opinion, it might be a wise decision to simply delete the line about 'never gaining the still mind class feature' from the rules entirely, thereby keeping everything in balance and avoiding answering the lose-lose scenario question above.
The way they wrote it makes it tricky. If it were me, I'd probably make vows monk only, but if a player was insistent and had a compelling reason for wanting to take a vow, at the very least it would cost a discovery, ninja trick, or something similar.
Yeah I would also love an official answer to this one, there has been at least one other thread about it, and still no real consensus on the weird details.
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I'd allow any class with a Ki Pool to take the vows. Monks don't gain the ability to learn Still Mind, alright. No other class/archetype loses anything by taking a vow, alright. I don't see a problem with this because of one simple reason.
Other classes are built differently than Monks. Vows with a Monk are better than taking a Vow with a Ninja, so to even the playing field, Monks lose Still Mind.
Both classes will use their Ki Pool differently (Smoke Bombs for Ninjas, for example), and generally play differently.
Paizo wouldn't have said "All classes that have Ki Pools can take Vows", than not have Vows do anything for other classes. That's the only slip up I see here.